8 ms·

The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882)

54 points by avador 6y ago

sudhirj 6y ago
Is there a similar test psychiatrists or therapists use to understand their patients? Seems like the answer would reveal a lot about the person giving it.
- ordu 6y ago
  There are so called projective tests[1], with the basic premise to create a highly ambiguous situation, where there is a lot of freedom for a human. Also I could think about Kohlberg's dilemmas[2], and the most known one is "Heinz dilemma"[3]. To make a projective test from this story one needs to ask a few hundred of participants for answers, to look for patterns in answers, to form hypotheses how personal traits correlate with patterns in answers, then to run correlational study with an other group of participants. Maybe something would be found. Maybe not. To make something like Kohlberg's dilemmas one would need a theory to predict in advance patterns in answers without gathering the "live data". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_test [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma
pseingatl 6y ago
Recently made into a tv series called, The Undoing with Nicole Kidman and Hugh Grant.
- codeulike 6y ago
  I'm intruiged, what are the parallels between that series and this story?
  - pseingatl 6y ago
    Would a betrayed wife act out of compassion or revenge when given the chance to free or condemn her cheating husband?
mellosouls 6y ago
See also The Monty Hall and Sleeping Beauty Problems which seem to cover similar (or at least somewhat related) quandaries.
- codeulike 6y ago
  Related as in they involve doors?
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    It's a clear precursor in its framing, while this seems to be more of a psychological question. Edit: googled... https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/rob_eshman/117650/ https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/rob_eshman/1176...
    - codeulike 6y ago
      Ok that is quite interesting. 'Choose a door' is such a trope, its funny to think of it originating as recently as 1882.
- emmelaich 6y ago
  In particular ... https://www.amazon.com/Lady-Tiger-Other-Puzzles-Recreational/dp/048647027X/ https://www.amazon.com/Lady-Tiger-Other-Puzzles-Recreational... "The Lady or the Tiger?: and Other Logic Puzzles" by Raymond Smullyan
codeulike 6y ago
SPOILERS!!! Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. I don't need the undercurrents made clear to me - I can already see all that. I want an ending to the story. The more interesting angle is that the guy should realise that the princess might direct him to the wrong door. His thought process about it is much more interesting to me than my own as the reader. A 2020 version needs some extra twist at the end. The King, perhaps, knows his daughter all too well, and has put a wedding behind both doors. Or the Princess has loftier aims, and has secretly trained the tiger to attack the King, and usher in a new era of civility, but to do that (somehow or other ) she has to allow her love to marry someone else etc etc Still, I love that things people wrote in 1882 are now being zinged accross the world by a huge world-spanning machine made of billions of devices that people in 1882 would barely have been able to imagine. edit: drewzero1, elsewhere in this thread, reminds me of the They Might Be Giants song that looks at the situation from a much more 21st century perspective: http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQemVw2Lb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQemVw2Lb0
- imron 6y ago
  > Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. In the early 90's, my English teacher read this story to the class and it blew my teenage mind. It's been one of my favorite short stories ever since.
  - codeulike 6y ago
    Yes maybe as a teenager I would have experienced it differently.
  - r00fus 6y ago
    Was there a discussion afterward?
    - 6y ago
watwut 6y ago
The writing of that story was insufferable.
layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
People in 1882 must have been really patient. I was annoyed that I’ve spent 10 minutes reading a story that could have been conveyed in 5 sentences at most.
- falcor84 6y ago
  Please go ahead, it is in the public domain after all. Try to rephrase it in 5 sentences and see if people still share your version after more than a century.
- sp332 6y ago
  They had fewer things competing for their attention. What were you going to do in those 10 extra minutes, refresh Twitter again?
- azhu 6y ago
  Agreed. At this point in 2020, this much text for this elementary of a morality problem is a waste. I was really hoping for something more earth shattering than how humans have a hard time finding the bounds between themselves and others.
- james-skemp 6y ago
  Having read this in middle or high school (back in the 90s), and having picked up a copy of the book years later when I saw it at a Half Price Books, this comment makes me really sad. A 5 sentence version of this story would not have stayed with me the same way this did. Just like Aesop's Fables, or the Brothers Grimm, wouldn't have the impact on people/civilization in general if they had been just the moral of the story.
drewzero1 6y ago
I learned about this story from a They Might Be Giants song, told from the other side of the doors. The characters are bored waiting for the resolution of the story (Spoilers? forever). [] http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger
- codeulike 6y ago
  Aha! thank you. I'm a big TMBG fan but I'd never understood what this song was referring to.
the_gipsy 6y ago
Could the man take his faith in his own hands and chose the opposite door? Could someone on trial ignore the doors, to force the king to execute the decision?
- sp332 6y ago
  Sure, but that would describe someone with a different relationship. Knowing that they loved and trusted each other is important to the story.
  - pksebben 6y ago
    the story specifically leaves trust as an ambiguous quantity in that relationship. she obviously doesn't trust him. so, not only are we left to ponder her nature, but his relationship to her. does he take her suggestion at face value, assuming goodwill on her part, or does he expect her jealousy?
    - sp332 6y ago
      For her part, maybe you're right. But we're told that he immediately went to the door that she indicated.
Jenz 6y ago
Although the author is unwilling to state his answer, it's rather heavily implied she pointed him to the tiger. > How often, in her waking hours and in her dreams, had she started in wild horror, and covered her face with her hands as she thought of her lover opening the door on the other side of which waited the cruel fangs of the tiger! contra > But how much oftener had she seen him at the other door! How in her grievous reveries had she gnashed her teeth, and torn her hair, when she saw his start of rapturous delight as he opened the door of the lady! How her soul had burned in agony when she had seen him rush to meet that woman, with her flushing cheek and sparkling eye of triumph; [...]. It is also interesting to see the sprinkles of social Darwinism throughout out the story. > Had it not been for the moiety of barbarism in her nature, it is probable that lady would not have been there; but her intense and fervid soul would not allow her to be absent on an occasion in which she was so terribly interested.
felipemesquita 6y ago
Inspiration for a great They Might Be Giants song called “ The Lady and the Tiger”
self 6y ago
> I opened the door on the left, knowing it contained the tiger or the princess. As the tiger leapt on to me, I begged the King for a do-over. -- https://twitter.com/VeryShortStory/status/502108012501544960 https://twitter.com/VeryShortStory/status/502108012501544960 > To my surprise, the King agreed, and I opened the other door. Too late, as the princess leapt on me, I realized my mistake. -- https://twitter.com/VeryShortSequel/status/502108257528610816 https://twitter.com/VeryShortSequel/status/50210825752861081...
simonh 6y ago
If he believed the Princess truly loved him, he'd expect her to point to the door with the Lady behind it. However truly loving her, he would rather die than live without her, and would choose the door opposite to the one she indicated intending to die. On the other hand if he truly understood the depth of the Princess's jealousy and expected her to indicate the door with the Tiger, he would realise her cruelty and choose the door opposite to that she indicated, in order to forsake her and enjoy a happy life. So either way he should choose the other door.
syrrim 6y ago
One has to suppose it was the lady behind the door. The princess would choose which door to direct him to based on his love for her. If he truly loved her, she could not bear to see him torn apart. If he did not love her, she could not bear to see him move on to some other woman. In his turn, he must recognize that there is some chance that she is lying to him, that she has chosen to send him to his death. Yet he turns towards the exact door she has directed him to with complete faith and calm. There is no doubt whatsoever in his mind that she has chosen to let him live. If he had been the conniving sort, he might assume that the indicated door was the one containing the beast, and on this basis selected the opposite door. Indeed, he is still offered a choice, between faith and deception, whether to do as she says, or to turn away from it. On this basis, one assumes, she would direct him towards the door of salvation, knowing that he might choose to ignore her, and turn towards the door of certain doom instead. (There is a parallel here to C S Lewis' description of religious faith, if you are familiar with his writing)
- cleansingfire 6y ago
  He chose to trust his love. He was not certain she would save him, since she was not certain herself. He knew she was jealous. Her had a choice between a quick death and a life without his love (which I wouldn't romanticise, love being more complex than binary.) I don't know what he faced. I do know that I would choose to trust my love, and open her door, as an act of love and trust for us both to have, whatever the outcome.
simonblack 6y ago
Talking about ladies and tigers... There was a young lady of Niger Who smiled as she rode on a tiger. They returned from the ride With the lady inside, And the smile on the face of the tiger.

54 points by avador 6y ago

Is there a similar test psychiatrists or therapists use to understand their patients? Seems like the answer would reveal a lot about the person giving it.

ordu 6y ago
There are so called projective tests[1], with the basic premise to create a highly ambiguous situation, where there is a lot of freedom for a human. Also I could think about Kohlberg's dilemmas[2], and the most known one is "Heinz dilemma"[3]. To make a projective test from this story one needs to ask a few hundred of participants for answers, to look for patterns in answers, to form hypotheses how personal traits correlate with patterns in answers, then to run correlational study with an other group of participants. Maybe something would be found. Maybe not. To make something like Kohlberg's dilemmas one would need a theory to predict in advance patterns in answers without gathering the "live data". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_test [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma

pseingatl 6y ago

Recently made into a tv series called, The Undoing with Nicole Kidman and Hugh Grant.

codeulike 6y ago
I'm intruiged, what are the parallels between that series and this story?
- pseingatl 6y ago
  Would a betrayed wife act out of compassion or revenge when given the chance to free or condemn her cheating husband?

mellosouls 6y ago

See also The Monty Hall and Sleeping Beauty Problems which seem to cover similar (or at least somewhat related) quandaries.

codeulike 6y ago
Related as in they involve doors?
- mellosouls 6y ago
  It's a clear precursor in its framing, while this seems to be more of a psychological question. Edit: googled... https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/rob_eshman/117650/ https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/rob_eshman/1176...
  - codeulike 6y ago
    Ok that is quite interesting. 'Choose a door' is such a trope, its funny to think of it originating as recently as 1882.
emmelaich 6y ago
In particular ... https://www.amazon.com/Lady-Tiger-Other-Puzzles-Recreational/dp/048647027X/ https://www.amazon.com/Lady-Tiger-Other-Puzzles-Recreational... "The Lady or the Tiger?: and Other Logic Puzzles" by Raymond Smullyan

codeulike 6y ago

SPOILERS!!! Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. I don't need the undercurrents made clear to me - I can already see all that. I want an ending to the story. The more interesting angle is that the guy should realise that the princess might direct him to the wrong door. His thought process about it is much more interesting to me than my own as the reader. A 2020 version needs some extra twist at the end. The King, perhaps, knows his daughter all too well, and has put a wedding behind both doors. Or the Princess has loftier aims, and has secretly trained the tiger to attack the King, and usher in a new era of civility, but to do that (somehow or other ) she has to allow her love to marry someone else etc etc Still, I love that things people wrote in 1882 are now being zinged accross the world by a huge world-spanning machine made of billions of devices that people in 1882 would barely have been able to imagine. edit: drewzero1, elsewhere in this thread, reminds me of the They Might Be Giants song that looks at the situation from a much more 21st century perspective: http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQemVw2Lb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQemVw2Lb0

imron 6y ago
> Its interesting that in 1882 the authors refusal to give an ending would have been seen as challenging and innovative but to me in 2020 it seems like a cop-out. In the early 90's, my English teacher read this story to the class and it blew my teenage mind. It's been one of my favorite short stories ever since.
- codeulike 6y ago
  Yes maybe as a teenager I would have experienced it differently.
- r00fus 6y ago
  Was there a discussion afterward?
  - 6y ago

watwut 6y ago

The writing of that story was insufferable.

layoutIfNeeded 6y ago

People in 1882 must have been really patient. I was annoyed that I’ve spent 10 minutes reading a story that could have been conveyed in 5 sentences at most.

falcor84 6y ago
Please go ahead, it is in the public domain after all. Try to rephrase it in 5 sentences and see if people still share your version after more than a century.
sp332 6y ago
They had fewer things competing for their attention. What were you going to do in those 10 extra minutes, refresh Twitter again?
azhu 6y ago
Agreed. At this point in 2020, this much text for this elementary of a morality problem is a waste. I was really hoping for something more earth shattering than how humans have a hard time finding the bounds between themselves and others.
james-skemp 6y ago
Having read this in middle or high school (back in the 90s), and having picked up a copy of the book years later when I saw it at a Half Price Books, this comment makes me really sad. A 5 sentence version of this story would not have stayed with me the same way this did. Just like Aesop's Fables, or the Brothers Grimm, wouldn't have the impact on people/civilization in general if they had been just the moral of the story.

drewzero1 6y ago

I learned about this story from a They Might Be Giants song, told from the other side of the doors. The characters are bored waiting for the resolution of the story (Spoilers? forever). [] http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:The_Lady_And_The_Tiger

codeulike 6y ago
Aha! thank you. I'm a big TMBG fan but I'd never understood what this song was referring to.

the_gipsy 6y ago

Could the man take his faith in his own hands and chose the opposite door? Could someone on trial ignore the doors, to force the king to execute the decision?

sp332 6y ago
Sure, but that would describe someone with a different relationship. Knowing that they loved and trusted each other is important to the story.
- pksebben 6y ago
  the story specifically leaves trust as an ambiguous quantity in that relationship. she obviously doesn't trust him. so, not only are we left to ponder her nature, but his relationship to her. does he take her suggestion at face value, assuming goodwill on her part, or does he expect her jealousy?
  - sp332 6y ago
    For her part, maybe you're right. But we're told that he immediately went to the door that she indicated.

Jenz 6y ago

Although the author is unwilling to state his answer, it's rather heavily implied she pointed him to the tiger. > How often, in her waking hours and in her dreams, had she started in wild horror, and covered her face with her hands as she thought of her lover opening the door on the other side of which waited the cruel fangs of the tiger! contra > But how much oftener had she seen him at the other door! How in her grievous reveries had she gnashed her teeth, and torn her hair, when she saw his start of rapturous delight as he opened the door of the lady! How her soul had burned in agony when she had seen him rush to meet that woman, with her flushing cheek and sparkling eye of triumph; [...]. It is also interesting to see the sprinkles of social Darwinism throughout out the story. > Had it not been for the moiety of barbarism in her nature, it is probable that lady would not have been there; but her intense and fervid soul would not allow her to be absent on an occasion in which she was so terribly interested.

felipemesquita 6y ago

Inspiration for a great They Might Be Giants song called “ The Lady and the Tiger”

self 6y ago

> I opened the door on the left, knowing it contained the tiger or the princess. As the tiger leapt on to me, I begged the King for a do-over. -- https://twitter.com/VeryShortStory/status/502108012501544960 https://twitter.com/VeryShortStory/status/502108012501544960 > To my surprise, the King agreed, and I opened the other door. Too late, as the princess leapt on me, I realized my mistake. -- https://twitter.com/VeryShortSequel/status/502108257528610816 https://twitter.com/VeryShortSequel/status/50210825752861081...

simonh 6y ago

If he believed the Princess truly loved him, he'd expect her to point to the door with the Lady behind it. However truly loving her, he would rather die than live without her, and would choose the door opposite to the one she indicated intending to die. On the other hand if he truly understood the depth of the Princess's jealousy and expected her to indicate the door with the Tiger, he would realise her cruelty and choose the door opposite to that she indicated, in order to forsake her and enjoy a happy life. So either way he should choose the other door.

syrrim 6y ago

One has to suppose it was the lady behind the door. The princess would choose which door to direct him to based on his love for her. If he truly loved her, she could not bear to see him torn apart. If he did not love her, she could not bear to see him move on to some other woman. In his turn, he must recognize that there is some chance that she is lying to him, that she has chosen to send him to his death. Yet he turns towards the exact door she has directed him to with complete faith and calm. There is no doubt whatsoever in his mind that she has chosen to let him live. If he had been the conniving sort, he might assume that the indicated door was the one containing the beast, and on this basis selected the opposite door. Indeed, he is still offered a choice, between faith and deception, whether to do as she says, or to turn away from it. On this basis, one assumes, she would direct him towards the door of salvation, knowing that he might choose to ignore her, and turn towards the door of certain doom instead. (There is a parallel here to C S Lewis' description of religious faith, if you are familiar with his writing)

cleansingfire 6y ago
He chose to trust his love. He was not certain she would save him, since she was not certain herself. He knew she was jealous. Her had a choice between a quick death and a life without his love (which I wouldn't romanticise, love being more complex than binary.) I don't know what he faced. I do know that I would choose to trust my love, and open her door, as an act of love and trust for us both to have, whatever the outcome.

simonblack 6y ago

Talking about ladies and tigers... There was a young lady of Niger Who smiled as she rode on a tiger. They returned from the ride With the lady inside, And the smile on the face of the tiger.