7 ms·

I have no idea how those contracts are enforceable. Quit your job, move across the country and then on your first day here are nine contracts to sign, no you ca

I have no idea how those contracts are enforceable. Quit your job, move across the country and then on your first day here are nine contracts to sign, no you can't take them home we need them now. If you don't sign you are unemployed and we want that relocation money back. I used to ask potential employers when I got deep into interviews with them. "Is there any way I can see all the contracts I would need to sign on my first day?" and my experience is employers are very taken aback the question. How can you possibly talk remuneration when there also is some hidden contract that is part of it that you can't see until your first day?

realityking 6y ago
I was un are of this system until I hired in the US. It blows my mind. Here (Germany) offer letters are used to outline the general terms of an offer however the next step will then be that you’re sent a contract (some of mine have been > 10 pages) outlining a lot of relevant things such: - role (ideally even with a job description but that is rare) - place of employment (city/country) - IP assignment - length of probation - length of notice period for both sides - expectation of work travel - vacation - compensation And a bunch of other things that I’m forgetting. Similar to the above story, there’s always some resistance from employers to customize terms. It’s operationally much simpler for a company to have unified terms. However at every company I’ve been at I’ve been able to secure changes to the IP assignment clauses. Of course all of this only works because these contracts are enforceable. There’s no such thing as at will employment here.
- fogetti 6y ago
  If you want to know, the same system happens in Japan too. When you get the offer letter it's an outline only. Then you either accept the offer letter as it is, or walk away. Asking for the detailed contract (called 就業規則 in Japanese) will always end up losing your job offer, because you have no legal right to see the contract before you join the company. Some companies are so hostile (and this is the norm in my experience), that even very valid questions along the line of "Do I get severance pay if I am forced to retire?" or "How do stock options work?" will end your job application process right there because you will get labeled as overzealous. Also, Japanese law doesn't require to state in the contract the exact position that you are hired into. So you will often get hired with the job description: "engineering team member". Of course HR will tell you mealy-mouthed or mellifluously that you are a senior/principal engineer and/or a manager, but none of that will hold any legal water in a lawsuit since your contract doesn't say so. If you ask me, Japan and the US, some of the largest economies of the world are constant labor right abusers and the UN and other nations simply turn their head when this ever gets brought up.
  - rablackburn 6y ago
    I still remember the furore it caused when I asked for a copy of the 業務規則. (because the new overtime pay policy was paying ~$3/hr worked after 10pm and I wanted to see the section that covered that calculation) I just wanted to read the actual language around hours worked and overtime because it was never stated what the policy was. Turns out you couldn’t read it without a director sitting next to you, and it was in a binder that you weren’t allowed to touch. My conversation with the CEO: “Why would you need to read that?” “Because my contract says ‘in accordance with the 業務規則’ and I’d like to know what my contract is” “Well you can ask me a question and ill tell you if it’s in there” Glad I got off that sinking ship.
    - fogetti 6y ago
      I feel for you. I also had my fair share of labor rights abuse in Japan. My experience is that only foreigners are 'brave' enough to ever bring this up, which makes the whole situation even more miserable since you cannot expect any help from Japanese colleagues.
      - throwingaway0 6y ago
        Like what?
    - millirem 6y ago
      That's funny. The law in Japan stipulates that a copy of the 業務規則 needs to be in a place easily accessible to employees.
      - fogetti 6y ago
        This discussion doesn't revolve around how things should be but how it is in the real world.
      - justusw 6y ago
        Employees, but not future employees :(
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  It varies by country, even in Europe. In France you also sign beforehand. But in Spain it's quite common to only sign the contract on the first day; before you can request a letter saying that they are contracting you and the salary, but not more.
MaximumYComb 6y ago
It sounds legally like coercian. There are some porn producers who are going to jail for a very long time (their whole life) over this. Recruit girls for a photoshoot, tell them a couple days out that it's a porn shoot but it's for private collections, etc. When the girls arrive they're railroaded into signing documents, in a strange city with no money in their pocket, etc.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  I'm surprised that the parent post was downvoted, because AFAICT it's a valid comparison. Is there something I'm missing?
  - cj 6y ago
    In the context of starting a job at Google, I highly doubt you sign your employment contracts the day you show up for work. Typically employment contracts are signed and settled well before you enter the building as an employee. I would be surprised if the OP’s anecdote regarding the Googler pulled on the 1st day is in line with reality. Edit: apparently I’m wrong, the downvotes were deserved! I run hiring at my company and we send people all contracts at the same time that we send the offer letter. No surprise paperwork on Day 1. I’m surprised to hear other companies wait until the start date to sort out legal
    - gwillen 6y ago
      I was hired right out of school by Google in 2007. I was absolutely presented with various contract documents on day 1 to sign. In fact, I was not even given paper copies of them; I was supposed to click my agreement in an intranet signing tool. (I couldn't say what fraction of my employment paperwork was handled in this way, but things like IP assignment were definitely included.)
      - philsnow 6y ago
        At one of my first jobs, one of the things I had to agree to was having read "the employee handbook".. but it was not a pdf or other document, it was part of an internal wiki or something, with in-links and out-links all over the place. I don't recall if I tried to figure out whether the strongly connected component that comprised the handbook was the same as "all pages on the wiki", but I was a little distressed at the time (this being one of my first jobs) that I was being asked to sign my name on something that I couldn't realistically read.
disgruntledphd2 6y ago
I learned this the hard way, and now insist upon a contract before agreeing to move to a company (i.e. I dont tell my previous job or give a start date until I see a contract). So far, it hasn't been a problem.
- waheoo 6y ago
  Isnt this job switching 101? you don't have a new job until you've signed. Your notice doesn't happen until you have signed.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    "Signed" isn't what you think it is. You can sign the offer letter, and possibly a couple other things, but most companies will also have more documents that you must sign on your first day of employment, and won't give them to you before then.
    - machinelabo 6y ago
      That hasn't been my experience in the US. When I joined, I signed everything along with the offer letter. Full 10-15 pages of contract. Nothing to sign on the first day.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      Interesting. That's not how it works in Australia at all. Here, salary expectations are given in the first screening call. If they can't meet the expectation or you won't be happy with their lower offer things end there. Interviews / code tests happen. Offer comes over phone or email. This includes salary. There is no signature at this stage and nothing is set in stone, its just an offer. If you accept the offer a contract is drawn up. Still nothing is certain. Changes to the contract can happen here. Once both parties sign. That is when you're "signed". This happens well before your start date, usually you would stipulate the start date in the contract, so if you need to give a month's notice to your employer your new contract with a start date from a month is signed before you even hand in your notice. There is a 3 month trial period on all employment where they can walk without much repercussions, but this is more of a concession on your part because employment is very well protected. Any weird IP bullshit or other conditions of employment that need signing would be in the contract you signed on for. They can't bait and switch like what you're discussing. Any NDA's are discussed up front and at least their existence is disclosed in the contract giving you a chance to see them early. Basically you can't put new conditions of employment on people after the fact, and if you did it wouldn't be valid in court anyway, contract law trumps contract content here no matter what. Things don't have to work exactly like this, you might want to leverage the offer for a higher pay at your current job, counter offering is commonplace here but I wouldn't ever accept one. They'll be looking for your replacement as soon as you accept.
youeseh 6y ago
I'm guessing that you've only worked at / interviewed at large firms. They're large and your prospective role there wasn't senior enough for them to afford you special treatment.
- willcipriano 6y ago
  I've only worked at small to mid sized firms. Either way, Knowing what the agreement is before I agree is special treatment? I'm not asking to modify the contract, merely to see it before I give notice and upend my families life.
  - youeseh 6y ago
    Anything outside of what they consider to be their norm is special treatment. There aren't enough lower level people who ask to see employment agreements ahead of time.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Why is it “special treatment” to want to read what you’re about to sign when it directly involves ones means of living?
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Surely a contract can't be valid if one of the parties hasn't had a chance to read it. It's like if you bought a car, signed and paid, and discovered there is an extra agreement to actually use it, and that one says any ideas you have while driving belong to BMW.
marricks 6y ago
Sounds like a great time to consider the differences between positive and negative liberty. Negative liberty: no one can get in my way of doing whatever I want! Google has the right to rootkit my life and I have the right to ignore it and work at a bodega because all tech giants eventually agreed this is a good practice for them Positive liberty: corporations can't infringe on my right to a private life and must protect my liberty to be a free unconstrained being I don't know about you but I'd much prefer a world where everyone is guaranteed certain freedoms than one where big companies can use positive liberty arguments to exploit people in new and novel ways.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  I've heard it phrased the other way around. Positive liberty is about things that are guaranteed (e.g. health care, food, human dignity). Negative liberty is about things that may not be done (e.g. no punishment for speech, no limitations on buying guns, no environmental regulations). We are in agreement about which type is better, so this is solely a quibble about the names.
  - ByteJockey 6y ago
    I think you're thinking positive vs negative rights (which are like what you're describing).
  - marricks 6y ago
    I just flipped them, reading the wiki on the terms I see I had them backwards. My partner always corrects me and I think they have them wrong :P at least we agree on which one is better too
bitL 6y ago
How about: "Hey, this is your first day, now you need to take this final difficult test and if you fail we will fire you"?
wyclif 6y ago
I have always been the type to have a natural aversion to signing anything. Except for my marriage license, I've always done it under duress. But you know what's even worse? When employers or vendors ask you to sign lengthy contracts, and express a range of emotion from concern to outrage when you insist on reading what you are signing up to!

realityking 6y ago

I was un are of this system until I hired in the US. It blows my mind. Here (Germany) offer letters are used to outline the general terms of an offer however the next step will then be that you’re sent a contract (some of mine have been > 10 pages) outlining a lot of relevant things such: - role (ideally even with a job description but that is rare) - place of employment (city/country) - IP assignment - length of probation - length of notice period for both sides - expectation of work travel - vacation - compensation And a bunch of other things that I’m forgetting. Similar to the above story, there’s always some resistance from employers to customize terms. It’s operationally much simpler for a company to have unified terms. However at every company I’ve been at I’ve been able to secure changes to the IP assignment clauses. Of course all of this only works because these contracts are enforceable. There’s no such thing as at will employment here.

fogetti 6y ago
If you want to know, the same system happens in Japan too. When you get the offer letter it's an outline only. Then you either accept the offer letter as it is, or walk away. Asking for the detailed contract (called 就業規則 in Japanese) will always end up losing your job offer, because you have no legal right to see the contract before you join the company. Some companies are so hostile (and this is the norm in my experience), that even very valid questions along the line of "Do I get severance pay if I am forced to retire?" or "How do stock options work?" will end your job application process right there because you will get labeled as overzealous. Also, Japanese law doesn't require to state in the contract the exact position that you are hired into. So you will often get hired with the job description: "engineering team member". Of course HR will tell you mealy-mouthed or mellifluously that you are a senior/principal engineer and/or a manager, but none of that will hold any legal water in a lawsuit since your contract doesn't say so. If you ask me, Japan and the US, some of the largest economies of the world are constant labor right abusers and the UN and other nations simply turn their head when this ever gets brought up.
- rablackburn 6y ago
  I still remember the furore it caused when I asked for a copy of the 業務規則. (because the new overtime pay policy was paying ~$3/hr worked after 10pm and I wanted to see the section that covered that calculation) I just wanted to read the actual language around hours worked and overtime because it was never stated what the policy was. Turns out you couldn’t read it without a director sitting next to you, and it was in a binder that you weren’t allowed to touch. My conversation with the CEO: “Why would you need to read that?” “Because my contract says ‘in accordance with the 業務規則’ and I’d like to know what my contract is” “Well you can ask me a question and ill tell you if it’s in there” Glad I got off that sinking ship.
  - fogetti 6y ago
    I feel for you. I also had my fair share of labor rights abuse in Japan. My experience is that only foreigners are 'brave' enough to ever bring this up, which makes the whole situation even more miserable since you cannot expect any help from Japanese colleagues.
    - throwingaway0 6y ago
      Like what?
  - millirem 6y ago
    That's funny. The law in Japan stipulates that a copy of the 業務規則 needs to be in a place easily accessible to employees.
    - fogetti 6y ago
      This discussion doesn't revolve around how things should be but how it is in the real world.
    - justusw 6y ago
      Employees, but not future employees :(
benhurmarcel 6y ago
It varies by country, even in Europe. In France you also sign beforehand. But in Spain it's quite common to only sign the contract on the first day; before you can request a letter saying that they are contracting you and the salary, but not more.

MaximumYComb 6y ago

It sounds legally like coercian. There are some porn producers who are going to jail for a very long time (their whole life) over this. Recruit girls for a photoshoot, tell them a couple days out that it's a porn shoot but it's for private collections, etc. When the girls arrive they're railroaded into signing documents, in a strange city with no money in their pocket, etc.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
I'm surprised that the parent post was downvoted, because AFAICT it's a valid comparison. Is there something I'm missing?
- cj 6y ago
  In the context of starting a job at Google, I highly doubt you sign your employment contracts the day you show up for work. Typically employment contracts are signed and settled well before you enter the building as an employee. I would be surprised if the OP’s anecdote regarding the Googler pulled on the 1st day is in line with reality. Edit: apparently I’m wrong, the downvotes were deserved! I run hiring at my company and we send people all contracts at the same time that we send the offer letter. No surprise paperwork on Day 1. I’m surprised to hear other companies wait until the start date to sort out legal
  - gwillen 6y ago
    I was hired right out of school by Google in 2007. I was absolutely presented with various contract documents on day 1 to sign. In fact, I was not even given paper copies of them; I was supposed to click my agreement in an intranet signing tool. (I couldn't say what fraction of my employment paperwork was handled in this way, but things like IP assignment were definitely included.)
    - philsnow 6y ago
      At one of my first jobs, one of the things I had to agree to was having read "the employee handbook".. but it was not a pdf or other document, it was part of an internal wiki or something, with in-links and out-links all over the place. I don't recall if I tried to figure out whether the strongly connected component that comprised the handbook was the same as "all pages on the wiki", but I was a little distressed at the time (this being one of my first jobs) that I was being asked to sign my name on something that I couldn't realistically read.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago

I learned this the hard way, and now insist upon a contract before agreeing to move to a company (i.e. I dont tell my previous job or give a start date until I see a contract). So far, it hasn't been a problem.

waheoo 6y ago
Isnt this job switching 101? you don't have a new job until you've signed. Your notice doesn't happen until you have signed.
- kelnos 6y ago
  "Signed" isn't what you think it is. You can sign the offer letter, and possibly a couple other things, but most companies will also have more documents that you must sign on your first day of employment, and won't give them to you before then.
  - machinelabo 6y ago
    That hasn't been my experience in the US. When I joined, I signed everything along with the offer letter. Full 10-15 pages of contract. Nothing to sign on the first day.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    Interesting. That's not how it works in Australia at all. Here, salary expectations are given in the first screening call. If they can't meet the expectation or you won't be happy with their lower offer things end there. Interviews / code tests happen. Offer comes over phone or email. This includes salary. There is no signature at this stage and nothing is set in stone, its just an offer. If you accept the offer a contract is drawn up. Still nothing is certain. Changes to the contract can happen here. Once both parties sign. That is when you're "signed". This happens well before your start date, usually you would stipulate the start date in the contract, so if you need to give a month's notice to your employer your new contract with a start date from a month is signed before you even hand in your notice. There is a 3 month trial period on all employment where they can walk without much repercussions, but this is more of a concession on your part because employment is very well protected. Any weird IP bullshit or other conditions of employment that need signing would be in the contract you signed on for. They can't bait and switch like what you're discussing. Any NDA's are discussed up front and at least their existence is disclosed in the contract giving you a chance to see them early. Basically you can't put new conditions of employment on people after the fact, and if you did it wouldn't be valid in court anyway, contract law trumps contract content here no matter what. Things don't have to work exactly like this, you might want to leverage the offer for a higher pay at your current job, counter offering is commonplace here but I wouldn't ever accept one. They'll be looking for your replacement as soon as you accept.

youeseh 6y ago

I'm guessing that you've only worked at / interviewed at large firms. They're large and your prospective role there wasn't senior enough for them to afford you special treatment.

willcipriano 6y ago
I've only worked at small to mid sized firms. Either way, Knowing what the agreement is before I agree is special treatment? I'm not asking to modify the contract, merely to see it before I give notice and upend my families life.
- youeseh 6y ago
  Anything outside of what they consider to be their norm is special treatment. There aren't enough lower level people who ask to see employment agreements ahead of time.
dvtrn 6y ago
Why is it “special treatment” to want to read what you’re about to sign when it directly involves ones means of living?
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Surely a contract can't be valid if one of the parties hasn't had a chance to read it. It's like if you bought a car, signed and paid, and discovered there is an extra agreement to actually use it, and that one says any ideas you have while driving belong to BMW.

marricks 6y ago

Sounds like a great time to consider the differences between positive and negative liberty. Negative liberty: no one can get in my way of doing whatever I want! Google has the right to rootkit my life and I have the right to ignore it and work at a bodega because all tech giants eventually agreed this is a good practice for them Positive liberty: corporations can't infringe on my right to a private life and must protect my liberty to be a free unconstrained being I don't know about you but I'd much prefer a world where everyone is guaranteed certain freedoms than one where big companies can use positive liberty arguments to exploit people in new and novel ways.

MereInterest 6y ago
I've heard it phrased the other way around. Positive liberty is about things that are guaranteed (e.g. health care, food, human dignity). Negative liberty is about things that may not be done (e.g. no punishment for speech, no limitations on buying guns, no environmental regulations). We are in agreement about which type is better, so this is solely a quibble about the names.
- ByteJockey 6y ago
  I think you're thinking positive vs negative rights (which are like what you're describing).
- marricks 6y ago
  I just flipped them, reading the wiki on the terms I see I had them backwards. My partner always corrects me and I think they have them wrong :P at least we agree on which one is better too

bitL 6y ago

How about: "Hey, this is your first day, now you need to take this final difficult test and if you fail we will fire you"?

wyclif 6y ago

I have always been the type to have a natural aversion to signing anything. Except for my marriage license, I've always done it under duress. But you know what's even worse? When employers or vendors ask you to sign lengthy contracts, and express a range of emotion from concern to outrage when you insist on reading what you are signing up to!