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I heard this on NPR recently and was really moved by it [1]. Recommend reading the whole thing. > You know me. I'm in your friendship circle, hidden in plain s

I heard this on NPR recently and was really moved by it [1]. Recommend reading the whole thing. > You know me. I'm in your friendship circle, hidden in plain sight. My clothes are still impeccable, bought in the good years when I was still making money. To look at me, you would not know that my electricity was cut off last week for non-payment or that I meet the eligibility requirements for food stamps. But if you paid attention, you would see the sadness in my eyes, hear that hint of fear in my otherwise self-assured voice. [1] https://www.npr.org/transcripts/945092228 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/945092228

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
save_ferris 6y ago
The fear of "looking poor" is so real in the US, which makes it harder to see who's struggling. It also creates this cognitive dissonance I've noticed here on HN where an article gets posted with pictures of the extended lines at food banks and people point out that most people seem to be driving relatively new cars, therefore why are they in line at a food bank? I think a lot of people don't understand how poverty really looks because we're socially motivated to project wealth and status wherever we can.
- powersnail 6y ago
  Another aspect is that selling used stuff doesn’t bring much money in, especially clothing. I don’t even know whether it’s sellable. Apart from my car, if I sell all my belongings, I might get one month worth of rent. Hardly seems worth it, unless there is a way to use that money to earn more money.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Also can’t sell or trade your car to downgrade if you need a car, as if you need financing to get the next car, you’re not going to qualify for the loan if you’re without employment. Your car is a trailing indicator of your financial situation, not necessarily present state.
    - jeromegv 6y ago
      The fact that most jobs require a car is a huge deterrent for most low income people to actually find a job. Great public transit is not just something to help the poor, it's also a way to make workers be able to get to work, it's good for the economy and yet we look at it almost as charity.
      - souprock 6y ago
        Public transit spreads viruses, both old and new. It helped put us in this mess. It'll spread the next virus too. We have a huge problem if people get used to relying on a transportation method that needs to be shut down when a virus spreads.
    - ryathal 6y ago
      Financing cars is a poverty trap. There are cars in the 1-2k range that work perfectly fine and will reliably work with minimal maintenance, and there are sub 1k cars that run ok enough that you can use as a bridge to save enough for a slightly better car. Financing a car is a double whammy because you pay interest and have a deprecating asset. At the low end cars really don't deprecate much. The act of not having a car payment is a great first step to building wealth.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        Financing part of a $10,000 vehicle is incredibly cheap right now. A few hundred dollars total to borrow for several years.
        ryathal 6y ago
        Financing a 10k car is "cheap" if you have decent credit and aren't rolling negative equity from another car into that. Using average rates it represents a 10-15% additional cost over the principal, and you end up with a car worth about half that. With a 60 month loan you "spent" $6-7k to have a car for those 5 years, if you keep it another 5 years the numbers look better.
  - nradov 6y ago
    Charities barely even want used clothes donations any more. Only a few top designer labels have any significant resale value.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Charities barely even want used clothes donations any more. Only a few top designer labels have any significant resale value. Long ago, I volunteered once at a thrift store. IIRC, they actually bailed up a significant fraction of their clothing donations and sent them Africa.
- bittercynic 6y ago
  It is very real, but if you can somehow escape from it there are huge advantages. Not caring that we might look poor has been the biggest factor enabling me and my wife to build a good, stable life for ourselves while peers who out-earn us perpetually struggle on the brink of ruin.
  - caeril 6y ago
    > but if you can somehow escape from it Not sure what you mean by this. There's nothing to escape from. The word we have for superficial consumerist social strivers who spend conspicuously to soothe their ego and signal their status is "asshole". Don't be an asshole. It's not that hard.
- lumost 6y ago
  cars made in the last 15 years don’t look that different from each other. You can purchase a 7-8 yo mass market vehicle for 2-6k that will run alright. Having used cars older than that as a daily driver, the cost of repairs/downtime outstrip the cost of replacing the vehicle more often than not. Not driving isn’t really an option in the US, and driving a clunker will raise some flags to coworkers/other parents in the parking lot. The other cash poor option is to grab a lease with good incentives, it’s a terrible deal - but it’s the best if you need to conserve cash flow month to month ( particularly if you can’t afford fixing a breakdown ) Which is all to say, if your poor - driving a half broken down car would be a terrible investment.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Glancing at craigslist here, the first 3 vehicles under $6000 are a 2010, a 2008 and a 2006. The low mileage of the group is 133,000. They are dealer listings also, so probably not the best deals, but there aren't many others at the price.
    - souprock 6y ago
      That is because the cash-for-clunkers program, intended to help the automobile industry, sent the older cars to be destroyed. We crushed perfectly usable vehicles. That's like breaking windows to help the glass industry; it is not so nice for the poor or for the environment.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        It was tiny (relative to the US vehicle market, ~700,000 vehicles vs ~15 million annually) and obviously didn't remove 2010+ cars from the market. Which those more recent vehicles are the vehicles the other poster alluded to, that I did not find with a real basic search.
      - skinnymuch 6y ago
        This is talking cars in last decade. Not cash for clunkers. Which likely isn’t a big enough of a dent to mess with cars made after it
silicon2401 6y ago
I always find myself surprised that people respond to this kind of writing. What part resonates with you? When I read this, I just roll my eyes at an author unabashedly looking to tug at heartstrings. I would be moved by a real person's story, but this not only is pure fantasy, it even creates a stereotype that all poor people are timid and frail. And again, I know some people do become broken by poverty, so why not share their real story?
- eulers_secret 6y ago
  I responded because I am empathetic. > What part resonates with you? Her losing her job, not being able to be re-hired at a similar salary, spending her savings, and winding up in poverty despite doing everything 'right'. At 55, she has an uphill battle to get another job. Why hire her when someone with 15 YOE costs less and will work for more than 5 years? Employees are not that unique. Ageism is also a large problem in tech, but we just don't talk about it much. How common is it to be on track to retire for 25+ years after aging out? What if someone forgot to change their 401(K) investment strategy and happen to be 'retired' (laid off due to age) during a market downturn? Does everyone know that's a thing you should do about 5 years before retirement? There are too many 'gotchas' that can seriously alter retirement plans. I think it is cruel to treat people this way, and I can see it happening to myself. Even if I do everything 'right' (and I certainly have not). That is what I respond to - the warning that even if you play your hand well, you can still lose and have miserable twilight years.
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    I am also empathetic, but I find the author's writing in poor taste. She's still able to afford eating at expensive restaurants, but writes with the tone of a martyr because she has to get seltzer water instead of chardonnay. I grew up quite poor and still have loved ones who are poor, often even more than I was. Poor in the sense of born poor, a life of labor into age 60 or 70 poor. I'm also aware that this isn't unique, lots of people out there are anywhere between very poor to obscenely indigent, so I and other poor or formerly poor people don't generally tend towards unabashed self pity. Because of that, this author's story just makes me roll my eyes. Here are some examples of what I mean: > WHITE: You know, I have all the props and credentials. I have a Harvard MBA. I have a master's in international studies from Hopkins. I went to Oberlin undergraduate. You know, I worked at the World Bank. > But if you paid attention, you would see the sadness in my eyes, hear that hint of fear in my otherwise self-assured voice. > You invite me to the same expensive restaurants that the two of us have always enjoyed. But I order mineral water now with a twist of lemon instead of the $12 glass of chardonnay. > There are no media stories about me. My slide out of the middle class is not sensational enough I can empathize that the change is difficult, but I won't cry for her having to skip a chardonnay that's worth more than what many people spend on food (or earn) in a day. She's obviously a very intelligent and accomplished person and almost certainly has connections; I'd rather save my attention and empathy for the people who don't have a list of degrees and accomplishments. So when I see people do respond to this kind of story, I can't help but wonder if they have ever personally experienced poverty, let alone the lifelong and encompassing poverty (in the sense that everyone around you is poor and you have no connections somewhere higher up) that I saw so often growing up.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

save_ferris 6y ago

The fear of "looking poor" is so real in the US, which makes it harder to see who's struggling. It also creates this cognitive dissonance I've noticed here on HN where an article gets posted with pictures of the extended lines at food banks and people point out that most people seem to be driving relatively new cars, therefore why are they in line at a food bank? I think a lot of people don't understand how poverty really looks because we're socially motivated to project wealth and status wherever we can.

powersnail 6y ago
Another aspect is that selling used stuff doesn’t bring much money in, especially clothing. I don’t even know whether it’s sellable. Apart from my car, if I sell all my belongings, I might get one month worth of rent. Hardly seems worth it, unless there is a way to use that money to earn more money.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Also can’t sell or trade your car to downgrade if you need a car, as if you need financing to get the next car, you’re not going to qualify for the loan if you’re without employment. Your car is a trailing indicator of your financial situation, not necessarily present state.
  - jeromegv 6y ago
    The fact that most jobs require a car is a huge deterrent for most low income people to actually find a job. Great public transit is not just something to help the poor, it's also a way to make workers be able to get to work, it's good for the economy and yet we look at it almost as charity.
    - souprock 6y ago
      Public transit spreads viruses, both old and new. It helped put us in this mess. It'll spread the next virus too. We have a huge problem if people get used to relying on a transportation method that needs to be shut down when a virus spreads.
  - ryathal 6y ago
    Financing cars is a poverty trap. There are cars in the 1-2k range that work perfectly fine and will reliably work with minimal maintenance, and there are sub 1k cars that run ok enough that you can use as a bridge to save enough for a slightly better car. Financing a car is a double whammy because you pay interest and have a deprecating asset. At the low end cars really don't deprecate much. The act of not having a car payment is a great first step to building wealth.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      Financing part of a $10,000 vehicle is incredibly cheap right now. A few hundred dollars total to borrow for several years.
      - ryathal 6y ago
        Financing a 10k car is "cheap" if you have decent credit and aren't rolling negative equity from another car into that. Using average rates it represents a 10-15% additional cost over the principal, and you end up with a car worth about half that. With a 60 month loan you "spent" $6-7k to have a car for those 5 years, if you keep it another 5 years the numbers look better.
- nradov 6y ago
  Charities barely even want used clothes donations any more. Only a few top designer labels have any significant resale value.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Charities barely even want used clothes donations any more. Only a few top designer labels have any significant resale value. Long ago, I volunteered once at a thrift store. IIRC, they actually bailed up a significant fraction of their clothing donations and sent them Africa.
bittercynic 6y ago
It is very real, but if you can somehow escape from it there are huge advantages. Not caring that we might look poor has been the biggest factor enabling me and my wife to build a good, stable life for ourselves while peers who out-earn us perpetually struggle on the brink of ruin.
- caeril 6y ago
  > but if you can somehow escape from it Not sure what you mean by this. There's nothing to escape from. The word we have for superficial consumerist social strivers who spend conspicuously to soothe their ego and signal their status is "asshole". Don't be an asshole. It's not that hard.
lumost 6y ago
cars made in the last 15 years don’t look that different from each other. You can purchase a 7-8 yo mass market vehicle for 2-6k that will run alright. Having used cars older than that as a daily driver, the cost of repairs/downtime outstrip the cost of replacing the vehicle more often than not. Not driving isn’t really an option in the US, and driving a clunker will raise some flags to coworkers/other parents in the parking lot. The other cash poor option is to grab a lease with good incentives, it’s a terrible deal - but it’s the best if you need to conserve cash flow month to month ( particularly if you can’t afford fixing a breakdown ) Which is all to say, if your poor - driving a half broken down car would be a terrible investment.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Glancing at craigslist here, the first 3 vehicles under $6000 are a 2010, a 2008 and a 2006. The low mileage of the group is 133,000. They are dealer listings also, so probably not the best deals, but there aren't many others at the price.
  - souprock 6y ago
    That is because the cash-for-clunkers program, intended to help the automobile industry, sent the older cars to be destroyed. We crushed perfectly usable vehicles. That's like breaking windows to help the glass industry; it is not so nice for the poor or for the environment.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      It was tiny (relative to the US vehicle market, ~700,000 vehicles vs ~15 million annually) and obviously didn't remove 2010+ cars from the market. Which those more recent vehicles are the vehicles the other poster alluded to, that I did not find with a real basic search.
    - skinnymuch 6y ago
      This is talking cars in last decade. Not cash for clunkers. Which likely isn’t a big enough of a dent to mess with cars made after it

silicon2401 6y ago

I always find myself surprised that people respond to this kind of writing. What part resonates with you? When I read this, I just roll my eyes at an author unabashedly looking to tug at heartstrings. I would be moved by a real person's story, but this not only is pure fantasy, it even creates a stereotype that all poor people are timid and frail. And again, I know some people do become broken by poverty, so why not share their real story?

eulers_secret 6y ago
I responded because I am empathetic. > What part resonates with you? Her losing her job, not being able to be re-hired at a similar salary, spending her savings, and winding up in poverty despite doing everything 'right'. At 55, she has an uphill battle to get another job. Why hire her when someone with 15 YOE costs less and will work for more than 5 years? Employees are not that unique. Ageism is also a large problem in tech, but we just don't talk about it much. How common is it to be on track to retire for 25+ years after aging out? What if someone forgot to change their 401(K) investment strategy and happen to be 'retired' (laid off due to age) during a market downturn? Does everyone know that's a thing you should do about 5 years before retirement? There are too many 'gotchas' that can seriously alter retirement plans. I think it is cruel to treat people this way, and I can see it happening to myself. Even if I do everything 'right' (and I certainly have not). That is what I respond to - the warning that even if you play your hand well, you can still lose and have miserable twilight years.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  I am also empathetic, but I find the author's writing in poor taste. She's still able to afford eating at expensive restaurants, but writes with the tone of a martyr because she has to get seltzer water instead of chardonnay. I grew up quite poor and still have loved ones who are poor, often even more than I was. Poor in the sense of born poor, a life of labor into age 60 or 70 poor. I'm also aware that this isn't unique, lots of people out there are anywhere between very poor to obscenely indigent, so I and other poor or formerly poor people don't generally tend towards unabashed self pity. Because of that, this author's story just makes me roll my eyes. Here are some examples of what I mean: > WHITE: You know, I have all the props and credentials. I have a Harvard MBA. I have a master's in international studies from Hopkins. I went to Oberlin undergraduate. You know, I worked at the World Bank. > But if you paid attention, you would see the sadness in my eyes, hear that hint of fear in my otherwise self-assured voice. > You invite me to the same expensive restaurants that the two of us have always enjoyed. But I order mineral water now with a twist of lemon instead of the $12 glass of chardonnay. > There are no media stories about me. My slide out of the middle class is not sensational enough I can empathize that the change is difficult, but I won't cry for her having to skip a chardonnay that's worth more than what many people spend on food (or earn) in a day. She's obviously a very intelligent and accomplished person and almost certainly has connections; I'd rather save my attention and empathy for the people who don't have a list of degrees and accomplishments. So when I see people do respond to this kind of story, I can't help but wonder if they have ever personally experienced poverty, let alone the lifelong and encompassing poverty (in the sense that everyone around you is poor and you have no connections somewhere higher up) that I saw so often growing up.