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The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fu
by black_puppydog 6y ago
The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did.
And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions?
The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual negotiations are, best I can tell, way in the past.
Open source frameworks and industry standards, while certainly excellent from a standpoint of work de-duplication and stability, have made it much easier (at least for bigger corps) to replace engineers, or to simply hire someone who's cheaper and less likely to make trouble (read: people more vulnerable to exploitation).
There are certainly still exceptions to this, and there will continue to be. For example, the mythical 10x people among you will never have to worry about this, because they're simply that good. Or if you happen to be working on rust for a year before it breaks into the mainstream, then you'll have a head start for a while. But don't expect that to last.
Overall: we will either realize and act on the fact that we are now for the most part a skilled labor like any other, or we will see our precious privileges erode and our incomes and work conditions deteriorate. And like it or not, but for many among us who are not "the gift of god to coding" the rational strategy will be to not fight on our own.
To bring this back to the current case: the NLRB decided that Spiers got illegally spied on. Whatever your take on her actions before that: illegal stays illegal, and as such don't blame her for it "because she had it coming." Blame google, for blatantly pushing against workers knowing and demanding their rights. If you see what they did here, and the context of this whole story, can you really take their argument at face value that she got fired for misappropriating company property or some such? Doesn't it seem much more likely that they simply made an example of her for informing her co-workers of their rights?
- twblalock 6y ago> The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual negotiations are, best I can tell, way in the past. Are you kidding? Salaries have never been higher in tech. Senior engineers make more than $400k (sometimes way more) at Google and other large companies. It is likely that engineers at FAANG companies would make less money if they join a union, because the union would level people out by negotiating a standard salary for workers at similar levels at all companies. I haven't seen anyone refute this.
- hiddencost 6y agoUh, no. Nope. Google has been suppressing wages progressively for years. They made an illegal no poach agreement with their peers that led to one of the largest settlements in history. Just this past cycle they pushed down compensation for top performers. There was an internal slide deck someone found where they laid out plans to reduce pay by slowing down promo to senior levels. A union would mean the ability to negotiate as a group rather than just taking whatever Google decided to offer us.
- drstewart 6y agoUh, no. Nope. http://levels.fyi http://levels.fyi will prove you wrong.
- bichiliad 6y agoThe fact that google is suppressing wages today won't show up on levels.fyi today. It will show up 5 years from now, and by then it'll be a lot harder to unionize.
- drstewart 6y agoHe says it's been happening for years so it should already be showing up. Care to prove it?
- bichiliad 6y agoThe point is that they've had anti-wage practices for years, but that they recently reduced top-level payout. I'm not able to find a year-by-year comparison for pay bands at Google on levels.fyi, so I'm not sure what your point is with that site. I don't work at Google, so proving that Google specifically is cutting wages isn't something I'm able to do. At the same time, I don't think you need to prove that Google's incentivized to maximize profits. They're a publicly traded company; there will always be motivation for them to reduce costs. If you're in search of proof, the anti-poaching lawsuit[0] is not something to take lightly. And either way, I don't see you bringing up any strong arguments against collective action. Just because Google might not be doing something to reduce compensation right this second doesn't mean they don't have the power to do that in the future. [0]:https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...
- Asooka 6y agoThe problem I have with trade unions is that those usually start mandating how work is performed, rather than just acting as protectors of workers' rights. As a silly example, an IT Union could mandate that we all use tabs for indentation. In general the idea of unionising is appealing, but I don't want to end up in such a degenerate situation. I want an organisation that will protect my rights as a human being while on the job, while also giving me some amount of power to steer the corporation that profits from my labour. It would be nice if this could be done as one generic overarching union that all workers are a part of and that guarantees basic rights for everyone, which could perhaps then be further refined by profession if strictly needed. My thought is that a generic union will not have a desire to meddle in the actual work process, but keep their activity on the political level.
- lucian1900 6y agoUnions are democratic organisations, the whole point of them is for workers to gain power together. You’ll only get tabs enforced if the majority of workers agree that’s a useful rule to have.
- wwtrv 6y agoThis just reiterates what the parent comment said. In this case up to 49% of all workers who did not want to use tabs will be forced to.
- black_puppydog 6y agoThat's not gonna be a very successful union then. The unions I know that actually work are near-universal, but you're never technically required to join. However, at certain levels of unionization, peer pressure kicks in because the "freeriders" effectively get protection from the union without pulling their weight.
- sneak 6y ago> peer pressure kicks in because the "freeriders" effectively get protection from the union without pulling their weight. I would much rather the peer pressure be applied to those writing the checks, by their competition.
- leftyted 6y agoThe idea of Google exploiting its programmers is an insult to actual exploited labor. These aren't coal miners. There's no factories. The programmers where I work have too much power. We're exploiting the company. If I don't feel like writing code, I just do github stuff and answer questions. In fact that's what I did yesterday and the day before. No one notices or cares because, among other things, they couldn't replace me because there aren't thousands of hyper-educated new college grads after my job. I think many of the Google employees who are unhappy at Google due to "exploitation" would be happier working at a smaller, less famous company. Of course there's a pay cut and you lose that special feeling when everyone instantly recognizes you employer and assumes you're a genius.
- r0p3 6y agoHaving "lefty" in your name with such a poor understanding of labor exploitation is funny.
- leftyted 6y agoWorking at Google while complaining about "labor exploitation" is like being a rich white kid in a Che shirt
- black_puppydog 6y agoNot comparing google to coal mines. BUT 1. Unionized coal mines had/have much better wages and working conditions :) 2. Of course there are shades everywhere. And just because there are worse exploiters, doesn't mean google should get away with anything that's not "as bad" as those.
- leftyted 6y agoCoal mines should be unionized because the miners have their backs against the wall. If I felt I was being under-compensated, working in poor conditions, and had my back against the wall, I'd want a union too. But describing my job like that is hysterically funny, much less Google programmers. What's really going on here is simple. If you work at Google, your job is too good. There's no struggle. People want a struggle and so they invent one by LARPing as Marxists.
- alecco 6y agoIn theory, I would love an IT union. But in practice it's likely to turn into another extortion racket by a small cabal of sleazy fat men. And they will stay in power appealing to the lowest of the low flattening salaries and destroying meritocracy. With sadness I have to say, no thanks.
- renewiltord 6y agoPeople should be allowed to unionize but I'll oppose it at every front. Because mass power means mass power that can be turned against me. 2016 taught me something. There are a large contingent of anti-immigrants out there. Should you allow the creation of a mob, a day will come when the populists will take control of it. In moments, the mob can break generations of integration. The best defence against it is prevention of its formation. No, should you gain any appreciable fraction of power to unionize, I think there's a lot of my money I would throw into the opposite effort. No populist mobs. Never again. No group should have that power.
- madeofpalk 6y agoThe problem is there already is a single "mob of power", and that’s the employer. If your employer decides it’s anti-immigrant, that’s bad for you. Unions are an attempt to create a "mob" to counter the "mob" of the employer.
- renewiltord 6y agoThis part is true. The employer does have more power than most employees. However, the employer isn't permitted the kind of cross-company monopsony that unions are permitted to form. Employers would like to try this and have done so (Apple+Google famous anti-poach being an example). Anti-poaching agreements are illegal and when they take place they've been slapped down. However, unions have no such restriction. A Google union would affiliate itself with a Facebook union and those with a Kickstarter union and those with a Random Startup union and before you know it you can't go anywhere without being subject to the wisdom common to Google+Facebook. This makes sense to the union: increased power comes with increased size. If my employer decides they're anti-immigrant I will go elsewhere and be paid just as well. They will lose.
- Apocryphon 6y ago> However, the employer isn't permitted the kind of cross-company monopsony that unions are permitted to form. Sure they are. That's just called industry practice. Multiple corporations can decide that certain policies towards workers all favor them, even without a formalized agreement (clandestine or not). They can even all choose to enshrine these policies through lobbying groups and PACs.
- oh_sigh 6y agoCan you tell me concrete ways in which the average googler SWE's life will improve if they join a union?
- AshWolfy 6y agoUnion workers have better pay, better benefits, more job security, etc
- Ar-Curunir 6y agoYou don't get fired like this? https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334341991795142667 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334341991795142667
- oh_sigh 6y agoIt sounds like someone said "Do X or I quit", and the management chose the latter. What exactly is wrong with that?
- brundolf 6y agoRegardless of whether or not IT professionals should be worried about their salaries, labor power isn't just about compensation. Unions could negotiate for better parental leave (which is still atrocious throughout the US, even in relatively cushy jobs). Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects, as opposed to right now where they get to make a statement and then nothing changes. Organization is about changing a power balance; it's not just about money.
- jjcon 6y ago>Organization is about changing a power balance; it's not just about money. Maybe I fundamentally misunderstand unions having only been in one for a short amount of time but I didn't feel any more empowered by having a union. It was a bunch of union fat cats arguing with corporate fat cats and all in all it just made the work more insufferable.
- brundolf 6y agoI've heard widely varying things about different individual unions. But I think this is true of any power structure: whenever power is acquired, it can be abused by the few - be they politicians or CEOs or union leaders - or it can be held onto by the many and used for the general improvement of circumstances. There's always the risk of corruption. But speaking very broadly, the higher the number of different powerful parties competing with each other, the better. In literal terms: I'd tend to think having union fat cats arguing with corporate fat cats is better than having only corporate fat cats, who are free to do whatever they please.
- AshWolfy 6y agoUnion workers have better pay, better benefits, more job security, etc. Many unions are shitty, but even a job with a shitty union is better than a job with no union
- oh_sigh 6y agoSince this article is about a union for Googlers, let's look at google specifically: > Unions could negotiate for better parental leave They get 14 weeks parental leave + some amount for medical leave for people who give birth [0]. > Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects Googlers pushed back on Dragonfly[1] and got it canceled. And they pushed back on Maven[2] and got management to agree to not renew any contracts associated with it. What exactly would change for Googlers who joined a union? [0] https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/tech/google-family-leave-policy/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/tech/google-family-leave-poli... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine)#Termination_of_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine)#Term... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentagon-project-maven.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentago...
- lawnchair_larry 6y agoAs a former union employee, the idea of tech unionizing is completely unnecessary and unthinkably dumb in my opinion. I suspect advocates of this idea have very little real world experience with unions.
- Ericson2314 6y agoAn American tech union, full of Americans who have never been in a union, would probably not be like other American unions for just that reason!
- rcpt 6y agoAlso think how great it'd be if politicians were interested in things that'd help us instead of our landlords.
- goatinaboat 6y agowe will either realize and act on the fact that we are now for the most part a skilled labor like any other, or we will see our precious privileges erode and our incomes and work conditions deteriorate HN is largely blind to this but outside of a few hotspots like SV programming is just another white collar office job, with pay and conditions not really any better than any other white collar office job. And it will go the same way in SV too eventually. The time to act is when the ball is in your court, not when it’s too late.