7 ms·

It's really really hard to prove your not racist. If anyone has any clue as how to do so, please share. They could have waited until the story was published I

It's really really hard to prove your not racist. If anyone has any clue as how to do so, please share. They could have waited until the story was published I guess to share this statement, but publishing it preemptively makes sense too I believe (it's an always open entity that is incredibly easy to switch away from). But truly, when you get accused of racism, what can you even do?

gpm 6y ago
I wonder how the nyt feels about them posting it publicly? Is that something that's going to make them reconsider sharing details in future stories? (I think it was probably the right choice either way given how serious the allegations appear to be, so this is just idle curiosity on my part).
- nlh 6y ago
  > Is that something that's going to make them reconsider sharing details in future stories? It's a fair question, but I doubt it. While getting a hot scoop and dropping it with a bang is something that feels good (and sells papers, so to speak), it's not the driving force behind how a professional news org works. The NYT is a professional news org. One of the things a professional news orgs does is fact check, get statements, and give its sources a chance to respond.
  - travisoneill1 6y ago
    One of the other things a professional news org does is not fire its editorial page manager for printing an opposing viewpoint.
  - nullc 6y ago
    The New York times is not a professional news org. They do not, in fact, fact check, get statements, or give their subjects a chance to respond, at least not consistently. When Nathaniel Popper wrote a hit piece substantially targeting me personally he (and NYT's fact checkers-- if they exist/were-involved at all) diligently avoided having any communication with anyone who could possibly contradict his narrative, including, of course, those he targeted. Not even the classic "email to an unmonitored mailbox 20 minutes before going to print to accompany a 'could not be reached for comment'" so often used in the industry and it isn't like he didn't know how to reach me. The subsequent apology I got from a times board member was only a small consolation. My experiences are not dissimilar to others I've talked to that have been the targets of hit pieces in the NYT. In my view the NYT is a garbage venue that is callously indifferent to the truth at best. At least coinbase knew this was coming, often NYT targets don't enjoy even that small piece of human decency.
    - creata 6y ago
      The New York Times is one of the most respected news organizations in the world, so if they're not a "professional news org", then who is? Also, do you elaborate on your struggle with the NYT elsewhere? I'm interested, but you haven't given us much information at all.
      - hda2 6y ago
        > The New York Times is one of the most respected news organizations in the world Not anymore. The web advertising industry strongly effected the quality of their work. Now they're just another slightly larger news organization with a spotty track record.
dmix 6y ago
Being as transparent as possible and investigating complaints as they come up. > three of these people filed complaints during their time at Coinbase. All of those complaints were thoroughly investigated, one through an internal investigation and two by separate third-party investigators Using third parties sounds like a good idea here.
- markdown 6y ago
  You don't pay a third party to find damaging stuff about your company. Do you really think this third party would ever find something that made Coinbase look bad? Arthur Andersen taught us that two decades ago.
  - ergocoder 6y ago
    Like financial audit?
- alasdair_ 6y ago
  It depends on the third party and who is paying them to investigate. If coinbase is the one paying, the third party is unlikely to be unbiased.
Damorian 6y ago
I don't waste my time trying to appease people who are satisfied with nothing. The mob is more concerned with being outraged then the truth. Best to ignore it, which is where Coinbase made its mistake, imo.
- refulgentis 6y ago
  To be fair, you're using a corporate blog post sharing an internal email responding to a story that hasn't been published yet, to jump to a series of unrelated conclusions. Namely, extrapolating that unobserved reactions to a story no one has read are a 'mob', and the 'mob' is 'outraged' instead of being concerned about 'the truth', and it'd be better for Coinbase to ignore it. It's also striking that this reaction could be addressed at itself. Stealing this from other posts above, apologies friends: under those assumptions, the disagreement you have with Coinbase's choice to address it is sufficient to negate your conclusion - if there is no mob, and no story, and the corporation is trying to get in advance of it, it's likely the story is damaging enough that they need to, it's not pleading with a 'mob'.
  - Damorian 6y ago
    I've played this game before. Why should I expect it to be any different from the usual political social media cancel culture nonsense it always is? I'd love for my assumptions to be wrong though.
    - refulgentis 6y ago
      It's worth discussing but I'm not sure how to move in with the entrypoint, it feels like 'i know, its a strawman, but its not because the strawman is always real'
      - Damorian 6y ago
        Have you heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?
peteretep 6y ago
> when you get accused of racism, what can you even do? Make sure nobody has any examples of you being racist
- farrarstan 6y ago
  Ya be sneaky
- ffggvv 6y ago
  that’s racist and excludes people who don’t have specific examples to point to but have nonetheless been wronged as a marginalized person i think your comment is deeply racist and could only be written by a racist
- roenxi 6y ago
  That is unlikely to work. You may have heard of implicit bias [0]? A case can be made that you were born a racist and you have to prove that you have shaken yourself free from your racist beginnings. I personally think it is a silly case, but 'well, just don't be racist' is a silly defense - so maybe they'll work well together. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype
  - peteretep 6y ago
    Anybody can accuse you of anything, it’s true, but accusations of racism without specific allegations of racist behaviours or actions are rarely reported in NYT.
    - roenxi 6y ago
      The NYT? After the Trump presidency? Here is a helpful attack article they wrote about an issue that turned out not to involve any particular racial undertones [0] - although you wouldn't figure that out from the NYT reporting. They aren't known for being careful before calling people racist with light evidence. Another good example of 'nobody has any examples of you being racist' being nowhere near enough to keep a reputation intact too. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-phillips.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-hig...
farrarstan 6y ago
It’s super easy for most people
CyanLite4 6y ago
Saying something to the effect of “we’re not racist, we have ONE black person that works here” isn’t a good idea. Especially if you’re the premier cryptocurrency exchange and still rely heavily on outside funding.
csense 6y ago
That's the beauty of it. Denying the charge or defending yourself simply digs you deeper into the hole. What you're supposed to do is admit you're a racist, fall down on your knees, abjectly beg forgiveness of your accusers, and list all the new things you'll be doing to stop being racist. Then your accusers have the power to forgive you. But you really, truly have to go all the way in submitting to their demands. And they still might not forgive you. After all, you're racist scum, the lowest of the low. It's an incredibly toxic and destructive way of handling the issue of racism. I know I'm not a racist -- I interact with people of all races. I don't let race enter into my interactions. I sleep well at night, because I know I'm not a racist. Defending myself against ridiculous allegations of racism is a game I refuse to play. For the good and simple reason that if you play the game, you can only lose.
- peteretep 6y ago
  > Defending myself against ridiculous allegations What in the heck are you doing that's inviting frequent accusations of racism?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    Making nice little statements like this: > The point is, if you want to face reality rather than live in a comfortable fantasy, you have to confront the possibility that the racists are right about one thing: It's possible that some races really do have less intelligence than others. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24889113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24889113
    - deleteme34444 6y ago
      It is very rude of you to completely neglect the reasonable discussion surrounding that cherry-picked quote and present it in this way that implies they are "racist" -- this is exactly the sort of behavior that needs to stop.
throwlastone 6y ago
Counter whatever evidence is presented with facts. The same way you make any argument. "You can't prove a negative" is mostly an imaginary problem, you don't need to prove anything, you need to convince people that your argument is better.
flowerlad 6y ago
> It's really really hard to prove your not racist. If anyone has any clue as how to do so, please share. If you have been accused of racism that's because somebody has an example of you being racist. If you did not have racist intent you can clarify your intent. Simply claiming you're not a racist won't do because pretty much everyone accused of racism makes that claim (example: central park dog walker, or any other person in the news accused of racism). Edit: I am talking about instances where the facts are not in question. For example, you did not hire Xyz, and you're accused of racism.
- ovao 6y ago
  That’s not accurate to say. A person may be accused of racism due to a misperception (or even fabrication) from another person’s perspective, and in such a case that’s not “an example of being racist”. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything; that’s not sufficient to suggest that the accused must be guilty on some level.
  - xapata 6y ago
    You misread (I think). I believe they meant an example of an event that can be interpreted as racist, even if it wasn't. Thus the proper reaction is to supply an alternative explanation.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- eyeball 6y ago
  > If you have been accused of racism that's because somebody has an example of you being racist. If only that were true.
- rlt 6y ago
  > If you have been accused of racism that's because somebody has an example of you being racist > any other person in the news accused of racism You’re kind of proving the point by claiming it’s always so clear cut.
doublekill 6y ago
What I learned from diversity training is that you need to accept the fact that society is systematically racist, and as a white person you benefit from this. So all whites are profiting from racism already. They have to come to terms with this, acknowledge the role that their ancestors played in furthering or creating racial inequality, and do everything in their privileged power to right this wrong: hire more black people. Promote more black people. Mentor more black people. Pay reparations to black people. Be a vocal supporter to black people. And realize and appreciate that you are different, and will never have to share what black people go through every day. What more can you do?
- muglug 6y ago
  > society is systematically racist, and as a white person you benefit from this. So all whites are profiting from racism already American society, certainly. Some white Europeans are a bit miffed at being lumped in with America’s problems. Europe has race/diversity problems of its own, but not on the same scale as the US’s.
  - doublekill 6y ago
    My first European colleague was a male-to-female person. She had worked at a major company for years, got a bad performance report, and attributed it to her transition. It went to court and the company settled, instead of defending not promoting her (with or without regard of her transition). Very good programmer. She worked there for 1 year more, doing only things that the company laywers agreed to. In America I see similar things. I think it is seductive to be swept up with identity politics, and suddenly that promotion that went to a white person, feels different, feels racist. Or you employ a neurodiverse low-social skill person who makes an edgy unfunny joke, because he is nervous. That's "racist humor on the work floor" when going to a lawyer or journalist. It is a dangerous world out there. Current climate not helping.
    - muglug 6y ago
      I don’t believe neurodiverse people make racist jokes as a matter of course. At least, that hasn’t been my experience. I think journalists are also able to tell the difference between “some dude made a poor-taste joke once” and “dudes were always making poor-taste jokes targeted at one specific minority when the employee was present”. I’ll also say that, at my reasonably woke US company, I’m not aware of any neurodiverse person getting in any trouble for making a bad-taste joke.
Taek 6y ago
If you get accused of racism, what you should do is take the accusation seriously, assume that it is the result of genuine tension within the company, and then figure out places in your process where you were not being proactive enough about looking out for your employees and team chemistry. Happy employees don't accuse their employers of racism. If you are being accused of racism by your employees, surely something went wrong and there are things you can identify to improve, and then commit to improving those things as part of rebuilding your integrity.
- julianmarq 6y ago
  > If you are being accused [...], surely something went wrong This is "guilty until proven innocent", when exactly did this mentality catch on? Well, in any case I hope the trend reverses because it's directly opposite to how the law works.
  - lmeyerov 6y ago
    Some things are bad enough that you don't even want to be in the grey zone. To be not that big and different people (from a likely already-small group) keep bringing it up... . People like to think of themselves as the hero, but if they keep getting misunderstood as the villain... well...
  - Taek 6y ago
    Nobody is getting convicted of a crime here.
    - julianmarq 6y ago
      How is this apropos to my comment? I didn't say anyone was. The only way I can see how this might fit as a reply to my comment would be the implication that it's okay to throw accusations around, and accepting accusations as automatically true, just because the accusation is not of a crime. That's exactly what we shouldn't do. That's my point and I for one am not gonna start doing such anytime soon, and I also try to keep contact with people who do that at a minimum. For that matter, I would love if you elaborated on how an accusation must surely mean that a wrongdoing actually happened instead of replying with uncharitable interpretations of my comments.
an_opabinia 6y ago
I don’t know dude, I think it’s pretty easy to not make generalizations.

gpm 6y ago

I wonder how the nyt feels about them posting it publicly? Is that something that's going to make them reconsider sharing details in future stories? (I think it was probably the right choice either way given how serious the allegations appear to be, so this is just idle curiosity on my part).

nlh 6y ago
> Is that something that's going to make them reconsider sharing details in future stories? It's a fair question, but I doubt it. While getting a hot scoop and dropping it with a bang is something that feels good (and sells papers, so to speak), it's not the driving force behind how a professional news org works. The NYT is a professional news org. One of the things a professional news orgs does is fact check, get statements, and give its sources a chance to respond.
- travisoneill1 6y ago
  One of the other things a professional news org does is not fire its editorial page manager for printing an opposing viewpoint.
- nullc 6y ago
  The New York times is not a professional news org. They do not, in fact, fact check, get statements, or give their subjects a chance to respond, at least not consistently. When Nathaniel Popper wrote a hit piece substantially targeting me personally he (and NYT's fact checkers-- if they exist/were-involved at all) diligently avoided having any communication with anyone who could possibly contradict his narrative, including, of course, those he targeted. Not even the classic "email to an unmonitored mailbox 20 minutes before going to print to accompany a 'could not be reached for comment'" so often used in the industry and it isn't like he didn't know how to reach me. The subsequent apology I got from a times board member was only a small consolation. My experiences are not dissimilar to others I've talked to that have been the targets of hit pieces in the NYT. In my view the NYT is a garbage venue that is callously indifferent to the truth at best. At least coinbase knew this was coming, often NYT targets don't enjoy even that small piece of human decency.
  - creata 6y ago
    The New York Times is one of the most respected news organizations in the world, so if they're not a "professional news org", then who is? Also, do you elaborate on your struggle with the NYT elsewhere? I'm interested, but you haven't given us much information at all.
    - hda2 6y ago
      > The New York Times is one of the most respected news organizations in the world Not anymore. The web advertising industry strongly effected the quality of their work. Now they're just another slightly larger news organization with a spotty track record.

dmix 6y ago

Being as transparent as possible and investigating complaints as they come up. > three of these people filed complaints during their time at Coinbase. All of those complaints were thoroughly investigated, one through an internal investigation and two by separate third-party investigators Using third parties sounds like a good idea here.

markdown 6y ago
You don't pay a third party to find damaging stuff about your company. Do you really think this third party would ever find something that made Coinbase look bad? Arthur Andersen taught us that two decades ago.
- ergocoder 6y ago
  Like financial audit?
alasdair_ 6y ago
It depends on the third party and who is paying them to investigate. If coinbase is the one paying, the third party is unlikely to be unbiased.

Damorian 6y ago

I don't waste my time trying to appease people who are satisfied with nothing. The mob is more concerned with being outraged then the truth. Best to ignore it, which is where Coinbase made its mistake, imo.

refulgentis 6y ago
To be fair, you're using a corporate blog post sharing an internal email responding to a story that hasn't been published yet, to jump to a series of unrelated conclusions. Namely, extrapolating that unobserved reactions to a story no one has read are a 'mob', and the 'mob' is 'outraged' instead of being concerned about 'the truth', and it'd be better for Coinbase to ignore it. It's also striking that this reaction could be addressed at itself. Stealing this from other posts above, apologies friends: under those assumptions, the disagreement you have with Coinbase's choice to address it is sufficient to negate your conclusion - if there is no mob, and no story, and the corporation is trying to get in advance of it, it's likely the story is damaging enough that they need to, it's not pleading with a 'mob'.
- Damorian 6y ago
  I've played this game before. Why should I expect it to be any different from the usual political social media cancel culture nonsense it always is? I'd love for my assumptions to be wrong though.
  - refulgentis 6y ago
    It's worth discussing but I'm not sure how to move in with the entrypoint, it feels like 'i know, its a strawman, but its not because the strawman is always real'
    - Damorian 6y ago
      Have you heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?

peteretep 6y ago

> when you get accused of racism, what can you even do? Make sure nobody has any examples of you being racist

farrarstan 6y ago
Ya be sneaky
ffggvv 6y ago
that’s racist and excludes people who don’t have specific examples to point to but have nonetheless been wronged as a marginalized person i think your comment is deeply racist and could only be written by a racist
roenxi 6y ago
That is unlikely to work. You may have heard of implicit bias [0]? A case can be made that you were born a racist and you have to prove that you have shaken yourself free from your racist beginnings. I personally think it is a silly case, but 'well, just don't be racist' is a silly defense - so maybe they'll work well together. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype
- peteretep 6y ago
  Anybody can accuse you of anything, it’s true, but accusations of racism without specific allegations of racist behaviours or actions are rarely reported in NYT.
  - roenxi 6y ago
    The NYT? After the Trump presidency? Here is a helpful attack article they wrote about an issue that turned out not to involve any particular racial undertones [0] - although you wouldn't figure that out from the NYT reporting. They aren't known for being careful before calling people racist with light evidence. Another good example of 'nobody has any examples of you being racist' being nowhere near enough to keep a reputation intact too. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-phillips.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-hig...

farrarstan 6y ago

It’s super easy for most people

CyanLite4 6y ago

Saying something to the effect of “we’re not racist, we have ONE black person that works here” isn’t a good idea. Especially if you’re the premier cryptocurrency exchange and still rely heavily on outside funding.

csense 6y ago

That's the beauty of it. Denying the charge or defending yourself simply digs you deeper into the hole. What you're supposed to do is admit you're a racist, fall down on your knees, abjectly beg forgiveness of your accusers, and list all the new things you'll be doing to stop being racist. Then your accusers have the power to forgive you. But you really, truly have to go all the way in submitting to their demands. And they still might not forgive you. After all, you're racist scum, the lowest of the low. It's an incredibly toxic and destructive way of handling the issue of racism. I know I'm not a racist -- I interact with people of all races. I don't let race enter into my interactions. I sleep well at night, because I know I'm not a racist. Defending myself against ridiculous allegations of racism is a game I refuse to play. For the good and simple reason that if you play the game, you can only lose.

peteretep 6y ago
> Defending myself against ridiculous allegations What in the heck are you doing that's inviting frequent accusations of racism?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  Making nice little statements like this: > The point is, if you want to face reality rather than live in a comfortable fantasy, you have to confront the possibility that the racists are right about one thing: It's possible that some races really do have less intelligence than others. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24889113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24889113
  - deleteme34444 6y ago
    It is very rude of you to completely neglect the reasonable discussion surrounding that cherry-picked quote and present it in this way that implies they are "racist" -- this is exactly the sort of behavior that needs to stop.

throwlastone 6y ago

Counter whatever evidence is presented with facts. The same way you make any argument. "You can't prove a negative" is mostly an imaginary problem, you don't need to prove anything, you need to convince people that your argument is better.

flowerlad 6y ago

> It's really really hard to prove your not racist. If anyone has any clue as how to do so, please share. If you have been accused of racism that's because somebody has an example of you being racist. If you did not have racist intent you can clarify your intent. Simply claiming you're not a racist won't do because pretty much everyone accused of racism makes that claim (example: central park dog walker, or any other person in the news accused of racism). Edit: I am talking about instances where the facts are not in question. For example, you did not hire Xyz, and you're accused of racism.

ovao 6y ago
That’s not accurate to say. A person may be accused of racism due to a misperception (or even fabrication) from another person’s perspective, and in such a case that’s not “an example of being racist”. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything; that’s not sufficient to suggest that the accused must be guilty on some level.
- xapata 6y ago
  You misread (I think). I believe they meant an example of an event that can be interpreted as racist, even if it wasn't. Thus the proper reaction is to supply an alternative explanation.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
eyeball 6y ago
> If you have been accused of racism that's because somebody has an example of you being racist. If only that were true.
rlt 6y ago
> If you have been accused of racism that's because somebody has an example of you being racist > any other person in the news accused of racism You’re kind of proving the point by claiming it’s always so clear cut.

doublekill 6y ago

What I learned from diversity training is that you need to accept the fact that society is systematically racist, and as a white person you benefit from this. So all whites are profiting from racism already. They have to come to terms with this, acknowledge the role that their ancestors played in furthering or creating racial inequality, and do everything in their privileged power to right this wrong: hire more black people. Promote more black people. Mentor more black people. Pay reparations to black people. Be a vocal supporter to black people. And realize and appreciate that you are different, and will never have to share what black people go through every day. What more can you do?

muglug 6y ago
> society is systematically racist, and as a white person you benefit from this. So all whites are profiting from racism already American society, certainly. Some white Europeans are a bit miffed at being lumped in with America’s problems. Europe has race/diversity problems of its own, but not on the same scale as the US’s.
- doublekill 6y ago
  My first European colleague was a male-to-female person. She had worked at a major company for years, got a bad performance report, and attributed it to her transition. It went to court and the company settled, instead of defending not promoting her (with or without regard of her transition). Very good programmer. She worked there for 1 year more, doing only things that the company laywers agreed to. In America I see similar things. I think it is seductive to be swept up with identity politics, and suddenly that promotion that went to a white person, feels different, feels racist. Or you employ a neurodiverse low-social skill person who makes an edgy unfunny joke, because he is nervous. That's "racist humor on the work floor" when going to a lawyer or journalist. It is a dangerous world out there. Current climate not helping.
  - muglug 6y ago
    I don’t believe neurodiverse people make racist jokes as a matter of course. At least, that hasn’t been my experience. I think journalists are also able to tell the difference between “some dude made a poor-taste joke once” and “dudes were always making poor-taste jokes targeted at one specific minority when the employee was present”. I’ll also say that, at my reasonably woke US company, I’m not aware of any neurodiverse person getting in any trouble for making a bad-taste joke.

Taek 6y ago

If you get accused of racism, what you should do is take the accusation seriously, assume that it is the result of genuine tension within the company, and then figure out places in your process where you were not being proactive enough about looking out for your employees and team chemistry. Happy employees don't accuse their employers of racism. If you are being accused of racism by your employees, surely something went wrong and there are things you can identify to improve, and then commit to improving those things as part of rebuilding your integrity.

julianmarq 6y ago
> If you are being accused [...], surely something went wrong This is "guilty until proven innocent", when exactly did this mentality catch on? Well, in any case I hope the trend reverses because it's directly opposite to how the law works.
- lmeyerov 6y ago
  Some things are bad enough that you don't even want to be in the grey zone. To be not that big and different people (from a likely already-small group) keep bringing it up... . People like to think of themselves as the hero, but if they keep getting misunderstood as the villain... well...
- Taek 6y ago
  Nobody is getting convicted of a crime here.
  - julianmarq 6y ago
    How is this apropos to my comment? I didn't say anyone was. The only way I can see how this might fit as a reply to my comment would be the implication that it's okay to throw accusations around, and accepting accusations as automatically true, just because the accusation is not of a crime. That's exactly what we shouldn't do. That's my point and I for one am not gonna start doing such anytime soon, and I also try to keep contact with people who do that at a minimum. For that matter, I would love if you elaborated on how an accusation must surely mean that a wrongdoing actually happened instead of replying with uncharitable interpretations of my comments.

an_opabinia 6y ago

I don’t know dude, I think it’s pretty easy to not make generalizations.