6 ms·

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law ha

by skohan 6y ago

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law hampers innovation, but at some level if there is not a basic fair playing field set for everyone, there will always be the incentive for some to over-work to get ahead.

theshrike79 6y ago
There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway. Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either country isn't scaling relative to the hours used.
- machinelabo 6y ago
  I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation. I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.
  - skohan 6y ago
    Two questions would be: 1) do they actually work 12 hours a day, or have they found a way to appear to do so? and 2) how long have they done this for? When I was at my first startup, I had periods of 16 hour days, but after a few years of this I would not go back.
    - theshrike79 6y ago
      Exactly. There's a huge difference between being at work 12 hours a day and actually doing something productive with that time. Japan is an excellent example of this, in their office culture you never leave before the boss does and try to be at the office before them. People spend 12+ hours at work and don't produce more than other people who work sensible hours. Coronavirus and remote works might be a savior for that culture.
    - machinelabo 6y ago
      I wondered the same but their work output is evident. I can see the commit history and their responsiveness to issues. Not saying anything about whether this is a good idea or not. Just saying that I know people like this that I used to be skeptical about before.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    Yes, I worked 12 hours a day with stellar output too. Then one night I found out could't sleep. At all. Had to take a few pills just to get some shuteye and woke up with a shitty metal taste in my mouth every morning. I started getting heart palpitations at odd times. Was on SSRI for a few years just to get over the burnout. Acid reflux so bad I could only eat unseasoned chicken and white rice for 6 months. Since that episode I've learned moderation and have had a hard 8h/day policy with rare exceptions. No issues since, and my output hasn't really changed.
- bvcvbuiy 6y ago
  When I see someone working long hours I always think that either this person must be very disorganised or should move to a less exploitative company. I don't see it as honorific at all (I live in the UK).
mewpmewp2 6y ago
I'm afraid this type of law will decrease salaries in Europe compared to US. For instance I work at an international company and I already get paid 2-3x less than same level engineers in US. I feel like this would increase the gap even more. And I'd prefer to have the option to over-achieve if this is what I choose to do with my life.
- skohan 6y ago
  Have you considered moving to the US? But honestly the pay gap is not due to labour laws, at least not directly. It's because there's a war between the big tech firms to acquire talent which doesn't exist the same way in Europe.
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    I have actually seriously considered it, and this international company is one of the reasons why I joined it because of the opportunity to relocate. US also has much better opportunities for entrepreneurship and other things in my opinion. Simply due to scale of English speaking crowd and of course people there are more likely to buy things. But it would require coming out of my comfort zone so much. I have a girlfriend here, family, friends and much more. I have calculated that I could "FIRE" in US so much faster compared to where I live. Especially if I did some years of work in USA and then "FIRE"d at some low cost of living country. But I think I'm not going to do it for now. Luckily the company pays well in my country too, just not as well. But I do have a lot of regrets that I'm not using my potential to the fullest. Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?
    - skohan 6y ago
      > Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US? Historical/incidental reasons I suppose. I think a lot of it has to do with a lot of the big tech giants, and a lot of VC being centered there (especially around SV specifically) so there is a lot of defensive hiring. When facebook pays a developer $250k per year, it's not only because of the value they're providing facebook, but it's because of the value they could provide a startup which could compete with facebook. By driving up the price of talent, they price startups out of the market. Startups in Europe have much less access to VC funding, so they are less of a threat.

by skohan 6y ago

theshrike79 6y ago

There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway. Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either country isn't scaling relative to the hours used.

machinelabo 6y ago
I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation. I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.
- skohan 6y ago
  Two questions would be: 1) do they actually work 12 hours a day, or have they found a way to appear to do so? and 2) how long have they done this for? When I was at my first startup, I had periods of 16 hour days, but after a few years of this I would not go back.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    Exactly. There's a huge difference between being at work 12 hours a day and actually doing something productive with that time. Japan is an excellent example of this, in their office culture you never leave before the boss does and try to be at the office before them. People spend 12+ hours at work and don't produce more than other people who work sensible hours. Coronavirus and remote works might be a savior for that culture.
  - machinelabo 6y ago
    I wondered the same but their work output is evident. I can see the commit history and their responsiveness to issues. Not saying anything about whether this is a good idea or not. Just saying that I know people like this that I used to be skeptical about before.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  Yes, I worked 12 hours a day with stellar output too. Then one night I found out could't sleep. At all. Had to take a few pills just to get some shuteye and woke up with a shitty metal taste in my mouth every morning. I started getting heart palpitations at odd times. Was on SSRI for a few years just to get over the burnout. Acid reflux so bad I could only eat unseasoned chicken and white rice for 6 months. Since that episode I've learned moderation and have had a hard 8h/day policy with rare exceptions. No issues since, and my output hasn't really changed.
bvcvbuiy 6y ago
When I see someone working long hours I always think that either this person must be very disorganised or should move to a less exploitative company. I don't see it as honorific at all (I live in the UK).

mewpmewp2 6y ago

I'm afraid this type of law will decrease salaries in Europe compared to US. For instance I work at an international company and I already get paid 2-3x less than same level engineers in US. I feel like this would increase the gap even more. And I'd prefer to have the option to over-achieve if this is what I choose to do with my life.

skohan 6y ago
Have you considered moving to the US? But honestly the pay gap is not due to labour laws, at least not directly. It's because there's a war between the big tech firms to acquire talent which doesn't exist the same way in Europe.
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  I have actually seriously considered it, and this international company is one of the reasons why I joined it because of the opportunity to relocate. US also has much better opportunities for entrepreneurship and other things in my opinion. Simply due to scale of English speaking crowd and of course people there are more likely to buy things. But it would require coming out of my comfort zone so much. I have a girlfriend here, family, friends and much more. I have calculated that I could "FIRE" in US so much faster compared to where I live. Especially if I did some years of work in USA and then "FIRE"d at some low cost of living country. But I think I'm not going to do it for now. Luckily the company pays well in my country too, just not as well. But I do have a lot of regrets that I'm not using my potential to the fullest. Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?
  - skohan 6y ago
    > Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US? Historical/incidental reasons I suppose. I think a lot of it has to do with a lot of the big tech giants, and a lot of VC being centered there (especially around SV specifically) so there is a lot of defensive hiring. When facebook pays a developer $250k per year, it's not only because of the value they're providing facebook, but it's because of the value they could provide a startup which could compete with facebook. By driving up the price of talent, they price startups out of the market. Startups in Europe have much less access to VC funding, so they are less of a threat.