18 ms·
Former Tesla engineer sues for defamation
- Threeve303 6y agoIt’s nearly impossible to fight defamation like this. Only defense against it is to be as careful choosing your employer as possible. The amount of power they have over your future is insane and in certain situations, like the one in the article, you basically have no recourse.
- minikites 6y ago>Only defense against it is to be as careful choosing your employer as possible. That's not the only defense, this is example #25360432 showing how necessary labor unions are.
- fouldiplomacy 6y ago"showing how necessary labor unions are" Chicago is a great example of labor unions and how well they work out.
- soperj 6y agoChicago is also a great example of democracy and how well it works out, along with Russia. Maybe don't make a place with massive corruption your example.
- hpoe 6y agoYou're right I mean the teamsters union is such an upstanding example of the positive effects of unions.
- tptacek 6y agoWhat the hell do you people think Chicago is? It's not 1929 anymore.
- soperj 6y ago4 of the last 10 Governors of Illinois have gone to prison.
- jjoonathan 6y agoOnly the biggest, nastiest unions were able to survive the purge.
- rhacker 6y agoThe claim that unions are horrible may be true for some large, high profile unions, but what everyone seems to ignore are all the small, totally unknown unions that get shit done.
- dleslie 6y agoA good rule of thumb: if the union is so large that it has enough bureaucrats that they have their own Union, then it's likely most of your dues are spent on propagating the Union bureaucracy and not necessarily on aiding the employees the Union represents.
- hh3k0 6y ago> Chicago is a great example of labor unions and how well they work out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
- zmix 6y agoChicago ain't the world! Here, in Germany, labor unions are not perfect either, but pretty effective. It's a question of culture: if something never can grow up, into a solid state, it will cease to succeed. In the US unions get constantly hated and attacked. It's difficult to develop a healthy personality under such circumstances.
- fouldiplomacy 6y agoI loooove me some fallacies and biases. I work diligently everyday at work to avoid them. However; I think this is misplaced as a quick search of Chicago news will inform the reader that Ms. Lightfoot has her hands full trying to balance a budget while not crippling the city because of unions. There is no fallacy here, only truth that is uncomfortable to some.
- hh3k0 6y ago> There is no fallacy here, only truth that is uncomfortable to some. There is, though. And it is an association fallacy. You wrote: > Chicago is a great example of labor unions and how well they work out. The error in your logic: Premise: Chicago's labor unions are labor unions. Premise: Chicago's labor unions are bad. Your conclusion: Therefore, all labor unions are bad.
- EliRivers 6y agoWhat are some other examples of how well they work out? Paid holiday? Days off? Working environments that weren't deathtraps? Sounds pretty good to me.
- lawnchair_larry 6y agoYou don’t have those in your non-union job? Everyone I know in tech already gets paid time off, and safe work environments.
- EliRivers 6y agoOf course I do. Don't be a childish, passive-aggressive dickhead [0]. You know as well as everyone else here that these were fought for and won by unions. [0] I make no apology. I really don't like that kind of phony bullshit pretend question. Its dishonesty is corrosive to discourse.
- lawnchair_larry 6y agoThat seems like an inappropriate overreaction. Also, no, they were not. Companies who have never had unions offer these things, because we would not work there if they didn’t. Even if they were, the fact that they are ubiquitous today without unions would mean that this is historical trivia, and not an argument that supports having a union today.
- dang 6y ago"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The GP comment stepped a foot over that line but this is crashing right through it. Please don't. We're trying for curious conversation here, not repetitive bashing.
- fouldiplomacy 6y agoI’ll attempt to “not flamewar” but you are being rather sensitive about this. A decent moderation is necessary but i fail to see any reason for the watchdogs to hate on my post. Fact is Chicago is very much underwater because unions have gripped the city’s pension to the point that they cannot pass meaningful budget resolutions. Unions had a place at the beginning of the industrial age for worker safety and reasonable wages. With OSHA and a long list of other laws, unions are largely outdated. Please contribute something useful and not rules that are hardly being bent otherwise you are cluttering “curious conversations.”
- dang 6y agoIt was a cliché one-liner on a divisive theme that was far off topic. That certainly counts as flamebait. This is not a borderline call! Sometimes people make a more substantive comment in response to a moderation scolding—sort of explaining the background that was in their mind but which they didn't say earlier. I'd say your second and third paragraphs here count as that. If you had included that in your original post, it would at least have been not a one-liner and less of a cliché, and I probably wouldn't have replied.
- giantg2 6y agoUnions can be useful for industry specific protections or benefits. This would provide different protections specific to a type of work. I think arbitration protections and restrictions on employment contracts to preserve employee rights should be handled through legislation since it should be universally applicable to all workers. This would remove the variance in protections from one union to another.
- elihu 6y agoLegislation would be ideal, but in the absence of such legislation (such as the bill mentioned in the article to limit mandatory arbitration that was attempted in 2019 and passed the House but was never voted on in the Senate) unions still might be the best option in the short term.
- giantg2 6y agoMaybe. Unions can become corrupt or politically influenced too. In fact, organized labor is one of the main money makers for organized crime. I'm not saying all unions are bad, just that some can be. Just as any power structure like governments or company management can be too. I wonder if the major unions have banned together to get that bill introduced and voted on? It could be possible that they wouldn't support legislation like that because more legislative protections can make the union seem less useful. If the unions don't have incentive to push the bill and more workers are covered by unions and don't see the benefit of the bill because they are already protected, then could that delay or even prevent the passage of those protections? It may end up as a long term fix that leaves non-uninonized groups and groups that seem unlikely to organize, like IT. Of course with widespread existing adoption, a counter point could be less opposition to it.
- elihu 6y agoI suspect the reason it didn't pass the Senate is that Republicans are in the majority there, and I can't imagine any union having much influence or leverage with Mitch McConnell to even convince him to hold a vote.
- 6y ago
- bko 6y agoThe article suggests she was fired because she asked for a meeting with Musk about floor mats after failing to get the proper response from the regular chain of command. In my experience, everywhere I worked had a chain of command and consistently stepping outside the chain of command and going over your managers heads rarely leads to good results. From an article mentioned in the LA Times article > She considered leaving Tesla, but fellow engineers convinced her to stay. “I promised them I [would] get to Elon one way or the other,” she wrote, “even if I [had to go] to the Supreme Court.” I would understand from a corporate perspective Tesla wanting to remove this person. A company, especially one on the brink of bankruptcy as Tesla was in 2014 has to have a high degree of cohesion and minimal dissent from employees. > Instead, Balan said, she was forced to resign, an event that launched a six-year legal journey leading to where she is today: about to face off against Tesla — on her own, without an attorney — in the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. I can't understand how someone can be let go from a company and make it their life's work over the next 6 years to grieve and fight publicly. Right or wrong, it seems like an utterly destructive process on the personal level. > Balan says her professional reputation suffered damage so severe she can’t find a company willing to hire her. “They tell me, ‘We’d like to hire you, but we can’t afford to be on Musk’s blacklist,’” she said. Employers aversion to hiring Balan may have to do with her lawsuit, at least a little bit
- lawnchair_larry 6y agoDid you miss the part where Musk announced that employees are to disregard hierarchy and go directly up the chain if it solves problems faster, including all the way to the top? Weeks earlier, in a companywide email, Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk had dumped on the concept of corporate hierarchy. Find “the fastest way to solve a problem to the benefit of the whole company” and don’t worry about your boss, he told them. Go straight to the top, if need be. Balan took him up on it.
- giantg2 6y agoTypical CEO double speak. Senior management at my company says similar things. Then if you look at the HR policy you find the fine print that greatly restricts what was said. I had a department head tell us his door is always open and to contact him about stuff (company policy supports the open door policy). I took him up on it. When I showed up, he had another manager there in addition to himself (it was supposed to be a scheduled meeting with just me and him). I was later rated poorly, both in an interview and at year end, for a lack of leadership (following the hierarchy).
- rmrfstar 6y agoProbably the biggest takeaway is, in jurisdictions that permit it, "record all your conversations at work, encrypt them, and hope you never need them." She would be in a totally different situation if she had a tape of Tesla's AGC threatening her friends through their immigration status. That is straight up mafia tactics. Brings to mind this case [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-29388019 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-29388019
- frereubu 6y agoThat presumes you're in a legal jurisdiction where one-party consent is allowed for recording conversations doesn't it? Otherwise it would be inadmissible.
- giantg2 6y agoYep. Based on the article, it sounds like the criminal act that Tesla is accusing her of is unlawful recording.
- rmrfstar 6y agoIt's a solid point, and I've updated my comment accordingly.
- bambax 6y agoInadmissible in court, but you can always leak to the press and see what happens.
- vmception 6y agoNot only inadmissible, but can incur criminal liability as well, such as in California. With criminal statutes, it significantly raises the bar about how to "leak" something to the press, the press who needs to verify the source and can be subpoena'd for records.
- 6y ago
- harlanji 6y agoVery true. I unwisely chose an employer and my life has been increasingly harsh and lately scary, and the snowball of problems grows and rolls down the hill. OpenTable, don’t work or them.
- zaroth 6y agoTFA is kind of a strange re-telling of an interesting story. It came into the public view after an article from Inc. about Musk's famous email telling people to break with the chain of command. [1] The HuffPo posted an article responding to Inc raising Balan's concerns [2]; > At the time Balan was working on the interiors design team at Tesla, where she identified and “tried … to solve two engineering issues,” she wrote recently on her blog — design flaws that needed to be addressed by the company. But when she tried to force management to fix the problems she was “bullied, humiliated, demoted and retaliated against in the most horrible way possible.” She considered leaving Tesla, but fellow engineers convinced her to stay. “I promised them I [would] get to Elon one way or the other,” she wrote, “even if I [had to go] to the Supreme Court.” > Balan attempted to go through proper channels but soon found herself “in an even more threatening situation.” She began recording her meetings with fellow engineers when they discussed problems within the company. One recorded meeting lasted more than two hours. The recordings were “for Elon’s ears only,” she wrote in her blog. >> Then I made my mistake: I wrote an email to Elon Musk, in reference to the infamous ‘Communication within Tesla’ email, to let him know I must meet with him in order to show him evidence of … things going on inside the company that he needed to be aware of. The original blog post that HuffPo references is gone, but Balan has since posted a long blog article to try to tell her side of the story, which is certainly an interesting read of it's own right. [3] [1] - https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/this-email-from-elon-musk-to-tesla-employees-descr.html https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/this-email-from-elon-musk-... [2] - http://deleter.net/index.php/news/5541/Business/September-11-2017/Reporter-Writes-Glowing-Article-About-Elon-Musk-But-Leaves-Out-Key-Details http://deleter.net/index.php/news/5541/Business/September-11... [3] - http://cristinaibalanstory.com/teslas-longest-comment-on-an-article-ever/ http://cristinaibalanstory.com/teslas-longest-comment-on-an-...
- stefan_ 6y agoWhy on earth would Tesla defaming her on some news site after her resignation be required to go to arbitration? Not only does the timeline not fit, it isn't even an employment contract matter.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- benjohnson 6y ago"To encourage the others" that may be harbouring non-Tesla approved thoughts. http://wordhistories.net/2016/10/22/pour-encourager-les-autres/ http://wordhistories.net/2016/10/22/pour-encourager-les-autr...
- clort 6y agoThere are lots of problems here and it seems to me that Tesla is being a bully. Cristina Balan has a fundraiser page, at https://www.gofundme.com/f/a86fmm-fighting-tesla-for-defaming-me-after-speaking-up https://www.gofundme.com/f/a86fmm-fighting-tesla-for-defamin... and there is some text there from her, setting out some facts as she has seen them.
- Threeve303 6y agoThanks for sharing that. It provides much more insight and context on the situation. For me, the whole thing comes back to the news article. It is absolutely bonkers no matter the circumstance. Huffington Post should not have published anything without verifying that she was actually a criminal. Clearly Tesla thought they screwed up as well or they wouldn't have fired the guy responsible for it two days later. I completely understand wanting to have her removed from the company and the way it was done. It's just that you cannot go around labelling someone a criminal for life if all they have done is make a few middle managers angry by going over their heads. If she truly is a "criminal" for secret recordings then it's on Tesla to take that to the proper authorities. Once the proper authorities (i.e. the justice system, jury of your peers, not power tripping middle managers) determines that you are a criminal, then feel free to share that for reference checks and write as many news articles as you want broadcasting it. But not until then, and if that kind of rule is broken, the penalty for those that do should be very severe.
- mgh2 6y agoWell this has to be examined further: she could only be the most prominent case among others. What about the "1000 lawsuits" the article mentions? Unless it was done by collusion (ex: a union). In terms of averages and probability, Balan's case does stand a point as a whistleblower, hinting a covert truth behind the company.
- ketamine__ 6y agoWhy is it written so poorly?
- 6y ago
- neilv 6y ago> The woman from human resources opened the doors — those big heavy fire doors with the push bars. She led the way through an unlighted, windowless room, draped in plastic, smelling of paint. Cristina Balan grew nervous. “This doesn’t look like the way to Elon’s office,” she thought to herself. She was led, she said, through another door into a room where she saw two large men in security uniforms behind desks. They were ordered to wait outside. "Sorry about the smell; forget what you saw on Dexter, sheet plastic doesn't always work, and sometimes we have to repaint, haha." I wonder whether the theatrics was at all for intimidation, or just an accident of the combination of legitimate physical security policy, and of wanting a meeting room where other employees wouldn't see the commotion (which happened to be new office space being prepared).
- lawnchair_larry 6y agoThe theatrics appear to be a transparent attempt by the author to fluff up a narrative. Those are normal office building doors, and they didn’t give the physical security people an office with windows. Nothing unusual, and only barely relevant because it would be clear that Elon probably has a nice office, with windows, clueing her in that she wasn’t going to meet with him.
- dleslie 6y agoIt sounds like the same toxic middle management which she, and others, took issue with was aware of her attempts to contact Musk and leaned on HR to have her removed. Likely Musk got her communications and asked her management if there was any merit; and if he had indeed done this, it would be contradictory to his previous communication encouraging employees to go around their management. If they needed to go around management then likely going through management is not the correct response.
- jjulius 6y agoGenuinely curious, why was this flagged?
- gamblor956 6y agoThere is a large contingent of pro-Tesla readers on HN that cannot abide by any criticism of Tesla. Articles critical of Tesla always get flagged, and most of the time dang unflags them, especially if they're from newspapers like LAT.
- pbreit 6y agoCan they build in a mechanism to mitigate baseless flagging?
- shuntress 6y ago"most of the time dang unflags them" is that mechanism. If I found a reliable way to automate the recognition of bad-faith user interactions I would sell it to google and retire before bringing it to HN. edit: Also, apparently, users can "vouch" for posts which presumably is just the inverse of flagging a post.
- laviamo 6y agoBut what's their point? Are those odd TSLA shareholders?
- 6y ago
- john_moscow 6y agoSo, let's try to be objective about this. Tesla's viewpoint is that Cristina had an internal conflict with other managers regarding the choice of one of the suppliers [0]: > For example, Ms. Balan was unhappy with a particular supplier that was selected by an internal group of subject matter experts who extensively studied the issue. She took it upon herself to find an alternative supplier that [...] She herself confirms it (from original article): > All seemed to be going well until Balan came across what she considered sketchy dealings on supplier contracts and the curling floor mats. From her fundraiser page, she tried to spin the business disagreement into a "hot topic" gender discrimination issue: > Soon after I’ve got into an arbitration lawsuit with Tesla based on misclassification, wrongful termination And gender discrimination. Not knowing the details, this leaves an impression of an opportunistic person who would try all means possible to achieve what she wants, rather than trying to persuade others. The problem with such people is that they can be right in some decisions, wrong in others, but if the rest of the team has to spend 50% of their time catering to that 1 person, it's a net-negative effect on the team. You can call it unfair, but diplomacy and compromises are important if you are working with other people. Given that, I would be skeptical about other claims she makes: >Under duress, threatened that if I [did] not sign my resignation I would be handcuffed and dragged to the parking lot … It's a her-word-against-his case and in such cases both sides are typically trying to bend reality in their favor. Also, worth noting that Musk has recently announced that he's moving away from California [2], so LA times would have very good reasons for a hit piece like this one. [0] http://deleter.net/index.php/news/5541/Business/September-11-2017/Reporter-Writes-Glowing-Article-About-Elon-Musk-But-Leaves-Out-Key-Details http://deleter.net/index.php/news/5541/Business/September-11... [1] https://www.gofundme.com/f/a86fmm-fighting-tesla-for-defaming-me-after-speaking-up https://www.gofundme.com/f/a86fmm-fighting-tesla-for-defamin... [2] https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22163805/elon-musk-texas-moved-california-tesla-spacex https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22163805/elon-musk-texas-...
- X6S1x6Okd1st 6y agoAre you really trying to be objective about this?
- didibus 6y agoDid we read the same thing? She was trying to escalate to upper management that she saw some issues with suppliers, which were possibly due to people choosing their friends as supplier instead of choosing the best supplier, and also some issue with floor mats that could be a safety concern. And they fired her for that. I don't know what else there is to spin? It looks to me she cared too much about doing a good job and tried to mingle with a manager chain that cared more about themselves.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mgh2 6y agoWhy was this story flagged? Can HN at least provide an explanation? It does not seem to violate HN guidelines: not politics, clickbait or fraud, and could serve as an investigative piece. Just because there is some criticism on a tech darling - it is not even a personal attack. Is HN turning into a liberal censorship site? I thought HN valued curiosity and truth... Note: I am not surprised with people's discourse nowadays. Can someone please unflag it? Updated: thank you for unflagging
- jasondclinton 6y agoI have 500 karma and I don't see a UI element to try to vouch for it.
- falcolas 6y agoYou can't vouch for stories. You'd have to contact the mods by email.
- mgh2 6y agoI have 1556 and can't either. Contacted them by email. They did unflag it :)
- dang 6y agoYou can vouch for stories. It works the same way as for comments: click on the timestamp to go to its page, then click 'vouch' at the top (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch). Vouch links only show up when a post is [dead], though. In this case there were enough flags to show [flag] but not enough to kill it.
- Dirlewanger 6y ago>Is HN turning into a liberal censorship site? If this was always the case, my apologies. I thought HN valued curiosity and truth... Years ago, yes. Not so anymore. Last year they flagged/removed all submissions of a NYT op-ed (written by an Indian guy) that blamed rich white liberals for the SFBA housing crisis. Tells you all you need to know about the HN echo chamber
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- neonate 6y agohttps://archive.is/s0uhs https://archive.is/s0uhs
- GoToRO 6y agoGood engineers must learn that while they spent the time learning their skills, other people spent that time learning how to steal others’ people work. If you are really good, you must start your own company. Much harder, I know.
- chimen 6y agoAnd a good engineer usually does not make a good salesperson. Starting a company does not make a good engineer better nor does it guarantee a better path in one's career. On the contrary I would dare say.
- RivieraKid 6y agoThat's obvious to everybody. The point is, co-owning the company you work for has some fundamental advantages. By the way, this wouldn't be true in a perfectly competitive market, it's only true thanks to market imperfections. For example, in the company I work for, sometimes I slip into the mode of feeling like I "own" the product we're making, making an extra effort, being emotionally invested, etc. But then I remember, I would just be a fool who works for his employer for free. Also, achieving change requires a lot more effort and often fails, which can be demotivating. In general, I feel like I could run things substantially better if I had the power. Seeing the mediocrity at fairly successful companies makes me really think about working at a startup.
- thanksforthe42 6y agoI've been called a good Engineer. All my companies I started failed. This hits close to home.
- hnarn 6y agoLuckily for you, there’s plenty of us stuck in other depts (technical sales, customer services) that still understand a lot of the technical stuff while being more used to working closely with customers. Try finding a company buddy, they might be closer than you think.
- 6y ago
- ilaksh 6y agoIf something like this happens at such a company as Tesla, what's stopping it from happening at any company? It looks like one of the core issues is that it seemed to Tesla that a recall just might kill the company at that time. So they felt that in order to protect the existence of the company, they really needed to be quiet about the floor mats at all costs. They probably rationalized it as "well, how hard is it to check if your floor mat is curling up" or something. So that seems to be a structural issue. When it comes to the existence of your job or your company, it's too easy to rationalize unethical acts. At least for most people. Especially if their boss tells them to do it.
- kube-system 6y agoIt's so common that it doesn't normally make the news. This is just news because Tesla is involved.
- mcguire 6y agoIn case anyone else is wondering, "That’s a reason Balan, with a stated net worth of $50,000, gives to explain why she is representing herself — she doesn’t have to pay lawyers, so time is her only expense."
- justanotherhn 6y agoThis is hilarious, her gofundme is mostly funded by Tesla Shortsellers and they're not even hiding it... I haven't read her claims but this is amusing. Gregory Reyes $5,000 (shortseller) Donna Walker $1,212 (shortseller) NetflixAndLamp $1,000 (shortseller) DIP Harambe $500 (shortseller) Machine Planet $500 (shortseller) Paul Shust $250 (shortseller) Naked Shortseller $100 (shortseller) Oslo Skeptic $100 (shortseller) Bones ThreeZero $50 (shortseller) Since someone downvoted me, above are known TESLAQ folks and some are confirmed shortsellers while others tweet incessantly anything negative on this company but I cannot confirm 100% that they have short positions in this stock right now.
- mgh2 6y agoCan you provide the most prominent names? Being funded by short sellers does not imply her case is false: they can be independent, albeit the same goal ("your enemy is my friend"). PS: Tesla fans or stock holders could be the reason why this story was initially flagged
- justanotherhn 6y agoI have edited my original comment with a few which did not mark their donation as "private". P.S. I didn't say her case is not valid, simply that it's curious and amusing.
- CogitoCogito 6y agoIt’s a bit odd to focus on the short sellers anyway. If her funding by short sellers puts her honesty in question then wouldn’t the same logic put Tesla’s honesty about her in question as well? Both sides are making claims in line with their financial interests.
- chongli 6y agoI'm not sure why that's so amusing. The justice system only requires the judiciary to be impartial in order to serve the public good effectively. Plaintiffs and defendants can be as biased as they want. Terry Bollea (Hulk Hogan) successfully sued Gawker with the backing of investor Peter Thiel, who had a well-known grudge against them. That doesn't take away from the fact that Gawker grossly invaded people's privacy in order to turn a profit on harmful gossip.
- elisharobinson 6y agofirst of there is some dirt here , Tesla dropped the ball on this one. They made it personal and could have handled it more gently. But then again i have a bias towards TESLA and im more inclined to trust press release by lawyers which is legally admissible. There is no doubt she was traumatised by the sudden nature of it all. although i hope after all this PR spotlight she will have her name cleared and one of the many HN comments who are disgusted by the way Tesla handled this will recommend her for employment in their organisation.
- thanksforthe42 6y agoThe fantasy that capitalism would punish businesses for treating employees poorly or people would stop buying low quality products is disappearing. Marketing tricks are the most important thing in the business world as shown by Tesla, Jeep, Apple, and Nintendo. Not that I buy their stuff, but some people still do.