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Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves

• drewcon 6y ago
  I would have loved to see the data of gas alone compared to the data when gas range is properly vented.
  • auslegung 6y ago
    Same. I’m disappointed that CARB’s solution is to ban all gas from homes by 2022 instead of finding ways to make gas safer, ie ventilate it outside. Gas ranges cook MUCH better than electric in almost every way, so why shouldn’t we be allowed to use them if they can be used safely?
    • jsperson 6y ago
      If you ever get a chance, try an induction stove. We got one because the size of the gas line into our house was marginal for running heater, hot water, and a couple of fireplaces concurrently. I just didn't want to futz with potential problems. It turned out to be a great decision. They are remarkably safe. The surface only gets hot from heat from the pan so it doesn't bake stuff on like electric/gas. It boils water just as fast as gas and is quite responsive. The only downside is that the pans must be ferrous, but that has turned out to not be too big of a deal. Also the oven is electric, which in my opinion is actually better than gas - the broiler works better in particular.
      • refurb 6y ago
        I recently switched to an induction range and so far I've considered it a downgrade from gas (maybe that will change over time). For some reason I get a buzzing sound when the stove applies current (minor). It does have the instant heat that gas does, but what I've noticed is it doesn't have the visual feedback. When cooking with gas, it's easy to tell how much you've turned the heat up or down, just look at the flame. I'll probably get used to it over time, but I miss gas at this point in time.
        • jsperson 6y ago
          Those are accurate and reasonable criticisms. I've gotten used to all that over time. I'm not a sophisticated cook by any means so my need for feedback is not boiling something over (setting of 6.5 or so does the job for mac and cheese after it's boiling). I am the family safety officer though. Love the fact that it's not a super hot surface and that I won't be running across the house after smelling gas - an actual event that could have made for a bad Thanksgiving. I'm also the cleanup guy. After three years and almost no scrubbing the surface still looks new.
          • refurb 6y ago
            There you go. I may just be an old crank who doesn't like change. I did put up with electric resistive for a long time before switching to gas and I dealt with it just fine. I'm only 1 month into inductive so let's see how things go. In the grand scheme of things I'm pretty sure I've survive. :)
        • DeRock 6y ago
          > I've noticed is it doesn't have the visual feedback Does it not have a power/intensity knob or setting that’s displayed? Even with gas ranges that’s what is used because the flame is blocked by the pot.
          • refurb 6y ago
            I can glance under the pot to see the flame. On my induction stove, 5 is medium and 6 is boiling. Not linear at all.
            • robocat 6y ago
              I suspect that's a problem specific to your stove model. As you visit friend's places, see if they have different brands of inductive stovetop, and try them out if they do. Also maybe try a pot with a thicker ferrous base?
        • KineticLensman 6y ago
      • kalleboo 6y ago
        I've used induction stoves at friends' places and at AirBnBs and I've always hated them. Possibly I just need to spend more time with one to learn it. They're super fast at boiling water, yes, but whenever I've frying stuff it seems extremely picky about alignment and eventually starts beeping at me and shutting off. I also had lots of difficulty picking a perfect power level, which is trivial with gas. The granularity in the digital controls seems too poor, or it has something to do with the thermostat not having direct contact like it does in an old electric stove? The biggest issue though is every IH stove I've used has had touch controls on the top glass panel which means if you have any spills or overflow, you can't even turn it off.
        • jader201 6y ago
          Maybe I don’t cook enough, but your biggest issue is one I never face. A) I very rarely have any spills, and B) when I do, they’re never so much that they cover the controls (which are at front and center of stove, and not by the burners themselves, which is the way mast are designed). Just seems like an odd issue for it to be your “biggest” turnoff from induction.
        • zaphoyd 6y ago
          We love our induction stoves, but definitely have had issues finding ones that have good controls. A lot of the cheap units don't have much granularity in heat settings, but the higher end ones have gas-like, nearly continuous options. All of them, high and low end, seem to be suffering (like cars) from some of the modern UX theory that if something can possibly be a touch screen it should be. We've settled for a unit that has physical, clickable, tactile buttons to control the temperature and a numeric readout that clearly states the current temp and all controls on the side, away from spills. I'd love to find an induction stove with a plan old knob for each hob though.
    • dralley 6y ago
      Electric induction works pretty well. It's the resistive stoves that are crap. I dislike the fact that gas stoves typically come attached to gas ovens, and gas ovens are kinda crap. Electric/resistive actually works better there. Less moisture, less smells, more efficient, seems to heat up faster and give off less waste heat.
      • mywittyname 6y ago
        Honestly, induction works better than all but the most high-end gas ranges. The cheaper gas burners can produce the BTUs, they just do a poor job utilizing them. Induction, OTOH, puts nearly 100% of its energy into the pan.
        • chinhodado 6y ago
          Is it? It has been a while since I read it but there was an article comparing the energy efficiency of different cooking devices and even though induction cooker is at the top the efficiency is only 70%-80% something. Edit: Found it: > There are no Energy Star® certifications for ranges, but research by the U.S. Department of Energy indicates an induction cooker is 84% efficient at energy transfer, versus 74% for a smooth-top electric unit, giving it a heating performance comparable to a gas element. More significantly, induction is 90% efficient with its power use, using 2.8 kW to deliver 2.52 kW. This is a substantial improvement over electric coils, which use 2.0 kW to deliver 1.1 kW (a 55% efficiency), and over gas, which uses 3.5 kW to generate 1.75 kW (a 50% efficiency). https://insteading.com/blog/energy-efficient-induction-cooking/ https://insteading.com/blog/energy-efficient-induction-cooki...
          • mywittyname 6y ago
            So with many gas ranges, most of the BTUs produced go up past the side of the pan and into the exhaust vent, rather than getting absorbed by the pan and used to heat your food. Fancy Wolf and Vulcan ranges have burner designs that mitigate this issue, but I've never see them on anything cheaper than a few thousand dollars. OTOH, even a basic GE induction range has almost no heat waste. So while a burner might only be rated for 10k BTUs, all of that heat is going into your pan. Which is how they do things like boil water in 2 minutes. The biggest issue with induction is that the larger ones have enormous power requirements.
    • asix66 6y ago
      Gas is NOT “much better”. When boiling a pot of water, induction is 74 percent efficient at transforming and transferring input energy to the water, and the gas range comes in at 32 percent. The induction method was 32 percent faster and consumed 57 percent less energy. [1] We have an induction cooktop, and it’s amazing how quickly it can bring liquids to a boil. The only thing I can see that gas has over induction electric is durability. You can slam pans down without worry of breaking the cooktop. Useful in a commercial setting, but at home I’d take induction over gas any day. [1] https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooking-gas-or-induction-4858206 https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooki...
    • crazygringo 6y ago
      > Gas ranges cook MUCH better than electric in almost every way Not modern electric ones. I cook a lot, and I moved from a kitchen with a modern electric range, to a gas one... and it was a definite downgrade. Quite simply, modern electric ranges will heat your pan faster than gas ones can. It's seriously crazy. And of course they heat more evenly, instead of in a single "ring" in the middle or outside of your pan. I'm not even talking about expensive inductive ranges. I'm talking about electric resistance ones -- but modern ones that are a single smooth surface of glass/ceramic. The only change you have to get used to is that if you need to instantly reduce the heat, you need to move the pan off the burner rather than just turn it off. But that's just a change in habit. Also modern glass-top ranges are infinitely easier to clean. Just a single smooth surface.
      • bitwize 6y ago
        Electric glass-cooktop ranges also provide added benefit to landlords. All the landlord needs to do is require that the tenant leave the range in pristine condition or forfeit the cost of replacing the cooktop from their security deposit. Since it's virtually impossible for a person who actually cooks to leave the cooktop in like-new condition after a year -- even with special cooktop cleansers -- you may never have to pay a security deposit back in full, ever again!
        • mattgreenrocks 6y ago
          I've been using Barkeeper's Friend to clean mine since we started. It seems quite effective, though impossible to get it back to absolute pristine condition.
        • rascul 6y ago
          This isn't generally true in the US. Rental laws typically allow for normal wear and tear.
      • com2kid 6y ago
        > Not modern electric ones. I cook a lot, and I moved from a kitchen with a modern electric range, to a gas one... and it was a definite downgrade. My only concern is how well a wok will heat up on induction. Gas has the benefit of wrapping around the wok, I worry that induction won't do that. :/ I hate the smooth glass electric stoves, if a pan is even slightly warped it won't work. I've waited 20+ minutes for a pot of water to boil on an electric glass top because the pot had a slight bow to it so only a tiny fraction sat on the actual stove. Also the last glass top I had got messed up the first time a sugary liquid over boiled and spilled on it. Never could get it looking brand new again (and most glass tops I've seen have stains, even after being vigorously cleaned by professionals!)
    • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >so why shouldn’t we be allowed to use them if they can be used safely? Because California generally decides these things not based on whether they can be done safely, but whether they can be done unsafely. If someone could be harmed by something then nobody can have that something. That's just how they do things.
      • auslegung 6y ago
        Then they should ban living. It can be done very unsafely.
  • coffeefirst 6y ago
    Right. And there's going to be a big difference between new appliances and 40-year-machinery that's still in old houses. It's worth splitting that out.
• sokoloff 6y ago
  I can't help but wonder if the effects noted in the study may just turn out to be largely correlated effects rather than causative effects. Are gas stoves more/less prevalent in houses based on incomes, geographic regions, urban vs suburban, etc? Are unvented gas stoves more common in some areas? Are gas stoves used as central heating systems more common in older, often smaller/lower-income housing (it's pretty surely "yes" on that last point)? Do many low-income housing units have induction cooktops? (I suspect "no") If gas stoves were more common in cities, I can imagine that other city factors might be causal yet show up as correlated in the study. (I did try to read for controls the study included, but that was not well-covered in the article.)
  • mywittyname 6y ago
    Generally speaking, the further north you go, the more prevalent gas/oil/propane is for heating and cooking. The BTU per $ efficiency for those sources is unmatched by electric. North-eastern and mid-western winters get cold and brutal. It's just not feasible to heat a home using electric in these areas without serious consideration put into insulation. Rural homes, in my experience, use propane stored in tanks onsite, rather than natural gas piped in from a central source. And older suburban homes use onsite "heating oil" stored in tanks, usually in the basement, though, these homes are often converted to use nat-gas piped in from a utility.
    • crazygringo 6y ago
      > The BTU per $ efficiency for those sources is unmatched by electric. I'm curious, with good insulation and modern heat pumps, does electric win these days? (Let's assume we're talking about winters that get down to 0°F at night, but not -30°F.)
      • pacbard 6y ago
        I think that the issue with heat pumps is that they don't really work well in sub-freezing temperatures, making them mostly useless in colder climates. There are dual fuel systems that use heat pumps until they stop working and switch to heating using a regular furnace. They cost a little more but they provide some marginal savings (even if those depend on the cost of both electricity and whatever fuel the furnace uses).
• pbronez 6y ago
  I'm amazed by how complex indoor air quality is. Heating, cooling, filtering, cycling outdoor air... none of it is as straightforward as you'd hope. I noticed a substantial improvement in my health when I started putting HEPA air filters all over my house, and another jump when I moved away from a major road. Now COVID-19's airborne spread has bumped this issue from annoyance to life and death. It seems like this is an area where IoT should really deliver the goods. I should be able to cheaply add networked sensors, fans, filters, and vents to my home to automatically monitor air quality and temperature, then take appropriate action. Sadly, we're basically stuck with smart thermostats that spy on you and deliver little benefit over a local solution. I had a lot of hope for IoT air conditioning vents, but those products never seemed to materialize. Indoor air quality monitors are expensive and inaccurate. Nobody is offering me a real-time fluid dynamics model of the heat and pollutant situation in my home, let alone responding to it appropriately. Amazing how hard it is to create reliable, computable models of the world...
  • sjg007 6y ago
    New homes have ERVs or HRVs and some have ventilating dehumidifiers. You could put an AQI sensor on it to run them as needed but generally they are either timed per hour and on a humidistat. New homes also have to have gas appliances (except for the stove) with their own air intake and powered exhaust. All gas stoves should be below a hood with a ducted outside vent, the more powerful the better.
    • pbronez 6y ago
      I'm not familiar with those acronyms. Googling suggests ERV = Energy Recovery Ventilator [0] and HRV = Heat Recovery Ventilator [1]. Wikipedia says these are mostly about energy efficiency but also have air quality benefits. It's not clear to me how this helps with indoor air quality - maybe better humidity and temperature regulation? They also seem to require a centralized air conditioning/heating system. That would give you a nice central place to put an air quality monitor. The big challenge though is that often these central systems don't process all air in the building evenly. Multi-zone systems help. 1000% agree on the venting. It occurs to me that I have some gas heaters that I should double-check the venting on... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation
• sandworm101 6y ago
  I'm all for electrification, but it is not the full answer when it comes to indoor air quality. Too often "electrification" is cover for just not ventilating a room. Rather than air ducts which waste valuable space, a developer would rather throw in an electric baseboard heater and a tiny window. Net result: a sealed room with no real airflow. Dust, mold ... name any indoor pollutant and it will be worse without ventilation.
• seaerkin 6y ago
  Any advice on what to do if you have a gas stove in a smaller house without proper ventilation?
  • sjg007 6y ago
    Install a vent hood that exhausts outside. If you can't do that, install an extraction fan in the window or open a window and leave it open for 5 mins before and after you cook. With an extraction fan or vent you probably want to open a window as well when runnig. You could also run exhaust fans in the bathroom which would help.
  • soupson 6y ago
    Austin Air makes standing air purifiers that filter NO2 from gas stoves. Here is their write up about it. https://austinair.com/is-your-gas-stove-making-your-child-sick/ https://austinair.com/is-your-gas-stove-making-your-child-si...
  • throwaway201103 6y ago
    Crack a window while you're cooking.
• refurb 6y ago
  This seems like a bit of a stretch. Properly functioning gas stoves are very clean burning. If they were focused on improperly burning stoves, I'd agree. And why stop at gas stoves? Plenty of homes have gas water heaters and gas furnaces, even in the absence of gas stoves. Yes, if properly vented it's a non-issue, but if they aren't? And what catches my eye are statements like... "gas stoves have much higher concentrations of NO2 than those using electric stoves—levels that would violate legal limits if measured outdoors" Ok, what is "much higher"? And violate "legal limits"? What legal limits? Occupational exposure? Car exhaust emissions? Not being specific makes me think they are just playing with words.
  • Ericson2314 6y ago
    I think unlike stoves, gas water heaters and gas furnaces are legally required to be properly vented? > very clean burning I think the issue is sometimes not the methane itself (though I suppose nitrogen in the air + methane could explain some of these things), but bits of food and other things that also burn.
    • throwaway201103 6y ago
      There are unvented gas heaters. Example: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dyna-Glo-30000-BTU-Wall-Or-Floor-Mount-Natural-Gas-Or-Liquid-Propane-Vent-free-Infrared-Heater/1000282065 https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dyna-Glo-30000-BTU-Wall-Or-Floor-Mo...
      • Ericson2314 6y ago
        Ew, but at least those are a lot smaller. Thanks for the link.
• bovermyer 6y ago
  So here's a good example of conflicting requirements. I'd like to not die of air pollution, so gas stoves are problematic. I'd also like to be able to get consistent and even heat out of my cooking heat source, so electric stoves are problematic. It'd be nice if someone could just make something I can cook on that is reliable, even, and not going to kill me or give me cancer.
  • vitalysh 6y ago
    Use induction cook top? I find it to be much better than gas or regular electric heating stove.
  • virmundi 6y ago
    Induction cooking? Electric with even heat. Might be problematic for cast irons if they heat up too quickly.
  • DeRock 6y ago
    The solution already exists: induction. It heats the cooking appliance directly, and can provide varying power/heat settings without having to duty cycle (like an electric cooktop does).
  • FreshFries 6y ago
    It is a good example of 2 requirements (not die of air pollution vs stable temperature of your oven) that you present as equal but one should have a 100 times more weight which would make the issue none problematic.
    • ghaff 6y ago
      That's assuming you're actually going to die of air pollution if you use a gas stove. I don't consider the issue especially problematic; I like cooking with gas and will continue to do so.
    • drewzero1 6y ago
      I would disagree. I won't downplay the very real risk of air pollution, but unstable oven temperature can make it difficult to cook meat to a safe temperature, greatly increasing risk of foodborne illness. The requirements are not necessarily equal, but you can't disregard safe temperature guidelines unless you never make food with raw meat or eggs.
• scythe 6y ago
  >a health threat that has been hiding in plain sight for decades, they say—can no longer be ignored. “It’s fundamental and imperative,” said Jones. “We ought to get up on the rooftops and shout about it.” This is kind of characteristic of the scientist-authoritarian perspective that breeds resentment of academia and science in general. Researchers spent decades, per the article, making up their minds that gas stoves are bad. Now, some of them want to see restrictions in place in a few years' time. The lay public is effectively asked to change their minds faster than the experts did. A 24% increase in the risk of asthma is bad, but people knowingly choose to take bigger risks every day. This isn't an emergency: it would be really nice to see a proper communications strategy, because all of this shouting from the rooftops has contributed to an absolutely stupefying epidemic of ludicrous conspiracy theories.
  • oceanplexian 6y ago
    Makes perfect sense to me, tax revenues are surging and we have already solved all other global emissions problems like coal and air travel so let's ban home appliances with extremely efficient complete combustion. The only thing is we need to do is follow the San Francisco model and make sure we have a waiver process for upscale restaurants and the wealthy so we can continue using Gas in our second and third kitchens.
• raspyberr 6y ago
  This does seem intuitive and it's a real shame because I find gas stoves to be so much better to cook on. Electric/hotplate stoves are really slow and unreactive. Induction stoves are better and heat up really quickly but still feel awkward to cook on. You can't tilt the pan to baste without it turning off.
  • killion 6y ago
    There is a limit to the height you can tilt but you definitely can on the units I've used. I sear and baste in cast iron very often. If you lift it too high the stove will warn you that it does not detect a pan.
• Ericson2314 6y ago
  The real issue is that kitchens with gas stoves are not required to have a chimney or other exhaust mechanism. WTF. Solve that and the health crisis is gone: richer cooking aficionados will install chimneys, and miserly landlords will install electric appliances.
  • rsync 6y ago
    "The real issue is that kitchens with gas stoves are not required to have a chimney or other exhaust mechanism." Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada. In fact, many code jurisdictions are sophisticated enough to require make-up air ducts, etc. These building codes specify vertical distance from the rangetop, CFM rating, and hood area (which typically overlaps the range area by 2-4 inches on each side). EDIT: To clear up some confusion - most code jurisdictions don't force you to update existing installs unless you are rebuilding/remodeling - so if you have an older apartment/home ... who knows. New construction is going to vent gas ranges to the outdoors.
    • Anechoic 6y ago
      Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada. Is "powered vent" supposed to imply exhausting to the exterior? While every home I've seen does have some sort of powered vent over a gas range, the overwhelming majority of them have recirculating vents rather external venting.
    • Ericson2314 6y ago
      My current apartment has a range hood without any exhaust vent. What the hell is that supposed to do?!
      • NikolaNovak 6y ago
        Same here; we have a gas stove and a useless range hood above it. I guess it's supposed to filter it? Or previous owner installed it just to skirt the requirements ;-<
      • 6y ago
• mrlala 6y ago
  From what I'm reading here, does this mean the vent above the stove should be on all the time while cooking? I will often turn on our vent, but it's certainly not something I'm doing every time I turn on the stove..
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • exhilaration 6y ago
    Personally, after reading this, I think I'm going to keep the vent on whenever we cook with gas. I was already aware that C02 goes up significantly when our gas burners are on (I have an Awair unit in the kitchen).
• bjt2n3904 6y ago
  The title on this article is very meta and clickbaity. 1. Starts with "experts". This is some weird... appeal to authority in the title? Why do you have to tell us that they're experts? Would we not come to that conclusion ourselves? 2. Tells us the "experts" are "sounding the alarm". This seems like a cheap way to make something sound more urgent than it really is. I've got a thousand "alarms" going off in my world right now, you want to add "gas stoves" to it? (Ah, but you're an expert... how foolish of me not to listen to your clarion call!) 3. The "hidden dangers of gas stoves". Are... ...are what?
  • ghastmaster 6y ago
    My suspicion is that with natural gas prices expected to rise due to decrease in fracking, coal companies are likely funding research and native ads to pick up as much business as possible. This would keep money out of the hands of their competitors. That's not to say the information presented is not useful.
    • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Coal is a sinking ship that even the coal companies want off of. Nobody is gonna use a coal stove and if people switch to electric increasing demand they still won't be building coal plants. If anything the people who stand to gain here are the solar and wind crowd.
  • deleted 6y ago
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• wackget 6y ago
  This website caused a massive spike in CPU usage on my instance of Firefox. Not sure what's going on but I wouldn't trust this site at all.
• jcims 6y ago
  Unrelated to the article, but I'm surprised how many new gas stoves do not have a flame interlock on the burner valve. I have a nearly new Samsung gas range, and if I twist the valve just a bit too far past the igniter stage, it will happily pump propane into my home until my 500 gallon tank runs empty.
  • firethief 6y ago
    There is no way to make a stove safe in the face of incorrect usage. I wouldn't be able to judge whether flame interlocks should be mandatory without any statistics about the frequency of this type of accident.
    • jcims 6y ago
      Sure. The risk is low, it just seems unusual given the tendency to wrap everything in five layers of liability reduction features.
      • firethief 6y ago
        It seems society's tolerance for mortal danger depends more on the cause of the risk than its magnitude. I guess the occasional gas accident is one of the acceptable reasons for people to die.
  • mschuster91 6y ago
    > Unrelated to the article, but I'm surprised how many new gas stoves do not have a flame interlock on the burner valve. In Germany, it's (mostly) mandated by law to have these (see §4 FeuV for example: https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayFeuV2008-4 https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayFeuV2008-4), the only exception is when there's a powerful forced air ventilation system present and operating. Can't remember ever not seeing an interlock as a result, even the cheap IKEA gas stoves have one.
  • crashcoot 6y ago
    The Kenmore stove that was installed here has the ignition feature past the 9 levels of gas you can choose to release. That means to even get a flame going there would have to be wasted gas pushed into the air, and a lot of times it does not even light for several seconds, which usually leads to a following smell.
• wskinner 6y ago
  It seems there are three separate issues: 1. NO2 produced by gas appliances 2. Various pollutants produced during cooking 3. Poor venting The article mostly pushes for legislative solutions to 1, namely banning new gas stoves and incentivizing electric stoves. I wonder if improving ventilation and filtering might actually be a more effective solution, as it has the potential to address all three issues.
  • com2kid 6y ago
    So, fun fact, huge differences in efficiencies of removing pollutants even for vented range hoods. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1420274 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1420274 (Kinda long...) tl;dr those stupid microwave exhaust vents may only remove, at worst, ~25% of no2 from the environment. A cheap hood, 30%. A really good hood, 90%.
  • ummonk 6y ago
    Solving 1 partially solves 2 since people will cook a lot less if they have to use electric cooktops.
• nslav 6y ago
  Indoor air pollution due to gas stoves is something I became aware of about a year ago, and I've done some reading about it since then as I have a gas stove and two young children. As far as I can tell it's not an issue of a properly or improperly operating appliance, but rather NO2 is an unavoidable byproduct of gas combustion. I can't locate the exact sources now, but it's apparently very difficult to vent the NO2 to the outside with a range hood as the hood is so far away from the flame that a massive amount of airflow is required. This introduces an entirely new set of problems where makeup air must be provided to avoid depressurizing the house. If it's hot or cold out bringing this makeup air is a huge waste of energy as heated or air conditioned air is exhausted and unconditioned air is brought in. My quick solution for now was to replace the range with two portable induction cooktops which have been working great. I've been happy with now they provide the fast temperature response of gas although there was a bit of a learning curve at first.
  • JamesSwift 6y ago
    Just curious.. what was tough to learn at first? Just how to translate the dial to "traditional" heat settings?
    • nslav 6y ago
      The biggest surprise for me was just how quickly an induction cooktop can heat up a pan. When using gas I would often turn the stove on as I finished chopping vegetables to let it preheat, but after burning a few things on the induction cooktop I realized I need to have everything ready to go in. Other trouble I had was largely due to the Ikea Tillreda cooktop I purchased first; it only has ten temperature settings which made it difficult or impossible to find the correct setting when sauteeing. The second cooktop I purchased was a Duxtop model which has twenty temperature settings which seems to work just fine, and the Ikea cooktop still finds use boiling water and other tasks where precise temperature control does not matter. Another problem that I have with both cooktops is that the actual heated area of the pan is only about 6" in diameter, whereas it seems to be common for a full size induction range or cooktop to have at least one 12" element. This is more noticeable than with a standard electric stove because the heated area on induction comes up to temperature almost immediately whereas the unheated areas of the pan take a long time to warm up through conduction. Edit: I should add in case the above sounds negative that I love using induction and can't wait to have a full size version! The digital control and fast heating give me better consistency and less time standing around waiting than gas. I would however recommend that anyone thinking about switching to induction first buy a portable unit to try out as decent ones are well under $100.
• CydeWeys 6y ago
  I have a nice gas stovetop that I really like. The largest burner on it is 20kBTU/hr, and the regular size burners are 11kBTU/hr. Converted to Watts, that's 5.9 kW and 3.2 kW respectively. And keep in mind, those figures are per burner, and it's common for me to be using at least two of them at once (though not necessarily all at max power). I think I'd want a total power allowance of roughly 10 kW just for the stovetop burners, which works out to something like 40 amps at 240V. And it's gonna be more to support the oven, which is part of the same integrated units (the microwave, refrigerator, and countertop outlets for electric kettles, slow cookers, and such will also all need substantial power, but that's separate circuits). Apparently it's common these days in new construction to run a dedicated 50 amp 240V circuit just for the combo stove/range. That's something like 10 kW of continuous power @ an 80% safety margin! Anyway, electrical kitchen appliances sure as hell do use a lot of power. Good thing you're not using them most of the day, and that even when you are using them, you're often not running them close to full power. But it does seem possible to achieve as much heating with electrical as with gas, which is nice. Hell, if you have some induction burners on that stovetop, and I tend to cook in cast iron so pretty much all of my most frequently used pots and pans would already work fine with induction anyway, then you wouldn't need anything close to 5.9 kW on the biggest burner to achieve the same heating. That's because one of the downsides of gas is that a lot of heat gets lost to the air, which isn't nearly as much of a problem on an electrical range where the cookware is sitting in direct contact with the heating element. Electrical thus achieves a higher overall heat transfer efficiency for the same power, especially with induction where the cookware itself becomes the heating element. That's a bit of a digression but apparently you can achieve high power outputs with electrical stoves, it's just that a lot of the electrical stoves a lot of us have experience with are shitty ones from decades past that legitimately did not heat well.
  • war1025 6y ago
    I was looking at our breaker box a few weeks back and realized that roughly half the circuits in our house are for the kitchen. I think something like 6 separate breakers. Our stove is on a 40 amp circuit. From my reading, 50 amp is pretty common. On top of that there is a dedicated 20 amp circuit for our microwave (which broke a few years back and we never replaced) Plus a dedicated circuit for the garbage disposal / dish washer. Plus one for the fridge Plus one or two more for countertop appliances. It's kind of crazy to think about.
• AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
  I've got a Coway Air Purifier in my 1-bedroom apartment, near the separator between the kitchen and the dining room. We have a gas stove. It's been amazing to see how much what I considered "light" stovetop cooking will set it off and make it spend the next 20 minutes on max settings trying to decontaminate the air. Pan-frying and stir-frying are expected triggers, but even the evaporated vapor from a pot of simmering soup can make it momentarily angry. Meat fat seems the worst offender. Nothing angers it quite like trying to brown/sear meat does. God help us when I cook bacon in the cast-iron skillet. Even if there's no smoke (I keep the heat at medium low to prevent the bacon from burning), the AP might continue to run for up to an hour after I've turned the damn stove off!
  • kalleboo 6y ago
    We have a Sharp air purifier and it's fun watching it go off whenever we empty the diaper bin
    • DoingIsLearning 6y ago
      But looking at it purely from a technical standpoint but the Sharp and Coway and other actively monitoring filters are kicking into action because of an increased particle count in the air. Whereas the article is about NO2 gas emissions trapped indoors. I am not sure these HEPA filters are fine enough to actually filter NO2, SO2, CO, etc, are they?
      • CarVac 6y ago
        HEPA cannot filter molecules.
      • BoorishBears 6y ago
        Activated Carbon filters can capture VOCs and gases, but you need a ton of carbon, and you need to replace the carbon when it's "full" (since recharging it in your home kind of defeats the purpose)
  • SamBam 6y ago
• jaclaz 6y ago
  In Europe there is a UNI norm, dating back to 1974 or so, mandating the need of both an evacuation and an air inlet in case of gas stoves. Even if it is essentially for safety, it has (where implemented correctly) the side effect (advantage in this case) of creating a flux of fresh air. Where this is not needed by the norms (electric stoves and similar), expecially in modern "energy saving" houses, problems of humidity and mold often arise. As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning, nowadays - for one reason or the other - most people do not do this and - coupled with the increased air tightness of windows and doors - makes mechanical ventilation a need.
  • vram22 6y ago
    > As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning This is a common practice (except in very cold or highly polluted parts of India) even today - and not just briefly, either - windows are often open until evening, until a bit before mosquito entering time. And some people again open windows after 8 pm or so, because the lore is that mosquitoes won't move much after that. But that is oldish stuff, and it can be different these days. And even in those colder or more polluted areas, some people still do it.
    • valarauko 6y ago
      Lots of Indian homes have removable mosquito mesh on their windows, so you can keep your windows open all day (and night).
      • vram22 6y ago
        Right, it is called netlon, and some even have it as fixed mesh. Didn't think to mention that earlier.
  • arp242 6y ago
    I've seen apartments and office buildings where it's literally impossible to open windows, as well as quite a few where you could only open the windows by a few cm. I worked in an office building without windows that could open years ago, and I got a headache around 2pm every day. It had some mechanical ventilation, but it's not really the same as actual fresh air. It was by far the most horrible office I've ever worked at. A lot of people also don't like it when I open windows for a bit to let some fresh air in, even when the air is clearly stale and musty. I don't know why people are so opposed to opening windows. My pet theory is that it's a subconscious psychological connection to a certain piece of software :-)
• JohnJamesRambo 6y ago
  Most stoves in homes I see have no venting to the outside which is absurd. You should see how the CO2 goes up in the room when you cook.
  • 52-6F-62 6y ago
    I've lived in newer buildings the past 6 years or so, with modern HVAC systems, the works. One thing each of them has had (or neglected, really) is a phony vent for the stove. There is a hood fan, and what appears to be conduit leading to a vent, but there isn't actually any vent. It's an empty casing made of chipboard. The hood fan just blows upward onto the front of the cabinets above the stove and leaves a delightfully greasy trail. At best, it does some minor filtering. But based on the grease deposits on the aforementioned cabinets, it doesn't do much. We're moving to townhouse about an hour outside of town [in a beautiful town on the escarpment to boot]. The house was built in 1896 and has better venting than our current modern, downtown "luxury" condo. And the dust. Let me tell you about the dust. It's unceasing here. We can dust one day and inside of a week it will be as dusty as if nobody has lived here in months. We're looking forward to being in a space that has been built and tended to be lived in rather than an image of a dwelling that is really only a vehicle for investment.
• ksec 6y ago
  On the subject of Air filtering, do we have solutions other then HEPA filter which has a running cost. Something that is one-off or may be paid once a year on a relatively cheaper price? I also have windows opened most of the time just to let fresh air in. I also dont see any solution on the market that fix the fresh air problem.
  • dralley 6y ago
    Put a 1-inch filter over a $20 box fan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5APw_SLUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5APw_SLUU
    • DanBC 6y ago
      How does a filter help with gases?
      • strangegecko 6y ago
        HEPA filters only help for particulates. For gases you need activated carbon (usually more than is used in commercial air purifiers) or something else.
  • inquirerofsorts 6y ago
    > solutions other then HEPA filter A basic indoor water fountain captures quite a lot of indoor pollution, to the point that it's likely far more energy and cost efficient than pumping air through a disposable filter. There's plenty of research on this.
    • guest_guest 6y ago
      Could you share a source for this?
    • strangegecko 6y ago
      An air purifier with hepa filter will filter the entire air supply in a room within X hours, how is a small water fountain going to pull out particles from elsewhere in the room into the water?
• ruste 6y ago
  I'm going to put together two points that people have raised in this thread: 1) Asthma is strongly correlated with gas heating and stove use. 2) Gas heating and stove use is strongly correlated with latitude. This is a case of correlation not being causation. One of the primary predictors of asthma is colder winters/latitude [2]. It doesn't look like the study controls for this in any way [1]. [1] https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/42/6/1724/737113 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3072993/
  • samstave 6y ago
    Uhm, I am somewhat of a pyro.. I LOVE fires. I burn a crap-ton of wood... I have literally no allergies nor asthma, breathing problems - I have a gas stove and a gas heater in my house... I will burn a bitch at any chance I get! I literally broke my brick hearth last week chopping wood. I was one grounded for a week when my dad came home (general contractor) and I was staying home from school with the flu, fever, and I was pumping wood into that wood-burning stove like I was trying to drive a train... it was like 110 degrees in the house.... my dad was furious, Now, I have an endless supply of wood and a really nice fireplace - ive been going NUTs burning everything I can!
    • jcims 6y ago
      Same. I've been slack this year but have about 15 cords sitting out back waiting to be split (half of was standing dead so it's good to go). I know heat is heat but for some reason wood-stove heat seems like it just works better on the human body. Ours is in the basement, so it's 95 down there and that heats the entire floor upstairs.
      • samstave 6y ago
        Where do you live? I want some!! --- I grew up in Lake Tahoe. and in 1982 - there was the biggest winter in over 100 years - we had 30 feet of snow, and no power - and we cooked all our food on the wood burning stove. I had deliver care packages to the various tourists who got stuck in their houses due to the snow - and we would have people come to our house to bath because we had hot water.... I recall making popcorn each night on the stove... Wood burning stoves are the best!
• treeman79 6y ago
  Moved into a mega-cor rental. Noticed a chemical smell. Not what I considered a typical gas smell. Was assured it was just new carpets/Flooring etc. 3 months of run around on it. I was so disoriented I started walking into traffic. Kids couldn’t spell they’re own names. It was a major gas leak, plus carbon monoxide. Furnace and stove. New Carbon monoxide alarm never went off. Yea, massive medical problems all around from that. Completely destroyed our lives.
  • gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    > New carbon monoxide alarm never went off. I don't doubt any of what you're saying, but that seems odd.
    • jly 6y ago
      Typical CO alarms only go off when there is a level of gas that is an imminent danger. A lower level of gas could be present and go totally undetected, but present an ongoing health risk. There are special CO monitors that are capable of detecting and alerting down to 5ppm but they are rarely installed in homes.
      • treeman79 6y ago
        Guy from gas company stuck it over stove, along with his device. His was showing extreme numbers. Mine blinked happily. He said this was common. Always get one that showed actual numbers.
    • mint2 6y ago
      Well it sounds like the bulk of the pollution was methane and hydrocarbons, maybe some co alarms don’t do well in heavy background gas like that.
  • mattgreenrocks 6y ago
    Woah, how did you figure that out? Hope you are recovering okay.
• jonnycomputer 6y ago
  Gas cooking stoves perform better than most electric. Unfortunate fact.
  • watertom 6y ago
    Induction works better than gas, we switched about 5 years ago, my wife as die hard gas and she won't go back. Right now we're just starting to see induction units that will manage to temperature instead of on a scale of 1-10. Breville in combination with Polyscience, came out with a unit, The Control Freak Temperature Controlled Commercial Induction Cooking System, that not only can manage through the glass temperature but also has a temperature probe to really manage temperature, down to the 1/10 of a degree. It allows for cooking to be done in ways that can't be done previously. Commercial kitchens are starting to switch over to induction units because it's much easier to keep kitchens clean, and it also significantly lowers the temperatures in kitchens.
• thursday0987 6y ago
  gas stove are just the next target of the global warming alarmists. See san francisco's recent ban on them. This is just a propaganda piece in order to manufacture the public perception that we should give up the absolute miracle that is the ability to have a safe cooking fire, with adjustable and controllabe heat levels, with the turn of a dial. climate change cultilsts literally want to throw away the pinacle of 1000s of years of cooking technology and replace it with inferior products.
• gorpy7 6y ago
  I’m surprised there has been only 1 or 2 comments on HRV ERV. There are many products available to help exchange indoor air with outdoor air while conserving heat and or humidity. here is a smaller solution that is somewhat expandable. LUNOS e². I was hoping i’d get some more ideas from this discussion.
  • exhilaration 6y ago
    Thanks for the tip, the LUNOS e² looks interesting.
  • driverdan 6y ago
    The problem with small systems like the LUNOS e² is that they're incredibly overpriced. I wouldn't be surprised if its BoM is well under $50. It's basically some fans and plastic pieces.
    • gorpy7 6y ago
      That’s partly why i posted, i was hoping to learn of alternatives. Even at high prices, if the product works well and achieves the health gain...
  • turtlebits 6y ago
    Most houses (at least in the US) are so leaky that an ERV/HRV is just going to suck all the heat out, and cold air is going to come in through all the drafty places (and that doesn't necessarily mean fresh air, could be stale air from your crawl space). Wouldn't recommend for any existing construction unless you know how air tight your house is (get a blower door test done).
• hinkley 6y ago
  During the fires I had to explain to my partner why the CO2 levels in the house spiked so high (I have an AwAir) while she was baking. More and more I feel like most of us slept through science class. I don’t know what is happening, but it worries me.
• ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  Radon gas is another major threat if you live in a suburban environment.
• intrasight 6y ago
  Don't all new gas furnaces and hot water heaters vent combustion gasses outside via a PVC pipe? Mine do. As for stove, I.m planning to replace my old GE range with an induction range.
• justinzollars 6y ago
  Does anyone cook here? I love gas ranges and I'm getting sick of the war on gas. Cooking on electric sucks.
  • matwood 6y ago
    Agreed. I run the vent and usually crack a window when cooking just so food smells don't permeate the house forever. I also have a gas line on the patio so my grill never runs out of fuel.
  • OldHand2018 6y ago
    I have a traditional electric stove and, yes, it is not good compared to gas. But I've heard claims that induction is better than both. Have you tried that?
    • zaphoyd 6y ago
      We primarily cook on induction and (for us) it solves all of the issues with traditional electric and all the issues we have with gas. It can really be the best of most worlds (efficient, fast, precise, easy to clean). I do understand that there are a few edge cases that induction doesn't handle (legacy or specialty cookware, recipes that need a literal open flame).
      • OldHand2018 6y ago
        That's nice to hear. At some point I will likely upgrade. My cooktop and oven are on different circuits and my cooktop is currently on a 10 Amp circuit. Every induction cooktop I've seen so far demands either a 15 or 20 Amp circuit, so the upgrade isn't going to be as simple as I'd wish.
    • justinzollars 6y ago
      Yes, chefs I know use this. But I prefer gas because I cook on cast iron.
      • 6y ago
• MengerSponge 6y ago
  My rental has a gas stove and range, and the hood is unvented. I've started running all the upstairs bathroom fans when cooking. That, running a HEPA filter in my bedroom, and always keeping that door shut, is the only way to keep the PM2.5 count in my bedroom at a reasonable level. I picked up one of these a year ago, and highly recommend it: http://www.dylosproducts.com/dc1100paqmc.html http://www.dylosproducts.com/dc1100paqmc.html I tried to buy a Speck, but it looks like they're perpetually sold out: https://www.specksensor.com/ https://www.specksensor.com/
• indymike 6y ago
  Eliminating gas appliances by 2022 seems a bit on the extreme side when simply requiring vented range hoods would solve the issue. Requiring vented range hoods would be a good idea, regardless of the heat source. Smoke, from burning gas or burning chicken, generally isn't good.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • turtlebits 6y ago
    IME, even with a hood, most people don't turn them on unless there are off-putting smells, which usually don't happen unless you're burning food. Sad thing is that most are fairly noisy. I don't have a gas stove, but my AQ sensor reports high VOC while/after cooking and I'm reluctant to turn on the stove hood as it's so noisy.
• Overtonwindow 6y ago
  I think we are being sold a farce. Gas stoves and gas cooking have been fine for decades, what has not been fine, is the energy companies maintenance of their gas lines. Rather than force those companies to take better care of their gas line so we don’t have any more house explosions, policymakers are taking the convenient argument that natural gas is bad, and so we should ban the use of natural gas at homes, that way we won’t have any more explosions. See? Problem solved
• Glench 6y ago
  As Saul Griffith explains at Rewiring America (https://www.rewiringamerica.org/ https://www.rewiringamerica.org/), massively switching to all existing electric technology (cars, stoves, heat pumps, electric hot water heaters, rooftop and community solar panels, etc) and powering them by clean electricity will: - decarbonize 80% of US energy by as soon as 2035 - create up to 25 million new jobs - save the average household $1000-$2000 every year - massively reduce pollution-related health effects All without downgrading the size of our homes and vehicles (which probably should be done anyway though). Electrification is the way to go if we want to stay under 2 degrees of warming.
• floatingatoll 6y ago
  I’m glad that we’re taking steps to reduce pollution of the environment, but this treats only one symptom of indoor air pollution. As with Covid this year and secondhand cigarette smoke last decade, the problems of gas stoves stem not just from the burner, but from the ventilation of the environment around it. If we had required excellent fresh air ventilation for indoor spaces, we might not have had to ban indoor smoking. I don’t smoke but I don’t mind if others do, as long as I have fresh air that isn’t polluted by their smoke. We might not have had to ban indoor dining during Covid, as long as each table’s air is pulled upwards and away from other diners and exhausted into fresh air, since the ventilation could contain UV scrubbers on intake and exhaust. As another comment here describes, we wouldn’t have people being poisoned by gas stoves, because the pollution would be vented rapidly in any building where they’re used. Confronting the ventilation crisis is unfathomably difficult for America, and it’s unclear if politicians have the stomach to even consider it. I’m a little sad each time I see some new cause spin up to resolve an issue stemming from poor ventilation, even as I’m happy that the cause is correct in outcome. I just wish that we’d stop circling the issue and hone in on it and make it a national crisis, somehow. At the end of the day doing so would demand nationwide investment in revisions to the ventilation of every building in America, which would require national funding as most cannot afford to do so - and those that can would refuse, preferring to lobby against it instead of spending their own money. In the meantime, crack the windows of your home as often as you can afford to do so. This problem isn’t the fault of any single renter or homeowner, and in the short term, that’s all you can do. Ventilation previously on HN (139 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858155
  • tempestn 6y ago
    tl;dr: also leave your furnace fan in the on/recirculate mode rather than auto. -- Also if you have a central furnace, leave the fan in the on/recirculate mode, rather than 'auto'. The power usage of modern furnace fans is very minimal, and the effect on air quality is significant. Especially if your furnace has a fresh air intake, which most do. You can combine that with periodically cracking windows or running bathroom or stove exhaust fans (could even install a switch to automatically run the bathroom fan on a daily schedule). When things are sealed up, the furnace won't pull in a lot of outside air (but the recirculating still helps a lot), and then when you have an exhaust path (fan or window), it will pull in more. Then it's just a matter of finding out how much to exhaust. A bit each day should be fine, or you can get more precise with a CO2 sensor like [1]. Especially in a closed bedroom overnight, it's amazing the difference you'll see with the furnace fan and/or an exhaust fan running, or a window open. 1: https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Autopilot-Desktop-Monitor-Logger/dp/B01FYWU2IS https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Autopilot-Desktop-Monitor-L...
• throwawaysea 6y ago
  I'm confused - isn't this what range hoods are for? If you turn on your hood fan to its maximum, then presumably the impact to air quality is minimal. I happen to also have a counter-top induction stove, and it ALSO will trip off my air filters. I don't think triggering air filters is necessarily an indication of unhealthy air - the smell of good food kicking is due to particles reaching your nose and that happens with all methods of heating up food. But there is a greater philosophical question here: the article seems to be setting up for a war on gas stoves and gas heating. I know this is a goal of climate activists, and that push is already happening in places like Seattle where a prior attempt to ban gas in all new home construction was met with outrage and pulled back, only to now be replaced by a similar ban for commercial buildings (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/amid-increased-emissions-seattle-mayor-wants-to-ban-gas-heat-in-new-commercial-apartment-buildings/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/amid-incr...). Personally I want to be able to use gas ranges for cooking - electric cooking is simply no match for it, and I also just like the idea of cooking with fire. Should the state really be imposing all sorts of controls and restrictions in search of perfect safety? Can individuals not evaluate and make risk-benefit tradeoffs that suit themselves? After all, most people who have gas stoves do not have health issues like asthma, and the statistics quoted in this article seem to just be correlations rather than causal relationships.
• m3kw9 6y ago
  Funny it doesn’t say if the hood fan was turned on when measuring NO2
• linsomniac 6y ago
  I really wanted to try an induction range when we remodeled our kitchen a few years ago, but my wife wanted gas. I made a deal with her that if she didn't like the inductive, I would bring in gas and get her a gas range. I really liked the idea of the range top being a flat, solid surface, and staying relatively cool, keeping spills from baking on and making cleanup ridiculously easy. My wife tends to run hot, temperature wise, and gas ranges throw off a lot of heat into the surrounding area. The inductive range heats amazingly fast, reacts as fast as her parents gas range, and I can boil a teapot, pull it off, and immediately put my hand on the "burner". It's hot, sure, but on a gas or resistive range I'd have to go to the ER. Some people put down paper towels under pots before cooking to make cleanup easier. Cleanup has lived up to my expectations, very easy. The resistive solid surface ranges still get very hot, and a friend with one talks about how hard it is to get baked and burnt on foods off. Now with all this talk about the combustion byproducts being problematic, I'm convinced this was definitely the right choice.
  • derbOac 6y ago
    We moved into our house a couple of years ago. It had a nice gas range that we were pleased was in the home. When we moved in, we noticed this specific "gas particulate" smell throughout the house whenever we'd use the stove. It wasn't leaking gas, but rather this smell I associated with dirty burning or something. The other times I've smelled it have been in propane space heaters for outdoors. We replaced it with an induction range and have been completely happy with it. Heats amazingly fast, no burner to burn things, no emissions in the house, we love it. I never want to own another kind of range again.
    • wasdfff 6y ago
      That smell is typical with a gas range. You are supposed to run it with the vent hood on to prevent that.
      • derbOac 6y ago
        Interesting. There is a range vent hood but we could still smell it throughout the house (or at least most of it). Also, I've lived in several other places with gas ranges and never encountered that before. Maybe it was just worse with that range?
• voisin 6y ago
  Does anyone know if the same issues occur from gas fireplaces?
• aaron695 6y ago
  Given they are tieing it to Covid-19, which would be impossible to know yet they clearly are just on a mission against gas. That's their thing, that's how they make money. I guess believe them if you want. These things are the new religions. Air quality everywhere matters. Cooking with gas at home is pumping in a airborne substance. There's a good chance it might matter personally. But gas is changing the would environmentally and ethically for the better. We need to be sure from a neutral scientific source, if they still exist.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• mattgreenrocks 6y ago
  I'm curious how much of a danger furnaces and gas dryers pose as well. Article seemed light on detail there. Would a CO monitor help in detecting these issues? Or would I need something more?
  • outworlder 6y ago
    Furnaces should not exhaust ANY pollutants in your home. If they are, there's a crack or leak somewhere and they should be immediately shutoff and serviced. At no point the gas exhaust should mix with indoor air. I don't know about gas dryers but it would be surprising if they were any different.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• dr_orpheus 6y ago
  It does seem odd that the home heating natural gas appliances (water heater, furnace, etc.) have to pass Combustion Appliance Zone (CAZ) testing. It's basically a smoke test (sometimes literally) to ensure that the products of combustion are being safely vented out through the stacks in the house. While this exists to some extent for gas stoves, it doesn't seem to be mandatory to ensure a gas stove/vent hood is compliant. http://advancedhomeenergy.com/what-is-caz/ http://advancedhomeenergy.com/what-is-caz/
• mschuster91 6y ago
  > California is the birthplace of a growing movement by towns and cities to ban natural gas use in new construction. Nearly 40 cities and towns throughout the state have adopted ordinances mandating all-electric appliances in new residential buildings, with San Francisco among the most recent to do so. Good luck trying that in Europe, where gas price is a fraction of electricity (~6ct / kWh vs ~30ct / kWh). Additionally, using electricity for heating is madness - essentially the generator plant burns stuff to turn water into steam that rotates a generator, then there are transmission losses, and only then it's finally converted to heat. A gas flame is as direct an energy-to-heat transmission as it gets (although there are some losses here too, for compression stations). I'm paying 60€ a month for gas for both the heating and the stove in a ~60 m2 apartment, and 70€ in electricity. My direct neighbors who have electric heating and stove pay over 200€. Regarding the pollutant issue: open your windows while cooking, get a CO alarm and have your water heater regularly cleaned and inspected. That's basic life advice, and the latter is actually mandated by law in Germany.
• frankus 6y ago
  It seems like the successor to high-end gas stoves is pretty clearly induction. At the same time induction on some level is just an overpriced way of transmitting electrical power from the cooktop into the cookware (not unlike the old inductive-paddle-type electric car chargers). I wonder if there might be an opening for (electric) "conduction" cooktops. It would basically be a dedicated heat-proof and ventilated spot on the countertop with some high-current electrical receptacles (standard voltage in most of the world, but maybe wired for the slightly less common 240V in North America). They might include temperature feedback (something I'd love to see in induction cooktops too, maybe an IR thermometer hitting the cookware from below), possibly with controls built into the kitchen rather than the cookware. Of course this would substantially raise the cost of cookware, and in many ways this already exists in the form of "a countertop with electrical outlets and plug-in cooking appliances", but maybe there's an opportunity here.
  • regulation_d 6y ago
    Have you seen the PolyScience Control ºFreak? Four of those types of elements on cooktop? yes, please!
• srg0 6y ago
  And still cooking on gas stove is so much more satisfying than electric. It can go from 0 power to full thermal power sand back to zero instantly. It's compatible with all kinds of cookware. Cast iron? Check. Wok? Check. Aluminium moka pot? Check. And even the sound of gas stove provides such an important cue. I suppose we should take ventilation more seriously, but gas is just better for cooking.
  • crispyporkbites 6y ago
    Induction hobs are better - much more precise, easier to clean, more efficient, and full power is almost as quick as gas.
    • ummonk 6y ago
      You can't use a real wok on an induction cooktop.
      • phonethrowaway 6y ago
        Adcraft IND-WOK208V You need 208v from three phase per or a 240v buck transformer though... I use a 208v Adcraft induction cooktop for beer brewing and it's strong. Boils 6 gallons of liquid easily. Just using a 240 to 208v transformer.
        • ummonk 6y ago
          That requires a flat-bottom wok no?
  • ummonk 6y ago
    In SF I can open my windows year-round, so I just do that when cooking. I honestly doubt the gas fumes are the main issue for most of the cooking - the smoke from sizzling / frying seems way more impactful. I have a suspicion that the statistics in the article are more because people with electric cooktops don't cook as much, and simply use the microwave instead.
• bcheung 6y ago
  Stovetop doesn't make much difference. I notice it with ovens though. I favor using countertop electric ovens much more because of this. I'm much more concerned with central heating. I wish more homes had electric and radiant floor heating. I have to crack the window in the office and put an electric heater near the window to avoid feeling lethargic from all the oxygen being depleted and replaced with noxious gases.
• ummonk 6y ago
  I'm curious about the correlation though - some forms of cooking, e.g. deep frying, are extremely difficult with an electric stove and create way more particulate matter / fumes than the burning gas itself. Heck even cooking itself is a lot easier with a gas cooktop, so you're likely to cook more instead of using the microwave, resulting in more smoke.
• RocketOne 6y ago
  Very curious how this would apply to cooking with propane. We're out it in the country so trenching in natural gas lines is prohibitive so the stove, furnace and dryer all run on propane which is considerably more refined than natural gas, which is its raw source.
• maz1b 6y ago
  What is the replacement then? Electric stovetops just aren't a good for some types of cooking at all.
  • pg_bot 6y ago
    The future is induction cooktops.
• drobert 6y ago
  This is the first time I hear about the dangers of gas cooking. I have to admit I haven't read the whole article but from experience gas is much more pleasant to use. Excepting the fact that you have a nice glass surface that is easy to clean, cooking with electric is frustrating. > The people most burdened by these impacts are those who struggle the most to pay for cleaner alternatives I don't believe cost is the main issue, rather lack of awarness. I just checked, in Uk you find both gas and electric hobs for the same price tag - stating from 100 gbp. The biggest cost of installing a electic cooktop is actually having dedicated wiring with a 32amp fuse. This is more tricky in old builds, it could require changing the fuse box and running new wires - a lot of mess. In new builds it is more common to have this by default. So it's not exactlly a case of rich/poor but rather old/new.
  • boatsie 6y ago
    Try induction, definitely different than the standard smoothtop ceramic electric. Fast as gas, easy cleanup, efficient.
    • ourlordcaffeine 6y ago
      I'd be interested to try but I'm told that induction will not work well for what I cook which is mostly chinese food in a wok, unless I have a huge amount of money to drop on an induction stove specially made for woks.
• binarycodedhex 6y ago
  This is a non-issue with a properly designed and used kitchen. Sufficiently-powerful vent hood over a gas stove. The. End. Also, we use a BlueAir 680i and 3M Filtrete 2800 filters, so the particulate count indoors approaches 0 mcg/m^3 in PM1, 2.5, and 10.
• musicale 6y ago
  If you have a gas range or oven (which I wish I did since they are basically banned in new construction) definitely turn the hood fan on high before turning on the gas and leave the fan on until after you turn it off. Otherwise your kitchen will fill up with methane, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and other pollutants. (Some when you turn the burner on, some during operation, and some when you turn it off.) "the investigators estimated that, during a typical winter week, 1.7 million Californians could be exposed to CO levels that exceed standards for ambient air, and 12 million could be exposed to excessive NO2 levels, if they do not use venting range hoods during cooking." https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.122-A27 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.122-A27 Also pilot lights are apparently responsible for about 30% of methane emissions from older gas appliances. So ventilate your house or switch to electric ignition.
• RyanShook 6y ago
  What about a gas fireplace?