14 ms·

Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

0xcafecafe 6y ago
I wonder if there are studies linking this disease to occupations which routinely disturb ones circadian rhythm like air travel.
- Zenst 6y ago
  Certainly been ones looking at effects of lack of sleep and this jumped out: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-deprivation-increases-alzheimers-protein https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-d... Like most thinks, they have an effect and increase the odds, don't guarantee that lack of sleep during your life will assure you get it, just increases the chances as does age, which maybe a factor with such occupations you mention. I'd imagine shift workers would be a source of study about sleep impact.
hikerclimb 6y ago
I hope this isn’t true.
Brajeshwar 6y ago
I'm currently reading the book, "Why We Sleep (Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams)" right now and I'm stunned by all the new things we ignored when it comes to sleep. There are so many fascinating aspects of our life and body, all governed by Sleep. I highly suggest reading the book to explore more about your sleep.
- crusso 6y ago
  I got that book based upon a HN recommendation. It's fascinating reading and made me think carefully about how much sleep I was getting. I used to think of sleep as something that I could put off on a whim and catch-up on over the weekend. I would stay up later to play video games or program if I felt like it. Now, I'm a lot more rigorous in keeping to my nighttime sleep schedule. Whatever I'm doing can normally wait until the next day.
- sicromoft 6y ago
  Be warned, that book is riddled with scientific and factual errors: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
  - hyldmo 6y ago
    HN thread on guzey's article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
  - criddell 6y ago
    Walker has responded to some of this: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      Is this really Walker? I think that Alexey Guzey responded to this blog post though. It doesn't really counter any of Alexey's points.
  - jackTheMan 6y ago
    Very interesting writing, I wonder if the people sleeping just 6 hours (who are in the best condition acc. to a later explanation) wouldn't be because they have a cause in their life? They have a purpose that is why they get up early and motivated enough to work on it. For people with more sleep might be less motivated in average? Interesting topic nevertheless.
    - Darkphibre 6y ago
      I find this to be true. I sleep in 90-minute sleep cycles. I time my morning alarm thus (adding 10-15 minutes for initial spindown). When I wake up, even if it's 4.5hrs, my brain is typically going a mile-a-minute. There's so much I want to accomplish, it's hard to be mindful and go back to sleep (so I rarely do, especially if it's 'only' 6hrs vs. the 7.5 I seem to need). I looked back at my sleep logs, and I've slept longer than 7.5 only a handful of times in 2020, and it's always correlated with several nights of 1.5, 3, or 4.5 hrs.
- TaupeRanger 6y ago
  It's not a good book and was basically just used to get Matt Walker on daytime talk shows. It doesn't even attempt to answer the question in its title, and it has many cherry picked studies that don't actually prove what he's implying they do.
  - illegalsmile 6y ago
    I'd argue that regardless of the author's motive, as a layperson, it's a good book because it's easy to read and started me down the path of exploring my sleep in-depth. My take away from the book is, like so many other biological functions, we still don't really know why we sleep but we know sleep is important. Learn more if you want to, learn about why this book could be considered controversial but for most people the takeaway of "sleep good" is what matters.
  - Wh1zz 6y ago
    The book is great and Matt Walker is one of the leaders in the field of sleep study. There are numerous studies backing what he's written - even though there were some inaccuracies with some of the citations & ways he presented some facts, that is entirely expected in a book presenting thousands of such facts, and the author is planning on fixing all in the upcoming revised edition.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  It's a great book for emphasizing the importance of sleep. The author's desired outcome is to get people interested in healthy sleep habits, and he hits a home run in that regard. However, take some of the science positions in the book with a grain of salt. The author is notorious for being directionally correct in his opinions, but exaggerating a lot of the science for dramatic effect. This doesn't matter at all if you're reading the book to convince yourself to build better sleep habits, of course. However, it does seem to leave some people with exaggerated worries or anxiety about dying early or developing serious disease conditions if they've ever gone through periods of life with short sleep (college, raising kids, video game addiction) or if they're in a life situation that limits their sleep. In that regard, it's worth noting that the author is really stretching some of the studies and cherry-picking results to support his argument. Getting 6 hours per sleep at night will not be the death of you, despite what the book suggests. It's also commonly known that people get less sleep than they think they do. Someone might tell you they get 8 hours of sleep each night because they try to sleep from 11PM to 7AM, but in reality they stretch their bed time to midnight more often than not and then read their phone in bed for 15-30 minutes. Sleep advocates try to compensate by exaggerating target sleep times for adults to 8 hours. In reality, 7-ish hours of sleep appears to be just fine for most adults, with some requiring less and others requiring more. That said, most people will have to target 8 hours of dedicated bed time to really get those 7 hours of sleep in practice, hence the common exaggerations.
  - rubicon33 6y ago
    I have a weird relationship with sleep. If I sleep LESS (5, 6 hours) I feel better. More energy, lighter on my feet, less depressed. That lack of sleep always catches up with me though, and after 4-5 days of that I'll have a day where I just feel EXHAUSTED and end up sleeping like 10 hours that night.
    - Guest42 6y ago
      For me it seems like the earlier I start the less is required.
    - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
yunesj 6y ago
That’s not surprising at all. From a paper on circadian expression: > We found 43% of all protein coding genes showed circadian rhythms in transcription somewhere in the body, largely in an organ-specific manner. Assuming they looked at more than one protein biomarker, it’s highly likely that one of them would have circadian expression. https://www.pnas.org/content/111/45/16219 https://www.pnas.org/content/111/45/16219
- James_Henry 6y ago
  It seems like a lot of papers (the ones I end up seeing the headlines of in places like this) like to try and link Alzheimers to sleep. I think these just get attention because everyone sleeps and almost everyone seems to like to complain about their sleep.
remote_phone 6y ago
My mother has dementia, and I know 5 other close friends that are starting to deal with it as well. This is becoming an epidemic and what people don’t realize is that it is extremely expensive and exceedingly cruel. Most health care systems, including Canada and the US, do not handle dementia well at all. You have the choice of becoming financially destitute keeping your parents in a dignified setting, or you can let them essentially rot in a public facility which is basically a hospital. It’s terrible and needs a better solution.
- adamredwoods 6y ago
  My mother was purposely financially destitute when she died post dementia. It was the only way for the state to help pay for services without collecting everything (house, car, pension, etc). Later we were able to put her on hospice and that offered much more assistance. I cannot describe the stress in trying to figure out financials as a loved one is dying. It led to many sleepless nights...
  - exhilaration 6y ago
    We're just going through this with my dad, far fewer resources for the middle class when it come to getting assistance at home. Becoming "purposely financially destitute" sounds like a good strategy but I'm sure it has its own risks.
    - klondike_klive 6y ago
      At least in the UK attempts to gift money to relatives or sell a house to prevent it being sold to pay for social care is seen as "deprivation of assets" in a financial assessment.
      - ska 6y ago
        I think in a lot of jurisdictions this is possible, but there are timing considerations. I know families who have moved significant majority of assets to children much earlier than any medical issues, partially as a hedge against this.
rednerrus 6y ago
Taking bets that caffeine consumption will be found to be a comorbidity.
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  There’s some research that actually found the opposite (also for parkinsons)
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  Studies suggest it might be neutral or even protective in Alzheimer's: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20182054/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20182054/ > In the CAIDE study, coffee drinking of 3-5 cups per day at midlife was associated with a decreased risk of dementia/AD by about 65% at late-life. In conclusion, coffee drinking may be associated with a decreased risk of dementia/AD. This may be mediated by caffeine and/or other mechanisms like antioxidant capacity and increased insulin sensitivity. Not all studies are this positive. Note that sleep deprivation is still a risk factor, with or without the aid of caffeine.
- silverpepsi 6y ago
  I sure hope not. I increased my caffeine consumption intentionally 5x in the past decade because alzheimer's runs in both sides of the family.
  - kevmo 6y ago
    I'm not a doctor, just a person who also has Alzheimer's in his family, so I've thought and read a lot about it. My recipe is basically: Sleep enough, exercise (especially outside), eat right, make sure your brain is active and engaged on a regular basis (read real books, challenge yourself by getting out of your intellectual comfort zone). Studies show that coffee is good for Alzheimer's, so as long as you're not using it to stay awake when you need sleep, it's probably fine.
    - Darkphibre 6y ago
      Is it coffee? Or is it caffeine (i.e. tea, etc.)? I consume around 500-1000mg of caffeine a day (very carefully timed so as not to get jitters). I can't handle a higher dose of Adderall XR, so I've embraced my higher caffeine intakes as a way to soothe the mind. That said, I don't care for the flavor of coffee, so I typically consume it via Red Bull/5hr/tablet form.
deleted 6y ago
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m3kw9 6y ago
How do they find if actually that Alzheimers progression isnt the cause of bad sleep?
bluedevil2k 6y ago
I'm curious if sleep aids, whether it's OTC like melatonin or Rx like trazodone and Ambien, can help this situation. Is it just the sleep that's beneficial or is it "natural" sleep (that term doesn't mean anything, but you get the point of it)? In other words, should people who have difficulty sleeping look to aids as a way of staving off dementia later in life.
- snikeris 6y ago
  The first line of treatment is CBT-I.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    I wouldn't start CBT-I without first getting a sleep test, particulary for sleep apnea which can be present without obvious symptoms beyond insomnia or a delayed sleep phase. It's also much more common in young fit people than is often thought.
    - slothtrop 6y ago
      I would by virtue that CBTi isn't just sleep restriction, the most important component is CBT. At any rate restriction need not be very severe.
      - James_Henry 6y ago
        My point is that CBTi isn't what you need if you have sleep apnea or some other treatable disorder as the root of your sleeping issues.
  - mike_d 6y ago
    CBT-I is psychotherapy targeted at treating one specific cause of insomnia. It does not address any of the physical ailments that may also lead to sleep disorders. If you aren't careful, you'll lose your internet medical license with such bold medically unsound claims.
diveanon 6y ago
Well. I'm fucked.
- pbourke 6y ago
  Yeah my first thought as well :/
sradman 6y ago
From the paper Chi3l1/YKL-40 is controlled by the astrocyte circadian clock and regulates neuroinflammation and Alzheimer’s disease pathogenesis [1]: > Regulation of glial activation and neuroinflammation are critical factors in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer’s disease (AD). YKL-40, a primarily astrocytic protein encoded by the gene Chi3l1, is a widely studied cerebrospinal fluid biomarker that increases with aging and early in AD. > Accordingly, Chi3l1 knockdown increased phagocytosis of zymosan particles and of β-amyloid peptide in both astrocytes and microglia in vitro. We further observed that expression of Chi3l1 is regulated by the circadian clock, as deletion of the core clock proteins BMAL1 or CLOCK/NPAS2 strongly suppresses basal Chi3l1 expression, whereas deletion of the negative clock regulators PER1/PER2 increased Chi3l1 expression. Basal Chi3l1 mRNA was nonrhythmic because of a long mRNA half-life in astrocytes. However, inflammatory induction of Chi3l1 was gated by the clock. Our findings reveal Chi3l1/YKL-40 as a modulator of glial phagocytic activation and AD pathogenesis in both mice and humans and suggest that the astrocyte circadian clock regulates inflammatory Chi3l1 induction. The New Atlas title conflates "sleep cycles" with "circadian rhythm". The Washington University news release gets it right [2]. [1] https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/574/eaax3519 https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/574/eaax3519 [2] https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/protein-involved-in-removing-alzheimers-buildup-linked-to-circadian-rhythm/ https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/protein-involved-in-removing...
- rtkaratekid 6y ago
  Thanks for posting this. Helps me springboard into the paper faster.
- zamfi 6y ago
  > We further observed that expression of Chi3l1 is regulated by the circadian clock, as deletion of the core clock proteins BMAL1 or CLOCK/NPAS2 strongly suppresses basal Chi3l1 expression, whereas deletion of the negative clock regulators PER1/PER2 increased Chi3l1 expression. Basal Chi3l1 mRNA was nonrhythmic because of a long mRNA half-life in astrocytes. However, inflammatory induction of Chi3l1 was gated by the clock I'm struck by how much this description sounds like someone debugging or reverse-engineering some unknown microcontroller. Do you (or anyone) know: has molecular bio always been like this? Or are there new tools that allow for selective inhibition of signals to observe effects?
vmception 6y ago
Am I starting to understand that people with Alzheimer were all part of "hustle culture" when they were younger? Guess we should teach discipline in a different way, or just acknowledge that our socioeconomic circumstances will never materially change - or at least have a real ceiling - outside of complete luck.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  What is the logic that is holding your reasoning together? A lot of "hustling" culture actually ephasizes good habits including hardcore sleep scheduling, good nutrition and excercise?
  - vmception 6y ago
    And a lot of it doesn't.
    - Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
      So it sounds like a null hypothesis at best?
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  That seems like a pretty sweeping and flimsy generalization off of a single study that found correlation between accelerated amyloid plaque build and lack of sleep.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  You might be starting to have that understanding but whether it's correct is a completely separate question. Even if this study were proof that poor sleep is 100% causal of Alzheimer's (it's not even close), that would neither be proof that all Alzheimer's is caused by poor sleep nor proof that members of "hustle culture" sleep less. You've made about three or four unsupported inferences.
dcolkitt 6y ago
I believe in 100 years we'll look back in horror at our society's casual indifference to routinely waking adolescents, a group with the latest shifted circadian rhythms, wake up before dawn. Much the same way that we look back at horror with the past's casual indifference to smoking.
- throwaway98797 6y ago
  only 100 years ago most would be waking up before dawn to milk the cows.
  - peacefulhat 6y ago
    most in 1920?
    - throwaway98797 6y ago
      I’m directionally correct. You’re right though. Point stands if I make it 200 years ago and more importantly for most of human history.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    And in bed at sundown.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      I don't think so, especially not 100 years ago. There were too many good radio programs and before that there were other people to talk to and even alone, there were the stars. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...
      - oarabbus_ 6y ago
        I don't find a convincing argument to use people living in traditional societies in Tanzania to illuminate the sleeping cycles of people in industrialized Western societies 100 years ago for people who had to be at a factory or office by 8am.
oarabbus_ 6y ago
What does this mean for people with severe Delayed Phase Sleep Syndrome (DSPS)? I do not feel the need for sleep until usually about 2am, and I find it exceedingly difficult to wake up before 10am. And yes, it's made it extremely difficult to live a "normal" life like your typical person who can wake up at 7am without issue. It's been a problem with relationships, poor performance in school, issues in promotions and work performance, etc.
- eecks 6y ago
  I wasn't diagnosed with this but I had the symptoms and the consequences you mentioned. It took a long time to fix. Here's some things I tried. Some may have helped or none may have helped. * I bought blackout blinds and use a sleeping mask (sometimes earplugs) * I bought a bright light (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS) and a smart plug. 15 mins before I wanted to wake up I would have a timer turn on the light. * I eat healthier in all regards * I started working out * I started walking a lot more * I stop drinking coffee at 11am (and drink tea after that) * I stopped some doing some things late at night (after 23:30) (gaming, programming, eating, using my phone) * I started listening to audiobooks
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - hertzrat 6y ago
    Reminds me of wozniaks advice: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia
    - wyclif 6y ago
      Hey, thanks for posting that! It's exactly the information I've been looking for, all in one place.
    - sprite 6y ago
      Bookmarked for reading later, I think I suffer from this. I normally can’t fall asleep before 2-4am, even if my body is physically tired I often feel like I can’t turn off my brain, once I’m asleep I sleep well and wake up naturally after 6-8 hours. It does seem cutting off screens an hour or so before bed and melatonin sometimes helps.
neves 6y ago
What do you think about this incredible site about sleep: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SuperMemo_Guru#Sleep https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SuperMemo_Guru#Sleep From the author of first Spaced Repetition software. There's too much info to digest.
woeirua 6y ago
You should take these findings with a big grain of salt. Remember we don't yet even have a causal model of Alzheimer's and dementia. Amyloid plaques are strongly associated with Alzheimer's but it's not clear if they're the actual cause or if they're just a residual indicator that something else has already gone wrong in the brain. As a counterpoint to the amyloid hypothesis, we also see amyloid build ups in patients suffering from sleep apnea, and yet they don't show the hallmark signs of dementia or Alzheimers [1]. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200928103416.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200928103416.h...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- suifbwish 6y ago
  This can be said for a ton of other bio indicators . Similar: does alcohol consumption increase risk of cancer by X percentage or do X percent of alcoholics engage in some cancer causing activity/practice.
  - andy_ppp 6y ago
    Are the sleep cycles of Alcoholics causing them to have weakened immune surveillance for cancerous cells or is it the direct effect of alcohol on the cells that causes them to divide incorrectly?
- kick_in_the_dro 6y ago
  Sorry didn't read the paper linked. Does it say apnea patients don't have higher levels of dementia/Alzheimer's? Perhaps it's because apnea occurs at all ages while these diseases tend to happen later in life?
- voisin 6y ago
  >big grain of salt Isn’t the point of the “grain of Salt” to indicate that it is trivial? If so, then by saying “big grain of salt” aren’t you undermining the point of the original statement? I see this regularly and wonder if I am missing something.
aaron695 6y ago
This article is relevant to people who nap. (And I think napping, over nighttime sleep fragmentation or other sleep stuff, going off the supplementary materials of the original study) And we also know people who have Alzheimer nap more. Which they are not sure quite yet on correlation or causation related to this study.
angry_octet 6y ago
This is particularly reassuring for those of us with years of crunch projects and jolt cola under our belts (literally). It's time to reset the culture of crunch. That could start at University, where professors still delight in giving projects due at the same time. This year they seem to give more projects to compensate for lower weight on the exam. Yay covid helps you concentrate! It's time for engineers to embrace bedtime.

I wonder if there are studies linking this disease to occupations which routinely disturb ones circadian rhythm like air travel.

Zenst 6y ago
Certainly been ones looking at effects of lack of sleep and this jumped out: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-deprivation-increases-alzheimers-protein https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sleep-d... Like most thinks, they have an effect and increase the odds, don't guarantee that lack of sleep during your life will assure you get it, just increases the chances as does age, which maybe a factor with such occupations you mention. I'd imagine shift workers would be a source of study about sleep impact.

hikerclimb 6y ago

I hope this isn’t true.

Brajeshwar 6y ago

I'm currently reading the book, "Why We Sleep (Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams)" right now and I'm stunned by all the new things we ignored when it comes to sleep. There are so many fascinating aspects of our life and body, all governed by Sleep. I highly suggest reading the book to explore more about your sleep.

crusso 6y ago
I got that book based upon a HN recommendation. It's fascinating reading and made me think carefully about how much sleep I was getting. I used to think of sleep as something that I could put off on a whim and catch-up on over the weekend. I would stay up later to play video games or program if I felt like it. Now, I'm a lot more rigorous in keeping to my nighttime sleep schedule. Whatever I'm doing can normally wait until the next day.
sicromoft 6y ago
Be warned, that book is riddled with scientific and factual errors: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
- hyldmo 6y ago
  HN thread on guzey's article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
- criddell 6y ago
  Walker has responded to some of this: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    Is this really Walker? I think that Alexey Guzey responded to this blog post though. It doesn't really counter any of Alexey's points.
- jackTheMan 6y ago
  Very interesting writing, I wonder if the people sleeping just 6 hours (who are in the best condition acc. to a later explanation) wouldn't be because they have a cause in their life? They have a purpose that is why they get up early and motivated enough to work on it. For people with more sleep might be less motivated in average? Interesting topic nevertheless.
  - Darkphibre 6y ago
    I find this to be true. I sleep in 90-minute sleep cycles. I time my morning alarm thus (adding 10-15 minutes for initial spindown). When I wake up, even if it's 4.5hrs, my brain is typically going a mile-a-minute. There's so much I want to accomplish, it's hard to be mindful and go back to sleep (so I rarely do, especially if it's 'only' 6hrs vs. the 7.5 I seem to need). I looked back at my sleep logs, and I've slept longer than 7.5 only a handful of times in 2020, and it's always correlated with several nights of 1.5, 3, or 4.5 hrs.
TaupeRanger 6y ago
It's not a good book and was basically just used to get Matt Walker on daytime talk shows. It doesn't even attempt to answer the question in its title, and it has many cherry picked studies that don't actually prove what he's implying they do.
- illegalsmile 6y ago
  I'd argue that regardless of the author's motive, as a layperson, it's a good book because it's easy to read and started me down the path of exploring my sleep in-depth. My take away from the book is, like so many other biological functions, we still don't really know why we sleep but we know sleep is important. Learn more if you want to, learn about why this book could be considered controversial but for most people the takeaway of "sleep good" is what matters.
- Wh1zz 6y ago
  The book is great and Matt Walker is one of the leaders in the field of sleep study. There are numerous studies backing what he's written - even though there were some inaccuracies with some of the citations & ways he presented some facts, that is entirely expected in a book presenting thousands of such facts, and the author is planning on fixing all in the upcoming revised edition.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
It's a great book for emphasizing the importance of sleep. The author's desired outcome is to get people interested in healthy sleep habits, and he hits a home run in that regard. However, take some of the science positions in the book with a grain of salt. The author is notorious for being directionally correct in his opinions, but exaggerating a lot of the science for dramatic effect. This doesn't matter at all if you're reading the book to convince yourself to build better sleep habits, of course. However, it does seem to leave some people with exaggerated worries or anxiety about dying early or developing serious disease conditions if they've ever gone through periods of life with short sleep (college, raising kids, video game addiction) or if they're in a life situation that limits their sleep. In that regard, it's worth noting that the author is really stretching some of the studies and cherry-picking results to support his argument. Getting 6 hours per sleep at night will not be the death of you, despite what the book suggests. It's also commonly known that people get less sleep than they think they do. Someone might tell you they get 8 hours of sleep each night because they try to sleep from 11PM to 7AM, but in reality they stretch their bed time to midnight more often than not and then read their phone in bed for 15-30 minutes. Sleep advocates try to compensate by exaggerating target sleep times for adults to 8 hours. In reality, 7-ish hours of sleep appears to be just fine for most adults, with some requiring less and others requiring more. That said, most people will have to target 8 hours of dedicated bed time to really get those 7 hours of sleep in practice, hence the common exaggerations.
- rubicon33 6y ago
  I have a weird relationship with sleep. If I sleep LESS (5, 6 hours) I feel better. More energy, lighter on my feet, less depressed. That lack of sleep always catches up with me though, and after 4-5 days of that I'll have a day where I just feel EXHAUSTED and end up sleeping like 10 hours that night.
  - Guest42 6y ago
    For me it seems like the earlier I start the less is required.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago

yunesj 6y ago

That’s not surprising at all. From a paper on circadian expression: > We found 43% of all protein coding genes showed circadian rhythms in transcription somewhere in the body, largely in an organ-specific manner. Assuming they looked at more than one protein biomarker, it’s highly likely that one of them would have circadian expression. https://www.pnas.org/content/111/45/16219 https://www.pnas.org/content/111/45/16219

James_Henry 6y ago
It seems like a lot of papers (the ones I end up seeing the headlines of in places like this) like to try and link Alzheimers to sleep. I think these just get attention because everyone sleeps and almost everyone seems to like to complain about their sleep.

remote_phone 6y ago

My mother has dementia, and I know 5 other close friends that are starting to deal with it as well. This is becoming an epidemic and what people don’t realize is that it is extremely expensive and exceedingly cruel. Most health care systems, including Canada and the US, do not handle dementia well at all. You have the choice of becoming financially destitute keeping your parents in a dignified setting, or you can let them essentially rot in a public facility which is basically a hospital. It’s terrible and needs a better solution.

adamredwoods 6y ago
My mother was purposely financially destitute when she died post dementia. It was the only way for the state to help pay for services without collecting everything (house, car, pension, etc). Later we were able to put her on hospice and that offered much more assistance. I cannot describe the stress in trying to figure out financials as a loved one is dying. It led to many sleepless nights...
- exhilaration 6y ago
  We're just going through this with my dad, far fewer resources for the middle class when it come to getting assistance at home. Becoming "purposely financially destitute" sounds like a good strategy but I'm sure it has its own risks.
  - klondike_klive 6y ago
    At least in the UK attempts to gift money to relatives or sell a house to prevent it being sold to pay for social care is seen as "deprivation of assets" in a financial assessment.
    - ska 6y ago
      I think in a lot of jurisdictions this is possible, but there are timing considerations. I know families who have moved significant majority of assets to children much earlier than any medical issues, partially as a hedge against this.

rednerrus 6y ago

Taking bets that caffeine consumption will be found to be a comorbidity.

dilyevsky 6y ago
There’s some research that actually found the opposite (also for parkinsons)
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Studies suggest it might be neutral or even protective in Alzheimer's: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20182054/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20182054/ > In the CAIDE study, coffee drinking of 3-5 cups per day at midlife was associated with a decreased risk of dementia/AD by about 65% at late-life. In conclusion, coffee drinking may be associated with a decreased risk of dementia/AD. This may be mediated by caffeine and/or other mechanisms like antioxidant capacity and increased insulin sensitivity. Not all studies are this positive. Note that sleep deprivation is still a risk factor, with or without the aid of caffeine.
silverpepsi 6y ago
I sure hope not. I increased my caffeine consumption intentionally 5x in the past decade because alzheimer's runs in both sides of the family.
- kevmo 6y ago
  I'm not a doctor, just a person who also has Alzheimer's in his family, so I've thought and read a lot about it. My recipe is basically: Sleep enough, exercise (especially outside), eat right, make sure your brain is active and engaged on a regular basis (read real books, challenge yourself by getting out of your intellectual comfort zone). Studies show that coffee is good for Alzheimer's, so as long as you're not using it to stay awake when you need sleep, it's probably fine.
  - Darkphibre 6y ago
    Is it coffee? Or is it caffeine (i.e. tea, etc.)? I consume around 500-1000mg of caffeine a day (very carefully timed so as not to get jitters). I can't handle a higher dose of Adderall XR, so I've embraced my higher caffeine intakes as a way to soothe the mind. That said, I don't care for the flavor of coffee, so I typically consume it via Red Bull/5hr/tablet form.

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m3kw9 6y ago

How do they find if actually that Alzheimers progression isnt the cause of bad sleep?

bluedevil2k 6y ago

I'm curious if sleep aids, whether it's OTC like melatonin or Rx like trazodone and Ambien, can help this situation. Is it just the sleep that's beneficial or is it "natural" sleep (that term doesn't mean anything, but you get the point of it)? In other words, should people who have difficulty sleeping look to aids as a way of staving off dementia later in life.

snikeris 6y ago
The first line of treatment is CBT-I.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  I wouldn't start CBT-I without first getting a sleep test, particulary for sleep apnea which can be present without obvious symptoms beyond insomnia or a delayed sleep phase. It's also much more common in young fit people than is often thought.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    I would by virtue that CBTi isn't just sleep restriction, the most important component is CBT. At any rate restriction need not be very severe.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      My point is that CBTi isn't what you need if you have sleep apnea or some other treatable disorder as the root of your sleeping issues.
- mike_d 6y ago
  CBT-I is psychotherapy targeted at treating one specific cause of insomnia. It does not address any of the physical ailments that may also lead to sleep disorders. If you aren't careful, you'll lose your internet medical license with such bold medically unsound claims.

diveanon 6y ago

Well. I'm fucked.

pbourke 6y ago
Yeah my first thought as well :/

sradman 6y ago

From the paper Chi3l1/YKL-40 is controlled by the astrocyte circadian clock and regulates neuroinflammation and Alzheimer’s disease pathogenesis [1]: > Regulation of glial activation and neuroinflammation are critical factors in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer’s disease (AD). YKL-40, a primarily astrocytic protein encoded by the gene Chi3l1, is a widely studied cerebrospinal fluid biomarker that increases with aging and early in AD. > Accordingly, Chi3l1 knockdown increased phagocytosis of zymosan particles and of β-amyloid peptide in both astrocytes and microglia in vitro. We further observed that expression of Chi3l1 is regulated by the circadian clock, as deletion of the core clock proteins BMAL1 or CLOCK/NPAS2 strongly suppresses basal Chi3l1 expression, whereas deletion of the negative clock regulators PER1/PER2 increased Chi3l1 expression. Basal Chi3l1 mRNA was nonrhythmic because of a long mRNA half-life in astrocytes. However, inflammatory induction of Chi3l1 was gated by the clock. Our findings reveal Chi3l1/YKL-40 as a modulator of glial phagocytic activation and AD pathogenesis in both mice and humans and suggest that the astrocyte circadian clock regulates inflammatory Chi3l1 induction. The New Atlas title conflates "sleep cycles" with "circadian rhythm". The Washington University news release gets it right [2]. [1] https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/574/eaax3519 https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/574/eaax3519 [2] https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/protein-involved-in-removing-alzheimers-buildup-linked-to-circadian-rhythm/ https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/protein-involved-in-removing...

rtkaratekid 6y ago
Thanks for posting this. Helps me springboard into the paper faster.
zamfi 6y ago
> We further observed that expression of Chi3l1 is regulated by the circadian clock, as deletion of the core clock proteins BMAL1 or CLOCK/NPAS2 strongly suppresses basal Chi3l1 expression, whereas deletion of the negative clock regulators PER1/PER2 increased Chi3l1 expression. Basal Chi3l1 mRNA was nonrhythmic because of a long mRNA half-life in astrocytes. However, inflammatory induction of Chi3l1 was gated by the clock I'm struck by how much this description sounds like someone debugging or reverse-engineering some unknown microcontroller. Do you (or anyone) know: has molecular bio always been like this? Or are there new tools that allow for selective inhibition of signals to observe effects?

vmception 6y ago

Am I starting to understand that people with Alzheimer were all part of "hustle culture" when they were younger? Guess we should teach discipline in a different way, or just acknowledge that our socioeconomic circumstances will never materially change - or at least have a real ceiling - outside of complete luck.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
What is the logic that is holding your reasoning together? A lot of "hustling" culture actually ephasizes good habits including hardcore sleep scheduling, good nutrition and excercise?
- vmception 6y ago
  And a lot of it doesn't.
  - Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
    So it sounds like a null hypothesis at best?
CyberDildonics 6y ago
That seems like a pretty sweeping and flimsy generalization off of a single study that found correlation between accelerated amyloid plaque build and lack of sleep.
asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
You might be starting to have that understanding but whether it's correct is a completely separate question. Even if this study were proof that poor sleep is 100% causal of Alzheimer's (it's not even close), that would neither be proof that all Alzheimer's is caused by poor sleep nor proof that members of "hustle culture" sleep less. You've made about three or four unsupported inferences.

dcolkitt 6y ago

I believe in 100 years we'll look back in horror at our society's casual indifference to routinely waking adolescents, a group with the latest shifted circadian rhythms, wake up before dawn. Much the same way that we look back at horror with the past's casual indifference to smoking.

throwaway98797 6y ago
only 100 years ago most would be waking up before dawn to milk the cows.
- peacefulhat 6y ago
  most in 1920?
  - throwaway98797 6y ago
    I’m directionally correct. You’re right though. Point stands if I make it 200 years ago and more importantly for most of human history.
- treeman79 6y ago
  And in bed at sundown.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    I don't think so, especially not 100 years ago. There were too many good radio programs and before that there were other people to talk to and even alone, there were the stars. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...
    - oarabbus_ 6y ago
      I don't find a convincing argument to use people living in traditional societies in Tanzania to illuminate the sleeping cycles of people in industrialized Western societies 100 years ago for people who had to be at a factory or office by 8am.

oarabbus_ 6y ago

What does this mean for people with severe Delayed Phase Sleep Syndrome (DSPS)? I do not feel the need for sleep until usually about 2am, and I find it exceedingly difficult to wake up before 10am. And yes, it's made it extremely difficult to live a "normal" life like your typical person who can wake up at 7am without issue. It's been a problem with relationships, poor performance in school, issues in promotions and work performance, etc.

eecks 6y ago
I wasn't diagnosed with this but I had the symptoms and the consequences you mentioned. It took a long time to fix. Here's some things I tried. Some may have helped or none may have helped. * I bought blackout blinds and use a sleeping mask (sometimes earplugs) * I bought a bright light (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS) and a smart plug. 15 mins before I wanted to wake up I would have a timer turn on the light. * I eat healthier in all regards * I started working out * I started walking a lot more * I stop drinking coffee at 11am (and drink tea after that) * I stopped some doing some things late at night (after 23:30) (gaming, programming, eating, using my phone) * I started listening to audiobooks
- deleted 6y ago
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- hertzrat 6y ago
  Reminds me of wozniaks advice: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia
  - wyclif 6y ago
    Hey, thanks for posting that! It's exactly the information I've been looking for, all in one place.
  - sprite 6y ago
    Bookmarked for reading later, I think I suffer from this. I normally can’t fall asleep before 2-4am, even if my body is physically tired I often feel like I can’t turn off my brain, once I’m asleep I sleep well and wake up naturally after 6-8 hours. It does seem cutting off screens an hour or so before bed and melatonin sometimes helps.

neves 6y ago

What do you think about this incredible site about sleep: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SuperMemo_Guru#Sleep https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SuperMemo_Guru#Sleep From the author of first Spaced Repetition software. There's too much info to digest.

woeirua 6y ago

You should take these findings with a big grain of salt. Remember we don't yet even have a causal model of Alzheimer's and dementia. Amyloid plaques are strongly associated with Alzheimer's but it's not clear if they're the actual cause or if they're just a residual indicator that something else has already gone wrong in the brain. As a counterpoint to the amyloid hypothesis, we also see amyloid build ups in patients suffering from sleep apnea, and yet they don't show the hallmark signs of dementia or Alzheimers [1]. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200928103416.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200928103416.h...

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suifbwish 6y ago
This can be said for a ton of other bio indicators . Similar: does alcohol consumption increase risk of cancer by X percentage or do X percent of alcoholics engage in some cancer causing activity/practice.
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  Are the sleep cycles of Alcoholics causing them to have weakened immune surveillance for cancerous cells or is it the direct effect of alcohol on the cells that causes them to divide incorrectly?
kick_in_the_dro 6y ago
Sorry didn't read the paper linked. Does it say apnea patients don't have higher levels of dementia/Alzheimer's? Perhaps it's because apnea occurs at all ages while these diseases tend to happen later in life?
voisin 6y ago
>big grain of salt Isn’t the point of the “grain of Salt” to indicate that it is trivial? If so, then by saying “big grain of salt” aren’t you undermining the point of the original statement? I see this regularly and wonder if I am missing something.

aaron695 6y ago

This article is relevant to people who nap. (And I think napping, over nighttime sleep fragmentation or other sleep stuff, going off the supplementary materials of the original study) And we also know people who have Alzheimer nap more. Which they are not sure quite yet on correlation or causation related to this study.

angry_octet 6y ago

This is particularly reassuring for those of us with years of crunch projects and jolt cola under our belts (literally). It's time to reset the culture of crunch. That could start at University, where professors still delight in giving projects due at the same time. This year they seem to give more projects to compensate for lower weight on the exam. Yay covid helps you concentrate! It's time for engineers to embrace bedtime.