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Apple has stopped providing standalone installers for macOS updates

289 points by mrzool 6y ago

oarsinsync 6y ago
“Apple continues the war on its own users...” Edit: apologies for the unsubstantive comment
- Bombthecat 6y ago
  Its probably to prevent hackintoshs..
  - drak0n1c 6y ago
    Or to avoid extra vulnerabilities like the past 3rd party Xcode downloads, or the current SolarWinds debacle.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    This has zero effect on Hackintosh... as others have pointed out, you can still get the full OS installers (as a free download!) by looking in the sucatalog.
- dang 6y ago
  Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
nbzso 6y ago
So how it feels now, Mr. Apple apologist? Joke aside, I really hope Apple Developers to wake up and move away to other platforms. Apple is lost his touch and the only vision is summarised with one word: Control.
dataking 6y ago
That doesn't sound like good news for the hackintosh community.
- nuker 6y ago
  When I had one, updates via System Prefs worked just as fine.
- nbzso 6y ago
  That doesn't sound like good news at all. I have a habit to archive my system updates in case of network failure or other non connected scenario. In my mind this is mandatory. Good thing is that I have stored everything Catalina related and plan not to update any of my current computers with next version of Apple software. On other hand I am profoundly thankful for this reality. Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare. Thankfully the Little Snitch and VPN fiasco was the final point for me and migration to Debian/KDE is flawless.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Yes I can, when I started coding my first computer was a Timex 2068. Apple was always been like that, they just used their newly NeXTSTEP based OS to sell themselves to the UNIX crowd as a question of survival. Copland didn't had anything UNIX related, and BeOS just had some kind of minimal POSIX support, as it wasn't their goal to be a UNIX clone anyway. Copland having been a success, or going BeOS instead, are two possible not taken paths that would have given a very different outcome.
    - nbzso 6y ago
      Thanks for the Geek trip.:)) Timex 2068 is cool.
- galad87 6y ago
  Why? The full installer is available, and Hackintosh users can use Software Update too.
- throw14082020 6y ago
  I'm running a Hackintosh 11.0.1 installed fresh, this is not a problem.
joombaga 6y ago
softwareupdate can download updates without installing them. Does anyone know if they can be extracted?
rgovostes 6y ago
I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. Software updates delivered through the automatic updater are listed in an XML catalog file that anyone can parse to get the URL where the actual update package is hosted. The packages usually use the platform standard .pkg installer format. (Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.) Apple still provides the `softwareupdate` command line tool to list, download, and apply updates and even whole OS installers of the last 4 years of releases. The OS installers contain tools that can produce bootable install media if you want to archive them. Apple has also provided tools to mirror software updates on your own infrastructure---see the "Content Caching" option in the Sharing prefpane, for example. Not sure what the state of this is today. I think the linked article makes good arguments for why it may be premature to discontinue the standalone updates. And I am critical of how difficult it is to obtain OS installers for older hardware and VMs. But it's not the end of macOS as a developer platform.
- Lev1a 6y ago
  > Apple further locking down the platform > they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded Isn't that synonymous?
  - vmception 6y ago
    This is hilarious. They remind me of a politician.
    - Waterluvian 6y ago
      It's just a temporary refund adjustment.
  - ossusermivami 6y ago
    Hahah exactly, like Apple don't have the resources to support multiple installs and have to sacrifice one method in the name of stability.....
myrandomcomment 6y ago
Confused. Just run software update, and when the install starts, exit it. Look in the /Applications folder and the installer is there. Run: sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Big\ Sur.app/Contents/Resources/createinstallmedia --volume /Volumes/MyVolume Here is the support link: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372 I just did it and it works just fine. UPDATE - I missed the fact it was the point release updates for some reason. Sorry. Leaving post as it is helpful for those that want to make a boot USB.
- smarx007 6y ago
  If you look at the article, the complaint was about point release deltas not being offered any more, e.g. 11.0->11.1. TBH, I didn't even know Apple provided them for download in the first place.
  - myrandomcomment 6y ago
    Thanks, for some reason that did not register.
    - ehutch79 6y ago
      It didn't for me either. He keeps talking about standalone installers. Not clear he's actually talking about delta updates?
- w0de 6y ago
  `softwareupdate --fetch-full-installer` is slightly more elegant!
safetyengineer 6y ago
Stop giving Apple money. Stop developing for them. They are the bullies on the block. I refuse work for military contractors. Outwardly monopolistic companies that gaslight their customers in advertisements is bad capitalism.
peterburkimsher 6y ago
I used the Catalina point-release updaters on Tuesday! I needed to run Migration Assistant to copy files from a Mac Mini with 10.15.7 to another Mac Mini, originally with 10.11. Time Machine couldn't restore. The APFS drive wouldn't mount. Carbon Copy Cloner couldn't clone the drive either. I started to dd, but realised it wouldn't update the BootROM. I made a Catalina installer with createinstallmedia, to install 10.15. Migration Assistant still failed to copy over the keychain, because I'd installed 10.15.3 or something on the destination, instead of 10.15.7 (the source Mac Mini). Most files worked, but without the keychain, many passwords and software licence keys weren't available. I needed the standalone updaters to make both computer run 10.15.7, so I could run Migration Assistant and get the files over (finally!) It would be a big problem if Apple stop making these available.
- abrowne 6y ago
  Honest question: how's that different from running Software Update from the 10.15.3 install to get to 10.15.7? (Other than working offline once you have the update downloaded, that is.)
  - peterburkimsher 6y ago
    Working offline is actually quite important. The download size is over 4 GB for the combo updater, even just for a point release. In this case, the Internet connection was fast enough, but in many places in the world it would take hours longer to download that (10 MBps at my parents' house, 250 KBps in Kiribati where I travelled last year). It's also good to not need to connect to the App Store, with all the 2FA involved. That would associate my Apple account with that computer, and save my password in the keychain. (Yes, I know I can delete it, but I want to leave the migration running overnight and just tell the user to reboot when it's done).
    - tmd83 6y ago
      I have had low bandwidth for most of my life and apple update has been a pain for the huge size of even point update. I actually haven't used offline download. My biggest pain point was that the downloader portion of the updater is so low quality. It corrupts downloads or restarts with tiny network blips, can't resume most of the time and often much slower to download than available bandwidth (that might a bad routing issue on my country). Overall it's often a painful experience.
pibefision 6y ago
https://github.com/corpnewt/gibMacOS https://github.com/corpnewt/gibMacOS solves this problem.
- post_break 6y ago
  Small world, corp actually helped me with my hackintosh.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ehutch79 6y ago
The article isn't clear that he's talking about delta updates from one version to the next.
mehrdada 6y ago
The ARM releases of macOS are really similar to iOS and you can get ipsw files and update via USB (from another machine).
musicale 6y ago
If this is true, it's very annoying. There was nothing wrong with the existing system of standalone installers.
- sjwright 6y ago
  You can still download full installers for any version. And you can still perform incremental updates live via software update. The only thing no longer available are downloadable delta updates.
  - WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
    1) how do I update to x.3 if the latest is x.6? 2) do you think we all have free broadband growing on them trees?
    - sjwright 6y ago
      1) With the full installer for x.3 2) I agree Apple's decision is stupid.
tyingq 6y ago
I imagine this makes testing your application against various OS releases super fun.
- SulphurCrested 6y ago
  Surely you should only be testing against major releases: that is, only the most-recent point release for each major release. So, for example, Big Sur is at 11.1, so test against 11.1 but not 11.0. No user should be running 11.0 any more, as it has unpatched exploits. Similarly, every Catalina machine should be running 10.15.7 + the Supplemental Update from a couple of days ago, and every Mojave machine 10.14.6 + the relevant security updates. Now, users or administrators may have valid reasons to sit on a point release for a few days, for example to schedule it when it's less disruptive, or to wait to see whether there it has caused problems as a recent Mojave one did. (But not for much longer, because the act of releasing an update gives black hats something to look at, and Apple themselves usually publish details of the exploits a couple of days after the release that closes them, to give people time to update.) The thing is, they are also not going to install your new software in that window either; almost the only people running your software on other than the latest point release are people who already installed an older version of it, that you tested when that point release was current. Most normal people will either let your app and the OS auto-update on their own schedule, or manually update both at the same time. This all reduces the problem to having available copies of the last few major versions. You can't go back all that many versions because Apple's Xcode development suite stops supporting them, and you don't want to because the APIs change. It's a very different philosophy from the Windows "test against everything", but it's self-consistent, and is not unique to Apple operating systems.
amatecha 6y ago
One more step towards making a unified OS for both desktop and mobile. There hasn't been a single MacOS update that hasn't inched ever closer to this obvious eventual goal. One day you won't access actual files, they will be some abstract thing that can only be accessed via authenticated APIs. No "Apple account" -> no ability to use your device.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  People I know who use Apple products wouldn't care. They want things to "just work" and to get their tasks done. If that's within some restrictive paid app they don't care, Apple device owners aren't penny pinchers. Seriously,who are the Apple users that are shocked by more and more locking down, less repairability, fewer ports and cross-brand compatibility etc? Anyone who cares about that stuff in my environment is already on Linux on desktop and Android on mobile. Apple has its own universe and its fans like it that way. Software and hardware tightly coupled and designed together, apps highly vetted and filtered in a walled garden, compatibility among Apple devices is ensured, you can do fewer things and are kept between guardrails but are less likely to screw something up or run into bugs and untested territory etc. Seems like there's a market for this. The problem is when people have the wrong expectations and don't use existing alternatives that are better suited to their preferences.
  - gt565k 6y ago
    Meh I was an android user, linux etc, but apple's products do just work. In addition, their closed eco system allows for longer shelf life of their products as they maintain them. Every damn android phone I had, within a year or 2 max, the updates stopped, I would be multiple major versions behind. Android is a disaster as there's so many hardware variations and screen sizes. Developing great apps that work on all phones is a pain. Don't get me started on Linux where the graphics drivers are just shit. Every thinkpad and other laptop I had always had some issue recognizing external monitors on boot and bugging out. One monitor would work, another wouldn't, then the actual laptop display wouldn't but a monitor would. Even as a developer and tinker, I got tired of having to spend countless hours fixing bugs and shortcomings of products that should just work. I'd never own anything but a macbook pro for software development. Apple does it right.
awinter-py 6y ago
flashback to installing xcode circa ios 13 I had to install an old xcode version, grab a folder, install new xcode, and paste the folder in took a few tries to understand this, so it's a day + 20GB of downloads later before I had a working build this was caused by a weird race condition between ios + swift versions and is probably not typical, but my takeaway was that having users who must use your stuff sorely tempts companies to ship crappy software
- ungamedplayer 6y ago
  Doesnt everything apple "just work"
  - Shared404 6y ago
    Theoretically. In practice, I find that's not the case. I currently work at a repair shop, and it's not infrequent that we have apple products in for software based errors.
mrfusion 6y ago
I’ve got a bricked 2008 Mac mini. Still runs perfectly fine but I can’t seem to get the os updated. They say they don’t support it? And you can’t seem to access websites with a browser that old and I can’t seem to install a new browser on that old of an Os. I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb.
- peterburkimsher 6y ago
  The newest Mac OS for a 2008 Mac Mini (A1176) is 10.7.5. It should be possible to boot from USB by holding option when it starts. Some versions of Linux will work with the 32-bit EFI, but maybe not the latest versions. Try burning Ubuntu 10 to a CD, and you can probably get it to boot (holding option and choosing the disk, or holding C to boot from CD).
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb. Install rEFInd and look for Linux images that will boot on machines with 32-bit EFI. Debian has one.
Pfhreak 6y ago
I've got a Mac laptop that refuses to update to Catalina via the app store. It starts downloading and just fails along the way somewhere. Presumably in the downloading stages. I'd suuuure like to be able to download the Catalina installer manually to eliminate network as a dependency. Likewise for all the following incremental updates.
mmis1000 6y ago
Windows did it long time ago anyway. The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server. And the windows update also use the same server except it uses a different file list. So it is no really surprise that apple also do that. It is more surprise that apple didn't do it until now.
- Shared404 6y ago
  > The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server. You can actually still get an iso, but you have to be using or spoofing a non-windows operating system (I've only tested Linux, but I would assume Mac/*BSD as well)
  - mmis1000 6y ago
    They only precompile iso for a few selected version, I think? You won't get something like xpSP1 or so. They also don't precompile iso for things like fast ring or other non stable version windows. BTW, There is some third party assembler allow you to generate iso for whatever version you want(even some microsoft unsurpportrd versions).
    - Shared404 6y ago
      Interesting. At work we've got physical media for everything below 10, so I haven't needed any downloaded iso's there. At home, I usually use something from the-eye.eu
jaimex2 6y ago
I do enjoy watching Apple users squirm as the walled garden closes in around them.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I think it's pretty fascinating, and a little bit sad, that people exist who enjoy watching others suffer. It's especially interesting to see the swarm of critics arrive proclaiming the end of the world when it turns out to be a pretty minor thing. Yeah we can still download standalone installers.
fastball 6y ago
Can the title be changed to "macOS delta updates"? This is misleading otherwise.
protomyth 6y ago
Just another screw you from Apple for anyone with low bandwidth that has to update a lot of computers. Its bad enough it has noticeable delays in running programs because of their security and now this.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  If you have a bunch of computers and low bandwidth, you should set up a caching proxy and let it do the job for you. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-caching-on-mac-mchl3b6c3720/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-cach...
Yaggo 6y ago
Totally off-topic, but I recently made a super-simple OS installation for Raspberry Pi 4, based on archlinux and contaning only a Weston desktop, virtual terminal, and HW-accelerated browser (H264, WebGL etc). I immediately got hooked on that extremely simplyness & quickness! It was one-off project for dedicated purpose, not a desktop replacement, but I will probably build another one and see if it's any usable as an actual workstation, because I merely need anything else than browser & terminals. (Well, probably also a dedicated headless server running docker for heavier stuff.) (Context: I've been a die-hard Mac user since 2006, when I ditched Linux desktop, which I had used exclusively since 1998.)
- messo 6y ago
  > a super-simple OS installation for Raspberry Pi 4, based on archlinux and contaning only a Weston desktop, virtual terminal, and HW-accelerated browser If you where to write about this in more detail I would certainly read it (hint hint). I have been toying with a similar idea. Alpine Linux might also be an interesting OS for something like this.
  - Yaggo 6y ago
    I definitely should! The software situation for Rpi4 is a bit messy, because of ongoing 32->64bit transition, but not all stuff works there yet with mainline kernel. (From a hobby perspective it's a bit sad that some of the older APIs such as dispmanx/openvg are being phased out IIRC, because those are extremely powerful and useful for embedded-style applications, i.e. running something else than a destop.)
- wrycoder 6y ago
  What is a hardware-accelerated browser? What did you use?
  - Yaggo 6y ago
    https://wpewebkit.org/ https://wpewebkit.org/
xtiansimon 6y ago
Does this have effect on the secondary market for used Apple products?

289 points by mrzool 6y ago

oarsinsync 6y ago

“Apple continues the war on its own users...” Edit: apologies for the unsubstantive comment

Bombthecat 6y ago
Its probably to prevent hackintoshs..
- drak0n1c 6y ago
  Or to avoid extra vulnerabilities like the past 3rd party Xcode downloads, or the current SolarWinds debacle.
- userbinator 6y ago
  This has zero effect on Hackintosh... as others have pointed out, you can still get the full OS installers (as a free download!) by looking in the sucatalog.
dang 6y ago
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

nbzso 6y ago

So how it feels now, Mr. Apple apologist? Joke aside, I really hope Apple Developers to wake up and move away to other platforms. Apple is lost his touch and the only vision is summarised with one word: Control.

dataking 6y ago

That doesn't sound like good news for the hackintosh community.

nuker 6y ago
When I had one, updates via System Prefs worked just as fine.
nbzso 6y ago
That doesn't sound like good news at all. I have a habit to archive my system updates in case of network failure or other non connected scenario. In my mind this is mandatory. Good thing is that I have stored everything Catalina related and plan not to update any of my current computers with next version of Apple software. On other hand I am profoundly thankful for this reality. Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare. Thankfully the Little Snitch and VPN fiasco was the final point for me and migration to Debian/KDE is flawless.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Yes I can, when I started coding my first computer was a Timex 2068. Apple was always been like that, they just used their newly NeXTSTEP based OS to sell themselves to the UNIX crowd as a question of survival. Copland didn't had anything UNIX related, and BeOS just had some kind of minimal POSIX support, as it wasn't their goal to be a UNIX clone anyway. Copland having been a success, or going BeOS instead, are two possible not taken paths that would have given a very different outcome.
  - nbzso 6y ago
    Thanks for the Geek trip.:)) Timex 2068 is cool.
galad87 6y ago
Why? The full installer is available, and Hackintosh users can use Software Update too.
throw14082020 6y ago
I'm running a Hackintosh 11.0.1 installed fresh, this is not a problem.

joombaga 6y ago

softwareupdate can download updates without installing them. Does anyone know if they can be extracted?

rgovostes 6y ago

I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. Software updates delivered through the automatic updater are listed in an XML catalog file that anyone can parse to get the URL where the actual update package is hosted. The packages usually use the platform standard .pkg installer format. (Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.) Apple still provides the `softwareupdate` command line tool to list, download, and apply updates and even whole OS installers of the last 4 years of releases. The OS installers contain tools that can produce bootable install media if you want to archive them. Apple has also provided tools to mirror software updates on your own infrastructure---see the "Content Caching" option in the Sharing prefpane, for example. Not sure what the state of this is today. I think the linked article makes good arguments for why it may be premature to discontinue the standalone updates. And I am critical of how difficult it is to obtain OS installers for older hardware and VMs. But it's not the end of macOS as a developer platform.

Lev1a 6y ago
> Apple further locking down the platform > they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded Isn't that synonymous?
- vmception 6y ago
  This is hilarious. They remind me of a politician.
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    It's just a temporary refund adjustment.
- ossusermivami 6y ago
  Hahah exactly, like Apple don't have the resources to support multiple installs and have to sacrifice one method in the name of stability.....

myrandomcomment 6y ago

Confused. Just run software update, and when the install starts, exit it. Look in the /Applications folder and the installer is there. Run: sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Big\ Sur.app/Contents/Resources/createinstallmedia --volume /Volumes/MyVolume Here is the support link: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372 I just did it and it works just fine. UPDATE - I missed the fact it was the point release updates for some reason. Sorry. Leaving post as it is helpful for those that want to make a boot USB.

smarx007 6y ago
If you look at the article, the complaint was about point release deltas not being offered any more, e.g. 11.0->11.1. TBH, I didn't even know Apple provided them for download in the first place.
- myrandomcomment 6y ago
  Thanks, for some reason that did not register.
  - ehutch79 6y ago
    It didn't for me either. He keeps talking about standalone installers. Not clear he's actually talking about delta updates?
w0de 6y ago
`softwareupdate --fetch-full-installer` is slightly more elegant!

safetyengineer 6y ago

Stop giving Apple money. Stop developing for them. They are the bullies on the block. I refuse work for military contractors. Outwardly monopolistic companies that gaslight their customers in advertisements is bad capitalism.

peterburkimsher 6y ago

I used the Catalina point-release updaters on Tuesday! I needed to run Migration Assistant to copy files from a Mac Mini with 10.15.7 to another Mac Mini, originally with 10.11. Time Machine couldn't restore. The APFS drive wouldn't mount. Carbon Copy Cloner couldn't clone the drive either. I started to dd, but realised it wouldn't update the BootROM. I made a Catalina installer with createinstallmedia, to install 10.15. Migration Assistant still failed to copy over the keychain, because I'd installed 10.15.3 or something on the destination, instead of 10.15.7 (the source Mac Mini). Most files worked, but without the keychain, many passwords and software licence keys weren't available. I needed the standalone updaters to make both computer run 10.15.7, so I could run Migration Assistant and get the files over (finally!) It would be a big problem if Apple stop making these available.

abrowne 6y ago
Honest question: how's that different from running Software Update from the 10.15.3 install to get to 10.15.7? (Other than working offline once you have the update downloaded, that is.)
- peterburkimsher 6y ago
  Working offline is actually quite important. The download size is over 4 GB for the combo updater, even just for a point release. In this case, the Internet connection was fast enough, but in many places in the world it would take hours longer to download that (10 MBps at my parents' house, 250 KBps in Kiribati where I travelled last year). It's also good to not need to connect to the App Store, with all the 2FA involved. That would associate my Apple account with that computer, and save my password in the keychain. (Yes, I know I can delete it, but I want to leave the migration running overnight and just tell the user to reboot when it's done).
  - tmd83 6y ago
    I have had low bandwidth for most of my life and apple update has been a pain for the huge size of even point update. I actually haven't used offline download. My biggest pain point was that the downloader portion of the updater is so low quality. It corrupts downloads or restarts with tiny network blips, can't resume most of the time and often much slower to download than available bandwidth (that might a bad routing issue on my country). Overall it's often a painful experience.

pibefision 6y ago

https://github.com/corpnewt/gibMacOS https://github.com/corpnewt/gibMacOS solves this problem.

post_break 6y ago
Small world, corp actually helped me with my hackintosh.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ehutch79 6y ago

The article isn't clear that he's talking about delta updates from one version to the next.

mehrdada 6y ago

The ARM releases of macOS are really similar to iOS and you can get ipsw files and update via USB (from another machine).

musicale 6y ago

If this is true, it's very annoying. There was nothing wrong with the existing system of standalone installers.

sjwright 6y ago
You can still download full installers for any version. And you can still perform incremental updates live via software update. The only thing no longer available are downloadable delta updates.
- WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
  1) how do I update to x.3 if the latest is x.6? 2) do you think we all have free broadband growing on them trees?
  - sjwright 6y ago
    1) With the full installer for x.3 2) I agree Apple's decision is stupid.

tyingq 6y ago

I imagine this makes testing your application against various OS releases super fun.

SulphurCrested 6y ago
Surely you should only be testing against major releases: that is, only the most-recent point release for each major release. So, for example, Big Sur is at 11.1, so test against 11.1 but not 11.0. No user should be running 11.0 any more, as it has unpatched exploits. Similarly, every Catalina machine should be running 10.15.7 + the Supplemental Update from a couple of days ago, and every Mojave machine 10.14.6 + the relevant security updates. Now, users or administrators may have valid reasons to sit on a point release for a few days, for example to schedule it when it's less disruptive, or to wait to see whether there it has caused problems as a recent Mojave one did. (But not for much longer, because the act of releasing an update gives black hats something to look at, and Apple themselves usually publish details of the exploits a couple of days after the release that closes them, to give people time to update.) The thing is, they are also not going to install your new software in that window either; almost the only people running your software on other than the latest point release are people who already installed an older version of it, that you tested when that point release was current. Most normal people will either let your app and the OS auto-update on their own schedule, or manually update both at the same time. This all reduces the problem to having available copies of the last few major versions. You can't go back all that many versions because Apple's Xcode development suite stops supporting them, and you don't want to because the APIs change. It's a very different philosophy from the Windows "test against everything", but it's self-consistent, and is not unique to Apple operating systems.

amatecha 6y ago

One more step towards making a unified OS for both desktop and mobile. There hasn't been a single MacOS update that hasn't inched ever closer to this obvious eventual goal. One day you won't access actual files, they will be some abstract thing that can only be accessed via authenticated APIs. No "Apple account" -> no ability to use your device.

bonoboTP 6y ago
People I know who use Apple products wouldn't care. They want things to "just work" and to get their tasks done. If that's within some restrictive paid app they don't care, Apple device owners aren't penny pinchers. Seriously,who are the Apple users that are shocked by more and more locking down, less repairability, fewer ports and cross-brand compatibility etc? Anyone who cares about that stuff in my environment is already on Linux on desktop and Android on mobile. Apple has its own universe and its fans like it that way. Software and hardware tightly coupled and designed together, apps highly vetted and filtered in a walled garden, compatibility among Apple devices is ensured, you can do fewer things and are kept between guardrails but are less likely to screw something up or run into bugs and untested territory etc. Seems like there's a market for this. The problem is when people have the wrong expectations and don't use existing alternatives that are better suited to their preferences.
- gt565k 6y ago
  Meh I was an android user, linux etc, but apple's products do just work. In addition, their closed eco system allows for longer shelf life of their products as they maintain them. Every damn android phone I had, within a year or 2 max, the updates stopped, I would be multiple major versions behind. Android is a disaster as there's so many hardware variations and screen sizes. Developing great apps that work on all phones is a pain. Don't get me started on Linux where the graphics drivers are just shit. Every thinkpad and other laptop I had always had some issue recognizing external monitors on boot and bugging out. One monitor would work, another wouldn't, then the actual laptop display wouldn't but a monitor would. Even as a developer and tinker, I got tired of having to spend countless hours fixing bugs and shortcomings of products that should just work. I'd never own anything but a macbook pro for software development. Apple does it right.

awinter-py 6y ago

flashback to installing xcode circa ios 13 I had to install an old xcode version, grab a folder, install new xcode, and paste the folder in took a few tries to understand this, so it's a day + 20GB of downloads later before I had a working build this was caused by a weird race condition between ios + swift versions and is probably not typical, but my takeaway was that having users who must use your stuff sorely tempts companies to ship crappy software

ungamedplayer 6y ago
Doesnt everything apple "just work"
- Shared404 6y ago
  Theoretically. In practice, I find that's not the case. I currently work at a repair shop, and it's not infrequent that we have apple products in for software based errors.

mrfusion 6y ago

I’ve got a bricked 2008 Mac mini. Still runs perfectly fine but I can’t seem to get the os updated. They say they don’t support it? And you can’t seem to access websites with a browser that old and I can’t seem to install a new browser on that old of an Os. I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb.

peterburkimsher 6y ago
The newest Mac OS for a 2008 Mac Mini (A1176) is 10.7.5. It should be possible to boot from USB by holding option when it starts. Some versions of Linux will work with the 32-bit EFI, but maybe not the latest versions. Try burning Ubuntu 10 to a CD, and you can probably get it to boot (holding option and choosing the disk, or holding C to boot from CD).
heavyset_go 6y ago
> I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb. Install rEFInd and look for Linux images that will boot on machines with 32-bit EFI. Debian has one.

Pfhreak 6y ago

I've got a Mac laptop that refuses to update to Catalina via the app store. It starts downloading and just fails along the way somewhere. Presumably in the downloading stages. I'd suuuure like to be able to download the Catalina installer manually to eliminate network as a dependency. Likewise for all the following incremental updates.

mmis1000 6y ago

Windows did it long time ago anyway. The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server. And the windows update also use the same server except it uses a different file list. So it is no really surprise that apple also do that. It is more surprise that apple didn't do it until now.

Shared404 6y ago
> The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server. You can actually still get an iso, but you have to be using or spoofing a non-windows operating system (I've only tested Linux, but I would assume Mac/*BSD as well)
- mmis1000 6y ago
  They only precompile iso for a few selected version, I think? You won't get something like xpSP1 or so. They also don't precompile iso for things like fast ring or other non stable version windows. BTW, There is some third party assembler allow you to generate iso for whatever version you want(even some microsoft unsurpportrd versions).
  - Shared404 6y ago
    Interesting. At work we've got physical media for everything below 10, so I haven't needed any downloaded iso's there. At home, I usually use something from the-eye.eu

jaimex2 6y ago

I do enjoy watching Apple users squirm as the walled garden closes in around them.

rootusrootus 6y ago
I think it's pretty fascinating, and a little bit sad, that people exist who enjoy watching others suffer. It's especially interesting to see the swarm of critics arrive proclaiming the end of the world when it turns out to be a pretty minor thing. Yeah we can still download standalone installers.

fastball 6y ago

Can the title be changed to "macOS delta updates"? This is misleading otherwise.

protomyth 6y ago

Just another screw you from Apple for anyone with low bandwidth that has to update a lot of computers. Its bad enough it has noticeable delays in running programs because of their security and now this.

ogre_codes 6y ago
If you have a bunch of computers and low bandwidth, you should set up a caching proxy and let it do the job for you. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-caching-on-mac-mchl3b6c3720/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-cach...

Yaggo 6y ago

Totally off-topic, but I recently made a super-simple OS installation for Raspberry Pi 4, based on archlinux and contaning only a Weston desktop, virtual terminal, and HW-accelerated browser (H264, WebGL etc). I immediately got hooked on that extremely simplyness & quickness! It was one-off project for dedicated purpose, not a desktop replacement, but I will probably build another one and see if it's any usable as an actual workstation, because I merely need anything else than browser & terminals. (Well, probably also a dedicated headless server running docker for heavier stuff.) (Context: I've been a die-hard Mac user since 2006, when I ditched Linux desktop, which I had used exclusively since 1998.)

messo 6y ago
> a super-simple OS installation for Raspberry Pi 4, based on archlinux and contaning only a Weston desktop, virtual terminal, and HW-accelerated browser If you where to write about this in more detail I would certainly read it (hint hint). I have been toying with a similar idea. Alpine Linux might also be an interesting OS for something like this.
- Yaggo 6y ago
  I definitely should! The software situation for Rpi4 is a bit messy, because of ongoing 32->64bit transition, but not all stuff works there yet with mainline kernel. (From a hobby perspective it's a bit sad that some of the older APIs such as dispmanx/openvg are being phased out IIRC, because those are extremely powerful and useful for embedded-style applications, i.e. running something else than a destop.)
wrycoder 6y ago
What is a hardware-accelerated browser? What did you use?
- Yaggo 6y ago
  https://wpewebkit.org/ https://wpewebkit.org/

xtiansimon 6y ago

Does this have effect on the secondary market for used Apple products?