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I know he got a lot of flack for the Net Neutrality rules, but not everything out of this FCC regime has been bad. Just earlier this month the FCC added additio

I know he got a lot of flack for the Net Neutrality rules, but not everything out of this FCC regime has been bad. Just earlier this month the FCC added additional spectrum to the 5 Ghz unlicensed block used by Wifi[1]. I'm not sure I'll ever complain about additional spectrum for WiFi. [1] - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/fcc-adds-45mhz-to-wi-fi-promising-supersize-networks-on-5ghz-band/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/fcc-adds-45mhz-t...

tw04 6y ago
Except Pai did that because of US cellular companies lobbying him... he's giving that spectrum to 5Ghz wifi so that automakers are FORCED to use cellular providers. https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1109637413744/2020.11.06%20DOT%20Letter%20to%20FCC%20Chairman%20re%20Comments%20on%20Safety%20Band%20Decision%20(Signed).pdf https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1109637413744/2020.11.06%20DOT%... https://ih.advfn.com/stock-market/stock-news/83766758/welcoming-c-v2x-in-the-united-states-after-fccs-ru https://ih.advfn.com/stock-market/stock-news/83766758/welcom... This isn't a good thing... this is Pai once again siding with private profit over public good. The fact the spectrum is going to the public 5Ghz spectrum is just to prevent outrage from the general public.
- kbutler 6y ago
  Wouldn't allowing automakers to use it also benefit private profit?
  - root_axis 6y ago
    Yes, just not the profit of those paying Pai.
- rwbt 6y ago
  Automakers are hoarding the spectrum citing some pie in the sky safety stuff. Not a single car was ever shipped with that tech. I'd rather have my WiFi router running reliably rather than some promise ware hoarding it.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    To put some real numbers to this notion: > But as FCC Chairman Ajit Pai today said, "99.9943 percent of the 274 million registered vehicles on the road in the United States still don't have DSRC on-board units." Only 15,506 vehicles have been equipped with the technology, he said. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/fcc-adds-45mhz-to-wi-fi-promising-supersize-networks-on-5ghz-band/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/fcc-adds-45mhz-t... Considering the American car market sells 17M+ cars annually this is bad progress after two decades.
  - blendo 6y ago
    Cadillac shipped DSRC in the CTS sedan: https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2017/mar/0309-v2v.html https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.... Volkswagen is shipping DSRC in their latest Golf: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-new-golf-cars-will-use-v2x-to-talk-to-each-other-wirelessly/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-new-golf-cars-...
  - tw04 6y ago
    "Automakers" aren't hoarding anything. If you read the cited links, the DOT is the one asking to retain the spectrum. As for it not being used yet: that's because the technology wasn't there yet... The first trial was deployed in 2017. You're the guy declaring electric vehicles a failure in 1990 because battery technology wasn't ready yet. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5888501 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5888501 https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/dedicated-short-range-communications-dsrc-service https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-divis...
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Then they should request the spectrum after the tech is available, not over a decade before.
    - 1MachineElf 6y ago
      I was an infosec contractor at DOT'S NHTSA while the vehicle-to-vehicle (V2V) workgroup was in it's begginings. I recall infosec leadership I respected being against it while short-term political appointees and key industry players like VW pushed it. Maybe we are better off without it?
- artvark11 6y ago
  The first thing I plan to do after buying a new car is to rip out the cellular and gps antennas.
  - LASR 6y ago
    What would this do?
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    If the GPS antenna is separate then you're probably fine leaving it, unless you are worried about IF leakage.
  - Sunspark 6y ago
    If you rip out the antennas, will all the transmit power emit from the signal traces on the PCB instead?
  - InitialLastName 6y ago
    If your GPS antenna is doing any transmitting, you likely have other problems.
- driverdan 6y ago
  > automakers are FORCED to use cellular providers Choose to use cellular providers. They don't need to put any kind of remote access backdoor or spyware at all.
- mlindner 6y ago
  Once the technology is actually ready, car manufacturers can request spectrum again. Spectrum should be used, not held in lack of use. There's rules around spectrum that if you don't use it, you lose it.
  - InitialLastName 6y ago
    OTOH, it's difficult (impossible?) to un-allocate spectrum that has been put into use at any point. Perhaps there are foreseeable uses in the medium term that we should be reserving spectrum for, rather than auctioning our future resources off to today's rent-seekers.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  The reason automakers include cellular radios already is to do app-to-vehicle and vehicle-to-internet communications. Things like Internet radio or unlocking your car from your phone need the Internet, and cellular providers offer that. Presumably at a cut-rate deal compared to general-purpose cell plans. The spectrum in question was being held for short-range vehicle-to-vehicle communications (Wi-Fi range stuff, hence why this spectrum will be... used for Wi-Fi). So they're probably going to have the cellular connection anyways. And technically, it's not impossible for them to still use Wi-Fi bands... they're just likely going to have to contend with some more interference. I think more than likely, vehicle-to-vehicle communication should only be an additional indicator, not something to be fully relied upon, since other cars can "lie" to yours.
- souprock 6y ago
  I don't want my car to use that spectrum or any other. I don't feel that the manufacturer (or Google or Facebook) needs to track my vehicle usage, and I don't wish for my car to pay any heed to signals emitted by untrusted unknown transmitters.
bobthepanda 6y ago
A broken clock is right twice a day. It's rare that someone is cartoonish levels of incompetent.
- shoulderfake 6y ago
  Its not incompetence, its corruption
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Ajit Pai is extremely competent, except he enacts policies that you do not agree with. Listening to an interview with him, I could feel myself thinking that he had a ton of valid points about the FCC and industry as a whole. And before I get called a shill, I disagree with many of his policies and am glad hes leaving the post.
  - TheOperator 6y ago
    Yeah I've been exposed to Pai and the man certainly is more erudite than myself. My view on network neutrality at this point is the companies pushing for those laws were always more of a monopolizing threat than the ISPs ever were. Netflix and Google loved network neutrality because it saved them lots of cash and they ended up getting an "internet fast lane" Comcast couldn't dream of by installing a massive CDN across the globe. It seemed like policy that was supported mostly because it was pro-consumer and because honestly the ISPs are getting lots of taxpayer money.
    - enragedcacti 6y ago
      > It seemed like policy that was supported mostly because it was pro-consumer and because honestly the ISPs are getting lots of taxpayer money. Am I getting wooshed or are these both great reasons to support this policy and thus oppose Ajit Pai?
      - x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
        It's almost as if there are good arguments on _both_ sides of the debate!
Triv888 6y ago
Depends what they took the spectrum from I guess
Reedx 6y ago
What fears about Net Neutrality have come to pass? I was really concerned about it at the time, I admit, but now seems overblown in retrospect. Internet speeds, for example, have only improved since then. And haven't seen the concerns about web site bundling or priority access manifest.
- seibelj 6y ago
  Also, speeds in Europe have been on average worse than the USA, despite their strong NN laws https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-country.php https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-cou... They have even had to ration internet during COVID https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/03/19/internet-use-could-rationed-prioritise-health-services-online/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/03/19/internet-u... Although I despise our internet oligopoly in the US, in the EU it seems to be even worse despite their heavy handed regulation.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    The EU is a whole different level of incompetent, but attributing that to regulation alone would be misleading. For one, Europe is much denser than the US. Naturally net loads would be high if everyone were forced into a lock down uniformly, with armed patrols and the like.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Was the internet rationing in the EU even necessary, or was it just a knee-jerk solution to a problem that didn't actually exist? At the time it seemed like the latter. Presumably Amazon, Netflix and friends are back to full bitrates now, has it caused any problems? Edit: although if the EU requests to slow down data were totally unnecessarily it certainly doesn't disprove your point about excessive regulation
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> And haven't seen the concerns about web site bundling or priority access manifest. How would you know? Absolute blocks are one thing, artificial performance differences another. If your ISP was slightly reducing the performance of one streaming service to advantage another, how many people would actually test for this? If a phone maker (apple/google/whatever) was feeding an ISP money to ensure their phones would be that little bit better on the network, wouldn't most people chalk that up to differences in hardware? True evil survives by being difficult to detect with certainty.
KorematsuFred 6y ago
The new neutrality boogeyman folks had created during Ajit's appointment has turned out be false. Not only internet has grown stronger, but average speeds in USA are up by 91%. All the horror stories that people created have not come to pass. Deregulation has been better for internet in general. This is not to say Ajit has been doing a stellar job. I am pretty pissed at him for banning phone calls on airplanes. https://reason.com/2019/02/20/more-americans-have-high-speed-internet/ https://reason.com/2019/02/20/more-americans-have-high-speed...
m0llusk 6y ago
That spectrum had been reserved for vehicle communication which is arguably both important and under served.

tw04 6y ago

Except Pai did that because of US cellular companies lobbying him... he's giving that spectrum to 5Ghz wifi so that automakers are FORCED to use cellular providers. https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1109637413744/2020.11.06%20DOT%20Letter%20to%20FCC%20Chairman%20re%20Comments%20on%20Safety%20Band%20Decision%20(Signed).pdf https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1109637413744/2020.11.06%20DOT%... https://ih.advfn.com/stock-market/stock-news/83766758/welcoming-c-v2x-in-the-united-states-after-fccs-ru https://ih.advfn.com/stock-market/stock-news/83766758/welcom... This isn't a good thing... this is Pai once again siding with private profit over public good. The fact the spectrum is going to the public 5Ghz spectrum is just to prevent outrage from the general public.

kbutler 6y ago
Wouldn't allowing automakers to use it also benefit private profit?
- root_axis 6y ago
  Yes, just not the profit of those paying Pai.
rwbt 6y ago
Automakers are hoarding the spectrum citing some pie in the sky safety stuff. Not a single car was ever shipped with that tech. I'd rather have my WiFi router running reliably rather than some promise ware hoarding it.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  To put some real numbers to this notion: > But as FCC Chairman Ajit Pai today said, "99.9943 percent of the 274 million registered vehicles on the road in the United States still don't have DSRC on-board units." Only 15,506 vehicles have been equipped with the technology, he said. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/fcc-adds-45mhz-to-wi-fi-promising-supersize-networks-on-5ghz-band/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/fcc-adds-45mhz-t... Considering the American car market sells 17M+ cars annually this is bad progress after two decades.
- blendo 6y ago
  Cadillac shipped DSRC in the CTS sedan: https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2017/mar/0309-v2v.html https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.... Volkswagen is shipping DSRC in their latest Golf: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-new-golf-cars-will-use-v2x-to-talk-to-each-other-wirelessly/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-new-golf-cars-...
- tw04 6y ago
  "Automakers" aren't hoarding anything. If you read the cited links, the DOT is the one asking to retain the spectrum. As for it not being used yet: that's because the technology wasn't there yet... The first trial was deployed in 2017. You're the guy declaring electric vehicles a failure in 1990 because battery technology wasn't ready yet. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5888501 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5888501 https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/dedicated-short-range-communications-dsrc-service https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-divis...
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Then they should request the spectrum after the tech is available, not over a decade before.
  - 1MachineElf 6y ago
    I was an infosec contractor at DOT'S NHTSA while the vehicle-to-vehicle (V2V) workgroup was in it's begginings. I recall infosec leadership I respected being against it while short-term political appointees and key industry players like VW pushed it. Maybe we are better off without it?
artvark11 6y ago
The first thing I plan to do after buying a new car is to rip out the cellular and gps antennas.
- LASR 6y ago
  What would this do?
- nitrogen 6y ago
  If the GPS antenna is separate then you're probably fine leaving it, unless you are worried about IF leakage.
- Sunspark 6y ago
  If you rip out the antennas, will all the transmit power emit from the signal traces on the PCB instead?
- InitialLastName 6y ago
  If your GPS antenna is doing any transmitting, you likely have other problems.
driverdan 6y ago
> automakers are FORCED to use cellular providers Choose to use cellular providers. They don't need to put any kind of remote access backdoor or spyware at all.
mlindner 6y ago
Once the technology is actually ready, car manufacturers can request spectrum again. Spectrum should be used, not held in lack of use. There's rules around spectrum that if you don't use it, you lose it.
- InitialLastName 6y ago
  OTOH, it's difficult (impossible?) to un-allocate spectrum that has been put into use at any point. Perhaps there are foreseeable uses in the medium term that we should be reserving spectrum for, rather than auctioning our future resources off to today's rent-seekers.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
The reason automakers include cellular radios already is to do app-to-vehicle and vehicle-to-internet communications. Things like Internet radio or unlocking your car from your phone need the Internet, and cellular providers offer that. Presumably at a cut-rate deal compared to general-purpose cell plans. The spectrum in question was being held for short-range vehicle-to-vehicle communications (Wi-Fi range stuff, hence why this spectrum will be... used for Wi-Fi). So they're probably going to have the cellular connection anyways. And technically, it's not impossible for them to still use Wi-Fi bands... they're just likely going to have to contend with some more interference. I think more than likely, vehicle-to-vehicle communication should only be an additional indicator, not something to be fully relied upon, since other cars can "lie" to yours.
souprock 6y ago
I don't want my car to use that spectrum or any other. I don't feel that the manufacturer (or Google or Facebook) needs to track my vehicle usage, and I don't wish for my car to pay any heed to signals emitted by untrusted unknown transmitters.

bobthepanda 6y ago

A broken clock is right twice a day. It's rare that someone is cartoonish levels of incompetent.

shoulderfake 6y ago
Its not incompetence, its corruption
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Ajit Pai is extremely competent, except he enacts policies that you do not agree with. Listening to an interview with him, I could feel myself thinking that he had a ton of valid points about the FCC and industry as a whole. And before I get called a shill, I disagree with many of his policies and am glad hes leaving the post.
- TheOperator 6y ago
  Yeah I've been exposed to Pai and the man certainly is more erudite than myself. My view on network neutrality at this point is the companies pushing for those laws were always more of a monopolizing threat than the ISPs ever were. Netflix and Google loved network neutrality because it saved them lots of cash and they ended up getting an "internet fast lane" Comcast couldn't dream of by installing a massive CDN across the globe. It seemed like policy that was supported mostly because it was pro-consumer and because honestly the ISPs are getting lots of taxpayer money.
  - enragedcacti 6y ago
    > It seemed like policy that was supported mostly because it was pro-consumer and because honestly the ISPs are getting lots of taxpayer money. Am I getting wooshed or are these both great reasons to support this policy and thus oppose Ajit Pai?
    - x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
      It's almost as if there are good arguments on _both_ sides of the debate!

Triv888 6y ago

Depends what they took the spectrum from I guess

Reedx 6y ago

What fears about Net Neutrality have come to pass? I was really concerned about it at the time, I admit, but now seems overblown in retrospect. Internet speeds, for example, have only improved since then. And haven't seen the concerns about web site bundling or priority access manifest.

seibelj 6y ago
Also, speeds in Europe have been on average worse than the USA, despite their strong NN laws https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-country.php https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-cou... They have even had to ration internet during COVID https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/03/19/internet-use-could-rationed-prioritise-health-services-online/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/03/19/internet-u... Although I despise our internet oligopoly in the US, in the EU it seems to be even worse despite their heavy handed regulation.
- fakedang 6y ago
  The EU is a whole different level of incompetent, but attributing that to regulation alone would be misleading. For one, Europe is much denser than the US. Naturally net loads would be high if everyone were forced into a lock down uniformly, with armed patrols and the like.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Was the internet rationing in the EU even necessary, or was it just a knee-jerk solution to a problem that didn't actually exist? At the time it seemed like the latter. Presumably Amazon, Netflix and friends are back to full bitrates now, has it caused any problems? Edit: although if the EU requests to slow down data were totally unnecessarily it certainly doesn't disprove your point about excessive regulation
sandworm101 6y ago
>> And haven't seen the concerns about web site bundling or priority access manifest. How would you know? Absolute blocks are one thing, artificial performance differences another. If your ISP was slightly reducing the performance of one streaming service to advantage another, how many people would actually test for this? If a phone maker (apple/google/whatever) was feeding an ISP money to ensure their phones would be that little bit better on the network, wouldn't most people chalk that up to differences in hardware? True evil survives by being difficult to detect with certainty.

KorematsuFred 6y ago

The new neutrality boogeyman folks had created during Ajit's appointment has turned out be false. Not only internet has grown stronger, but average speeds in USA are up by 91%. All the horror stories that people created have not come to pass. Deregulation has been better for internet in general. This is not to say Ajit has been doing a stellar job. I am pretty pissed at him for banning phone calls on airplanes. https://reason.com/2019/02/20/more-americans-have-high-speed-internet/ https://reason.com/2019/02/20/more-americans-have-high-speed...

m0llusk 6y ago

That spectrum had been reserved for vehicle communication which is arguably both important and under served.