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I Lived Through a Stupid Coup. America Is Having One Now

46 points by Balgair 6y ago

sacks2k 6y ago
I read through it until you tried to say that Donald Trump is staging coup. This just isn't true. He's using every legal option available to him to investigate oddities in an election. This is the way things should be done. What's unbelievable is that there are countless examples of first-hand accounts of voter fraud and Democrats don't want it investigated and are outright attacking anyone for even suggesting it. Governor Whitmer, for example, publicly stated that the two people that didn't want to certify the election were racist for doing so. This was after they were attacked, doxxed, and shamed for only wanting an investigation into the many allegations we have been seeing since election day. Does this sound like Democracy? It sounds like mob tactics to me. If there is no investigation, then the Democrats staged a coup and it proves all along that most people on the left don't care about justice or fairness, they only care about being right and getting power. Trump may very well have lost, but I want to ensure the future integrity of our elections.
- Fellshard 6y ago
  This is exactly right. However, Trump has been harming his case dramatically by making hyperinflated claims to the public in the process, claims that are extremely unlikely to be true, and could undermine the very trust the court cases could produce.
  - b20000 6y ago
    Trump has every right to ask for a recount, and as far as I know, nothing is final until all votes have been counted and it's decided that there was no fraud.
  - sacks2k 6y ago
    Trump can run his mouth off, but it doesn't mean there isn't voter fraud. His attorneys are the ones that are collecting evidence and will present them to the courts.
    - api 6y ago
      They have yet to present anything compelling and have lost everywhere, including in some very “red” areas.
    - hilbertseries 6y ago
      Can’t wait for this evidence that’s been promised for the last two weeks, but has yet to be delivered. Trump also claimed there was widespread voter fraud in 2016, that caused him to lose the popular vote. He was never able to produce any evidence of this, even after having a committee do an investigation.
      - noncoml 6y ago
        You are talking to someone who believes Trump when he says that he will release his tax returns. The likelihood of him producing any fraud evidence is the same as real easing his tax returns.
        hilbertseries 6y ago
        Yes, I learned to argue by reading the myth of Sisyphus.
        sacks2k 6y ago
        "You are talking to someone who believes Trump when he says that he will release his tax returns." I'm an individual, not a group. You have no idea what I believe about Trump's tax returns. I expected to have intelligent conversations/discussions here on HN, but all the half-hearted, biased responses I'm seeing, and the downvoting, tells me that it's probably not going to happen.
        noncoml 6y ago
        > I'm an individual, not a group. You have no idea what I believe about Trump's tax returns. If you tell me that you don’t believe that he will release his tax statement I will apologize. I would absolutely love to be proved wrong. Genuinely.
- dmarchand90 6y ago
  It's not doxxing when it's a public official. Also why was it that they refused to certify black communities after they already certified white communities with worse discrepancies. Also one of them was found with racist memes and Qanon conspiracy theories on their Facebook
  - sacks2k 6y ago
    When they are doxxed and their families are threatened (I saw the videos making the rounds and the tweets afterwards), it doesn't make it okay. " refused to certify black communities after they already certified white communities with worse discrepancies" Everything isn't attributed to race. You are trying to tell us the intent of these individuals without knowing what they are actually thinking or why they chose to make this decision. I suppose this is the definition of bias. "Also one of them was found with racist memes and Qanon conspiracy theories on their Facebook" Many Democrat officials still believe the Russian collusion conspiracy theory. Should we discount everything they say as well?
    - dmarchand90 6y ago
      I'll address your points in detail below. But first I am curious if you really believe that the election was 'stolen' by the Democrats. "When they are doxxed and their families are threatened (I saw the videos making the rounds and the tweets afterwards), it doesn't make it okay." Again, they are public officials so calling them by name isn't Doxxing. Secondly, there is an angry Twitter mob saying all kinds of nonsense on both sides, so I think that cancels itself out. Are you saying Trump supporters have never asked for violence at all? Maybe you need to browse thedonald.win a bit first. So let's keep it focused on what was actually stated by the politicians in question. "Everything isn't attributed to race. You are trying to tell us the intent of these individuals without knowing what they are actually thinking or why they chose to make this decision. I suppose this is the definition of bias." You haven't really answered my question. If not race, then what was the metric, exactly, that made them question the validity of these black regions when by the same metrics the councilor was so concerned about several white communities with worse numbers were certified. But sure we can give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're not racists they're just trying to block votes from the party they don't like. "Many Democrat officials still believe the Russian collusion conspiracy theory. Should we discount everything they say as well?" There's two major problems with this. 1) There was real evidence that there was a russian conspiracy. In case you forgot several members of Trump's team, including his ex lawyer got arrested for crimes linked to this! Robert Muller didn't say Trump was innocent by the way, he said a sitting president couldn't be convicted for crimes by the investigation! 2) For all their whining on social media, Hilary never refused to concede the election, and called Trump the next day. Look I'm fine if you want to say this wasn't a 'fair' election, you can even make a good argument for that. Tucker Carlson, who I really don't like, has made arguments to this. But for this to be a 'stolen' election, for the president to routinely say this without any evidence beyond affidavits is absurd.
- yalogin 6y ago
  What is the reason every media outlet is saying there is no fraud? Can you provide examples of these first case reports of fraud please?
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    Here are two to get you started. https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0 https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0 https://gellerreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/gov.uscourts.gand_.283580.6.19.pdf https://gellerreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/gov.usco...
  - sacks2k 6y ago
    The media also tried to say that dead people did not cast ballots in the election. I was able to find a dozen dead people in multiple states that requested and cast a ballot in the election. Real journalists should be curious about this and actually want to find out why. It's very odd that so many are trying to deny it or cover it up.
    - yalogin 6y ago
      That’s super interesting. What did you do with that information? Did you report it to the authorities and have them investigated and arrested? One person finding 12 cases of fraud is a huge deal and I think you would be hailed a hero and be on the news. Can you tell me what happened with your finding?
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > One person finding 12 cases of fraud is a huge deal and I think you would be hailed a hero and be on the news. Sadly this is not the case. The media has done nothing to report on this ballot harvester who was caught on tape: https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0 https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0
        yalogin 6y ago
        That just looks like a dramatic reconstrcution
bobthebuilders 6y ago
This is doomer mentality. We've had people challenging elections results since the 1800s. We've had governors lock themselves in their office and refuse to leave. We've had presidents that went on war to push their ratings up. We've endured a lot. We'll endure more.
- forgot_user1234 6y ago
  it happens slowly at first, then all at once. Y'all in US haven't seen a political turmoil. Rest of the world has and we all are just pattern matching.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  I think doomer mentality more accurately describes normalizing what is happening right now under "we've endured a lot". Yeah the US has endured a civil war too, my guess is most people aren't to keen to living through another one and booking it under "we'll endure more". This is not normal, and dysfunction does not deserve to be glorified.
- newacct583 6y ago
  Yes, but all that stuff was bad. This is bad too. The fact that the active president and governing party are FAILING to successfully use extra-legal means to stay in power following a failed election is still a bad thing. And dismissing this as "doomer mentality" is just inviting a more competent maladministration to try this again.
- uniqueid 6y ago
  We've endured a lot. We'll endure more. Maybe. Maybe not. That's why I like this article: the author's certainty that the worst will happen is wrong, but no more wrong than the certainty that things can only get so bad.
qntty 6y ago
Seems like a stretch. On the other hand, business leaders are betting on Biden: https://www.businessinsider.com/georgia-recount-done-top-ceos-were-waiting-act-against-trump-2020-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/georgia-recount-done-top-ceo... It seems like Trump is a guy who makes people's imagination go wild. Conservatives see him as their savior (he's not). Liberals see him as a fascist (also not). At the end of the day, there's not much special about him. If people wanted an authoritarian leader, Trump would be a pretty bad choice. He's bad at PR and bad at actually accomplishing things.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
“America is a shitty and immature democracy” Immature, but one of the oldest in the world. Also it seems there’s a lot of racism embedded in the article.
aazaa 6y ago
The article could be improved by focusing more on the coup in Sri Lanka. Draw closer parallels to what's happening there and in the US. Maybe throw in some links for curious readers. The links I found all talk about the US, not Sri Lanka. Instead, the article focuses too much on interpreting events in the US for the reader. That's not going to change anyone's mind at this point. For example: > What else do you call Donald Trump refusing to leave, consolidating control of the military, and spreading lies across the media? That, my friends, is just a coup. ... > refusing to leave He has not done that. He's not required to concede. He's not required to do so. Al Gore didn't concede until December 13th (after having withdrawn a previous concession). The concession custom has been observed for about a century, so he is breaking with convention but not the law. > consolidating control of the military There has been a shakeup, but the Constitution gives him the title Commander in Chief. He took office office in control of the military. Previous presidents have demonstrated time and again how ineffective congressional oversight on military deployment is. > and spreading lies across the media This has been going on for a long time now, across many administrations - D and R. I'm not trying to draw an equivalence here. What I'm saying is that the author could do a better job of illustrating the true nature of coups. Of how they start off like clown shows and end up in shambles. There is no big aha moment. Everybody just gets boiled alive as the temperature rises. The article starts out promising to reveal a new perspective on coups, and then veers off course.
xupybd 6y ago
There might not be fraud. There doesn't appear to be enough votes impacted by irregularities to turn the election, however investigating all claims of fraud will only strengthen the democracy. Let the system play this out and I think you'll find the American system is incredibly robust.
lopmotr 6y ago
> denying the President-Elect after an election. The official process is chugging along properly just as it always has. We have to wait till December for the Electoral College to make a decision. Why? Why don't they just read the news and decide based on that to appease the masses? Because robust processes aren't robust if you skip them! Plenty of people denies the last president-elect after that election too. But the system kept on working because it's stable.
- hilbertseries 6y ago
  This is not entirely accurate. The GSA had been preventing the transition team working in full, by refusing to recognize Biden as president elect.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    What makes him President-elect? The media?
    - hilbertseries 6y ago
      As the vote count currently stands he’s going to be the president. There’s no reason to think the vote totals are going to change. In 2016, Trump was also referred to as president elect at this point. Or were you very careful to correct anyone that said Trump had won in 2016 and pointed out that it wasn’t actually decided until the election was certified? This whole thing is such a farce. Trump has been claiming massive voter fraud with no evidence since 2016 (actually he also claimed it in 2012 when Obama won). He started claiming it a day after the election and has yet to produce any evidence. While every Secretary of State says there’s no evidence of massive voter fraud. And pointing this out and that trumps claims are baseless, which is all purely factual, has somehow become biased.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > As the vote count currently stands he’s going to be the president Actually the president is not chosen by the popular vote. You may not like how our democracy chooses presidents but that doesn't change facts. > There’s no reason to think the vote totals are going to change. In 2016, Trump was also referred to as president elect at this point. In 2016 the other contestant had conceded. > Or were you very careful to correct anyone that said Trump had won in 2016 and pointed out that it wasn’t actually decided until the election was certified? I'm pretty sure I asked what makes him President-elect. Do you have an answer? > Trump has been claiming massive voter fraud with no evidence since 2016 What kind of evidence would you accept? > He started claiming it a day after the election and has yet to produce any evidence. Videos of ballot fraud and sworn affidavits are evidence. > While every Secretary of State says there’s no evidence of massive voter fraud. And pointing this out and that trumps claims are baseless, which is all purely factual, has somehow become biased. The bias is insisting that there is no evidence when there is evidence.
deathanatos 6y ago
Seriously HN, why is this on the front-page? This article is pretty much raw FUD. Our system does not require that he concede the election, and his inability to bring himself to admit he's lost will not stop him from losing and will not stop power from changing hands. What court cases he has filed (and that I've followed) have been dealt with sincerely by the legal system, giving that party their right to exercise what legal recourse are available to them — and then summarily dismissing the cases for the vacuous nothing they are.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > Seriously HN, why is this on the front-page? It was flagged rapidly, so it's not. But in general my experience is that there are a lot of reactionary conservatives on HN who really, really want to discuss political content. Flagging seems to be the immune response to keep the unsavory stuff from getting an audience. But it can get a little scary in the cases where that doesn't happen. As far as whether the coup works: you're right, it's not going to work. But they're absolutely trying it, and you're actually behind on the strategy. The current thinking and pressure is aimed at getting republican election administrators and legislatures to "reject" the results of the election and select Trump electors directly. And while it's not working (yet) they've absolutely had some success with persuading a few. If they get more, then it's a coup. The Wayne county election commissioners didn't "summarily dismiss" the conspiracy theory, they're on board (though after "accidentally" certifying the result, I guess). The Michigan GOP leaders didn't "summarily dismiss" the idea of selecting electors, they literally flew to Washington yesterday to meet directly with Trump (though afterwards they issued a statement saying that they "saw no need" to take that action). That's not a coup being summarily dismissed. It's a bunch of republicans dancing on the edge to make sure they don't end up on the wrong side. If the whole party buys in, then democracy dies. And we need to be screaming about it, not whining about whether it belongs on the front page.
  - rektide 6y ago
    So many downvotes for such a genuine honest acurate statement. Typical. Thanks newacct583. :)
- 6y ago
benjohnson 6y ago
If the allegation are true, it would explain the primary win of Clinton over Sanders in California back in the previous election when they used the same system.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  yeah but the Sanders supporters prefer Biden to Trump so they aren't going to get on board with allegations of election fraud until Trump has been safely removed from the WH. This is expected because few people care about election integrity as a good in itself. They care about election integrity because when their candidate wins then they have perceived legitimacy to enact policies.
gwbas1c 6y ago
For a much more credible analysis about a potential coup in the US, please visit: https://choosedemocracy.us/ https://choosedemocracy.us/ This article, however, is one of the worst Medium articles I've read. It starts fine, but then devolves to cursing and unsubstantiated opinions. I stopped reading the article and flagged it.
bobthechef 6y ago
Sadly, this article is just one long exercise in hysteria and invective. I won't address it because the author doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Vague appears to having lived during a coup don't make him an authority. I will say, however, that, if you bother to read outside of the mainstream corporate media and sensationalist press, you get a different picture (sadly, many do not, and many allow their irrational biases and hatred for the Orange Man to eradicate any vestige of calm, measured, honest, rationally defensible thought and consideration). Specifically, not that Trump has necessarily won (though some do indeed claim that he won in a landslide), but that there are very alarming reports of voter fraud, significant enough that they could have swayed the election. If they are indeed true, then we are indeed experience a kind of coup, but one carried out by Democrats. Those who dismiss the possibility of voter fraud out of hand show their ignorance of history. It has been a serious concern in American politics since the republic was founded. Recent noteworthy examples include Bush v. Gore, and before that Lyndon Johnson (in Texas) and JFK. Anyone who isn't consumed with blinding hatred of the Orange Man knows how unprecedented the media's hatred of and obsession with Trump has been these last four years. He upset the establishment, shocked their smug complacency, and made them realize that their control of the country isn't as total as they assumed it is. This is neither an endorsement of Trump nor a condemnation, just a description of what's happened. When a powerful caste sees its power threatened, its plans frustrated, they begin to freak out. As Chomsky wrote, the press is to democratic republics what the police baton is in a dictatorship. Too many Americans, and Western Europeans, still live in a kind of fantasyland when it comes to how their governments function. They have a kind of romanticized view of government, of the state (certainly, some do have anarchistic views on the opposite extreme, but these are a small minority). Either that, or they hate the Orange Man so much that they essentially don't care if voter fraud has taken place as long as Trump is kept out of office. This is a terrible fanaticism no less fanatical than what they accuse Trump supporters of being. The presumptuous, officious way in which the Biden campaign has been carrying itself since the election, the media's arrogation of the role of declaring the victor, the categorical ridicule of even the mere asking of questions, that DESPITE there being evidence, means, motive, and opportunity of and for fraud, simply makes matter that much more suspicious. If the Biden camp were truly confident in their victory, they would cooperate and encourage investigations into these reports of voter fraud. Such acts would demonstrate to voters in the middle as well as those on the other side that they are a party of good will. It would win them major points, more than any cheap platitudes about unity and Biden being a president to all Americans. Those may feel nice, and I sympathize with a certain exhaustion with the last four years of constant media virulence, but those aren't reasons to acquiesce. By refusing to examine these reports, by dismissing them out of hand, the Democrats are doing damage by communicating to the people that the integrity of elections isn't really all that important. That we don't need to examine fraud because at the end of the day, who cares.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

46 points by Balgair 6y ago

I read through it until you tried to say that Donald Trump is staging coup. This just isn't true. He's using every legal option available to him to investigate oddities in an election. This is the way things should be done. What's unbelievable is that there are countless examples of first-hand accounts of voter fraud and Democrats don't want it investigated and are outright attacking anyone for even suggesting it. Governor Whitmer, for example, publicly stated that the two people that didn't want to certify the election were racist for doing so. This was after they were attacked, doxxed, and shamed for only wanting an investigation into the many allegations we have been seeing since election day. Does this sound like Democracy? It sounds like mob tactics to me. If there is no investigation, then the Democrats staged a coup and it proves all along that most people on the left don't care about justice or fairness, they only care about being right and getting power. Trump may very well have lost, but I want to ensure the future integrity of our elections.

Fellshard 6y ago
This is exactly right. However, Trump has been harming his case dramatically by making hyperinflated claims to the public in the process, claims that are extremely unlikely to be true, and could undermine the very trust the court cases could produce.
- b20000 6y ago
  Trump has every right to ask for a recount, and as far as I know, nothing is final until all votes have been counted and it's decided that there was no fraud.
- sacks2k 6y ago
  Trump can run his mouth off, but it doesn't mean there isn't voter fraud. His attorneys are the ones that are collecting evidence and will present them to the courts.
  - api 6y ago
    They have yet to present anything compelling and have lost everywhere, including in some very “red” areas.
  - hilbertseries 6y ago
    Can’t wait for this evidence that’s been promised for the last two weeks, but has yet to be delivered. Trump also claimed there was widespread voter fraud in 2016, that caused him to lose the popular vote. He was never able to produce any evidence of this, even after having a committee do an investigation.
    - noncoml 6y ago
      You are talking to someone who believes Trump when he says that he will release his tax returns. The likelihood of him producing any fraud evidence is the same as real easing his tax returns.
      - hilbertseries 6y ago
        Yes, I learned to argue by reading the myth of Sisyphus.
      - sacks2k 6y ago
        "You are talking to someone who believes Trump when he says that he will release his tax returns." I'm an individual, not a group. You have no idea what I believe about Trump's tax returns. I expected to have intelligent conversations/discussions here on HN, but all the half-hearted, biased responses I'm seeing, and the downvoting, tells me that it's probably not going to happen.
        noncoml 6y ago
        > I'm an individual, not a group. You have no idea what I believe about Trump's tax returns. If you tell me that you don’t believe that he will release his tax statement I will apologize. I would absolutely love to be proved wrong. Genuinely.
dmarchand90 6y ago
It's not doxxing when it's a public official. Also why was it that they refused to certify black communities after they already certified white communities with worse discrepancies. Also one of them was found with racist memes and Qanon conspiracy theories on their Facebook
- sacks2k 6y ago
  When they are doxxed and their families are threatened (I saw the videos making the rounds and the tweets afterwards), it doesn't make it okay. " refused to certify black communities after they already certified white communities with worse discrepancies" Everything isn't attributed to race. You are trying to tell us the intent of these individuals without knowing what they are actually thinking or why they chose to make this decision. I suppose this is the definition of bias. "Also one of them was found with racist memes and Qanon conspiracy theories on their Facebook" Many Democrat officials still believe the Russian collusion conspiracy theory. Should we discount everything they say as well?
  - dmarchand90 6y ago
    I'll address your points in detail below. But first I am curious if you really believe that the election was 'stolen' by the Democrats. "When they are doxxed and their families are threatened (I saw the videos making the rounds and the tweets afterwards), it doesn't make it okay." Again, they are public officials so calling them by name isn't Doxxing. Secondly, there is an angry Twitter mob saying all kinds of nonsense on both sides, so I think that cancels itself out. Are you saying Trump supporters have never asked for violence at all? Maybe you need to browse thedonald.win a bit first. So let's keep it focused on what was actually stated by the politicians in question. "Everything isn't attributed to race. You are trying to tell us the intent of these individuals without knowing what they are actually thinking or why they chose to make this decision. I suppose this is the definition of bias." You haven't really answered my question. If not race, then what was the metric, exactly, that made them question the validity of these black regions when by the same metrics the councilor was so concerned about several white communities with worse numbers were certified. But sure we can give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're not racists they're just trying to block votes from the party they don't like. "Many Democrat officials still believe the Russian collusion conspiracy theory. Should we discount everything they say as well?" There's two major problems with this. 1) There was real evidence that there was a russian conspiracy. In case you forgot several members of Trump's team, including his ex lawyer got arrested for crimes linked to this! Robert Muller didn't say Trump was innocent by the way, he said a sitting president couldn't be convicted for crimes by the investigation! 2) For all their whining on social media, Hilary never refused to concede the election, and called Trump the next day. Look I'm fine if you want to say this wasn't a 'fair' election, you can even make a good argument for that. Tucker Carlson, who I really don't like, has made arguments to this. But for this to be a 'stolen' election, for the president to routinely say this without any evidence beyond affidavits is absurd.
yalogin 6y ago
What is the reason every media outlet is saying there is no fraud? Can you provide examples of these first case reports of fraud please?
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  Here are two to get you started. https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0 https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0 https://gellerreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/gov.uscourts.gand_.283580.6.19.pdf https://gellerreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/gov.usco...
- sacks2k 6y ago
  The media also tried to say that dead people did not cast ballots in the election. I was able to find a dozen dead people in multiple states that requested and cast a ballot in the election. Real journalists should be curious about this and actually want to find out why. It's very odd that so many are trying to deny it or cover it up.
  - yalogin 6y ago
    That’s super interesting. What did you do with that information? Did you report it to the authorities and have them investigated and arrested? One person finding 12 cases of fraud is a huge deal and I think you would be hailed a hero and be on the news. Can you tell me what happened with your finding?
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > One person finding 12 cases of fraud is a huge deal and I think you would be hailed a hero and be on the news. Sadly this is not the case. The media has done nothing to report on this ballot harvester who was caught on tape: https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0 https://youtu.be/mgPJyEfG0C0
      - yalogin 6y ago
        That just looks like a dramatic reconstrcution

bobthebuilders 6y ago

This is doomer mentality. We've had people challenging elections results since the 1800s. We've had governors lock themselves in their office and refuse to leave. We've had presidents that went on war to push their ratings up. We've endured a lot. We'll endure more.

forgot_user1234 6y ago
it happens slowly at first, then all at once. Y'all in US haven't seen a political turmoil. Rest of the world has and we all are just pattern matching.
Barrin92 6y ago
I think doomer mentality more accurately describes normalizing what is happening right now under "we've endured a lot". Yeah the US has endured a civil war too, my guess is most people aren't to keen to living through another one and booking it under "we'll endure more". This is not normal, and dysfunction does not deserve to be glorified.
newacct583 6y ago
Yes, but all that stuff was bad. This is bad too. The fact that the active president and governing party are FAILING to successfully use extra-legal means to stay in power following a failed election is still a bad thing. And dismissing this as "doomer mentality" is just inviting a more competent maladministration to try this again.
uniqueid 6y ago
We've endured a lot. We'll endure more. Maybe. Maybe not. That's why I like this article: the author's certainty that the worst will happen is wrong, but no more wrong than the certainty that things can only get so bad.

qntty 6y ago

Seems like a stretch. On the other hand, business leaders are betting on Biden: https://www.businessinsider.com/georgia-recount-done-top-ceos-were-waiting-act-against-trump-2020-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/georgia-recount-done-top-ceo... It seems like Trump is a guy who makes people's imagination go wild. Conservatives see him as their savior (he's not). Liberals see him as a fascist (also not). At the end of the day, there's not much special about him. If people wanted an authoritarian leader, Trump would be a pretty bad choice. He's bad at PR and bad at actually accomplishing things.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

“America is a shitty and immature democracy” Immature, but one of the oldest in the world. Also it seems there’s a lot of racism embedded in the article.

aazaa 6y ago

The article could be improved by focusing more on the coup in Sri Lanka. Draw closer parallels to what's happening there and in the US. Maybe throw in some links for curious readers. The links I found all talk about the US, not Sri Lanka. Instead, the article focuses too much on interpreting events in the US for the reader. That's not going to change anyone's mind at this point. For example: > What else do you call Donald Trump refusing to leave, consolidating control of the military, and spreading lies across the media? That, my friends, is just a coup. ... > refusing to leave He has not done that. He's not required to concede. He's not required to do so. Al Gore didn't concede until December 13th (after having withdrawn a previous concession). The concession custom has been observed for about a century, so he is breaking with convention but not the law. > consolidating control of the military There has been a shakeup, but the Constitution gives him the title Commander in Chief. He took office office in control of the military. Previous presidents have demonstrated time and again how ineffective congressional oversight on military deployment is. > and spreading lies across the media This has been going on for a long time now, across many administrations - D and R. I'm not trying to draw an equivalence here. What I'm saying is that the author could do a better job of illustrating the true nature of coups. Of how they start off like clown shows and end up in shambles. There is no big aha moment. Everybody just gets boiled alive as the temperature rises. The article starts out promising to reveal a new perspective on coups, and then veers off course.

xupybd 6y ago

There might not be fraud. There doesn't appear to be enough votes impacted by irregularities to turn the election, however investigating all claims of fraud will only strengthen the democracy. Let the system play this out and I think you'll find the American system is incredibly robust.

lopmotr 6y ago

> denying the President-Elect after an election. The official process is chugging along properly just as it always has. We have to wait till December for the Electoral College to make a decision. Why? Why don't they just read the news and decide based on that to appease the masses? Because robust processes aren't robust if you skip them! Plenty of people denies the last president-elect after that election too. But the system kept on working because it's stable.

hilbertseries 6y ago
This is not entirely accurate. The GSA had been preventing the transition team working in full, by refusing to recognize Biden as president elect.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  What makes him President-elect? The media?
  - hilbertseries 6y ago
    As the vote count currently stands he’s going to be the president. There’s no reason to think the vote totals are going to change. In 2016, Trump was also referred to as president elect at this point. Or were you very careful to correct anyone that said Trump had won in 2016 and pointed out that it wasn’t actually decided until the election was certified? This whole thing is such a farce. Trump has been claiming massive voter fraud with no evidence since 2016 (actually he also claimed it in 2012 when Obama won). He started claiming it a day after the election and has yet to produce any evidence. While every Secretary of State says there’s no evidence of massive voter fraud. And pointing this out and that trumps claims are baseless, which is all purely factual, has somehow become biased.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > As the vote count currently stands he’s going to be the president Actually the president is not chosen by the popular vote. You may not like how our democracy chooses presidents but that doesn't change facts. > There’s no reason to think the vote totals are going to change. In 2016, Trump was also referred to as president elect at this point. In 2016 the other contestant had conceded. > Or were you very careful to correct anyone that said Trump had won in 2016 and pointed out that it wasn’t actually decided until the election was certified? I'm pretty sure I asked what makes him President-elect. Do you have an answer? > Trump has been claiming massive voter fraud with no evidence since 2016 What kind of evidence would you accept? > He started claiming it a day after the election and has yet to produce any evidence. Videos of ballot fraud and sworn affidavits are evidence. > While every Secretary of State says there’s no evidence of massive voter fraud. And pointing this out and that trumps claims are baseless, which is all purely factual, has somehow become biased. The bias is insisting that there is no evidence when there is evidence.

deathanatos 6y ago

Seriously HN, why is this on the front-page? This article is pretty much raw FUD. Our system does not require that he concede the election, and his inability to bring himself to admit he's lost will not stop him from losing and will not stop power from changing hands. What court cases he has filed (and that I've followed) have been dealt with sincerely by the legal system, giving that party their right to exercise what legal recourse are available to them — and then summarily dismissing the cases for the vacuous nothing they are.

newacct583 6y ago
> Seriously HN, why is this on the front-page? It was flagged rapidly, so it's not. But in general my experience is that there are a lot of reactionary conservatives on HN who really, really want to discuss political content. Flagging seems to be the immune response to keep the unsavory stuff from getting an audience. But it can get a little scary in the cases where that doesn't happen. As far as whether the coup works: you're right, it's not going to work. But they're absolutely trying it, and you're actually behind on the strategy. The current thinking and pressure is aimed at getting republican election administrators and legislatures to "reject" the results of the election and select Trump electors directly. And while it's not working (yet) they've absolutely had some success with persuading a few. If they get more, then it's a coup. The Wayne county election commissioners didn't "summarily dismiss" the conspiracy theory, they're on board (though after "accidentally" certifying the result, I guess). The Michigan GOP leaders didn't "summarily dismiss" the idea of selecting electors, they literally flew to Washington yesterday to meet directly with Trump (though afterwards they issued a statement saying that they "saw no need" to take that action). That's not a coup being summarily dismissed. It's a bunch of republicans dancing on the edge to make sure they don't end up on the wrong side. If the whole party buys in, then democracy dies. And we need to be screaming about it, not whining about whether it belongs on the front page.
- rektide 6y ago
  So many downvotes for such a genuine honest acurate statement. Typical. Thanks newacct583. :)
6y ago

benjohnson 6y ago

If the allegation are true, it would explain the primary win of Clinton over Sanders in California back in the previous election when they used the same system.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
yeah but the Sanders supporters prefer Biden to Trump so they aren't going to get on board with allegations of election fraud until Trump has been safely removed from the WH. This is expected because few people care about election integrity as a good in itself. They care about election integrity because when their candidate wins then they have perceived legitimacy to enact policies.

gwbas1c 6y ago

For a much more credible analysis about a potential coup in the US, please visit: https://choosedemocracy.us/ https://choosedemocracy.us/ This article, however, is one of the worst Medium articles I've read. It starts fine, but then devolves to cursing and unsubstantiated opinions. I stopped reading the article and flagged it.

bobthechef 6y ago

Sadly, this article is just one long exercise in hysteria and invective. I won't address it because the author doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Vague appears to having lived during a coup don't make him an authority. I will say, however, that, if you bother to read outside of the mainstream corporate media and sensationalist press, you get a different picture (sadly, many do not, and many allow their irrational biases and hatred for the Orange Man to eradicate any vestige of calm, measured, honest, rationally defensible thought and consideration). Specifically, not that Trump has necessarily won (though some do indeed claim that he won in a landslide), but that there are very alarming reports of voter fraud, significant enough that they could have swayed the election. If they are indeed true, then we are indeed experience a kind of coup, but one carried out by Democrats. Those who dismiss the possibility of voter fraud out of hand show their ignorance of history. It has been a serious concern in American politics since the republic was founded. Recent noteworthy examples include Bush v. Gore, and before that Lyndon Johnson (in Texas) and JFK. Anyone who isn't consumed with blinding hatred of the Orange Man knows how unprecedented the media's hatred of and obsession with Trump has been these last four years. He upset the establishment, shocked their smug complacency, and made them realize that their control of the country isn't as total as they assumed it is. This is neither an endorsement of Trump nor a condemnation, just a description of what's happened. When a powerful caste sees its power threatened, its plans frustrated, they begin to freak out. As Chomsky wrote, the press is to democratic republics what the police baton is in a dictatorship. Too many Americans, and Western Europeans, still live in a kind of fantasyland when it comes to how their governments function. They have a kind of romanticized view of government, of the state (certainly, some do have anarchistic views on the opposite extreme, but these are a small minority). Either that, or they hate the Orange Man so much that they essentially don't care if voter fraud has taken place as long as Trump is kept out of office. This is a terrible fanaticism no less fanatical than what they accuse Trump supporters of being. The presumptuous, officious way in which the Biden campaign has been carrying itself since the election, the media's arrogation of the role of declaring the victor, the categorical ridicule of even the mere asking of questions, that DESPITE there being evidence, means, motive, and opportunity of and for fraud, simply makes matter that much more suspicious. If the Biden camp were truly confident in their victory, they would cooperate and encourage investigations into these reports of voter fraud. Such acts would demonstrate to voters in the middle as well as those on the other side that they are a party of good will. It would win them major points, more than any cheap platitudes about unity and Biden being a president to all Americans. Those may feel nice, and I sympathize with a certain exhaustion with the last four years of constant media virulence, but those aren't reasons to acquiesce. By refusing to examine these reports, by dismissing them out of hand, the Democrats are doing damage by communicating to the people that the integrity of elections isn't really all that important. That we don't need to examine fraud because at the end of the day, who cares.

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