31 ms·

Pianists for Alternatively Sized Keyboards

183 points by spekcular 6y ago

calrueb 6y ago
Without knowing anything about keyboards this seems like a 'no brainer' to me. In fact, it seems so obvious that I am surprised market forces haven't solved for this already. I am curious why no one has come along, and built just this as there seems to be enough demand in the market.
- analog31 6y ago
  The people buying pianos are not typically the players themselves, but performance venues, teaching studios, etc. Even for kids, when a kid outgrown a 1/4 size fiddle, upgrading to the next size doesn't require a truck. Making multiple sizes is only one facet of what amounts to an infrastructure problem.
cmrdsprklpny 6y ago
Not exactly the same, but melodicas (and accordions I think) have smaller keyboards than standard pianos... I feel like if smaller keyboards were going to take off for people with small hands, they probably already would have by now(...?)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
lomaprietasolo 6y ago
As a pianist with relatively small hands I understand the motivation behind this. But: 1. At the vast majority of gigs I play (cocktail piano, big band, accompanying singers for auditions, etc), I play whatever piano is available. If I had spent my practice career on a smaller gauge instrument, I would be hobbled on any house piano. 2. I believe one can be just as expressive a pianist with smaller hands. There are several amazing smallhanded pianists to prove this. Keith Jarrett comes to mind. Sure, maybe some Rachmaninoff is out of reach, or Teddy Wilson's walking tenths, but there's effectively an infinite selection of other music to play. 3. If smaller pianos become popular, how long before modern repertoire starts including 13ths and other fiendish intervals? Last year I was in a church basement in Greenwich Village and encountered a Steinway Model B (my alltime favorite instrument). It was humiliating: I could barely play without fumbling and hitting wrong notes all over the place. I soon realized that the piano was small-scale like those mentioned in this article. While it was fun to suddenly be able to reach any tenth with no effort, otherwise it was not really enjoyable to play at all.
- stanrivers 6y ago
  Just going to say - for those that don't know Keith Jarrett.. go listen to the Koln Concert. When listening, remember that he improvised - meaning made up on the spot - every note that evening. One of the most powerful moments on the piano, at least to me. Amazon link to Koln concert: https://www.amazon.com/Koln-Concert-Keith-Jarrett/dp/B0000262WI https://www.amazon.com/Koln-Concert-Keith-Jarrett/dp/B000026...
  - jbaber 6y ago
    Seconded. The Koln Concert can't be oversold. https://youtu.be/Pd_Kti6jvy8 https://youtu.be/Pd_Kti6jvy8
  - sun_bear 6y ago
    What's even more fascinating to me is that the Köln Concert is just one of many long-form improvisations he did and, arguably, far from the best one. In roughly the following order, I recommend: Paris, 1988 Vienna, 1991 Lausanne, 1973 Sun Bear Concerts, 1976 (5(!) concerts in 14 days) Bremen, 1973 La Scala, 1995 Munich, 1982 ...and so on. If you _get_ Jarrett, it's a love affair for life.
  - edanm 6y ago
    Totally agree. But the best part of the story, which I wasn't aware of until recently, is this: when they organized the concert, they actually brought the wrong piano, and instead of a performance-ready piano, they brought a piano that was very bad ("The instrument was tinny and thin in the upper registers and weak in the bass register, and the pedals did not work properly" per Wikipedia). When Jarrett arrived and tried the piano a few hours before the concert, he almost refused to play. There were other terrible circumstances (he had barely slept in a few days, because of mixups hadn't eaten properly, etc). In the end he was convinced to go on, and played differently than he was used to to try and get the most out of the piano. What followed is widely hailed as a masterpiece, and remains his most popular work.
  - acomjean 6y ago
    I had a Keith Jarret casaste last century. It was just him at the piano, and parts were ok but other parts were mesmerizing. It was also when I discovered that when you listened through headphones you could hear him singing along. I’ll check out this concert. Sadly he’s not well and can no longer play. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/arts/music/keith-jarrett-piano.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/arts/music/keith-jarrett-...
tunesmith 6y ago
My college degree was in piano. My hand size is average, I can comfortably reach all ninths and most tenths. (F# - A# pisses me off.) It always bugged when my teachers would take umbrage about hand size complaints, they always had some piano pro to point out that had smaller hands than me. Yeah, I get it, I can arpeggiate, but you still can't make me learn Rachmaninoff. There's this Brahms 2nd rhapsody that I just love, but the climax of the entire piece is this chord that I can only hit if the stars align, and it just hurts my heart to arpeggiate it.
- Johanx64 6y ago
  Yeah, every time I hear stories of those "great pianists with small hands". Somehow those "small hands" always translate to "can comfortably reach 10ths or 11ths or more" and not octave at most. Which just drives home the point of how gigantic hands are taken as a reference point. And those supposed "greats" that do have smallish hands aren't all that great and have a severely limited pokey repertoire.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    If you can comfortably reach 10ths you do not have small hands. I have the opposite problem. I have thick sausage fingers and they don't fit easily between the black notes. This isn't a show stopper, but it's certainly a handicap compared to someone who has much thinner fingers.
- spekcular 6y ago
  Do you remember the opus number of the Brahms piece? I just looked at the Op. 79 rhapsodies and couldn't find the part you mentioned, though maybe I missed it.
  - tunesmith 6y ago
    Shows how long ago I played it, I got it a bit wrong. Sorry, it's actually the first rhapsody, op 79. Seven bars before the bridge, beat 2, left hand - two beats after the climax. It's actually notated arpeggio but it always felt like a wet noodle in my hand and I always felt like I could rip it off with authority if my hand was just a bit bigger. That middle section more than makes up for it though...
ftio 6y ago
As a lifelong musician, I’ve always found this odd. I grew up playing the accordion, which comes in many different sizes. Larger ones with larger/more keys are the sort of ‘standard’ for most adult players, but there’s no requirement to play any particular size, even in high level competitions. Even as an adult, I feel like piano keys are just _slightly_ too wide for me. I welcome this movement!
bjt 6y ago
Growing up, we had a Wurlitzer spinet piano with narrower-than-standard keys. I don't recommend getting one. Our narrower-key piano was what I would do all my practicing on. I didn't really know the difference at the time though. It was just a piano to me. While practicing, I'm sure I benefitted from being able to reach farther than I would on a standard size keyboard. But only while practicing. When it came time for performance, whether at church or at recitals in the music hall in the city library, the number of mistakes would shoot up. At the time I attributed it all just to nerves, but years later I realized I wasn't performing on an instrument of the same dimensions as the one I had practiced on. Having to switch your muscle memory like that is a tall order. So we've got these options: 1. Everywhere that there's one piano today, have three instead (as the article suggests), so people can pick the size they want to play. 2. Get a smaller one for yourself, and assume the risk of increased mistakes when performing on someone else's full size. 3. Choose consistency over greater reach, and practice on a full size. Some places could support option 1 (universities and symphony orchestras, perhaps), but it seems unrealistic for most homes, churches, and piano teachers. And I doubt that many concert halls with Faziolis ($100k and up) would be very excited about needing to buy 3 of them. With electronic instruments it becomes a lot more feasible. MIDI controllers already come in a variety of key widths. This market is competitive enough that if I were part of PASK, I'd start here and try to convince a manufacturer to claim this niche.
- mlyle 6y ago
  Maybe there's an argument to be made that instruction of children should happen on smaller keys, so that they have greater reach and can grow into performing on larger keys. Just like evidence shows that kids develop better shooting form and develop better playing on an 8' basketball hoop than larger hoops... I'd suspect that smaller keyboards would be better for children. > 2. Get a smaller one for yourself, and assume the risk of increased mistakes when performing on someone else's full size. Given that the current size is too big for most people, maybe we'd converge to the medium size suggested eventually in a perfect world.
- xuhu 6y ago
  Swappable keyboards maybe, even for acoustic pianos ?
Dumblydorr 6y ago
I'm a pianist of 20 years. I'm fine with manufacturers making these products. I'm fine with new repertoire being written for them too. There's just no getting around the fact: large hands are an advantage in piano music. If you can reach a 10th easily, that's great. If you can reach an octave very easily, thats very great. If you can't reach an octave easily, you will never master a large fraction of passages in Romantic and later music. For instance, try playing the octaves in Nocturne Op 48 No 1 by Chopin with small hands...far harder!
jtbayly 6y ago
I thought this was going to be about trying to find pianists who could play wrong-sized keyboards--pianists for alternatively sized keyboards. English is odd sometimes.
modeless 6y ago
Wouldn't hands have been smaller on average in the past when the current size was set?
thomastjeffery 6y ago
Where are the pianists for nonstandard keyboards? The traditional layout is terrible for so many more reasons than size. In order to become a proficient pianist, you must learn (create muscle memory for) every scale and chord 11 unnecessary times. 1 pattern for C, 1 for C#/Db, one for D, and so on. If we dropped the "white keys are for C Ionian and black keys are for 'accidentals'" layout for a chromatic one, a pianist would only need to learn every scale and chord once, and playing in a different key would involve nothing more than moving their hands. The same goes for notation and theory verbiage. It's like we're stuck in a codebase that was started centuries ago, and everyone is too afraid to commit a bugfix, let alone a major refactor.
- snowmaker 6y ago
  That's an interesting idea. Does a chromatic keyboard layout exist?
  - _ks3e 6y ago
    Yes, but it's very uncommon on pianos these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jankó_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jankó_keyboard Most button accordions and modern electronic instruments (Linnstrument, Soundplane, Eigenharp) are have chromatic layouts... I wonder if you could hook up one of these devices up to a player piano without too much latency.
    - gnud 6y ago
      You'd lose the physical dimension of playing the keys. For the accordion you adjust the force of the air, so you don't have to use different forces on the buttons. It's OK that you find them with only your fingertips. That's less OK when the force hitting the key is directly transferred to the string making the sound. You need a dynamic range. It seems to me most of the people here are forgetting that. Such a layout could probably be used on an organ. But I think keyboard size is less of a problem for organs?
      - bluGill 6y ago
Gimpei 6y ago
Wasn't the average height much smaller back in the 1880s when the current standard was apparently implemented. In which case, small-handed people might actually be closer to the size for which the current piano was originally intended.
akdor1154 6y ago
The struggles of small hands are real but I'd sooner see standardization of a single smaller keyboard than the proliferation of three different sizes. I am a white male pianist and double bass player - my hands comfortably span a ninth. I also spent way more time than is sensible getting good at melodica, with a smaller than piano keyboard. It was a bit rough to start with but I found myself adapt to sufficient accuracy pretty quickly.
milchek 6y ago
It's interesting because guitarists already have this depending on the scale length you play, which can go from 24.5" up to 28" or even 30" scale lengths depending on if you're playing extended range guitars or not (I'm sure there are shorter scales but I'm just going of 'standard' scale lengths). On top of this, neck materials, profiles and radius can very so you can find just the right fit for your hand. You can even get fanned frets or innovations like the Strandberg Endurneck to make playing more comfortable. I suppose this is because the guitar has more room for design flexibility compared to the traditional piano, which hasn't really changed much since it's inception.
- bjt 6y ago
  And you can carry your guitar with you. Unlike a pianist, a guitarist almost never shows up to a gig and plays someone else's instrument. So standardization is a lot less important. The other thing guitarists have going for them is that no matter what scale length you play, the shape of the chords and scales changes as you go up the neck. Guitarists are constantly training with differently-spaced frets just by moving up and down the fretboard. This makes it trivial to switch scale lengths compared to keyboardists switching key widths.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Guitars are cheap enough that most players have more than one. It is common at jams to trade guitars for a song (or night).
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    As another user in this thread pointed out, why not develop swappable keyboards? The full physical function of a piano can be described quite simply as a set of keys that cause mallets to hit strings (ignoring the pedals because you can play a piano without pedals, but not a piano without keys). The full physical function of something like a car or computer can't be described so simply, yet in those fields swappable parts and customization are taken for granted. Swappable keyboards, swappable pedals, maybe even swappable mallets. These would preserve the timbre and function of a traditional piano, while also accommodating personal preference and variation. Is it so inconceivable to imagine that maybe there is some room for innovation with classical instruments?
emmanueloga_ 6y ago
On a related note, does anybody know of any good DIY piano projects? I google around from time to time and I haven't been able to find anything yet. Sounds like a hard project to get right. I found this on github [1], seems like he did not go far. Quote: "Given that 3D printing has taken care of the lots-of-precise-parts requirement, there is now the possibility to explore different designs both for easy printing and assembly while also experimenting with the key feel." I kinda agree... I remember there was a time when making a computer keyboard seem prohibitively expensive and difficult, but these days is a normal thing. It doesn't have to be 88 keys for a start :-) EDIT: Just found a nice project! [2] Definitely sounds like a good idea to get some existing keyboard with about the target form factor and just mess around with the keys! I was looking for something similar to the layout of the dodeka keyboard [3]. 1: https://github.com/teletypist/modular-4bar-keyboard https://github.com/teletypist/modular-4bar-keyboard 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FADl1LfLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FADl1LfLc 3: https://www.dodekamusic.com/products/dodeka-keyboard/ https://www.dodekamusic.com/products/dodeka-keyboard/
ponker 6y ago
Sounds great. My 4 year old is starting to play two notes at the same time and clearly is frustrated that he can’t do it the way I do (he needs to use both hands for what I can do in one). A narrower electric piano shouldn’t be too expensive to make.
- bluGill 6y ago
  I bought a korg micro key for my kids. Cheap enough, and with a good sound font on my computer it sounds better than my old piano.
  - ponker 6y ago
    What's a sound font? And do they have to use a computer to use it?
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Goggle is probably you best bet if you care, there are a lot of details to use them. Essentially they are what your computer uses to turn a key press into sound. There are stand alone hardware synthesizers of varying sound quality, and keyboards with built in synthesizers, and varying quality. In both cases the best is great sound. I personally prefer to use a computer, but that is preference, nothing is wrong with other choices.
tpoacher 6y ago
As someone with big hands for whom the existing pianos feel too small, I can already see huge problems with this. (not least because they're only considering "smaller" sizes). Also, I believe standardization of piano sizes actually promotes diversity.
knolax 6y ago
As someone who doesn't play an instrument I simply do not understand the point of a piano or why it is so common. I can kinda understand other string instruments where there's a lot of technique and nuance involved in plucking the strings, but the whole point of a piano mechanism seems to be the elimination of such nuance. As far as I can tell, playing the piano is a repetitive and mechanical task where you're basically acting as a human MIDI controller. I do not understand why anyone would find joy in playing such a dull instrument.
- Rochus 6y ago
  That's funny. What instrument would you consider then not to be dull? You cannot compare a piano to e.g. a violin or a guitar. It's a completely different concept; you can e.g. play (theoretically) chords with ten or more (when you press two keys with one finger) simultaneous notes; and you can control the timbre and loudness by how fast you press the keys; it's like a percussion instrument with 88 parts.
  - mrob 6y ago
    The clavichord plays like a piano with aftertouch. Instead of hammers bouncing off the strings with no control except speed, the strings are hit with "tangents" that remain in contact with the string like tapping on a guitar. It was not often used for performance historically because it's too quiet, but modern amplification solves that problem.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      Most of them will probably be in the museum. The modern piano has a much larger sound and dynamic range, not to mention the much better tuning stability.
      - mrob 6y ago
        Tuning stability can be solved by adding a robotic tuning mechanism as found on some guitars, and automatically tuning before every performance. Dynamic range can be increased by adding multiple keyboards, each going through different effects pedals. Even with these improvements it will still probably be cheaper than a good grand piano.
Someone 6y ago
I would guess keyboard size correlates with piano size and piano size correlates with audio volume. If so, historically, that must have been a driving force for larger pianos, so that they don’t get overwhelmed by other instruments in an orchestra. Or is volume mostly correlated with string length, and could it be kept identical in a piano that is less wide by increasing its height (for upright pianos) /depth (for grand pianos)? Also, is crosstalk between piano strings significant in pianos and is distance between piano strings a significant factor in it? If so, moving strings closing together would affect it (for better or for worse, but changing the sound).
joshspankit 6y ago
PLEASE also for computer keyboards
siltpotato 6y ago
An alternative perspective on smaller keys: small keys hurt. I can play rapid, noodling solos on a "real" sized keyboard for fifteen minutes, but my MicroKorg XL+, which I only bought because I thought it was significantly larger than the Microkorg (I have since learned to recognize relative length of keys in pictures), is a physical pain to solo on in my style because the keys are closer together. I don't know why this is; intuitively it should not be. But it is, at least for me. Would anyone care to explain?
dheera 6y ago
The obvious downside to this is that if a piano you encounter isn't the right size you won't be able to play it. Venues will have to buy not 1, but 3 Steinway grands, if they want any player to be able to play.
iainctduncan 6y ago
A thought experiment people might find helpful, when wondering whether it makes a difference: In other instruments that are available with different ergonomics, pro players spend a long time finding the make and model that "fits that their hands" among other criteria. When I switched from a vintage Buffet Dyna-80 tenor (big finger spacing) to a Yanigasawa 902 tenor (small finger spacing), the difference was immediately noticeable and helpful. Zero doubt about it. Guitarists and bassists have known this forever too and hunt for necks that fit their hands. While there is no doubt that there is a lot more to piano than hand size, there is equally no doubt that certain repertoire is much easier for people who's morphology fits the standard piano. (Which was, of course sized for men).
amai 6y ago
If Apple would design a piano there would be no keys at all, just a very wide touch screen. Then you could just configure and reconfigure the layout for every user/player via some software app. Of course the whole thing would be called iPiano, made for those who like to play different.
DemiliciousOne 6y ago
When I used to play competitively, my teacher and I would spend countless hours figuring out hacky fingerings to use because I just couldn't play many passages or notes, normally. I could never consider playing Rachmaninoff haha, which I'm sure anyone without extremely large hands can relate to.
jsz0 6y ago
Seems reasonable enough considering many other instruments are available in a range of common sizes. The bigger problem I see is the ergonomics of most instruments are terrible and that will continue to be a burden at any size until they are radically redesigned and modernized.
setgree 6y ago
I’ve never thought about this before, but it makes sense, especially with the advent of electronic keyboards. I grew up playing cello and didn’t get a full-sized (4/4) instrument until I was in high school. It seems like a good idea to let folks with smaller hands have pianos that are appropriately sized.
eyelidlessness 6y ago
I’m an adult male[-bodied human] with a relatively largish body/frame/hand size. I’m a musician. I find the piano keyboard more intuitive than my more familiar instrument (guitar). But I’ve always struggled playing the piano/keys due to key size. I’m definitely interested in this effort.
mentos 6y ago
This will give people with smaller hands an advantage until the people with larger hands start playing the smaller piano.
- flippinburgers 6y ago
  The hilarious over-correction will be a hand size limit on the smaller instruments.
- dengsauve 6y ago
  I don't think this is specifically to give anyone an advantage, more like how there are differently sized guitars/violins/cellos for differently sized people.
- bsder 6y ago
  Your finger width will put a damper on this. Large hands generally go with wider fingers. The problem is that keyboard width is a function of soundboard width. Shrinking the keyboard likely also means shrinking the soundboard which has engineering tradeoffs. For electric stuff, though, I don't see an issue.
  - spekcular 6y ago
    The people advocating this have figured out how to place smaller keyboards in standard pianos so there's no loss of sound. (However, due to the increased angle of the keys to the levers that play the strings, some of the mechanism needs additional reinforcement to prevent breakage.)
CountHackulus 6y ago
Finally, I can play Rachmaninoff properly! Definitely not because I don't practice enough.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vixen99 6y ago
  Sure but you'll almost certainly only ever going to be able to play in your own home. Though - if Alicia de Larrocher (one of the 'greats') 'at less than five feet tall and with small hands for a pianist spanning an interval of barely a tenth on the keyboard' could manage both Rachmaninov concertos I'm sure you can. She was highly inventive with her fingering!
dengsauve 6y ago
The 3 suggested sizes are large (current standard) and two smaller keyboards. I would like to humbly submit a 4th change. The large keyboard, but with narrower black keys. I have the hand size and range to play well on a large keyboard, but my biggest struggle has been my wide fingers being unable to fit between the black keys (only by a few millimeters). I have large hands and I used to be able to play very well, but in college it began to get harder and harder to get my fingers between the keys.
- tokamak-teapot 6y ago
  I was looking for this comment. I played the piano as a child and, as an adult, bought a well-used Clavinova as soon as I could afford it. It wasn’t long before I had to admit I had a problem with getting my fingers between the black keys. I have found some people suggesting altering playing style so that the fingers don’t play between pairs of black keys. I can’t find a way to do this that feels right at all. Another suggestion was that some pianos have slightly more space between the black keys so larger fingers can fit in the gaps. I’m hoping there is an electric piano with this larger gap.
- mkl 6y ago
  I have a Chromatone, which has a different key layout I think would solve that problem: https://www.chromatone.jp/ https://www.chromatone.jp/ Unfortunately, they are no longer for sale. I got mine really cheap, while they were getting rid of old stock. I have commented in detail about it in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21842632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21842632
  - ngcc_hk 6y ago
    I think the movement is about standard not just one or two, a bit like 4/4 1/4 etc size of violin but not just for kids.
  - a-nikolaev 6y ago
    I played Russian accordion with this type of a layout (EDIT: not the same as chromatone, which uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard ), and I think it is superior to the piano keyboard. But the piano layout seems to be the default for almost any modern digital instrument/device, so you need to play piano anyway to use any of them. And this uniformity was not a thing in the past, when people designed all sorts of "analog" instruments (violins, guitars, trumpets, etc.)
kelnos 6y ago
Huh, this is cool. I can barely reach an octave, and then not at all comfortably. Wouldn't mind narrower keys, though I assume they take some getting used to. (Then again, I'm a terrible player who never practices and wouldn't even consider calling himself a "pianist" at any level.)
exabrial 6y ago
Seems like a good place to start with this world be semi-weighed MIDI controllers. Far cheaper to make and the market could be tested to get the correct sizing and guage demand for each size
joegahona 6y ago
How widely does this exist in other instruments? It seems problematic to me to learn on one size and then have to upsize as you get older. The analogy of the running shoes is interesting, but what if people learned to shoot hoops on various basketball-rim heights? Isn't that going to be counterproductive in the long run? Also, I'm sure the people behind this initiative have thought of this, but doing this on a piano -- which is massive and expensive -- is a much different challenge than doing it on a violin or a guitar. As a snarky aside, it's always funny when a site calling for more accessibility and custom control over the interface hijacks my scrolling.
- bluGill 6y ago
  You can learn to switch sizes if you try. I have two keyboards, one with narrow keys (korg micro key, bought for my kids as they can't reach even a simple 5-7 chord), and I play it just fine. I even have them one on top of the other and play both at once sometimes, one each hand. it isn't hard once you practice a little. (but not my ability is barely simple kids songs so I'm not a good example)
  - analog31 6y ago
    Indeed, I play double bass, two lengths of electric bass, and cello (tuned in fifths). It's remarkable how our brains and bodies can adapt.
- TylerE 6y ago
  Funny you cite basketball, since at various levels the 3 pt and free throw lines are at different distances
- flippinburgers 6y ago
  At this rate I would wager that hoop height will be under fire at some point if it isn't already.
- mlyle 6y ago
  > what if people learned to shoot hoops on various basketball-rim heights? Isn't that going to be counterproductive in the long run? Actually, consensus is forming around the opposite, here! Small children are almost never strong enough to shoot with proper form on a 10' hoop. If you give them an 8' hoop, they can begin practicing with proper form earlier, which is a more important factor in consistent shooting than having to adjust to a higher hoop later. e.g. https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/79/2018/03/7-8_Rules_and_Standards.pdf https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/79/20...
spekcular 6y ago
I find the most compelling argument for smaller keyboards to be the gender disparity in high level piano competitions: http://smallpianokeyboards.org/competition-results/ http://smallpianokeyboards.org/competition-results/. The short version: more women play the piano at the collegiate level and beyond than men, but they are woefully underrepresented among the winners of international piano competitions. Why? Because their hands are too small to play demanding repertoire – certain pieces are literally "out of reach" due to the large chords involved. For violin competitions, where reach is a less significant factor, there is no such gender discrepancy. For the long version, please read the link.
- onlyreply 6y ago
  Please, kys
- jberryman 6y ago
  Are these competitions behind a screen? I'm only somewhat familiar with the Can Cliburn competition, and it seemed as though it was in the open on a stage. If they aren't blind then I'd expect gender bias is a more obvious explanation (obvious because the effect that blind auditions have had in the gender make up of orchestras is obvious and dramatic)
  - saulrh 6y ago
    I went looking for other data that might let us make conclusions about the situation. Here's what I found: Cayea, Danelle, and Ralph A. Manchester. "Instrument-specific rates of upper-extremity injuries in music students." Organ 26.362 (1998): 11-14. The high-injury-rate instruments (12.0 to 18.0) included the piano, guitar, and harp. Women had a higher overall injury rate thanmen (8.9 vs 5.9). Small sample sizes for some instruments (e.g. only ~20 female trumpet players) make me doubt the solidity of the results, but it looks like bigger instruments are vastly more dangerous for women to play. The piano and organ are both pretty bad, with about 10% of women reporting injuries compared to about 7.5% of men. The double bass has the largest difference in the study, with 17% women reporting injuries compared to 8% of men. I have no idea how harps compare because there were exactly zero male harpists in the sample, but female harp was tied with female double bass as highest-injury sampled instrument at 17%. Note that, as the studied population was "the students at a single institution's music major", an RSI injury this early might indicate the beginning of a chronic, career-limiting problem. I can't find any competitions for the double bass that I might be able to use to confirm the correlation between injury rate and under-representation in high-level competition. TL;DR I find it quite plausible that some instruments are objectively difficult for women to play as indicated by a higher level of upper-body injury. edit: I read some more of the site and found http://smallpianokeyboards.org/pain-injury-and-performance-quality/ http://smallpianokeyboards.org/pain-injury-and-performance-q..., which agrees with the research I did above.
emersonrsantos 6y ago
Bigger keyboards for the challenge.
amelius 6y ago
Or how about a chromatic keyboard without black keys? Wouldn't that make more sense, since transposition becomes a simple matter of shifting?
- TylerE 6y ago
  At that point you’d be better served by looking at one on the various 2d layouts. Those would be very difficult to implement on an acoustic piano though as they have multiple keys triggering a single note.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

183 points by spekcular 6y ago

Without knowing anything about keyboards this seems like a 'no brainer' to me. In fact, it seems so obvious that I am surprised market forces haven't solved for this already. I am curious why no one has come along, and built just this as there seems to be enough demand in the market.

analog31 6y ago
The people buying pianos are not typically the players themselves, but performance venues, teaching studios, etc. Even for kids, when a kid outgrown a 1/4 size fiddle, upgrading to the next size doesn't require a truck. Making multiple sizes is only one facet of what amounts to an infrastructure problem.

cmrdsprklpny 6y ago

Not exactly the same, but melodicas (and accordions I think) have smaller keyboards than standard pianos... I feel like if smaller keyboards were going to take off for people with small hands, they probably already would have by now(...?)

deleted 6y ago

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lomaprietasolo 6y ago

As a pianist with relatively small hands I understand the motivation behind this. But: 1. At the vast majority of gigs I play (cocktail piano, big band, accompanying singers for auditions, etc), I play whatever piano is available. If I had spent my practice career on a smaller gauge instrument, I would be hobbled on any house piano. 2. I believe one can be just as expressive a pianist with smaller hands. There are several amazing smallhanded pianists to prove this. Keith Jarrett comes to mind. Sure, maybe some Rachmaninoff is out of reach, or Teddy Wilson's walking tenths, but there's effectively an infinite selection of other music to play. 3. If smaller pianos become popular, how long before modern repertoire starts including 13ths and other fiendish intervals? Last year I was in a church basement in Greenwich Village and encountered a Steinway Model B (my alltime favorite instrument). It was humiliating: I could barely play without fumbling and hitting wrong notes all over the place. I soon realized that the piano was small-scale like those mentioned in this article. While it was fun to suddenly be able to reach any tenth with no effort, otherwise it was not really enjoyable to play at all.

stanrivers 6y ago
Just going to say - for those that don't know Keith Jarrett.. go listen to the Koln Concert. When listening, remember that he improvised - meaning made up on the spot - every note that evening. One of the most powerful moments on the piano, at least to me. Amazon link to Koln concert: https://www.amazon.com/Koln-Concert-Keith-Jarrett/dp/B0000262WI https://www.amazon.com/Koln-Concert-Keith-Jarrett/dp/B000026...
- jbaber 6y ago
  Seconded. The Koln Concert can't be oversold. https://youtu.be/Pd_Kti6jvy8 https://youtu.be/Pd_Kti6jvy8
- sun_bear 6y ago
  What's even more fascinating to me is that the Köln Concert is just one of many long-form improvisations he did and, arguably, far from the best one. In roughly the following order, I recommend: Paris, 1988 Vienna, 1991 Lausanne, 1973 Sun Bear Concerts, 1976 (5(!) concerts in 14 days) Bremen, 1973 La Scala, 1995 Munich, 1982 ...and so on. If you _get_ Jarrett, it's a love affair for life.
- edanm 6y ago
  Totally agree. But the best part of the story, which I wasn't aware of until recently, is this: when they organized the concert, they actually brought the wrong piano, and instead of a performance-ready piano, they brought a piano that was very bad ("The instrument was tinny and thin in the upper registers and weak in the bass register, and the pedals did not work properly" per Wikipedia). When Jarrett arrived and tried the piano a few hours before the concert, he almost refused to play. There were other terrible circumstances (he had barely slept in a few days, because of mixups hadn't eaten properly, etc). In the end he was convinced to go on, and played differently than he was used to to try and get the most out of the piano. What followed is widely hailed as a masterpiece, and remains his most popular work.
- acomjean 6y ago
  I had a Keith Jarret casaste last century. It was just him at the piano, and parts were ok but other parts were mesmerizing. It was also when I discovered that when you listened through headphones you could hear him singing along. I’ll check out this concert. Sadly he’s not well and can no longer play. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/arts/music/keith-jarrett-piano.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/arts/music/keith-jarrett-...

tunesmith 6y ago

My college degree was in piano. My hand size is average, I can comfortably reach all ninths and most tenths. (F# - A# pisses me off.) It always bugged when my teachers would take umbrage about hand size complaints, they always had some piano pro to point out that had smaller hands than me. Yeah, I get it, I can arpeggiate, but you still can't make me learn Rachmaninoff. There's this Brahms 2nd rhapsody that I just love, but the climax of the entire piece is this chord that I can only hit if the stars align, and it just hurts my heart to arpeggiate it.

Johanx64 6y ago
Yeah, every time I hear stories of those "great pianists with small hands". Somehow those "small hands" always translate to "can comfortably reach 10ths or 11ths or more" and not octave at most. Which just drives home the point of how gigantic hands are taken as a reference point. And those supposed "greats" that do have smallish hands aren't all that great and have a severely limited pokey repertoire.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  If you can comfortably reach 10ths you do not have small hands. I have the opposite problem. I have thick sausage fingers and they don't fit easily between the black notes. This isn't a show stopper, but it's certainly a handicap compared to someone who has much thinner fingers.
spekcular 6y ago
Do you remember the opus number of the Brahms piece? I just looked at the Op. 79 rhapsodies and couldn't find the part you mentioned, though maybe I missed it.
- tunesmith 6y ago
  Shows how long ago I played it, I got it a bit wrong. Sorry, it's actually the first rhapsody, op 79. Seven bars before the bridge, beat 2, left hand - two beats after the climax. It's actually notated arpeggio but it always felt like a wet noodle in my hand and I always felt like I could rip it off with authority if my hand was just a bit bigger. That middle section more than makes up for it though...

ftio 6y ago

As a lifelong musician, I’ve always found this odd. I grew up playing the accordion, which comes in many different sizes. Larger ones with larger/more keys are the sort of ‘standard’ for most adult players, but there’s no requirement to play any particular size, even in high level competitions. Even as an adult, I feel like piano keys are just _slightly_ too wide for me. I welcome this movement!

bjt 6y ago

Growing up, we had a Wurlitzer spinet piano with narrower-than-standard keys. I don't recommend getting one. Our narrower-key piano was what I would do all my practicing on. I didn't really know the difference at the time though. It was just a piano to me. While practicing, I'm sure I benefitted from being able to reach farther than I would on a standard size keyboard. But only while practicing. When it came time for performance, whether at church or at recitals in the music hall in the city library, the number of mistakes would shoot up. At the time I attributed it all just to nerves, but years later I realized I wasn't performing on an instrument of the same dimensions as the one I had practiced on. Having to switch your muscle memory like that is a tall order. So we've got these options: 1. Everywhere that there's one piano today, have three instead (as the article suggests), so people can pick the size they want to play. 2. Get a smaller one for yourself, and assume the risk of increased mistakes when performing on someone else's full size. 3. Choose consistency over greater reach, and practice on a full size. Some places could support option 1 (universities and symphony orchestras, perhaps), but it seems unrealistic for most homes, churches, and piano teachers. And I doubt that many concert halls with Faziolis ($100k and up) would be very excited about needing to buy 3 of them. With electronic instruments it becomes a lot more feasible. MIDI controllers already come in a variety of key widths. This market is competitive enough that if I were part of PASK, I'd start here and try to convince a manufacturer to claim this niche.

mlyle 6y ago
Maybe there's an argument to be made that instruction of children should happen on smaller keys, so that they have greater reach and can grow into performing on larger keys. Just like evidence shows that kids develop better shooting form and develop better playing on an 8' basketball hoop than larger hoops... I'd suspect that smaller keyboards would be better for children. > 2. Get a smaller one for yourself, and assume the risk of increased mistakes when performing on someone else's full size. Given that the current size is too big for most people, maybe we'd converge to the medium size suggested eventually in a perfect world.
xuhu 6y ago
Swappable keyboards maybe, even for acoustic pianos ?

Dumblydorr 6y ago

I'm a pianist of 20 years. I'm fine with manufacturers making these products. I'm fine with new repertoire being written for them too. There's just no getting around the fact: large hands are an advantage in piano music. If you can reach a 10th easily, that's great. If you can reach an octave very easily, thats very great. If you can't reach an octave easily, you will never master a large fraction of passages in Romantic and later music. For instance, try playing the octaves in Nocturne Op 48 No 1 by Chopin with small hands...far harder!

jtbayly 6y ago

I thought this was going to be about trying to find pianists who could play wrong-sized keyboards--pianists for alternatively sized keyboards. English is odd sometimes.

modeless 6y ago

Wouldn't hands have been smaller on average in the past when the current size was set?

thomastjeffery 6y ago

Where are the pianists for nonstandard keyboards? The traditional layout is terrible for so many more reasons than size. In order to become a proficient pianist, you must learn (create muscle memory for) every scale and chord 11 unnecessary times. 1 pattern for C, 1 for C#/Db, one for D, and so on. If we dropped the "white keys are for C Ionian and black keys are for 'accidentals'" layout for a chromatic one, a pianist would only need to learn every scale and chord once, and playing in a different key would involve nothing more than moving their hands. The same goes for notation and theory verbiage. It's like we're stuck in a codebase that was started centuries ago, and everyone is too afraid to commit a bugfix, let alone a major refactor.

snowmaker 6y ago
That's an interesting idea. Does a chromatic keyboard layout exist?
- _ks3e 6y ago
  Yes, but it's very uncommon on pianos these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jankó_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jankó_keyboard Most button accordions and modern electronic instruments (Linnstrument, Soundplane, Eigenharp) are have chromatic layouts... I wonder if you could hook up one of these devices up to a player piano without too much latency.
  - gnud 6y ago
    You'd lose the physical dimension of playing the keys. For the accordion you adjust the force of the air, so you don't have to use different forces on the buttons. It's OK that you find them with only your fingertips. That's less OK when the force hitting the key is directly transferred to the string making the sound. You need a dynamic range. It seems to me most of the people here are forgetting that. Such a layout could probably be used on an organ. But I think keyboard size is less of a problem for organs?
    - bluGill 6y ago

Gimpei 6y ago

Wasn't the average height much smaller back in the 1880s when the current standard was apparently implemented. In which case, small-handed people might actually be closer to the size for which the current piano was originally intended.

akdor1154 6y ago

The struggles of small hands are real but I'd sooner see standardization of a single smaller keyboard than the proliferation of three different sizes. I am a white male pianist and double bass player - my hands comfortably span a ninth. I also spent way more time than is sensible getting good at melodica, with a smaller than piano keyboard. It was a bit rough to start with but I found myself adapt to sufficient accuracy pretty quickly.

milchek 6y ago

It's interesting because guitarists already have this depending on the scale length you play, which can go from 24.5" up to 28" or even 30" scale lengths depending on if you're playing extended range guitars or not (I'm sure there are shorter scales but I'm just going of 'standard' scale lengths). On top of this, neck materials, profiles and radius can very so you can find just the right fit for your hand. You can even get fanned frets or innovations like the Strandberg Endurneck to make playing more comfortable. I suppose this is because the guitar has more room for design flexibility compared to the traditional piano, which hasn't really changed much since it's inception.

bjt 6y ago
And you can carry your guitar with you. Unlike a pianist, a guitarist almost never shows up to a gig and plays someone else's instrument. So standardization is a lot less important. The other thing guitarists have going for them is that no matter what scale length you play, the shape of the chords and scales changes as you go up the neck. Guitarists are constantly training with differently-spaced frets just by moving up and down the fretboard. This makes it trivial to switch scale lengths compared to keyboardists switching key widths.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Guitars are cheap enough that most players have more than one. It is common at jams to trade guitars for a song (or night).
- silicon2401 6y ago
  As another user in this thread pointed out, why not develop swappable keyboards? The full physical function of a piano can be described quite simply as a set of keys that cause mallets to hit strings (ignoring the pedals because you can play a piano without pedals, but not a piano without keys). The full physical function of something like a car or computer can't be described so simply, yet in those fields swappable parts and customization are taken for granted. Swappable keyboards, swappable pedals, maybe even swappable mallets. These would preserve the timbre and function of a traditional piano, while also accommodating personal preference and variation. Is it so inconceivable to imagine that maybe there is some room for innovation with classical instruments?

emmanueloga_ 6y ago

On a related note, does anybody know of any good DIY piano projects? I google around from time to time and I haven't been able to find anything yet. Sounds like a hard project to get right. I found this on github [1], seems like he did not go far. Quote: "Given that 3D printing has taken care of the lots-of-precise-parts requirement, there is now the possibility to explore different designs both for easy printing and assembly while also experimenting with the key feel." I kinda agree... I remember there was a time when making a computer keyboard seem prohibitively expensive and difficult, but these days is a normal thing. It doesn't have to be 88 keys for a start :-) EDIT: Just found a nice project! [2] Definitely sounds like a good idea to get some existing keyboard with about the target form factor and just mess around with the keys! I was looking for something similar to the layout of the dodeka keyboard [3]. 1: https://github.com/teletypist/modular-4bar-keyboard https://github.com/teletypist/modular-4bar-keyboard 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FADl1LfLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FADl1LfLc 3: https://www.dodekamusic.com/products/dodeka-keyboard/ https://www.dodekamusic.com/products/dodeka-keyboard/

ponker 6y ago

Sounds great. My 4 year old is starting to play two notes at the same time and clearly is frustrated that he can’t do it the way I do (he needs to use both hands for what I can do in one). A narrower electric piano shouldn’t be too expensive to make.

bluGill 6y ago
I bought a korg micro key for my kids. Cheap enough, and with a good sound font on my computer it sounds better than my old piano.
- ponker 6y ago
  What's a sound font? And do they have to use a computer to use it?
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Goggle is probably you best bet if you care, there are a lot of details to use them. Essentially they are what your computer uses to turn a key press into sound. There are stand alone hardware synthesizers of varying sound quality, and keyboards with built in synthesizers, and varying quality. In both cases the best is great sound. I personally prefer to use a computer, but that is preference, nothing is wrong with other choices.

tpoacher 6y ago

As someone with big hands for whom the existing pianos feel too small, I can already see huge problems with this. (not least because they're only considering "smaller" sizes). Also, I believe standardization of piano sizes actually promotes diversity.

knolax 6y ago

As someone who doesn't play an instrument I simply do not understand the point of a piano or why it is so common. I can kinda understand other string instruments where there's a lot of technique and nuance involved in plucking the strings, but the whole point of a piano mechanism seems to be the elimination of such nuance. As far as I can tell, playing the piano is a repetitive and mechanical task where you're basically acting as a human MIDI controller. I do not understand why anyone would find joy in playing such a dull instrument.

Rochus 6y ago
That's funny. What instrument would you consider then not to be dull? You cannot compare a piano to e.g. a violin or a guitar. It's a completely different concept; you can e.g. play (theoretically) chords with ten or more (when you press two keys with one finger) simultaneous notes; and you can control the timbre and loudness by how fast you press the keys; it's like a percussion instrument with 88 parts.
- mrob 6y ago
  The clavichord plays like a piano with aftertouch. Instead of hammers bouncing off the strings with no control except speed, the strings are hit with "tangents" that remain in contact with the string like tapping on a guitar. It was not often used for performance historically because it's too quiet, but modern amplification solves that problem.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Most of them will probably be in the museum. The modern piano has a much larger sound and dynamic range, not to mention the much better tuning stability.
    - mrob 6y ago
      Tuning stability can be solved by adding a robotic tuning mechanism as found on some guitars, and automatically tuning before every performance. Dynamic range can be increased by adding multiple keyboards, each going through different effects pedals. Even with these improvements it will still probably be cheaper than a good grand piano.

Someone 6y ago

I would guess keyboard size correlates with piano size and piano size correlates with audio volume. If so, historically, that must have been a driving force for larger pianos, so that they don’t get overwhelmed by other instruments in an orchestra. Or is volume mostly correlated with string length, and could it be kept identical in a piano that is less wide by increasing its height (for upright pianos) /depth (for grand pianos)? Also, is crosstalk between piano strings significant in pianos and is distance between piano strings a significant factor in it? If so, moving strings closing together would affect it (for better or for worse, but changing the sound).

joshspankit 6y ago

PLEASE also for computer keyboards

siltpotato 6y ago

An alternative perspective on smaller keys: small keys hurt. I can play rapid, noodling solos on a "real" sized keyboard for fifteen minutes, but my MicroKorg XL+, which I only bought because I thought it was significantly larger than the Microkorg (I have since learned to recognize relative length of keys in pictures), is a physical pain to solo on in my style because the keys are closer together. I don't know why this is; intuitively it should not be. But it is, at least for me. Would anyone care to explain?

dheera 6y ago

The obvious downside to this is that if a piano you encounter isn't the right size you won't be able to play it. Venues will have to buy not 1, but 3 Steinway grands, if they want any player to be able to play.

iainctduncan 6y ago

A thought experiment people might find helpful, when wondering whether it makes a difference: In other instruments that are available with different ergonomics, pro players spend a long time finding the make and model that "fits that their hands" among other criteria. When I switched from a vintage Buffet Dyna-80 tenor (big finger spacing) to a Yanigasawa 902 tenor (small finger spacing), the difference was immediately noticeable and helpful. Zero doubt about it. Guitarists and bassists have known this forever too and hunt for necks that fit their hands. While there is no doubt that there is a lot more to piano than hand size, there is equally no doubt that certain repertoire is much easier for people who's morphology fits the standard piano. (Which was, of course sized for men).

amai 6y ago

If Apple would design a piano there would be no keys at all, just a very wide touch screen. Then you could just configure and reconfigure the layout for every user/player via some software app. Of course the whole thing would be called iPiano, made for those who like to play different.

DemiliciousOne 6y ago

When I used to play competitively, my teacher and I would spend countless hours figuring out hacky fingerings to use because I just couldn't play many passages or notes, normally. I could never consider playing Rachmaninoff haha, which I'm sure anyone without extremely large hands can relate to.

jsz0 6y ago

Seems reasonable enough considering many other instruments are available in a range of common sizes. The bigger problem I see is the ergonomics of most instruments are terrible and that will continue to be a burden at any size until they are radically redesigned and modernized.

setgree 6y ago

I’ve never thought about this before, but it makes sense, especially with the advent of electronic keyboards. I grew up playing cello and didn’t get a full-sized (4/4) instrument until I was in high school. It seems like a good idea to let folks with smaller hands have pianos that are appropriately sized.

eyelidlessness 6y ago

I’m an adult male[-bodied human] with a relatively largish body/frame/hand size. I’m a musician. I find the piano keyboard more intuitive than my more familiar instrument (guitar). But I’ve always struggled playing the piano/keys due to key size. I’m definitely interested in this effort.

mentos 6y ago

This will give people with smaller hands an advantage until the people with larger hands start playing the smaller piano.

flippinburgers 6y ago
The hilarious over-correction will be a hand size limit on the smaller instruments.
dengsauve 6y ago
I don't think this is specifically to give anyone an advantage, more like how there are differently sized guitars/violins/cellos for differently sized people.
bsder 6y ago
Your finger width will put a damper on this. Large hands generally go with wider fingers. The problem is that keyboard width is a function of soundboard width. Shrinking the keyboard likely also means shrinking the soundboard which has engineering tradeoffs. For electric stuff, though, I don't see an issue.
- spekcular 6y ago
  The people advocating this have figured out how to place smaller keyboards in standard pianos so there's no loss of sound. (However, due to the increased angle of the keys to the levers that play the strings, some of the mechanism needs additional reinforcement to prevent breakage.)

CountHackulus 6y ago

Finally, I can play Rachmaninoff properly! Definitely not because I don't practice enough.

deleted 6y ago
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vixen99 6y ago
Sure but you'll almost certainly only ever going to be able to play in your own home. Though - if Alicia de Larrocher (one of the 'greats') 'at less than five feet tall and with small hands for a pianist spanning an interval of barely a tenth on the keyboard' could manage both Rachmaninov concertos I'm sure you can. She was highly inventive with her fingering!

dengsauve 6y ago

The 3 suggested sizes are large (current standard) and two smaller keyboards. I would like to humbly submit a 4th change. The large keyboard, but with narrower black keys. I have the hand size and range to play well on a large keyboard, but my biggest struggle has been my wide fingers being unable to fit between the black keys (only by a few millimeters). I have large hands and I used to be able to play very well, but in college it began to get harder and harder to get my fingers between the keys.

tokamak-teapot 6y ago
I was looking for this comment. I played the piano as a child and, as an adult, bought a well-used Clavinova as soon as I could afford it. It wasn’t long before I had to admit I had a problem with getting my fingers between the black keys. I have found some people suggesting altering playing style so that the fingers don’t play between pairs of black keys. I can’t find a way to do this that feels right at all. Another suggestion was that some pianos have slightly more space between the black keys so larger fingers can fit in the gaps. I’m hoping there is an electric piano with this larger gap.
mkl 6y ago
I have a Chromatone, which has a different key layout I think would solve that problem: https://www.chromatone.jp/ https://www.chromatone.jp/ Unfortunately, they are no longer for sale. I got mine really cheap, while they were getting rid of old stock. I have commented in detail about it in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21842632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21842632
- ngcc_hk 6y ago
  I think the movement is about standard not just one or two, a bit like 4/4 1/4 etc size of violin but not just for kids.
- a-nikolaev 6y ago
  I played Russian accordion with this type of a layout (EDIT: not the same as chromatone, which uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard ), and I think it is superior to the piano keyboard. But the piano layout seems to be the default for almost any modern digital instrument/device, so you need to play piano anyway to use any of them. And this uniformity was not a thing in the past, when people designed all sorts of "analog" instruments (violins, guitars, trumpets, etc.)

kelnos 6y ago

Huh, this is cool. I can barely reach an octave, and then not at all comfortably. Wouldn't mind narrower keys, though I assume they take some getting used to. (Then again, I'm a terrible player who never practices and wouldn't even consider calling himself a "pianist" at any level.)

exabrial 6y ago

Seems like a good place to start with this world be semi-weighed MIDI controllers. Far cheaper to make and the market could be tested to get the correct sizing and guage demand for each size

joegahona 6y ago

How widely does this exist in other instruments? It seems problematic to me to learn on one size and then have to upsize as you get older. The analogy of the running shoes is interesting, but what if people learned to shoot hoops on various basketball-rim heights? Isn't that going to be counterproductive in the long run? Also, I'm sure the people behind this initiative have thought of this, but doing this on a piano -- which is massive and expensive -- is a much different challenge than doing it on a violin or a guitar. As a snarky aside, it's always funny when a site calling for more accessibility and custom control over the interface hijacks my scrolling.

bluGill 6y ago
You can learn to switch sizes if you try. I have two keyboards, one with narrow keys (korg micro key, bought for my kids as they can't reach even a simple 5-7 chord), and I play it just fine. I even have them one on top of the other and play both at once sometimes, one each hand. it isn't hard once you practice a little. (but not my ability is barely simple kids songs so I'm not a good example)
- analog31 6y ago
  Indeed, I play double bass, two lengths of electric bass, and cello (tuned in fifths). It's remarkable how our brains and bodies can adapt.
TylerE 6y ago
Funny you cite basketball, since at various levels the 3 pt and free throw lines are at different distances
flippinburgers 6y ago
At this rate I would wager that hoop height will be under fire at some point if it isn't already.
mlyle 6y ago
> what if people learned to shoot hoops on various basketball-rim heights? Isn't that going to be counterproductive in the long run? Actually, consensus is forming around the opposite, here! Small children are almost never strong enough to shoot with proper form on a 10' hoop. If you give them an 8' hoop, they can begin practicing with proper form earlier, which is a more important factor in consistent shooting than having to adjust to a higher hoop later. e.g. https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/79/2018/03/7-8_Rules_and_Standards.pdf https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/79/20...

spekcular 6y ago

I find the most compelling argument for smaller keyboards to be the gender disparity in high level piano competitions: http://smallpianokeyboards.org/competition-results/ http://smallpianokeyboards.org/competition-results/. The short version: more women play the piano at the collegiate level and beyond than men, but they are woefully underrepresented among the winners of international piano competitions. Why? Because their hands are too small to play demanding repertoire – certain pieces are literally "out of reach" due to the large chords involved. For violin competitions, where reach is a less significant factor, there is no such gender discrepancy. For the long version, please read the link.

onlyreply 6y ago
Please, kys
jberryman 6y ago
Are these competitions behind a screen? I'm only somewhat familiar with the Can Cliburn competition, and it seemed as though it was in the open on a stage. If they aren't blind then I'd expect gender bias is a more obvious explanation (obvious because the effect that blind auditions have had in the gender make up of orchestras is obvious and dramatic)
- saulrh 6y ago
  I went looking for other data that might let us make conclusions about the situation. Here's what I found: Cayea, Danelle, and Ralph A. Manchester. "Instrument-specific rates of upper-extremity injuries in music students." Organ 26.362 (1998): 11-14. The high-injury-rate instruments (12.0 to 18.0) included the piano, guitar, and harp. Women had a higher overall injury rate thanmen (8.9 vs 5.9). Small sample sizes for some instruments (e.g. only ~20 female trumpet players) make me doubt the solidity of the results, but it looks like bigger instruments are vastly more dangerous for women to play. The piano and organ are both pretty bad, with about 10% of women reporting injuries compared to about 7.5% of men. The double bass has the largest difference in the study, with 17% women reporting injuries compared to 8% of men. I have no idea how harps compare because there were exactly zero male harpists in the sample, but female harp was tied with female double bass as highest-injury sampled instrument at 17%. Note that, as the studied population was "the students at a single institution's music major", an RSI injury this early might indicate the beginning of a chronic, career-limiting problem. I can't find any competitions for the double bass that I might be able to use to confirm the correlation between injury rate and under-representation in high-level competition. TL;DR I find it quite plausible that some instruments are objectively difficult for women to play as indicated by a higher level of upper-body injury. edit: I read some more of the site and found http://smallpianokeyboards.org/pain-injury-and-performance-quality/ http://smallpianokeyboards.org/pain-injury-and-performance-q..., which agrees with the research I did above.

emersonrsantos 6y ago

Bigger keyboards for the challenge.

amelius 6y ago

Or how about a chromatic keyboard without black keys? Wouldn't that make more sense, since transposition becomes a simple matter of shifting?

TylerE 6y ago
At that point you’d be better served by looking at one on the various 2d layouts. Those would be very difficult to implement on an acoustic piano though as they have multiple keys triggering a single note.

deleted 6y ago

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