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I'm an Indian abroad. Do it. Come here to Europe. The baseline level of self-awareness in people here is off the scale when you compare it to the typical Ind
by helmholtz 6y ago
I'm an Indian abroad.
Do it.
Come here to Europe.
The baseline level of self-awareness in people here is off the scale when you compare it to the typical Indian. People actually queue, instead of creating a melee at every counter. You're never worrying about people cutting you in lines. Cars stop at zebra crossings to let pedestrians cross. No one honks! They nod and smile "bonjour!" as they cross you on the street. There is no pollution here. The food is great, the coffee is even better, the $5 wine at your local grocery store is some of the best in the world. The employees you'll work with have some basic dignity and shame. If they don't know something, they'll admit it. They won't grossly lie on their resumes. You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"! There is a basic amount of honesty here. You don't spend all your time worrying if the guy you're doing business with is fleecing you. You will find information about businesses online.
This place is as close to paradise as it gets on planet Earth.
Life, and especially youth, passes by in an instance. I highly advocate keeping this fact in mind in the face of do-gooders who judge you for your choices. The million small and large quality of life improvements lead to exactly that. A vastly higher quality of life.
- puranjay 6y agoWhat is your social life like? I worry that post 30, starting a social life from scratch might be too much, especially for someone who is admittedly not particularly social.
- helmholtz 6y agoI did arrive here a bit before 30, but I've been pretty lucky with it. In fairness, most of my friends are from work, so I got lucky. I've also been able to find love here. I firmly believe that if you go to a country eager to impose your own culture and your own way of doing things, you'll see friction. If you're open-minded and willing to attempt to integrate, you'll find even a little bit goes a long way, and the locals will willingly meet you halfway.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ra7 6y ago> You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"! I hear your complaints. But does this really deserve a mention as a reason not to live in India? Are you really this upset over a few phrases that has no material impact on your life? Seems a bit pretentious.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mangamadaiyan 6y agoIt's not the phrases themselves, it's (almost always) the context they are used in. They signify babudom at its worst.
- ra7 6y agoIt’s used by nearly everyone, not just babus. The memes in fact originate from engineers in India interacting with their international colleagues. In any case, it’s not something worth getting upset about.
- damnencryption 6y agoIt is if they are used abusively and sarcastically regularly.
- mangamadaiyan 6y agoYou're missing the forest for the trees. Like I said, it's not about the phrases themselves; then again, perhaps we are talking past each other. I'll just say that your notion of what is worth getting upset about (or not) _might not_ apply to everybody else, and leave it at that :)
- ra7 6y agoI don’t think I’m missing the point, which is those phrases are used widely enough that they don’t signify babudom. It’s common workplace English and has no wider context than “it’s just Indian English”, not in this day at least. Fair enough that what is worth getting upset about for me doesn’t apply to others.
- wolfretcrap 6y agoAnd Europe didn't get there without its share of troubles and problems. Today as we speak, the people are getting stabbed on the road (Cardiff) and in France islam extremists are responsible for terrorism. It doesn't seem like it will be stay the paradise for long.
- evgen 6y agoFor those not in the UK, the pearl-clutching here is about an incident where a bunch of teens had a fight in the 13th largest city in the country and four ended up stabbed. None dead (at the moment) and it is headline news here. I would invite the Americans in the audience to imagine a world where a gang fight that left four kids stabbed in Fort Worth, Tx was national news. Yeah, let me tell you about what a dangerous shithole this place is becoming.... /s
- pc86 6y agoNational, no. But four teens getting stabbed in a single incident might very well be news in most of Texas, which is only about half the population of the entire UK, and well over half the population of England proper. America's a big place.
- evgen 6y agoFour teens getting shot but not killed in gang-related activity would possibly make the eleven o’clock news but probably not make the front page of the large urban papers in Texas, certainly not national news. For a stabbing? No chance.
- jariel 6y agoMost advanced rich nations are like that (and FYI and you've just described why they are rich.)
- throwaway98797 6y agoI could never tease apart the correlation vs. causation. Is it the culture that drives progress or is it progress that drives a civil culture?
- vinay_ys 6y agoIMO, it is the population and resource density that makes the difference in human behavior. I have seen densely populated, resource stretched cities in the west that will put an Indian city to shame in bad road traffic behavior.
- damnencryption 6y agoI have to agree with the assertion. The political will to change anything decreases with the number of people in the area. It's hard to break compatibility between versions when you have a language used by almost everyone (javascript) vs when you are a new hippie lang. China seems to be the only exception here with PRC having draconian control over everything.
- helmholtz 6y agoAnd from the other side, there are remote mountain towns in the Himalayas full of some of the kindest, most hospitable people ever. So perhaps being packed like sardines isn't an optimal human state.
- jariel 6y ago'Population Density' is a civic function, not some random variable. Like many things, it's a random variable when there is no civic function, but once it exists, then it's part of 'planning' aka 'generating wealth' in whatever terms that means for a group of people. How does a township with 50% unemployment also have garbage lying about everywhere? The marginal cost of employing people to at least collect is minimal. A town with 50% unemployment is extremely rich in excess labour capacity, they should be able to hire people cheaply.' Why not? Because social organization is probably abysmal.
- eklavya 6y agoI am sure it will be hard for India to come up to that level if people just keep leaving for greener pastures. Europe didn’t get to be Europe by doing that. Of course it’s your choice to leave, I don’t know it somehow smells bad to my value system, but that’s just my problem. If enough people keep landing in Europe like this, I am pretty sure sooner or later, Europeans will be upset. It’s inevitable and human nature. Fixing your own place is better than crashing at somebody else’s.
- rendall 6y ago"Europe didn’t get to be Europe by doing that..." No, because all the troublemakers left to the US! I kid. I kid.
- linuxlizard 6y ago(American here.) No, no. You have a point.
- phobosanomaly 6y agoMe: Liberal Democrat Looks in my closet: Variety of legal assault rifles that would shock a European. Looks in my Garage: 4x4 Pickup truck and a plated dirtbike. America is packed to the brim with contrarian troublemakers. But we make some damn good beers.
- brabel 6y agoEngland got rid of all sorts of troublemakers by sending then down to Australia for a long time :D Somehow, it actually turned out great for both.
- cutemonster 6y agoExcept for the Aborigines (native Australians)
- Anthony-G 6y agoThere’s an element of truth to this: in the 19th century a substantial number of Irish republicans found refuge in the US – enough to invade Canada! [1] In the case of Australia, the trouble-makers were sent there against their will. [1] https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-fenian-invasions-canada https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-fenian-invasions-...
- anovikov 6y agoBeing European, that almost reminded me of the good old Soviet joke about Mukhosransk :D
- pc86 6y agoCare to share?
- anovikov 6y agoIt's hardly translatable, essentially boils down to "i want to live in Europe like that, too".
- WebDanube 6y agoA simple Google search pointed me to this blog post -- http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2019/04/mukhosransk-russias-third-city-dying-so.html http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2019/04/mukhosransk-rus...
- edouard-harris 6y agoI'm a native-born Canadian, married to a woman who was born in Bangladesh. I'm blown away by how much this list reads like an exact point-for-point description of why she moved here. (Except for the part about the $5 wine.)
- aydwi 6y agoIt is biting, but very true. You'd be surprised to experience firsthand how low values like integrity, ownership and shame rank for an overwhelming majority of people. The general rule of thumb is "get by, somehow, anyhow". Another trait is having little to no perspective on what a higher quality of life entails. It is awful, and depressing. A handful of people who are hurt and frustrated by this, share the same sentiment as the parent comment.
- piva00 6y agoYou can use almost the same description for Brazil. Reading it made me relate 90% to even the small issues (honking, respecting pedestrians on pedestrian crossings and so on). I think it's more of a common theme to unequal and impoverished countries where enforcement of law is tenuous at best and people don't trust others. If trust collapses everyone only cares about themselves and their loved ones, if bribing a police officer will help your kid to get out of a DUI... So be it, you will be considered an idiot if you don't do what the rest of society does, whatever small corruption or abuse that is. Because people know they will get away with it so why hinder yourself for such a thing as moral and values? I know it's a very broad generalisation of huge societies, unfortunately it's my experience growing up in Brazil and why I can't ever live there again.
- BonnieBrown 6y agoI am an American in California working as a Project Manager at a small ~30 person eCommerce "engine" startup. One of my new colleagues on the PM team is a very nice Indian girl and she always says "do the needful" in JIRA tickets and in general email communication. Before she joined the team about 2 months ago I never once in my life heard anyone in America say "do the needful". I am American and have lived here my entire life. I always thought the saying was slightly funny and almost "cute" in that no native American English speaker ever describes tasks to be done as being "needful". Where did that saying come from in India?
- damnyou 6y agoNot sure exactly what its origins are, but it's standard Indian English. It's a legitimate dialect of English, just like standard American English has its own unique idioms like "grandfathered in" (a term that has extremely racist origins).
- thr0w__4w4y 6y agoI'm always learning. I truly thought that the term was probably centuries old and had something to do with family legacy, old rules being followed to keep tradition, etc. You live, you learn. I often hear people use the phrase "call a spade a spade", thinking it's saying "if a card shows a spade, call it as a spade (when showing the hand)", but I've heard for a long time that phrase is also racist. Not growing up around anyone who ever used that phrase, I would have had no idea. Makes me wonder how many other phrases out there in every day use don't have a happy meaning, even though at first glance they might seem innocuous.
- fractalb 6y ago> You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"! I don't have issues with the rest of your post, but what is wrong using these Indian English words?
- helmholtz 6y agoEh, in hindsight, maybe I should have left out that part since it detracts from my other point. It's just an aesthetic thing. For instance, I really don't like the word 'purposely'. I never saw it used before the internet came about, and 'purposefully' and 'on purpose' worked perfectly well for me. I'm sure it's correct, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
- puranjay 6y agoI think OP is referring more to the sort of work culture associated with people who use language like that - bureaucratic, brown nosing, inefficient.
- vezycash 6y ago> "do the needful" In my place, "do the needful" could mean you need to pay a bribe before they can do their job. Another way it's phrased is, "you know what to do."
- cscurmudgeon 6y agoI am an Indian and lived in Europe and now living in the US. They are both good places for many reasons but don't be fooled. There is still corruption (different quality and distribution). Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard_scandal#Aggressive_attack_on_critics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard_scandal#Aggressive_at... https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2018/06/07/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-experimented-arizonans-bad-blood-book/675541002/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2018/06/0... Humans are same irrespective of culture. Surface level features and behavior are different but thats it.
- hn_99 6y ago>You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"! >Life, and especially youth, passes by in an instance. Considering how you hate these phrases of "Indian English" so much, the grammatical error in your comment is quite ironic.
- helmholtz 6y agoHahaha guilty as charged, and now I'm outside the HN editing limits. That's what happens when you try to type at the speed of thought. Serves me right, I guess.
- pc86 6y agoI wouldn't get too concerned over throw-away accounts getting their knickers in a twist over a throw-away line in an otherwise apt comment.
- hn_99 6y agoThis isn't a throwaway. I've been lurking HN for a while and never felt the need to comment before now. In retrospect that was a bit silly since OP has been pretty nice in all of their follow up comments. I still feel that while their criticisms are generally valid, they're a bit harsh.
- pionerkotik 6y ago> Cars stop at zebra crossings to let pedestrians cross Not in Italy though.
- codegeek 6y agomy most hated "kindly revert back" You have made some great points but stop shitting on Indian English. I don't like it either but you are coming off as an elitist shitting on people who are taught these phrases growing up.
- dang 6y agoI understand why that bit was provocative but please don't escalate into flamewar. It helps no one and just makes the thread worse. Besides, helmholtz already more or less took it back.
- codegeek 6y agoFair enough dang. I generally try to refrain from this stuff. Could have totally not replied to that post.
- ada1981 6y agoYou could also consider coming to America, but I’m not exactly sure why. It might be our strip malls, fetish with our slave owning past, white supremest president, anti-science pro-gun culture, or our vast obesity and narcissism. But somehow in all of that, I still love living here. The Ultimate Frisbee is great, lots of creative people, and we are starting to decriminalize psychedelics.
- Veen 6y agoIndia has strip malls, a Hindu-supremiscist Prime Minister, a huge and powerful anti-science culture, and, last but not least, around eight million people living in modern slavery. > The Global Slavery Index estimates that on any given day in 2016 there were nearly 8 million people living in modern slavery in India. In terms of prevalence of modern slavery in India, there were 6.1 victims for every thousand people. https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/country-studies/india/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/country-stu...
- ada1981 6y agoHow’s the Ultimate Frisbee? Also, Here’s a good short 8 min doc about Ultimate in the “Slums” of India. https://vimeo.com/205755382 https://vimeo.com/205755382
- WebDanube 6y agoYour comment was soul-soothing. As a 24-yr-old looking to emigrate within the next year or so, I couldn't agree more with your take. I feel India as a country (I know I'm homogenizing India; but I feel exceptions are rare, if any) has decayed to a point where there's pretty much no hope left for folks with progressive views looking to lead a life (especially one with intellectual pursuits) on their own terms instead of conforming to incredibly regressive stuff that an overbearing "society" constantly howls into your ears with a bullhorn.
- professorlogicx 6y agoWhat options can you take for immigration? I am curious as well as I am an Undergrad aged 20 who wants to live in different countries (especially EU and Canada). I was thinking of taking a masters as I can then make connections. Are there any other ways which can be taken?
- WebDanube 6y agoI can comment wrt the United States, as I already have members of my family there who've established themselves there for a few decades now. The most common route would be going there for Master's degree (MS or equivalent) and then later finding a job either before or immediately after graduating from your course. But you can also try other avenues like directly trying for a job via work visa, get someone to sponsor you (via an immigration petition -- but you need a present a valid argument for this and also find someone you trust who've established themselves there), or find a partner there with whom you're willing to cohabitate. I'd highly recommend trying for EU/Canada (as you mentioned yourself), Aus/NZ over the United States of America-- at least for the next few years until something resembling an immigration reform takes place -- unless if you have folks in the States who're willing to sponsor you or get you a good, well-paying H1B job. Good luck!