4 ms·

I find it quite off putting, that the general approach of EU institutions is to direct resources and economic activity from the top. It not only has demonstrate

I find it quite off putting, that the general approach of EU institutions is to direct resources and economic activity from the top. It not only has demonstrated to be a failure economically, but it's an arrogant attitude by politicians, giving the message they know better than individuals, and that a free market leads to preventable bad outcomes. Also, it's tied to price controls and redistribution concepts. They will assign the money to each person they find moral. Which at the end means a mix of connections and sentiments. [Edit] I mean I don't know why I waste the time arguing with useless commies online. They have a long history of failures and disappointments and still stick to this emotional garbage ideas, at this point it's not something I can fix since I am not a psychologist. It's kind of amusing that HN has such slanted audience, given that startup funding is the biggest exponent of hypercapitalism.

norwegianwhale 6y ago
One minute past the comment and it already fetched 2 downvotes. Apparently being concerned about dirigism is detrimental to the community. Pretty sure they work for the government / do badly in the free market.
- tjomk 6y ago
  Someone apparently has bad memories from the USSR-era where they centrally planned the whole economy, including how much people have sex.
- krastanov 6y ago
  My understanding is that Hacker News etiquette includes "downvote as simple sign of not agreeing" not only "downvote if a comment is low effort".
- bildung 6y ago
  Are you aware how Silicon Valley came into being? The Internet? The moon landing?
  - norwegianwhale 6y ago
    Stick to government jobs, you will do well.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Considering the workforce surplus nothing will be lost even if all of the money was 100% wasted. However, the effects of fixing the rest of the economy will still massively pay dividends.
      - noodles_nomore 6y ago
        100% waste will fix the economy?
  - young_unixer 6y ago
    While those are fair points about the origin of Silicon Valley, the picture today is pretty different. And there's a huge difference in values. The American ethos is "you're free to do great things, if you can". The European ethos is "You need the state to protect you from everything and you shouldn't try to be different or independent"
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      It sounds like what this initiative is doing is Europe trying to create a Silicon Valley (probably far from the first time), not sustain it indefinitely. They have to learn to crawl before they run. So the focus on origins is valid.
kuschku 6y ago
> I find it quite off putting, that the general approach of EU institutions is to direct resources and economic activity from the top Isn't that method exactly how the silicon valley, and with it companies like Intel, were created? By the US DoD directing money from the top?
- norwegianwhale 6y ago
  The governments spend 45% of GDP yearly. It's very likely that at some point, every company has served the public sector. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, IBM, list goes on, weren't envisaged by a 60 year old bureaucrat sitting in Brussels or Washington. They were created by ambitious young men looking to shape the world in their own way.
  - carlmr 6y ago
    >Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, IBM IBM and Google both came almost directly from government money. Amazon, Microsoft and Netflix are arguably actual startups.
    - kuschku 6y ago
      Although Microsoft really started as a subcontractor for IBM, which again shows the knock-on effects good government subsidies can have. Hadn't the DoD started SV, most of these companies wouldn't exist today.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        Had WW2 never happen or the US not be in such an advantageous geographical position away from the "trouble", SV might not exist today. The snowball/butterfly effect is real.
        sitkack 6y ago
        SV, Hollywood, the Aerospace-Defense Industry. All of it by purposeful accident. I feel like some in tech want to take responsibility, somehow that American's are just better tech-bros than anyone else. It was mostly chance. Call it what it is, a gift. And take care of it, they only get made by luck.
jariel 6y ago
In some cases it works better than others, and often it's needed. Consider that in the US, the decisions are also 'made from the Top' but often from large investment firms that decide where the money goes. When an industry is small and new, it's more open. But for commercial aircraft like for regular airlines, there is zero hope unless the government coordinates it. There's no 'hey, invest $20 Billion in my startup, maybe I will have customers some day'. No - you need a national strategy with the airlines buying in. That said - concerns over central planning are real - not so much in impetus, but in execution. If Europe could snap it's fingers and for $10 Billion just have competitors to Intel just magically appear - it would be a good investment. Very good. But unlike roads, tunnels and bridges, you can't just buy innovation. It's going to take the right leaders, the right investments, the right kinds of innovation. Which is extremely hard. I don't know the industry but it may may more sense to come at it from the periphery: possibly by creating design and fabs for more common chips. Or maybe it makes sense to come at it from an academic/open angle, and get the top Universities to publish open source designs that if industry buyers want, they can get subsidies for fabs. Finally ... the other parts of the ecosystem are not there as much: there is no more Nokia. There is nobody making computers. There is no 'OS' to guide deep integration. I think it's reasonable to be wary of this kind of top down sentiment as it's risky and not preferable, and prone to fluffy words without action, at the same time, it's reasonable to address the issue.
- sseveran 6y ago
  There is at least one YC company that would beg to differ with respect to airlines. Boom Technology. https://boomsupersonic.com https://boomsupersonic.com
  - jariel 6y ago
    It's an example of the opposite. 'Boom' is a tiny little venture company that may or may not make actual commercial viability, in a niche sector. Boom is not remotely trying to enter the market for real commercial traffic, which is essentially impossible for a regular private company. There are no successful airline manufactures that exist without the expressed coordination of a national strategy. Boeing is a 'strategic asset' - they are supported by massive military contracts and other industrial subsidies. They have Federal level support from the diplomatic corps and may involve themselves in foreign policy. Sales of aircraft may be tied to other mechanisms of statecraft. Airbus - even more so, practically a creation of European governments. To give an example of what happens when nations are not powerful, look at Bombardier in Canada - which was squeezed out of a more niche are of commercial aircraft by state actions. Boeing complained to Donald Trump about 'unfair competition' - the US - against NAFTA treaty - imposed a 250% duty on Bombardier jets. To get around this, Bombardier had to drop their pants and do an ugly deal with Airbus. Eventually, this inability to flex material power in conjunction with other state assets ... and it's a flop for Canada, and a 'win' for a bigger entity backed by a more powerful state entity as the commercial aircraft business was sold off to Airbus. If Canada had a huge domestic market, this probably would not be the case. Edit: it's possible Boom eventually develops into a much bigger entity, maybe in 40 years, using their 'smaller, currently niche but growing industry' as an entry point. But taking on Boeing is tantamount to taking on Microsoft directly.
ichbinwiederda 6y ago
The free market does not care about EU sovereignty and such geopolitical issues, so the EU cannot rely on the free market to make the EU competitive in tech. Also in any case no private entity has been banned from participating in these markets. Also in the whole article there is no mention of funding. It is probably a tech sharing and licensing agreement more than anything.
Aerroon 6y ago
This push probably won't work because it's a push by politicians. They've managed to create conditions that are not suitable for the organic growth of the semi-conductor industry in Europe. Now they're slowly realizing that it's a problem, but it's a bit too late. You can't force an industry to appear and expect it to be competitive on a global scale. People are still going to be buying devices with chips manufactured in Asia. They will probably have a similar realization about software in a decade or two.
- norwegianwhale 6y ago
  Why on earth a productive company would move to Europe, where your revenues are automatically slashed by 50% in taxes, and you are constantly exposed to whimsical unfettered politicians.. They could start here. Why Facebook, Google, Amazon don't open massive headquarters in Paris, Madrid, Rome or Berlin, and they rather stick to UK and Switzerland? Also software managers won't move to Europe for the same reasons. European politicians have the upper hand and the last word in negotiations.
  - sjogress 6y ago
    I dont' think the difference between EU and US taxes on revenue are all that different. If you compare Panama, or other tax havens where multinational companies like to stash their revenue, to the EU then you probably have a point.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Do all European countries really have such a high tax rate or is it just a few places like France?
nr2x 6y ago
Wait until you hear about this commie organization called DARPA.

norwegianwhale 6y ago

One minute past the comment and it already fetched 2 downvotes. Apparently being concerned about dirigism is detrimental to the community. Pretty sure they work for the government / do badly in the free market.

tjomk 6y ago
Someone apparently has bad memories from the USSR-era where they centrally planned the whole economy, including how much people have sex.
krastanov 6y ago
My understanding is that Hacker News etiquette includes "downvote as simple sign of not agreeing" not only "downvote if a comment is low effort".
bildung 6y ago
Are you aware how Silicon Valley came into being? The Internet? The moon landing?
- norwegianwhale 6y ago
  Stick to government jobs, you will do well.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Considering the workforce surplus nothing will be lost even if all of the money was 100% wasted. However, the effects of fixing the rest of the economy will still massively pay dividends.
    - noodles_nomore 6y ago
      100% waste will fix the economy?
- young_unixer 6y ago
  While those are fair points about the origin of Silicon Valley, the picture today is pretty different. And there's a huge difference in values. The American ethos is "you're free to do great things, if you can". The European ethos is "You need the state to protect you from everything and you shouldn't try to be different or independent"
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    It sounds like what this initiative is doing is Europe trying to create a Silicon Valley (probably far from the first time), not sustain it indefinitely. They have to learn to crawl before they run. So the focus on origins is valid.

kuschku 6y ago

> I find it quite off putting, that the general approach of EU institutions is to direct resources and economic activity from the top Isn't that method exactly how the silicon valley, and with it companies like Intel, were created? By the US DoD directing money from the top?

norwegianwhale 6y ago
The governments spend 45% of GDP yearly. It's very likely that at some point, every company has served the public sector. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, IBM, list goes on, weren't envisaged by a 60 year old bureaucrat sitting in Brussels or Washington. They were created by ambitious young men looking to shape the world in their own way.
- carlmr 6y ago
  >Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, IBM IBM and Google both came almost directly from government money. Amazon, Microsoft and Netflix are arguably actual startups.
  - kuschku 6y ago
    Although Microsoft really started as a subcontractor for IBM, which again shows the knock-on effects good government subsidies can have. Hadn't the DoD started SV, most of these companies wouldn't exist today.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Had WW2 never happen or the US not be in such an advantageous geographical position away from the "trouble", SV might not exist today. The snowball/butterfly effect is real.
      - sitkack 6y ago
        SV, Hollywood, the Aerospace-Defense Industry. All of it by purposeful accident. I feel like some in tech want to take responsibility, somehow that American's are just better tech-bros than anyone else. It was mostly chance. Call it what it is, a gift. And take care of it, they only get made by luck.

jariel 6y ago

In some cases it works better than others, and often it's needed. Consider that in the US, the decisions are also 'made from the Top' but often from large investment firms that decide where the money goes. When an industry is small and new, it's more open. But for commercial aircraft like for regular airlines, there is zero hope unless the government coordinates it. There's no 'hey, invest $20 Billion in my startup, maybe I will have customers some day'. No - you need a national strategy with the airlines buying in. That said - concerns over central planning are real - not so much in impetus, but in execution. If Europe could snap it's fingers and for $10 Billion just have competitors to Intel just magically appear - it would be a good investment. Very good. But unlike roads, tunnels and bridges, you can't just buy innovation. It's going to take the right leaders, the right investments, the right kinds of innovation. Which is extremely hard. I don't know the industry but it may may more sense to come at it from the periphery: possibly by creating design and fabs for more common chips. Or maybe it makes sense to come at it from an academic/open angle, and get the top Universities to publish open source designs that if industry buyers want, they can get subsidies for fabs. Finally ... the other parts of the ecosystem are not there as much: there is no more Nokia. There is nobody making computers. There is no 'OS' to guide deep integration. I think it's reasonable to be wary of this kind of top down sentiment as it's risky and not preferable, and prone to fluffy words without action, at the same time, it's reasonable to address the issue.

sseveran 6y ago
There is at least one YC company that would beg to differ with respect to airlines. Boom Technology. https://boomsupersonic.com https://boomsupersonic.com
- jariel 6y ago
  It's an example of the opposite. 'Boom' is a tiny little venture company that may or may not make actual commercial viability, in a niche sector. Boom is not remotely trying to enter the market for real commercial traffic, which is essentially impossible for a regular private company. There are no successful airline manufactures that exist without the expressed coordination of a national strategy. Boeing is a 'strategic asset' - they are supported by massive military contracts and other industrial subsidies. They have Federal level support from the diplomatic corps and may involve themselves in foreign policy. Sales of aircraft may be tied to other mechanisms of statecraft. Airbus - even more so, practically a creation of European governments. To give an example of what happens when nations are not powerful, look at Bombardier in Canada - which was squeezed out of a more niche are of commercial aircraft by state actions. Boeing complained to Donald Trump about 'unfair competition' - the US - against NAFTA treaty - imposed a 250% duty on Bombardier jets. To get around this, Bombardier had to drop their pants and do an ugly deal with Airbus. Eventually, this inability to flex material power in conjunction with other state assets ... and it's a flop for Canada, and a 'win' for a bigger entity backed by a more powerful state entity as the commercial aircraft business was sold off to Airbus. If Canada had a huge domestic market, this probably would not be the case. Edit: it's possible Boom eventually develops into a much bigger entity, maybe in 40 years, using their 'smaller, currently niche but growing industry' as an entry point. But taking on Boeing is tantamount to taking on Microsoft directly.

ichbinwiederda 6y ago

The free market does not care about EU sovereignty and such geopolitical issues, so the EU cannot rely on the free market to make the EU competitive in tech. Also in any case no private entity has been banned from participating in these markets. Also in the whole article there is no mention of funding. It is probably a tech sharing and licensing agreement more than anything.

Aerroon 6y ago

This push probably won't work because it's a push by politicians. They've managed to create conditions that are not suitable for the organic growth of the semi-conductor industry in Europe. Now they're slowly realizing that it's a problem, but it's a bit too late. You can't force an industry to appear and expect it to be competitive on a global scale. People are still going to be buying devices with chips manufactured in Asia. They will probably have a similar realization about software in a decade or two.

norwegianwhale 6y ago
Why on earth a productive company would move to Europe, where your revenues are automatically slashed by 50% in taxes, and you are constantly exposed to whimsical unfettered politicians.. They could start here. Why Facebook, Google, Amazon don't open massive headquarters in Paris, Madrid, Rome or Berlin, and they rather stick to UK and Switzerland? Also software managers won't move to Europe for the same reasons. European politicians have the upper hand and the last word in negotiations.
- sjogress 6y ago
  I dont' think the difference between EU and US taxes on revenue are all that different. If you compare Panama, or other tax havens where multinational companies like to stash their revenue, to the EU then you probably have a point.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Do all European countries really have such a high tax rate or is it just a few places like France?

nr2x 6y ago

Wait until you hear about this commie organization called DARPA.