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Facebook being investigated in Germany for tying Oculus use to Facebook accounts

752 points by Liriel 6y ago

lukeschlather 6y ago
The trouble is, this is really just them being honest. Within 6 months of acquiring Oculus they started pulling in data from their Oculus accounts and associating that with Facebook profiles based on email or whatever identifiers they can use. Requiring Facebook accounts is just being transparent about the fact that Facebook maintains a profile for you which crosses all of their systems whether you have accounts or not. I hope the EU addresses the root of the issue and starts cracking down on the shadow profile stuff.
- rv-de 6y ago
  so, you mean a thief who goes to the police to honestly declare what she stole should be entitled to keep the stuff?
  - pyhtel 6y ago
    He didn't say FB shouldn't be hit with an antitrust probe, in your analogy it would be actively tracking thieves down instead of waiting for the thief to voluntarily turn himself in
  - laumars 6y ago
    That wasn’t the GPs point. The GP was saying that the real root of the problem isn’t Oculus’s mandatory FB login but rather that FB is allowed to harvest and link profiles across multiple devices to begin with.
- Tactic 6y ago
  Counter-point; that was a one-way street. Data was potentially fed from Oculus to Facebook. Now, what you do on Facebook can impact your Oculus use. Get banned on Facebook and lose access to your purchased software on Oculus effectively making your device useless. So now it is worse.
gravypod 6y ago
If this separates Oculus into it's own company I'd probably buy one of the new headsets. The things Facebook is doing here definitely detracts from the product. I don't have to give Logitech my drivers license to plug in a mouse.
- londev 6y ago
  Same here. I was tempted to buy one until I read about the guy who’s device is useless as Facebook banned him.
  - vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
    I mean try using a smartphone with a banned apple or google account. A PS5 is a brick if sony bans your account. This is standard industry practice
    - effingwewt 6y ago
      All of which need to be illegal years ago. France is streets ahead here. Pointing to other shit companies that are known for anti'consumer practices doesn't help your argument.
    - tripzilch 6y ago
      First, it is not at all standard industry practice, because only the largest players can get away with it. Second, what is "standard industry practice" is exactly how ethical we force corporations to be. FB, as a mindless corporation has it built into its very being to be unable to consider ethics and optimize profits on the edge of legality. However, what the hell is your excuse, trying to normalise such behaviour as "standard industry practice" ??
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  Same here. As well as for family members.
- amelius 6y ago
  Yes!
ananonymoususer 6y ago
Where is the suit against Google for doing the same thing with Nest? I will not be holding my breath.
- _iyig 6y ago
  While there are concerning similarities, Google backed off from their “real names” policy years ago. Facebook continues to enforce such a policy despite its much-noted dangers and disparities [0], while also more aggressively (compared to Google) banning users for having multiple accounts, making posts Facebook doesn’t like, or not behaving like a “real user” according to their entirely opaque algorithms. In my direct personal experience as an Oculus/Facebook/Google account-holder, Facebook’s polices have had a much larger negative impact on consumers. I’m glad they are the (first) target of this probe. [0] https://boingboing.net/tag/real-names https://boingboing.net/tag/real-names
- the-dude 6y ago
  What is your point? That Germany is biased against FB, but not Google? Or the EU? Or regulators in general? The EU has hit Google with considerable fines already.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Might still be coming... But a particular bad mark in Facebook's case was Palmer stating, as a representative of the company, that they would never require a Facebook account. Consumers might've bought the product based on that statement.
  - metalliqaz 6y ago
    Palmer wasn't lying when he said that. Facebook was lying to Palmer. Of course, savvy users didn't believe him anyway. Zuck: "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it further."
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      Who was lying isn't material. That Palmer clearly stated Facebook authorized him to make that commitment is all that matters. So it's very hard for Facebook to now go around and claim they didn't promise that. Palmer, at the time, acting on behalf of Facebook, made that promise. And that probably puts this case in a much more solid legal territory than, for example, Nest.
jimrandomh 6y ago
The worst part of the Facebook/Oculus integration is that there's no way to log out--you can't even revoke the login remotely via the Facebook settings page which can do that for any other device--so anyone who has access to your headset has access to your Facebook account and your Messenger history, forever. With Quest 1, which had a separate account system, I would frequently show off the headset by letting people try it on. With Quest 2, anyone who tries it on would have full access to my Facebook account and Messenger history, so I can't do that. And no, they don't give you any sort of warning about this, you have to figure it out yourself. (I reported this to their bug bounty program on October 26. The submission was rejected as a duplicate. I rechecked today and it was still not fixed.)
- btown 6y ago
  Clearly not being able to log out is a feature, not a bug. Mother Facebook is looking out for you by ensuring you're incentivized not to share your hardware with other people. After all, who knows what nefarious things they might do to it! And you wouldn't even be able to hang out with them in VR! If they wanted a headset, they should just get their own. But, you might say, what if they can't afford to get their own Oculus? Facebook, aren't you just limiting your own audience by having this policy? Trust us, we've thought of everything. With the new Oculus Direct program, you can just tell your friends they can rent-to-own a headset at $0 down, 0% APR for 12 months. And as a Oculus Direct Ohana Team Member, you can even get a credit to your own Oculus bill for every new user who signs up for Oculus Direct from your referrals, as well as a credit for every new user they sign up, and so on! And if you grow your network wide enough, you can build that network into a business! Contact us for more details about the benefits of joining the Oculus Direct Ohana!
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    You're assuming that there is a coherent driving force here. I suspect that its more a case that they literally haven't thought about it.
    - jjulius 6y ago
eightysixfour 6y ago
Quite a few horror stories on the forums/reddit of people having their facebook account banned for "no reason" which then locks them out of their Quest and all of their purchases. It can still be used with the link cable to a computer, but is otherwise basically bricked. Buying one if you don't have a facebook account is even worse, you have to create one which they inevitably decide is a bot and then ban it.
- dannyw 6y ago
  The funny thing is Oculus reps (now deleted) telling people to create a separate Facebook account for Oculus, and those accounts getting permanently banned with no recourse because it's against Facebook's ToS to have multiple accounts.
  - leppr 6y ago
    Creating fresh accounts for devices requiring them should be standard practice, and companies not allowing this boycotted. When you buy an Android phone, Google gives you a "free" account if you chose to create one (no phone number verification needed). EDIT: Or not, apparently. Might only work with some whitelisted manufacturers. Boycott Google too I guess.
    - taylorfinley 6y ago
      This has not been my experience for either of my last two Android phones, Google would not create an account without verifying a phone number. Their support forum recommended using a land line or borrowing a friend's phone.
      - leppr 6y ago
        That's sad to hear. The situation with smartphones is magnitudes worse than VR headsets. First, VR headsets have competitive consumer-respecting alternatives (Valve Index), second, they are for now purely an entertainment device, while smartphones are semi-required to competitively function in modern society. I'm surprised no government has yet tried to address the harmful smartphone OS duopoly, the only worthwhile initiatives are from unbacked Open-Source hackers.
hellweaver666 6y ago
Google have done exactly the same thing with Nest. They removed the integration with Alexa unless you migrated to a Google account.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Is that why I can't control it from my Alexa anymore?! I didn't really pay attention, I just knew it stopped working and never really looked into fixing it. That's frustrating.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  They also removed integration with countless third party devices IF you migrated to Google account. They pushed new accounts before they even had any integration ready at all. More than a year later, majority of integrations are still not available.
- tim44 6y ago
  these smart home devices are terrible. That alexa needs an internet connection to operate sucks. I'm already giving up tons of privacy and now when my internet inevitably goes down nothing in my house works, it becomes a stupid home.
DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
It seems like the pace of antitrust actions by U.S. federal government and U.S. states has suddenly ramped up quite a bit. And now we have this, albeit from the German government. Anyone know why these are all happening at once?
- tyleo 6y ago
  In the US at least I believe Trump wanted to campaign on the issue and pressured the AG to investigate large tech companies. As I recall many of the investigations weren't complete enough to make the news until nearly election day (this was a point of contention between Trump and the AG2. There might be a few more of these in the works.
- pydry 6y ago
  Trump doesn't like Facebook. Antitrust overall is a sensible vector of attack. Separating Instagram into a different company could fuck them up. This lawsuit doesn't look like the most sensible mode of attack on the company itself though. Oculus is not strategic. They could sell it and it probably wouldn't bother them. Its not Instagram. I expect the DOJ is conscious that while their current boss doesn't like Facebook, their incoming boss does. So, this appears designed to look aggressive enough to appease Trump while he still has the power to dismiss but toothless enough to fizzle or cause minimal damage once he's gone. I'm half expecting all the tech antitrust lawsuits to just be dropped quietly a month or two after Biden enters office. Either way the tech companies are not really under threat here. Facebook won't cry over losing oculus.
  - ekanes 6y ago
    Oculus is incredibly strategic. There is a very high chance that much of the work world (certainly all knowledge creation jobs) will transition to VR within a decade. Seems improbable from here, but just walking the tech forwards in predictable ways and you see it. Lighter, better resolution, etc. Being the dominant platform when(ever) that happens is wildly strategic.
  - permo-w 6y ago
    The Oculus part is from the German govt
wkirby 6y ago
Good. I love developing for the Quest, but I haven't recommended it to anyone since the change.
cambalache 6y ago
I would say at this point in history if you tie yourself in any form to companies like Facebook, Google or Amazon and later you are screwed over, you should consider a career on masochism.
- rblatz 6y ago
  I’m tied to all 3, it’s fine. The people wringing their hands and obsessing over it seem more masochistic to me. I have all my email in docs in google, I have something like 7 echo’s scattered around the house, I have a Facebook Portal and a Quest 2. All of these things make my life easier or bring joy into it. Avoiding these things would make my life measurably worse. I am disappointed that Apple, as the most privacy conscious of the group, sadly hasn’t built any real competitors to any of these devices.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    You do you, but if: > Avoiding these things would make my life measurably worse. is true,I dont envy your life at all.
    - kybernetikos 6y ago
      Aside from your response being rather unkind, I don't think we can dismiss the meat of his point so easily. I avoid most of these things to the extent I am reasonably able. I use a minority email provider, mapping provider, cloud storage provider, backup provider, webdav, caldav, browser (on desktop and mobile), search engine, ebook reader, lock down my android phone in various ways to diminish google's control of it (my work uses Google so to be employed by my current employer I must use google), don't have a facebook account or a twitter account, try to use windows with most of the reporting back turned off and accounts signed out, don't use voice assistants at all, etc. I think it's the right thing to do, and generally I think it's a good idea to use non dominant service providers as a way to encourage competition. All this, and I'm sure all the big companies have huge amounts of data about me from when I mess up or from how my life impinges on other people who are more thoroughly tracked. This definitely makes my life significantly more complex, and various things that are trivial for others are a bit of a palaver for me and for many people I know it'd be completely unreasonable. It's a trade off I've decided to make, but the comment you are referring to highlights the convenience, and I don't think it's wrong.
pb77 6y ago
The scary thing is eye tracking data which could be used to figure out effective decision strategies and could be used to place more compelling ads. When this information along with facebook( used for oculus login), instagram and data they get from google, I would be spammed with all kinds of things. I am hoping for nice privacy based VR headset but looks like most companies grade eye tracking data.
- willis936 6y ago
  The cost of less nefarious data collection is... 1000 USD. I'm glad there is competition in this space, but for average person 1000 USD is too much for a toy. I bought an oculus CV1 used on ebay a few years ago when there was a lull in demand. It's fun, but the second they demand a facebook login it permanently goes on the shelf. Rather unfortunate, but hey maybe one day VR toys will be accessible to non-elites without having to buy into a cyberpunk dystopia (ie if a more benevolent competitor releases cheaper hardware).
  - gravypod 6y ago
    The sad thing is that the Quest has other benefits that, to me, make it worth more than the Index. This video covers some of the magic that's possible with the Quest [0]. Before the Quest was in people's hands I was constantly getting shot down when I was saying: 1. Inside-out tracking is the future. 2. Detaching from the desktop and playing on the go is a huge feature (tetherless). 3. Hand tracking will re-imagine HCI Everyone I know, some of whom are very big Valve fans, would tell me that "fidelity is more important" and "outside-in is fundamentally better and will always be better". That's simply not true as evidenced by the new headset from Facebook. Multiple studios have completely switched to developing for the Quest 2 as the standard. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi6qqWzThlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi6qqWzThlI
- metalliqaz 6y ago
  While I agree that it's a bit scary, I don't understand when you say "I would be spammed with all kinds of things". We are already spammed with all kinds of things. I mean that's no big deal at all. The real dystopian future we need to worry about is when my activity on Facebook affects things such as a shadow credit score and medical history being used by potential employers, police, extortionists, etc.
rv-de 6y ago
Finally - can't wait to buy the unfacebooked edition.
- permo-w 6y ago
  My thinking is that it's best to buy it now, while Facebook is still selling them at or below cost, then install whatever root, or hacked OS, or legally enforced update comes out in the future
sorenso 6y ago
Facebook doesn't care about any PC Gamer on this website. Get that through your mind. They only care about the Facebook crowd who play casual games.
underseacables 6y ago
I’ve avoided using our Oculus ever since this announcement was made. I don’t want to tie it to a Facebook account. So for now it’s just a glorious $500 paperweight
exabrial 6y ago
Excellent. I'm hoping they have to spin off Instagram and WhatsApp. Hoping Google experiences the same fate. Need to decouple my phone from Google assistant and many other things... for instance, you can't subscribe to a podcast in their app unless you turn on Physical Location Tracking and Web History. Android Auto no longer reads back messages to you (it used to) unless you do the same thing.
- fartcannon 6y ago
  You can already degoogle if you choose a device that can run Lineage OS and F-Droid.
- FreakyT 6y ago
  Reminds me of my pet peeve in Google Maps: it used to have local search history, but when they moved it to the cloud, they removed _all_ search history unless you opted into the Web History. You know, Google, there's a middle ground.
- rurp 6y ago
  Google is usually savvy about their data hoarding, but they really tip their hand in cases like this where they require unnecessary permissions for basic functionality to work. The one that gets me is adding a label to a saved place in Maps. I can save the location fine and add it to whatever list I create for it, but if I want to add a simple custom label it blocks me because I don't have Web & App Activity tracking turned on.
- arc0 6y ago
  Is WhatsApp a profitable business on its own? What happens if they are forced to spin out and then go bankrupt?
metalliqaz 6y ago
Facebook used Oculus as a test to see what they could get away with. They are eyeing more profitable platforms like Instagram, and probably other things such as integrated cell phones. Sucks for Oculus, they had a good thing going before Zuck raped them.
908087 6y ago
Nice to hear some good news for once. I hadn't been following the situation before ordering one, and stupidly took a chance on ordering a Facebook product to kill boredom. Returned it as soon as I found out I'd need a FB account to use it.
djsumdog 6y ago
I have a Go that I only use for videos (Skybox). Are these device OEM unlockable, or are there any 3rd party roms for these devices? It'd be great if the installed Android system could be replaced by something truly open.
kzrdude 6y ago
Could Carmack say anything inside Occulus to bring some sanity to this?
- SSLy 6y ago
  No Engineer, no matter how smart, can sway a corporation directed by a political culture that has non-feature goals.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ryandrake 6y ago
This really needs to go farther. As a purchaser of any product, I should not need to create an Internet account with the manufacturer, in order to use or continue to use a product. Once I buy it, it should be mine. I don't want to have this ongoing relationship with your company. This trend of companies making you tether yourselves to them in order to use a product you paid for has to end. I'm not a huge fan of regulating tech, but need some kind of "Right To Use" law that says once you buy something, it's yours and you don't need to connect to the manufacturer to use it, and the manufacturer can't revoke your right to use it.
- jariel 6y ago
  "I should not need to create an Internet account with the manufacturer, in order to use or continue to use a product. " This is a nice sentiment, but probably not possible given the reality of the interconnected nature of everything. The tech generally 'needs' the internet to work. The issues are: 1) FB requires your so-called 'real identity' which is something fundamentally different than an e-mail address. 2) Related to 1, they ban a lot, for various reasons. Those things nee to be disentangled. I wonder if the US/DE regulators are going to be smart enough to do something specific because if their redress is too wide, their going to put a zillion businesses in a very grey area. Thoughtful clarity would be nice.
  - kybernetikos 6y ago
    Banning accounts that are the sole way a user has to access things they have 'purchased' should be made illegal. If that causes problems because it's also tied to a social media account, then that's an argument for social media companies keeping it separate. Imagine if a car I'd bought stopped working because I stuck a 'Find my lost cat' poster up somewhere it wasn't supposed to be.
    - jariel 6y ago
      A car is not a service. It doesn't need an account. Most things these days are service-related and absolutely need 'accounts'. Like your XBox. Occulus will invariably require some kind of 'account'. 'Accounts' are not evil.
companyhen 6y ago
I have an Oculus 1 and can't add any friends unless I link a Facebook account, so I've just been enjoying playing Beat Saber and a few other games "off the grid".
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
drummer 6y ago
And now Facebook is getting into payments. Good luck getting to your funds when Facebook bans you.
- everfree 6y ago
  At least the regulators are very keen on that one. They've been having a lot of trouble getting into that space.
dboreham 6y ago
Well that was worth it. I'd love to see the recording of the meeting where they came up with the plan. I'll bet someone said "hey that's evil, users won't like that". Would be nice to know a) who spoke next and b) what they said. Or we can guess...
Beached 6y ago
I sure hope something happens, I wanted to buy an oculus this xmas for myself, but I left facebook in 2011, and all this facebook drama with the oculus accounts getting banned for no reason and having to have a Facebook account was the sole reason I did not. now I'm looking into who the next best vr option is.
paxys 6y ago
ALL online account requirements for hardware need to be investigated. Speakers, televisions, doorbells, watches, freaking weighing scales. If you purchase something, it should work as advertised without having to sign over your life via a lengthy ToS, and shouldn't become a brick when the company decides to shut down a random server.
Triv888 6y ago
Looks like Facebook didn't pay the proper bribes AKA lobbying fees
SkyMarshal 6y ago
Product tying was one of the reasons for the Microsoft anti-trust trial in the 90’s. Iirc you can obtain a monopoly in one product legally by out-competing your competition, but you can’t obtain another monopoly in another product by tying the second product to the legal monopoly product. MS built Internet Explorer into Windows to remove users’ need for a third-party browser like Netscape. And they did some contractual tying of Office to Windows too iirc. https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-fact https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-f... So it should be no surprise that DoJ may have problems with attempts to tie Occulus to Facebook’s legal monopoly product.
disown 6y ago
I don't get why facebook would even forcibly tie oculus to facebook accounts. All they had to do was "encourage" oculus owners to use facebook via various dark patterns, network effect or incentives. I bet they could have gotten 90% of oculus owners to use facebook accounts without much effort. Was that other 10% so important that they were willing to risk regulatory action? Was it greed? Hubris? Though I guess you could argue that VR is still in its infancy and there is no reason for any antitrust action. But why risk it?
Legion 6y ago
I hope HP expands their reach in the VR space and provides more alternatives. They have a winner on their hands with the Reverb G2. I'd like to see them dip their toe into the standalone headset market.
mechnesium 6y ago
How is this different from Apple/Google requiring iPhone/Android users to create iCloud/Google accounts to use most features on the phones? They should be subject to similar probes.
blackrock 6y ago
Ugh. I was interested in VR, until Facebook bought out Oculus.
- nomel 6y ago
  PC VR, and even PlayStation VR (with many PSVR2 patents), is alive and well.
paranorman 6y ago
I loved my Quest, even purchased prescription lens inserts for a better experience and after the Facebook account change I stopped using it entirely. Pretty sad to have it collect dust but this change was bad enough that I’d rather just give it up altogether.
mrfusion 6y ago
Could this change anything in the states?
zmmmmm 6y ago
It's a weird situation because from a competition point of view I don't think Facebook doing this makes either Facebook or Oculus particularly more dominant. It's actually a negative for the VR offering. At best one can say, would another social network have a chance to compete with Facebook on Oculus when the user is already linked via their Facebook account? Probably its harder but quantitatively very hard to prove. In reality the competition concerns are secondary to what is really a consumer rights issue: people are buying a good that can be rendered functionality inoperable at any time in the future by completely unrelated actions pertaining to their Facebook account. This doesn't just apply to the headset but possibly hundreds of dollars of apps they have bought. I don't know how this gets resolved at the moment when the only regulatory mechanism to enforce it is competition law where the concerns are minor (at least for now).
dpumpshitlord 6y ago
Will somebody blow this stupid fucking company up already. Jesus. Their secret sauce is exploiting women via deliberately creating personality disorders

752 points by Liriel 6y ago

The trouble is, this is really just them being honest. Within 6 months of acquiring Oculus they started pulling in data from their Oculus accounts and associating that with Facebook profiles based on email or whatever identifiers they can use. Requiring Facebook accounts is just being transparent about the fact that Facebook maintains a profile for you which crosses all of their systems whether you have accounts or not. I hope the EU addresses the root of the issue and starts cracking down on the shadow profile stuff.

rv-de 6y ago
so, you mean a thief who goes to the police to honestly declare what she stole should be entitled to keep the stuff?
- pyhtel 6y ago
  He didn't say FB shouldn't be hit with an antitrust probe, in your analogy it would be actively tracking thieves down instead of waiting for the thief to voluntarily turn himself in
- laumars 6y ago
  That wasn’t the GPs point. The GP was saying that the real root of the problem isn’t Oculus’s mandatory FB login but rather that FB is allowed to harvest and link profiles across multiple devices to begin with.
Tactic 6y ago
Counter-point; that was a one-way street. Data was potentially fed from Oculus to Facebook. Now, what you do on Facebook can impact your Oculus use. Get banned on Facebook and lose access to your purchased software on Oculus effectively making your device useless. So now it is worse.

gravypod 6y ago

If this separates Oculus into it's own company I'd probably buy one of the new headsets. The things Facebook is doing here definitely detracts from the product. I don't have to give Logitech my drivers license to plug in a mouse.

londev 6y ago
Same here. I was tempted to buy one until I read about the guy who’s device is useless as Facebook banned him.
- vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
  I mean try using a smartphone with a banned apple or google account. A PS5 is a brick if sony bans your account. This is standard industry practice
  - effingwewt 6y ago
    All of which need to be illegal years ago. France is streets ahead here. Pointing to other shit companies that are known for anti'consumer practices doesn't help your argument.
  - tripzilch 6y ago
    First, it is not at all standard industry practice, because only the largest players can get away with it. Second, what is "standard industry practice" is exactly how ethical we force corporations to be. FB, as a mindless corporation has it built into its very being to be unable to consider ethics and optimize profits on the edge of legality. However, what the hell is your excuse, trying to normalise such behaviour as "standard industry practice" ??
klmadfejno 6y ago
Same here. As well as for family members.
amelius 6y ago
Yes!

ananonymoususer 6y ago

Where is the suit against Google for doing the same thing with Nest? I will not be holding my breath.

_iyig 6y ago
While there are concerning similarities, Google backed off from their “real names” policy years ago. Facebook continues to enforce such a policy despite its much-noted dangers and disparities [0], while also more aggressively (compared to Google) banning users for having multiple accounts, making posts Facebook doesn’t like, or not behaving like a “real user” according to their entirely opaque algorithms. In my direct personal experience as an Oculus/Facebook/Google account-holder, Facebook’s polices have had a much larger negative impact on consumers. I’m glad they are the (first) target of this probe. [0] https://boingboing.net/tag/real-names https://boingboing.net/tag/real-names
the-dude 6y ago
What is your point? That Germany is biased against FB, but not Google? Or the EU? Or regulators in general? The EU has hit Google with considerable fines already.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Might still be coming... But a particular bad mark in Facebook's case was Palmer stating, as a representative of the company, that they would never require a Facebook account. Consumers might've bought the product based on that statement.
- metalliqaz 6y ago
  Palmer wasn't lying when he said that. Facebook was lying to Palmer. Of course, savvy users didn't believe him anyway. Zuck: "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it further."
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    Who was lying isn't material. That Palmer clearly stated Facebook authorized him to make that commitment is all that matters. So it's very hard for Facebook to now go around and claim they didn't promise that. Palmer, at the time, acting on behalf of Facebook, made that promise. And that probably puts this case in a much more solid legal territory than, for example, Nest.

jimrandomh 6y ago

The worst part of the Facebook/Oculus integration is that there's no way to log out--you can't even revoke the login remotely via the Facebook settings page which can do that for any other device--so anyone who has access to your headset has access to your Facebook account and your Messenger history, forever. With Quest 1, which had a separate account system, I would frequently show off the headset by letting people try it on. With Quest 2, anyone who tries it on would have full access to my Facebook account and Messenger history, so I can't do that. And no, they don't give you any sort of warning about this, you have to figure it out yourself. (I reported this to their bug bounty program on October 26. The submission was rejected as a duplicate. I rechecked today and it was still not fixed.)

btown 6y ago
Clearly not being able to log out is a feature, not a bug. Mother Facebook is looking out for you by ensuring you're incentivized not to share your hardware with other people. After all, who knows what nefarious things they might do to it! And you wouldn't even be able to hang out with them in VR! If they wanted a headset, they should just get their own. But, you might say, what if they can't afford to get their own Oculus? Facebook, aren't you just limiting your own audience by having this policy? Trust us, we've thought of everything. With the new Oculus Direct program, you can just tell your friends they can rent-to-own a headset at $0 down, 0% APR for 12 months. And as a Oculus Direct Ohana Team Member, you can even get a credit to your own Oculus bill for every new user who signs up for Oculus Direct from your referrals, as well as a credit for every new user they sign up, and so on! And if you grow your network wide enough, you can build that network into a business! Contact us for more details about the benefits of joining the Oculus Direct Ohana!
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  You're assuming that there is a coherent driving force here. I suspect that its more a case that they literally haven't thought about it.
  - jjulius 6y ago

eightysixfour 6y ago

Quite a few horror stories on the forums/reddit of people having their facebook account banned for "no reason" which then locks them out of their Quest and all of their purchases. It can still be used with the link cable to a computer, but is otherwise basically bricked. Buying one if you don't have a facebook account is even worse, you have to create one which they inevitably decide is a bot and then ban it.

dannyw 6y ago
The funny thing is Oculus reps (now deleted) telling people to create a separate Facebook account for Oculus, and those accounts getting permanently banned with no recourse because it's against Facebook's ToS to have multiple accounts.
- leppr 6y ago
  Creating fresh accounts for devices requiring them should be standard practice, and companies not allowing this boycotted. When you buy an Android phone, Google gives you a "free" account if you chose to create one (no phone number verification needed). EDIT: Or not, apparently. Might only work with some whitelisted manufacturers. Boycott Google too I guess.
  - taylorfinley 6y ago
    This has not been my experience for either of my last two Android phones, Google would not create an account without verifying a phone number. Their support forum recommended using a land line or borrowing a friend's phone.
    - leppr 6y ago
      That's sad to hear. The situation with smartphones is magnitudes worse than VR headsets. First, VR headsets have competitive consumer-respecting alternatives (Valve Index), second, they are for now purely an entertainment device, while smartphones are semi-required to competitively function in modern society. I'm surprised no government has yet tried to address the harmful smartphone OS duopoly, the only worthwhile initiatives are from unbacked Open-Source hackers.

hellweaver666 6y ago

Google have done exactly the same thing with Nest. They removed the integration with Alexa unless you migrated to a Google account.

jedberg 6y ago
Is that why I can't control it from my Alexa anymore?! I didn't really pay attention, I just knew it stopped working and never really looked into fixing it. That's frustrating.
justapassenger 6y ago
They also removed integration with countless third party devices IF you migrated to Google account. They pushed new accounts before they even had any integration ready at all. More than a year later, majority of integrations are still not available.
tim44 6y ago
these smart home devices are terrible. That alexa needs an internet connection to operate sucks. I'm already giving up tons of privacy and now when my internet inevitably goes down nothing in my house works, it becomes a stupid home.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago

It seems like the pace of antitrust actions by U.S. federal government and U.S. states has suddenly ramped up quite a bit. And now we have this, albeit from the German government. Anyone know why these are all happening at once?

tyleo 6y ago
In the US at least I believe Trump wanted to campaign on the issue and pressured the AG to investigate large tech companies. As I recall many of the investigations weren't complete enough to make the news until nearly election day (this was a point of contention between Trump and the AG2. There might be a few more of these in the works.
pydry 6y ago
Trump doesn't like Facebook. Antitrust overall is a sensible vector of attack. Separating Instagram into a different company could fuck them up. This lawsuit doesn't look like the most sensible mode of attack on the company itself though. Oculus is not strategic. They could sell it and it probably wouldn't bother them. Its not Instagram. I expect the DOJ is conscious that while their current boss doesn't like Facebook, their incoming boss does. So, this appears designed to look aggressive enough to appease Trump while he still has the power to dismiss but toothless enough to fizzle or cause minimal damage once he's gone. I'm half expecting all the tech antitrust lawsuits to just be dropped quietly a month or two after Biden enters office. Either way the tech companies are not really under threat here. Facebook won't cry over losing oculus.
- ekanes 6y ago
  Oculus is incredibly strategic. There is a very high chance that much of the work world (certainly all knowledge creation jobs) will transition to VR within a decade. Seems improbable from here, but just walking the tech forwards in predictable ways and you see it. Lighter, better resolution, etc. Being the dominant platform when(ever) that happens is wildly strategic.
- permo-w 6y ago
  The Oculus part is from the German govt

wkirby 6y ago

Good. I love developing for the Quest, but I haven't recommended it to anyone since the change.

cambalache 6y ago

I would say at this point in history if you tie yourself in any form to companies like Facebook, Google or Amazon and later you are screwed over, you should consider a career on masochism.

rblatz 6y ago
I’m tied to all 3, it’s fine. The people wringing their hands and obsessing over it seem more masochistic to me. I have all my email in docs in google, I have something like 7 echo’s scattered around the house, I have a Facebook Portal and a Quest 2. All of these things make my life easier or bring joy into it. Avoiding these things would make my life measurably worse. I am disappointed that Apple, as the most privacy conscious of the group, sadly hasn’t built any real competitors to any of these devices.
- cambalache 6y ago
  You do you, but if: > Avoiding these things would make my life measurably worse. is true,I dont envy your life at all.
  - kybernetikos 6y ago
    Aside from your response being rather unkind, I don't think we can dismiss the meat of his point so easily. I avoid most of these things to the extent I am reasonably able. I use a minority email provider, mapping provider, cloud storage provider, backup provider, webdav, caldav, browser (on desktop and mobile), search engine, ebook reader, lock down my android phone in various ways to diminish google's control of it (my work uses Google so to be employed by my current employer I must use google), don't have a facebook account or a twitter account, try to use windows with most of the reporting back turned off and accounts signed out, don't use voice assistants at all, etc. I think it's the right thing to do, and generally I think it's a good idea to use non dominant service providers as a way to encourage competition. All this, and I'm sure all the big companies have huge amounts of data about me from when I mess up or from how my life impinges on other people who are more thoroughly tracked. This definitely makes my life significantly more complex, and various things that are trivial for others are a bit of a palaver for me and for many people I know it'd be completely unreasonable. It's a trade off I've decided to make, but the comment you are referring to highlights the convenience, and I don't think it's wrong.

pb77 6y ago

The scary thing is eye tracking data which could be used to figure out effective decision strategies and could be used to place more compelling ads. When this information along with facebook( used for oculus login), instagram and data they get from google, I would be spammed with all kinds of things. I am hoping for nice privacy based VR headset but looks like most companies grade eye tracking data.

willis936 6y ago
The cost of less nefarious data collection is... 1000 USD. I'm glad there is competition in this space, but for average person 1000 USD is too much for a toy. I bought an oculus CV1 used on ebay a few years ago when there was a lull in demand. It's fun, but the second they demand a facebook login it permanently goes on the shelf. Rather unfortunate, but hey maybe one day VR toys will be accessible to non-elites without having to buy into a cyberpunk dystopia (ie if a more benevolent competitor releases cheaper hardware).
- gravypod 6y ago
  The sad thing is that the Quest has other benefits that, to me, make it worth more than the Index. This video covers some of the magic that's possible with the Quest [0]. Before the Quest was in people's hands I was constantly getting shot down when I was saying: 1. Inside-out tracking is the future. 2. Detaching from the desktop and playing on the go is a huge feature (tetherless). 3. Hand tracking will re-imagine HCI Everyone I know, some of whom are very big Valve fans, would tell me that "fidelity is more important" and "outside-in is fundamentally better and will always be better". That's simply not true as evidenced by the new headset from Facebook. Multiple studios have completely switched to developing for the Quest 2 as the standard. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi6qqWzThlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi6qqWzThlI
metalliqaz 6y ago
While I agree that it's a bit scary, I don't understand when you say "I would be spammed with all kinds of things". We are already spammed with all kinds of things. I mean that's no big deal at all. The real dystopian future we need to worry about is when my activity on Facebook affects things such as a shadow credit score and medical history being used by potential employers, police, extortionists, etc.

rv-de 6y ago

Finally - can't wait to buy the unfacebooked edition.

permo-w 6y ago
My thinking is that it's best to buy it now, while Facebook is still selling them at or below cost, then install whatever root, or hacked OS, or legally enforced update comes out in the future

sorenso 6y ago

Facebook doesn't care about any PC Gamer on this website. Get that through your mind. They only care about the Facebook crowd who play casual games.

underseacables 6y ago

I’ve avoided using our Oculus ever since this announcement was made. I don’t want to tie it to a Facebook account. So for now it’s just a glorious $500 paperweight

exabrial 6y ago

Excellent. I'm hoping they have to spin off Instagram and WhatsApp. Hoping Google experiences the same fate. Need to decouple my phone from Google assistant and many other things... for instance, you can't subscribe to a podcast in their app unless you turn on Physical Location Tracking and Web History. Android Auto no longer reads back messages to you (it used to) unless you do the same thing.

fartcannon 6y ago
You can already degoogle if you choose a device that can run Lineage OS and F-Droid.
FreakyT 6y ago
Reminds me of my pet peeve in Google Maps: it used to have local search history, but when they moved it to the cloud, they removed _all_ search history unless you opted into the Web History. You know, Google, there's a middle ground.
rurp 6y ago
Google is usually savvy about their data hoarding, but they really tip their hand in cases like this where they require unnecessary permissions for basic functionality to work. The one that gets me is adding a label to a saved place in Maps. I can save the location fine and add it to whatever list I create for it, but if I want to add a simple custom label it blocks me because I don't have Web & App Activity tracking turned on.
arc0 6y ago
Is WhatsApp a profitable business on its own? What happens if they are forced to spin out and then go bankrupt?

metalliqaz 6y ago

Facebook used Oculus as a test to see what they could get away with. They are eyeing more profitable platforms like Instagram, and probably other things such as integrated cell phones. Sucks for Oculus, they had a good thing going before Zuck raped them.

908087 6y ago

Nice to hear some good news for once. I hadn't been following the situation before ordering one, and stupidly took a chance on ordering a Facebook product to kill boredom. Returned it as soon as I found out I'd need a FB account to use it.

djsumdog 6y ago

I have a Go that I only use for videos (Skybox). Are these device OEM unlockable, or are there any 3rd party roms for these devices? It'd be great if the installed Android system could be replaced by something truly open.

kzrdude 6y ago

Could Carmack say anything inside Occulus to bring some sanity to this?

SSLy 6y ago
No Engineer, no matter how smart, can sway a corporation directed by a political culture that has non-feature goals.
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ryandrake 6y ago

This really needs to go farther. As a purchaser of any product, I should not need to create an Internet account with the manufacturer, in order to use or continue to use a product. Once I buy it, it should be mine. I don't want to have this ongoing relationship with your company. This trend of companies making you tether yourselves to them in order to use a product you paid for has to end. I'm not a huge fan of regulating tech, but need some kind of "Right To Use" law that says once you buy something, it's yours and you don't need to connect to the manufacturer to use it, and the manufacturer can't revoke your right to use it.

jariel 6y ago
"I should not need to create an Internet account with the manufacturer, in order to use or continue to use a product. " This is a nice sentiment, but probably not possible given the reality of the interconnected nature of everything. The tech generally 'needs' the internet to work. The issues are: 1) FB requires your so-called 'real identity' which is something fundamentally different than an e-mail address. 2) Related to 1, they ban a lot, for various reasons. Those things nee to be disentangled. I wonder if the US/DE regulators are going to be smart enough to do something specific because if their redress is too wide, their going to put a zillion businesses in a very grey area. Thoughtful clarity would be nice.
- kybernetikos 6y ago
  Banning accounts that are the sole way a user has to access things they have 'purchased' should be made illegal. If that causes problems because it's also tied to a social media account, then that's an argument for social media companies keeping it separate. Imagine if a car I'd bought stopped working because I stuck a 'Find my lost cat' poster up somewhere it wasn't supposed to be.
  - jariel 6y ago
    A car is not a service. It doesn't need an account. Most things these days are service-related and absolutely need 'accounts'. Like your XBox. Occulus will invariably require some kind of 'account'. 'Accounts' are not evil.

companyhen 6y ago

I have an Oculus 1 and can't add any friends unless I link a Facebook account, so I've just been enjoying playing Beat Saber and a few other games "off the grid".

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drummer 6y ago

And now Facebook is getting into payments. Good luck getting to your funds when Facebook bans you.

everfree 6y ago
At least the regulators are very keen on that one. They've been having a lot of trouble getting into that space.

dboreham 6y ago

Well that was worth it. I'd love to see the recording of the meeting where they came up with the plan. I'll bet someone said "hey that's evil, users won't like that". Would be nice to know a) who spoke next and b) what they said. Or we can guess...

Beached 6y ago

I sure hope something happens, I wanted to buy an oculus this xmas for myself, but I left facebook in 2011, and all this facebook drama with the oculus accounts getting banned for no reason and having to have a Facebook account was the sole reason I did not. now I'm looking into who the next best vr option is.

paxys 6y ago

ALL online account requirements for hardware need to be investigated. Speakers, televisions, doorbells, watches, freaking weighing scales. If you purchase something, it should work as advertised without having to sign over your life via a lengthy ToS, and shouldn't become a brick when the company decides to shut down a random server.

Triv888 6y ago

Looks like Facebook didn't pay the proper bribes AKA lobbying fees

SkyMarshal 6y ago

Product tying was one of the reasons for the Microsoft anti-trust trial in the 90’s. Iirc you can obtain a monopoly in one product legally by out-competing your competition, but you can’t obtain another monopoly in another product by tying the second product to the legal monopoly product. MS built Internet Explorer into Windows to remove users’ need for a third-party browser like Netscape. And they did some contractual tying of Office to Windows too iirc. https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-fact https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-f... So it should be no surprise that DoJ may have problems with attempts to tie Occulus to Facebook’s legal monopoly product.

disown 6y ago

I don't get why facebook would even forcibly tie oculus to facebook accounts. All they had to do was "encourage" oculus owners to use facebook via various dark patterns, network effect or incentives. I bet they could have gotten 90% of oculus owners to use facebook accounts without much effort. Was that other 10% so important that they were willing to risk regulatory action? Was it greed? Hubris? Though I guess you could argue that VR is still in its infancy and there is no reason for any antitrust action. But why risk it?

Legion 6y ago

I hope HP expands their reach in the VR space and provides more alternatives. They have a winner on their hands with the Reverb G2. I'd like to see them dip their toe into the standalone headset market.

mechnesium 6y ago

How is this different from Apple/Google requiring iPhone/Android users to create iCloud/Google accounts to use most features on the phones? They should be subject to similar probes.

blackrock 6y ago

Ugh. I was interested in VR, until Facebook bought out Oculus.

nomel 6y ago
PC VR, and even PlayStation VR (with many PSVR2 patents), is alive and well.

paranorman 6y ago

I loved my Quest, even purchased prescription lens inserts for a better experience and after the Facebook account change I stopped using it entirely. Pretty sad to have it collect dust but this change was bad enough that I’d rather just give it up altogether.

mrfusion 6y ago

Could this change anything in the states?

zmmmmm 6y ago

It's a weird situation because from a competition point of view I don't think Facebook doing this makes either Facebook or Oculus particularly more dominant. It's actually a negative for the VR offering. At best one can say, would another social network have a chance to compete with Facebook on Oculus when the user is already linked via their Facebook account? Probably its harder but quantitatively very hard to prove. In reality the competition concerns are secondary to what is really a consumer rights issue: people are buying a good that can be rendered functionality inoperable at any time in the future by completely unrelated actions pertaining to their Facebook account. This doesn't just apply to the headset but possibly hundreds of dollars of apps they have bought. I don't know how this gets resolved at the moment when the only regulatory mechanism to enforce it is competition law where the concerns are minor (at least for now).

dpumpshitlord 6y ago

Will somebody blow this stupid fucking company up already. Jesus. Their secret sauce is exploiting women via deliberately creating personality disorders