10 ms·

It’s truly sad to see the amount of people smugly not covering their noses or wearing such a loose mask it’s obviously not doing anything, even here in the Bay

It’s truly sad to see the amount of people smugly not covering their noses or wearing such a loose mask it’s obviously not doing anything, even here in the Bay Area. If we can’t learn to work together, we are doomed to repeat 2020 with the next pandemic.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
Yeah, it's a bit vexing that humanity doesn't learn long-term lessons very well. I'm curious we'll ever solve that problem.
- ls65536 6y ago
  I think in some sense it's just basic human nature. Over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, humans seem to have been generally tuned to avoid specific, concrete, short-term threats to their own life/health individually, or perhaps extending very slightly just to their own family/group/tribe, but anything that's a threat more generally, more abstractly or longer-term tends to fall off the radar quickly, even if there's a high probability that those things might turn into an existential threat to the individual at some point in the future. I'm also curious how (or if) we're going to learn to collectively solve some of these long-term problems before many of them really start to turn into those specific, concrete, short-term threats to us as individuals, at which point many of the "easier" solutions may no longer be effective anymore.
artvark11 6y ago
If our leaders actually followed their own rules and stopped flipflopping on what works, people would be more likely to listen to them.
- akudha 6y ago
  Wearing a mask during a pandemic is just common sense, it is not that complicated to understand. Why do we need leaders to tell us this basic stuff? people should take a bit more responsibility for their own safety. We aren’t all children to be told every single common thing to follow. Especially after quarter million deaths!!!
  - taylodl 6y ago
    There's an old saying that comes to mind "in theory both theory and practice are the same, in practice they are not." The fact of the matter is anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers both exist and both endanger the health of those around them. This issue pits individual rights against community needs and as such it often goes awry. There are those who will make small personal sacrifices for the communal good and there are those who won't. The problem is communities are comprised of both kinds of people. That's why this notion you've expressed doesn't work as well in practice as it seems it should in theory.
- tannedNerd 6y ago
  Very true. Also having public officials flaunting the rules, isn’t helping either. It’s just gives more power to the anti-masking crowd to point and say well they don’t take is seriously either.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  I've said this all along - the problem is the lack of credible, consistent leadership. From flat out denying, to "we have to quarantine, no Thanksgiving!" from mayors who are then caught at fancy dinners and restaurants! Hard to sell the "we're in this together" narrative when you think the rules don't apply to you if you're rich...it's sad.
  - throwaway5752 6y ago
    "the problem is the lack of credible, consistent leadership." The problem is a highly transmissible, deadly virus, and people reacting to it relative to how others act, regardless of wealth or political affiliation.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      I'm not sure what your comment is really adding/arguing for, could you clarify further?
      - throwaway5752 6y ago
        My point is that it is a societal sickness that we calibrate our reaction to a non-sentient virus based on what some person is doing. A sibling comment talks about the mayor of Austin being in Cabo. The choices that the president, the mayor of Austin, or a councilperson in San Fransisco has no bearing on the mortality and morbidity rates of this disease, how transmissible it is, or how many hospital beds are available to treat the very ill. It's unproductive and distracting to focus on a few people, even if they are leaders, making poor personal decisions in a crisis. It is not about them, it's about sars-covid-19 and the thousands of people dying from it every day, and the hundreds of thousands that will die if we don't get our collective act together.
        ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        If public leaders don't take it seriously enough to follow the protocols they've advised/recommended, how can anyone take it seriously? This leads to more deaths. I'm not focusing on them to vilify them - I'm calling it out as a contributing factor, which it is. And I think it's very productive. The virus is clearly the problem but it isn't solvable until a vaccine comes which takes time - in the meantime you have to enter the realm of sociology. Messaging matters.
- jgalt212 6y ago
  Yes, Gavin Newsom is a menace to public health. https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-birthday-party-indoors-outdoors-COVID-15736490.php https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-birthda...
  - scruple 6y ago
    Let's also not forget London Breed, the Mayor of SF [0]. [0]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/S-F-Mayor-London-Breed-had-her-own-French-15767506.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/S-...
    - jgalt212 6y ago
      I'll go you one better. Neil Ferguson, the Imperial College professor, whose "models" were the basis of the draconian lockdowns were pretty sure they did not apply to him [0]. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289921/Scientist-advice-led-lockdown-QUITS-breaking-restrictions-meet-married-lover.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289921/Scientist-a...
andomar 6y ago
All research I can find shows that masks are largely ineffective, i.e. 100,000 people have to wear a mask to prevent 1 infection. Some research suggests masks make things worse by creating a moist cloud in front of your mouth. For example https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 Where can I find research that confirms masks work?
- zopppo 6y ago
  Did you see this part in the link you shared? "The authors of this article, published in 2015, have written a response to their work in light of the COVID-19 pandemic. We urge our readers to consider the response when reading the article. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.responses#covid-19-shortages-of-masks-and-the-use-of-cloth-masks-as-a-last-resort https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.responses#covid-..."
  - andomar 6y ago
    New to me, but did you read their response? It says "The study found that cloth mask wearers had higher rates of infection than even the standard practice control group of health workers" but they say that health care workers should follow guidance.
    - EliRivers 6y ago
      standard practice control group of health workers Would not standard practice be to wear proper masks? Yes, here we go: "some subjects in the control arm wore surgical masks." And indeed, someone comments "The control arm had less than 1% of no mask use".
    - tgb 6y ago
      The standard practice group includes significant mask wear, so the comparison cannot conclude that cloth is worse than nothing.
- jawarner 6y ago
  I don't think this article is saying what you think it says. It's cautioning against cloth masks, like bandanas. It actually affirms that medical masks, those typically used, do work.
mrfusion 6y ago
Masks will solve everything! It’s nice we have a scapegoat to blame this on.
- artvark11 6y ago
  People like to feel like they are doing the right thing. The truth doesn't matter in the era of fake news.
- dakna 6y ago
  Wearing a mask is the only halfway feasible change that has an effect on virus spread that enough people are willing to do in the US. The virus is largely under control in other countries, but they were able to enforce much more draconian measures.
  - jgalt212 6y ago
    The mask wearing cultures have fared considerably better than others. That being, said has the working group made any update to their predictions / statements. https://www.kalzumeus.com/covid19-japan-white-paper/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/covid19-japan-white-paper/
blackrock 6y ago
It’s the “Freedom Virus” now!
aantix 6y ago
The U.S. is devoutly individualistic and diverse and always with a defiant streak. Genuinely asking - even with the message "we're all in this together", does it surprise you that others don't see it this way?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
prof-dr-ir 6y ago
Yes, people should wear masks. But, as a European, I must say that the strong focus on masks on the other side of the Atlantic feels a little dangerous; over here the regions with a mask mandate have not fared significantly better than those without. So here is the more complete CDC advice: "Wear a mask, stay at least 6 feet apart, avoid crowds, and wash your hands often."
- iaHN 6y ago
  It's virtue signaling. You do not really need a mask if you are out for a walk and are maintaining social distancing. It has been proven time and time again that the main culprit is people crowding indoors without masks. If you are downvoting, please provide evidence that wearing a mask outside while maintaining social distancing has any substantial effect.
  - nemothekid 6y ago
    Call it whatever you want, but if I see someone who can't be bothered to wear a mask, I'm not going to just "take their word" that they have been maintaining social distancing. If they aren't doing the bare minimum, that I can see with my own eyes, I have no reason to believe they are also social distancing.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Then it is literally "virtue signaling" but in this context it's entirely appropriate to require people to virtue signal. It's also an interesting illustration of why things like virtue signaling are a sociological phenomenon to begin with. They're hard-wired into us, for good reasons.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I mean, yeah, wearing a mask whenever you're outside sends a signal that you're virtuously helping to control the pandemic. That seems like a pretty good thing to me! I'd argue it's actually pretty critical; strong signals that everyone else is with you make it a lot easier to observe painful but necessary restrictions.
8ytecoder 6y ago
Even CDC says masks are required when you’re within 6 ft. Studies show the spread is limited outdoors. But we have a blanket rule to wear masks outside all the time. The first priority is and continue to be social distancing. Avoid indoor gatherings at all. Then comes masks.
boatsie 6y ago
What if you have had COVID and recovered, now test negative with antibodies. Should you still have to wear a mask? If we are following the science, you should be fine to not wear a mask due to immunity, right? Should these people also be allowed to live a normal life, gathering with others indoors, etc? I’ve never heard people giving the previously infected a pass to return to normal. I think everyone thinks it’s only fair to make them continue to suffer too, despite having immunity and ignoring the actual reason for social distancing and mask wearing.
- JediWing 6y ago
  Masks are primarily to protect others, so the concern is not the mask-wearer catching it, but rather the mask-wearer spreading it. There are two concerns related to post-immunity spread: First, the accuracy of tests, and second, the ability to spread despite immunity. I believe that some studies have shown you may still be able to transmit the disease if exposed, even though you yourself are immune. I don't have sources handy, but that is a starting point for your own research.
  - boatsie 6y ago
    The first concern regarding test inaccuracy, sure, that’s the same as saying false negatives should also still quartantine because, hey, the test could be wrong. But we don’t require that. As to your second point, would you also be saying we should still mask and social distance after vaccination, because just in case?
    - JediWing 6y ago
      Not an epidemiologist, but from my laymen's understanding: No, because vaccines will be available to the whole/most vulnerable population, so if you spread you have a fairly high degree of confidence others are immune with zero harm having been done to them.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  No. How would you prove it? As soon as there existed some document allowing one to "get back to normal" in some way, I guarantee you there will be a black market for those documents, to the point where they become useless. Oh, wait, it's already happening [1]. 1: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/11/11/covid-19-tests-people-arrested-selling-fake-results-travelers/6246528002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/11/11/covid-...
stolenmerch 6y ago
I agree on mask usage, but it's clear from all available data that areas with aggressive mask mandates and widespread public compliance are also suffering horrible spikes. We knew there was a big November spike coming months ago. Rather than pinning it ALL on mask misuse and blaming a hypothetical Other, we should seek to understand every factor contributing to virus spread. Unfortunately, the more politicized it gets, the more difficult it becomes to have honest and truth-based conversations.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago

Yeah, it's a bit vexing that humanity doesn't learn long-term lessons very well. I'm curious we'll ever solve that problem.

ls65536 6y ago
I think in some sense it's just basic human nature. Over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, humans seem to have been generally tuned to avoid specific, concrete, short-term threats to their own life/health individually, or perhaps extending very slightly just to their own family/group/tribe, but anything that's a threat more generally, more abstractly or longer-term tends to fall off the radar quickly, even if there's a high probability that those things might turn into an existential threat to the individual at some point in the future. I'm also curious how (or if) we're going to learn to collectively solve some of these long-term problems before many of them really start to turn into those specific, concrete, short-term threats to us as individuals, at which point many of the "easier" solutions may no longer be effective anymore.

artvark11 6y ago

If our leaders actually followed their own rules and stopped flipflopping on what works, people would be more likely to listen to them.

akudha 6y ago
Wearing a mask during a pandemic is just common sense, it is not that complicated to understand. Why do we need leaders to tell us this basic stuff? people should take a bit more responsibility for their own safety. We aren’t all children to be told every single common thing to follow. Especially after quarter million deaths!!!
- taylodl 6y ago
  There's an old saying that comes to mind "in theory both theory and practice are the same, in practice they are not." The fact of the matter is anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers both exist and both endanger the health of those around them. This issue pits individual rights against community needs and as such it often goes awry. There are those who will make small personal sacrifices for the communal good and there are those who won't. The problem is communities are comprised of both kinds of people. That's why this notion you've expressed doesn't work as well in practice as it seems it should in theory.
tannedNerd 6y ago
Very true. Also having public officials flaunting the rules, isn’t helping either. It’s just gives more power to the anti-masking crowd to point and say well they don’t take is seriously either.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
I've said this all along - the problem is the lack of credible, consistent leadership. From flat out denying, to "we have to quarantine, no Thanksgiving!" from mayors who are then caught at fancy dinners and restaurants! Hard to sell the "we're in this together" narrative when you think the rules don't apply to you if you're rich...it's sad.
- throwaway5752 6y ago
  "the problem is the lack of credible, consistent leadership." The problem is a highly transmissible, deadly virus, and people reacting to it relative to how others act, regardless of wealth or political affiliation.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    I'm not sure what your comment is really adding/arguing for, could you clarify further?
    - throwaway5752 6y ago
      My point is that it is a societal sickness that we calibrate our reaction to a non-sentient virus based on what some person is doing. A sibling comment talks about the mayor of Austin being in Cabo. The choices that the president, the mayor of Austin, or a councilperson in San Fransisco has no bearing on the mortality and morbidity rates of this disease, how transmissible it is, or how many hospital beds are available to treat the very ill. It's unproductive and distracting to focus on a few people, even if they are leaders, making poor personal decisions in a crisis. It is not about them, it's about sars-covid-19 and the thousands of people dying from it every day, and the hundreds of thousands that will die if we don't get our collective act together.
      - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        If public leaders don't take it seriously enough to follow the protocols they've advised/recommended, how can anyone take it seriously? This leads to more deaths. I'm not focusing on them to vilify them - I'm calling it out as a contributing factor, which it is. And I think it's very productive. The virus is clearly the problem but it isn't solvable until a vaccine comes which takes time - in the meantime you have to enter the realm of sociology. Messaging matters.
jgalt212 6y ago
Yes, Gavin Newsom is a menace to public health. https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-birthday-party-indoors-outdoors-COVID-15736490.php https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-birthda...
- scruple 6y ago
  Let's also not forget London Breed, the Mayor of SF [0]. [0]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/S-F-Mayor-London-Breed-had-her-own-French-15767506.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/S-...
  - jgalt212 6y ago
    I'll go you one better. Neil Ferguson, the Imperial College professor, whose "models" were the basis of the draconian lockdowns were pretty sure they did not apply to him [0]. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289921/Scientist-advice-led-lockdown-QUITS-breaking-restrictions-meet-married-lover.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289921/Scientist-a...

andomar 6y ago

All research I can find shows that masks are largely ineffective, i.e. 100,000 people have to wear a mask to prevent 1 infection. Some research suggests masks make things worse by creating a moist cloud in front of your mouth. For example https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 Where can I find research that confirms masks work?

zopppo 6y ago
Did you see this part in the link you shared? "The authors of this article, published in 2015, have written a response to their work in light of the COVID-19 pandemic. We urge our readers to consider the response when reading the article. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.responses#covid-19-shortages-of-masks-and-the-use-of-cloth-masks-as-a-last-resort https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.responses#covid-..."
- andomar 6y ago
  New to me, but did you read their response? It says "The study found that cloth mask wearers had higher rates of infection than even the standard practice control group of health workers" but they say that health care workers should follow guidance.
  - EliRivers 6y ago
    standard practice control group of health workers Would not standard practice be to wear proper masks? Yes, here we go: "some subjects in the control arm wore surgical masks." And indeed, someone comments "The control arm had less than 1% of no mask use".
  - tgb 6y ago
    The standard practice group includes significant mask wear, so the comparison cannot conclude that cloth is worse than nothing.
jawarner 6y ago
I don't think this article is saying what you think it says. It's cautioning against cloth masks, like bandanas. It actually affirms that medical masks, those typically used, do work.

mrfusion 6y ago

Masks will solve everything! It’s nice we have a scapegoat to blame this on.

artvark11 6y ago
People like to feel like they are doing the right thing. The truth doesn't matter in the era of fake news.
dakna 6y ago
Wearing a mask is the only halfway feasible change that has an effect on virus spread that enough people are willing to do in the US. The virus is largely under control in other countries, but they were able to enforce much more draconian measures.
- jgalt212 6y ago
  The mask wearing cultures have fared considerably better than others. That being, said has the working group made any update to their predictions / statements. https://www.kalzumeus.com/covid19-japan-white-paper/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/covid19-japan-white-paper/

blackrock 6y ago

It’s the “Freedom Virus” now!

aantix 6y ago

The U.S. is devoutly individualistic and diverse and always with a defiant streak. Genuinely asking - even with the message "we're all in this together", does it surprise you that others don't see it this way?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

prof-dr-ir 6y ago

Yes, people should wear masks. But, as a European, I must say that the strong focus on masks on the other side of the Atlantic feels a little dangerous; over here the regions with a mask mandate have not fared significantly better than those without. So here is the more complete CDC advice: "Wear a mask, stay at least 6 feet apart, avoid crowds, and wash your hands often."

iaHN 6y ago
It's virtue signaling. You do not really need a mask if you are out for a walk and are maintaining social distancing. It has been proven time and time again that the main culprit is people crowding indoors without masks. If you are downvoting, please provide evidence that wearing a mask outside while maintaining social distancing has any substantial effect.
- nemothekid 6y ago
  Call it whatever you want, but if I see someone who can't be bothered to wear a mask, I'm not going to just "take their word" that they have been maintaining social distancing. If they aren't doing the bare minimum, that I can see with my own eyes, I have no reason to believe they are also social distancing.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Then it is literally "virtue signaling" but in this context it's entirely appropriate to require people to virtue signal. It's also an interesting illustration of why things like virtue signaling are a sociological phenomenon to begin with. They're hard-wired into us, for good reasons.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I mean, yeah, wearing a mask whenever you're outside sends a signal that you're virtuously helping to control the pandemic. That seems like a pretty good thing to me! I'd argue it's actually pretty critical; strong signals that everyone else is with you make it a lot easier to observe painful but necessary restrictions.

8ytecoder 6y ago

Even CDC says masks are required when you’re within 6 ft. Studies show the spread is limited outdoors. But we have a blanket rule to wear masks outside all the time. The first priority is and continue to be social distancing. Avoid indoor gatherings at all. Then comes masks.

boatsie 6y ago

What if you have had COVID and recovered, now test negative with antibodies. Should you still have to wear a mask? If we are following the science, you should be fine to not wear a mask due to immunity, right? Should these people also be allowed to live a normal life, gathering with others indoors, etc? I’ve never heard people giving the previously infected a pass to return to normal. I think everyone thinks it’s only fair to make them continue to suffer too, despite having immunity and ignoring the actual reason for social distancing and mask wearing.

JediWing 6y ago
Masks are primarily to protect others, so the concern is not the mask-wearer catching it, but rather the mask-wearer spreading it. There are two concerns related to post-immunity spread: First, the accuracy of tests, and second, the ability to spread despite immunity. I believe that some studies have shown you may still be able to transmit the disease if exposed, even though you yourself are immune. I don't have sources handy, but that is a starting point for your own research.
- boatsie 6y ago
  The first concern regarding test inaccuracy, sure, that’s the same as saying false negatives should also still quartantine because, hey, the test could be wrong. But we don’t require that. As to your second point, would you also be saying we should still mask and social distance after vaccination, because just in case?
  - JediWing 6y ago
    Not an epidemiologist, but from my laymen's understanding: No, because vaccines will be available to the whole/most vulnerable population, so if you spread you have a fairly high degree of confidence others are immune with zero harm having been done to them.
ryandrake 6y ago
No. How would you prove it? As soon as there existed some document allowing one to "get back to normal" in some way, I guarantee you there will be a black market for those documents, to the point where they become useless. Oh, wait, it's already happening [1]. 1: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/11/11/covid-19-tests-people-arrested-selling-fake-results-travelers/6246528002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/11/11/covid-...

stolenmerch 6y ago

I agree on mask usage, but it's clear from all available data that areas with aggressive mask mandates and widespread public compliance are also suffering horrible spikes. We knew there was a big November spike coming months ago. Rather than pinning it ALL on mask misuse and blaming a hypothetical Other, we should seek to understand every factor contributing to virus spread. Unfortunately, the more politicized it gets, the more difficult it becomes to have honest and truth-based conversations.