5 ms·

The Arizona case was denied essentially because the affidavits were declared hear-say, because the testimony wasn't provided during court. I'm not a lawyer, bu

The Arizona case was denied essentially because the affidavits were declared hear-say, because the testimony wasn't provided during court. I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't make sense to me. First, it took weeks to document their testimony - it would likely take further weeks to basically re-do their testimony in court / depositions. Second, if it was so important that their testimony be sworn in to his court, why dismiss the case entirely, instead of just allowing the plaintiff to bring the witnesses to the stand? It's pretty easy to dismiss a case as "having no evidence" when you ignore the 100's of affidavits as hear-say. Sure, it's not sworn testimony in court, but to automatically assume every one of them is lying, is a bit of a stretch. Another rationale that has been used to dismiss cases is that evidence that the law was broken is not evidence that fraud that took place. It's pretty much beyond dispute at this point that in several states, credentialed Republican poll observers were not allowed to do their job in a meaningful way - contrary to state law. (referring to MI/PA) When literally hundreds of thousands of ballots are being counted without any oversight, those ballots should be thrown out. Not because its proof that fraud happened, but it is proof that the controls to prevent fraud were not in place (that were legally required to be in place). "No evidence of widespread fraud", is true. But what is also true, is that there are mountains of evidence of election laws that were ignored/broken, that in a fair election, would result in those ballots being thrown out.

SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
> When literally hundreds of thousands of ballots are being counted without any oversight, those ballots should be thrown out The judge didn't see it that way: > "This court has no authority to take away the right to vote of even a single person, let alone millions of citizens." U.S. District Judge Matthew Brann in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, 22 Nov 2020 (1) https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-judge-rejects-trump-campaigns-pa-lawsuit-prejudice/story?id=74340354 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-judge-rejects-trump-... > there are mountains of evidence of election laws that were ignored/broken And none of that evidence convinced any judges. Odd, that. "mountains of it!" rather than specifics is hand-waving gish-galloping stuff. Perhaps it's merely a partisan tactic. And "party over democracy" is dangerous. Very dangerous.
- prucomaclu 6y ago
  > The judge didn't see it that way: > "This court has no authority to take away the right to vote of even a single person, let alone millions of citizens." That's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but it's not a universal truth that illegal ballots can't be thrown out. Judges have thrown out ballots before. Judges have even thrown out elections even after the candidate is sworn into office. > Perhaps it's merely a partisan tactic. Make no mistake about it, this is a hugely partisan issue. The "Left" is convinced beyond doubt that Trump is trying to overturn the election. The "Right" is convinced beyond doubt that the election was a fraud. When the truth of a subject is determined largely by what party you associate with, it's pretty clear to me that there aren't any objective parties in this discussion. I don't vote (its against my code of ethics; see Voluntaryism) and I don't associate with any party, so I believe I am about as objective as you can reasonably expect to find on this topic. > "mountains of it!" rather than specifics is hand-waving gish-galloping stuff. I'm happy to provide evidence to anything I've claimed. For an executive summary of the evidence available, the Texas lawsuit is a good starting point (first 36 pages). https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/admin/2020/Press/SCOTUSFiling.pdf https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/ima... For Michigan specifically this document has an overview of affidavits (from Nov 10): https://cdn.donaldjtrump.com/public-files/press_assets/1.-11-10-20-trump-v.-benson-w.d.-mich.-complaint-final.pdf https://cdn.donaldjtrump.com/public-files/press_assets/1.-11... Most of the evidence I have heard is from the many hours of testimony I have watched from the state legislature hearings (PA, MI, GA, AZ). Links can be found online.
  - ChrisLomont 6y ago
    >Judges have even thrown out elections even after the candidate is sworn into office. And those judges were probably presented solid evidence that amounted to more than conspiracy and hand waving. So far Trump and co are something like 1 win, 50 losses, from judges all over the country, local, federal, Supreme Court, GOP and Dem appointed, Trump appointed (who incredibly dismissed the Trump nonsense with prejudice, which is quite rare, and signals just how ridiculous the Trump suits are). So don't use a false equivalence. There is none here.
DonHopkins 6y ago
prucomaclu: Shame on you, and shame on Texas. You LOST the Civil war, and you FAILED to start another one. Trump and Texans are such Anti-American sore losers. No slaves for you! Texas: DON'T MESS WITH AMERICA! https://www.businessinsider.com/kinzinger-republican-lawmaker-rips-texas-gop-for-suggesting-secession-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/kinzinger-republican-lawmake... Republican congressman rips Texas GOP for suggesting secession and says 'my guy Abraham Lincoln and the Union soldiers already told you no' Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger on Friday criticized the Texas GOP for floating the idea of secession after the Supreme Court rejected a bid to overturn the results of the presidential election. In a statement, the Texas GOP chairman suggested that "law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the constitution." Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger of Illinois said the statement should be immediately retracted and the people involved fired. "My guy Abraham Lincoln and the Union soldiers already told you no," he said.
DonHopkins 6y ago
Stop creating alternative accounts. It's against the rules, and there's a very good reason you're being downvoted.

SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago

> When literally hundreds of thousands of ballots are being counted without any oversight, those ballots should be thrown out The judge didn't see it that way: > "This court has no authority to take away the right to vote of even a single person, let alone millions of citizens." U.S. District Judge Matthew Brann in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, 22 Nov 2020 (1) https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-judge-rejects-trump-campaigns-pa-lawsuit-prejudice/story?id=74340354 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-judge-rejects-trump-... > there are mountains of evidence of election laws that were ignored/broken And none of that evidence convinced any judges. Odd, that. "mountains of it!" rather than specifics is hand-waving gish-galloping stuff. Perhaps it's merely a partisan tactic. And "party over democracy" is dangerous. Very dangerous.

prucomaclu 6y ago
> The judge didn't see it that way: > "This court has no authority to take away the right to vote of even a single person, let alone millions of citizens." That's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but it's not a universal truth that illegal ballots can't be thrown out. Judges have thrown out ballots before. Judges have even thrown out elections even after the candidate is sworn into office. > Perhaps it's merely a partisan tactic. Make no mistake about it, this is a hugely partisan issue. The "Left" is convinced beyond doubt that Trump is trying to overturn the election. The "Right" is convinced beyond doubt that the election was a fraud. When the truth of a subject is determined largely by what party you associate with, it's pretty clear to me that there aren't any objective parties in this discussion. I don't vote (its against my code of ethics; see Voluntaryism) and I don't associate with any party, so I believe I am about as objective as you can reasonably expect to find on this topic. > "mountains of it!" rather than specifics is hand-waving gish-galloping stuff. I'm happy to provide evidence to anything I've claimed. For an executive summary of the evidence available, the Texas lawsuit is a good starting point (first 36 pages). https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/admin/2020/Press/SCOTUSFiling.pdf https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/ima... For Michigan specifically this document has an overview of affidavits (from Nov 10): https://cdn.donaldjtrump.com/public-files/press_assets/1.-11-10-20-trump-v.-benson-w.d.-mich.-complaint-final.pdf https://cdn.donaldjtrump.com/public-files/press_assets/1.-11... Most of the evidence I have heard is from the many hours of testimony I have watched from the state legislature hearings (PA, MI, GA, AZ). Links can be found online.
- ChrisLomont 6y ago
  >Judges have even thrown out elections even after the candidate is sworn into office. And those judges were probably presented solid evidence that amounted to more than conspiracy and hand waving. So far Trump and co are something like 1 win, 50 losses, from judges all over the country, local, federal, Supreme Court, GOP and Dem appointed, Trump appointed (who incredibly dismissed the Trump nonsense with prejudice, which is quite rare, and signals just how ridiculous the Trump suits are). So don't use a false equivalence. There is none here.

DonHopkins 6y ago

prucomaclu: Shame on you, and shame on Texas. You LOST the Civil war, and you FAILED to start another one. Trump and Texans are such Anti-American sore losers. No slaves for you! Texas: DON'T MESS WITH AMERICA! https://www.businessinsider.com/kinzinger-republican-lawmaker-rips-texas-gop-for-suggesting-secession-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/kinzinger-republican-lawmake... Republican congressman rips Texas GOP for suggesting secession and says 'my guy Abraham Lincoln and the Union soldiers already told you no' Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger on Friday criticized the Texas GOP for floating the idea of secession after the Supreme Court rejected a bid to overturn the results of the presidential election. In a statement, the Texas GOP chairman suggested that "law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the constitution." Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger of Illinois said the statement should be immediately retracted and the people involved fired. "My guy Abraham Lincoln and the Union soldiers already told you no," he said.

DonHopkins 6y ago

Stop creating alternative accounts. It's against the rules, and there's a very good reason you're being downvoted.