5 ms·

Learning To Drive a Stick Shift: Why Programmers Should Know C/C++

12 points by dnaquin 18y ago

maryrosecook 18y ago
The simile is imperfect. Driving a manual car, rather than an automatic, teaches you nothing about cars, possibly bar the fact that they have gears. Even that is tenuous: the interaction between the clutch, stick and accelerator is a very abstracted interface to the actual drive mechanism of a car. Manually changing gear is just an extra dexterity skill to learn. And the opinion is out of date. The "learning x will make you a better programmer" argument has been made before. However, last time, x was Lisp. This makes sense, because in that case you're sacrificing performance to gain better tools to problem solve. But, in this article, the argument is that learning C++ teaches you about computing basics - memory allocation, storage, retrieval etc. But these things just aren't that relevant anymore. Problem solving tools are generally useful. Technical details are specifically useful, and thus less enriching.
- akd 18y ago
  Driving a stick shift well teaches you not only that cars have gears, but that the power output by an engine depends on RPM, that your car has synchronizers and that you can reduce the wear on them, etc.
  - borud 18y ago
    I live in Norway. Most people here drive stick-shifts. I can guarantee you that the vast majority of people driving stick-shifts have no idea what synchro rings are, nor would they be able to point them out if you cracked a gearbox open and told them to point them out. So yes, the simile is flawed. As for the usefulness of learning C or C++, I do think it is useful as a learning exercise. As would assembly programming be. I have met developers who considered themselves "experienced" who are unable to estimate memory requirements for simple data structures. I've had people tell me that pointers are "about one byte" and people who insist that the most compact way to store a boolean value is as an int value.
    - manvsmachine 18y ago
      Note that he said well. Yes, you can drive a stick to work and the grocery store without learning anything significant about it at all, just like you can write "Hello World" programs in C++ without really knowing anything about pointers, dynamic mem allocation, etc. But in both cases, to be able to do anything significant, you'd need to learn more than the absolute basics.
tokipin 18y ago
funny. i helped a friend of mine recently with their C++ homework. in their school C++ is the introductory programming class. i likened it to trying to drive a manual car up and down san francisco without first learning to manage the wheel apparently it's a weeder course
tptacek 18y ago
Love the metaphor. But people said the same thing about learning assembly, and assembly is inessential.
- hugh 18y ago
  Inessential, yes. But I'm pretty sure that there are cases where knowing Assembly makes you a better C programmer. It lets you understand, for instance, why accessing the elements of an array in one order is faster than in another order. Or something. I don't know, because I don't know Assembly. :( But I'm pretty sure that if I did I might be a slightly better C/C++/Fortran programmer than I am.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    Learning assembly actually probably isn't going to teach you that either, because the reason one access ordering is beating another is probably due to the cache, and that's microarchitectural. Not to be, you know, pedantic about it or anything. I liked your response. =)
    - hugh 18y ago
      Ah, well there you go. If I knew Assembly I'd know have known that knowing Assembly wouldn't have helped me. Either way, it's apparently a useful skill that I lack.
deepster 18y ago
In freshman science labs, students often repeat classic experiments from the past. Even if the experiments are outdated, the idea is to learn techniques and methodologies that are relevant even today. I grant you the simile is imperfect, but I'm a firm believer that learning C/C++ can make you better.
newt0311 18y ago
C yes, C++ definitely not. C will help because it will introduce people to how things are actually stored in memory and because quite a few high level tools are implemented in C. C++ will just confuse the learner with excessive syntax.
- dnaquin 18y ago
  yes. i've come to the conclusion not that learning c is helpful but that writing malloc is helpful. i'm eternally grateful that was assigned as a project my sophomore year.
  - rw 18y ago
    Could you provide details on what the project requirements were? I'm interested in doing a similar exercise.
    - oostevo 18y ago
      _Tons_ of computer systems courses are taught out of the same book from CMU: _Computer Systems: A Programmer's Perspective_. You can search for "malloc lab" and find tons of copies of the assignment (with only the instructor names and course numbers changed), but here's one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f02/L6/malloclab.pdf http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f02/L6/mal...
    - dnaquin 18y ago
      mine was http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~comp320/2007/assignments/malloc/malloc.pdf http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~comp320/2007/assignments/malloc/.... or something similar a handful of years prior.
- dhotson 18y ago
  I generally agree, C comes in really useful in a lot of places. It's certainly the best nuts-and-bolts language. Although at the same time, I find that C++ can be quite useful if you are disciplined in what parts of it you use. I think it's great that you get some decent data structures (Standard Template Library) out of the box.
far33d 18y ago
I am so sick of people mixing up C and C++ when making this argument. I can think of thousands of reasons to use C. C is much like learning to drive a stickshift. C++ is an utterly broken language. It's just an exercise in bad compiler errors, strange and inconsistent language constructs, and strange conventions and boilerplate you need to follow to produce correct code.
- kingkongrevenge 18y ago
  Bollocks. C++ is a way to achieve everything C does with a fraction of the code and greater safety.
  - qwph 18y ago
    Sure, if you know (to pick just one example) what a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor is, then yes, you're probably right to choose C++ over C. (http://amalp.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-is-protected-abstract-virtual-base.html http://amalp.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-is-protected-abstract...)
    - timr 18y ago
      "protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor" That's a troll example, designed to be maximally unreadable. The first four words refer to the class, and the last four refer to the function; moreover, one of the words in the former is implied by the latter. So, when you munge it all together, and include more words than necessary, then yeah, it sounds complicated. Thing is, nobody actually does that, unless they're writing articles that bash C++. (In this case, you'd say that you have a protected base class, whose destructor is pure virtual and private. The fact that the base class is declared "virtual" is of no consequence to the destructor.) There's no doubt that C++ is a complicated language, but if you're going to criticize it, at least reach for something that's a bit more insightful than "you can obfuscate your code!"
      - qwph 18y ago
aggieben 18y ago
Can we please stop calling these two languages C/C++? I cringe every time I see it.
- coffeeaddicted 18y ago
  Nowadays we should certainly use C/C++/D.
code_devil 18y ago
I think its handy to have a start in the programming world with C or C++. It being your first language, you will definitely have a good grasp of pointers, memory etc (as they are closer to the machine). Infact, I had taken an assembly language class(sopho/junior year) as well in school where we had to sometimes hand compile an Instruction to Binary. I thought it was really cool to actually see a PSHA (Push register AR) convert to say 1011 1001 and how it triggers the gates in a microprocessor. I hardly use assembly in work or personal projects, but knowing all these memory saving techniques definitely help you in writing good code in Higher Language Languages.
dejb 18y ago
Understanding the algorithms in your code, both the ones you wrote and the ones that the the compiler/interpreter are adding, is the useful thing in my view. In as far as C forces you to explicitly deal with many of these issues manually it would help with your understanding of this. Usually however the difference in complexity (both space and time) between the algorithm you think you are using and the one the computer is using constant or at worst Log(n) which doesn't justify delving into the lower levels such as C or machine code.

12 points by dnaquin 18y ago

The simile is imperfect. Driving a manual car, rather than an automatic, teaches you nothing about cars, possibly bar the fact that they have gears. Even that is tenuous: the interaction between the clutch, stick and accelerator is a very abstracted interface to the actual drive mechanism of a car. Manually changing gear is just an extra dexterity skill to learn. And the opinion is out of date. The "learning x will make you a better programmer" argument has been made before. However, last time, x was Lisp. This makes sense, because in that case you're sacrificing performance to gain better tools to problem solve. But, in this article, the argument is that learning C++ teaches you about computing basics - memory allocation, storage, retrieval etc. But these things just aren't that relevant anymore. Problem solving tools are generally useful. Technical details are specifically useful, and thus less enriching.

akd 18y ago
Driving a stick shift well teaches you not only that cars have gears, but that the power output by an engine depends on RPM, that your car has synchronizers and that you can reduce the wear on them, etc.
- borud 18y ago
  I live in Norway. Most people here drive stick-shifts. I can guarantee you that the vast majority of people driving stick-shifts have no idea what synchro rings are, nor would they be able to point them out if you cracked a gearbox open and told them to point them out. So yes, the simile is flawed. As for the usefulness of learning C or C++, I do think it is useful as a learning exercise. As would assembly programming be. I have met developers who considered themselves "experienced" who are unable to estimate memory requirements for simple data structures. I've had people tell me that pointers are "about one byte" and people who insist that the most compact way to store a boolean value is as an int value.
  - manvsmachine 18y ago
    Note that he said well. Yes, you can drive a stick to work and the grocery store without learning anything significant about it at all, just like you can write "Hello World" programs in C++ without really knowing anything about pointers, dynamic mem allocation, etc. But in both cases, to be able to do anything significant, you'd need to learn more than the absolute basics.

tokipin 18y ago

funny. i helped a friend of mine recently with their C++ homework. in their school C++ is the introductory programming class. i likened it to trying to drive a manual car up and down san francisco without first learning to manage the wheel apparently it's a weeder course

tptacek 18y ago

Love the metaphor. But people said the same thing about learning assembly, and assembly is inessential.

hugh 18y ago
Inessential, yes. But I'm pretty sure that there are cases where knowing Assembly makes you a better C programmer. It lets you understand, for instance, why accessing the elements of an array in one order is faster than in another order. Or something. I don't know, because I don't know Assembly. :( But I'm pretty sure that if I did I might be a slightly better C/C++/Fortran programmer than I am.
- tptacek 18y ago
  Learning assembly actually probably isn't going to teach you that either, because the reason one access ordering is beating another is probably due to the cache, and that's microarchitectural. Not to be, you know, pedantic about it or anything. I liked your response. =)
  - hugh 18y ago
    Ah, well there you go. If I knew Assembly I'd know have known that knowing Assembly wouldn't have helped me. Either way, it's apparently a useful skill that I lack.

deepster 18y ago

In freshman science labs, students often repeat classic experiments from the past. Even if the experiments are outdated, the idea is to learn techniques and methodologies that are relevant even today. I grant you the simile is imperfect, but I'm a firm believer that learning C/C++ can make you better.

newt0311 18y ago

C yes, C++ definitely not. C will help because it will introduce people to how things are actually stored in memory and because quite a few high level tools are implemented in C. C++ will just confuse the learner with excessive syntax.

dnaquin 18y ago
yes. i've come to the conclusion not that learning c is helpful but that writing malloc is helpful. i'm eternally grateful that was assigned as a project my sophomore year.
- rw 18y ago
  Could you provide details on what the project requirements were? I'm interested in doing a similar exercise.
  - oostevo 18y ago
    _Tons_ of computer systems courses are taught out of the same book from CMU: _Computer Systems: A Programmer's Perspective_. You can search for "malloc lab" and find tons of copies of the assignment (with only the instructor names and course numbers changed), but here's one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f02/L6/malloclab.pdf http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f02/L6/mal...
  - dnaquin 18y ago
    mine was http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~comp320/2007/assignments/malloc/malloc.pdf http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~comp320/2007/assignments/malloc/.... or something similar a handful of years prior.
dhotson 18y ago
I generally agree, C comes in really useful in a lot of places. It's certainly the best nuts-and-bolts language. Although at the same time, I find that C++ can be quite useful if you are disciplined in what parts of it you use. I think it's great that you get some decent data structures (Standard Template Library) out of the box.

far33d 18y ago

I am so sick of people mixing up C and C++ when making this argument. I can think of thousands of reasons to use C. C is much like learning to drive a stickshift. C++ is an utterly broken language. It's just an exercise in bad compiler errors, strange and inconsistent language constructs, and strange conventions and boilerplate you need to follow to produce correct code.

kingkongrevenge 18y ago
Bollocks. C++ is a way to achieve everything C does with a fraction of the code and greater safety.
- qwph 18y ago
  Sure, if you know (to pick just one example) what a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor is, then yes, you're probably right to choose C++ over C. (http://amalp.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-is-protected-abstract-virtual-base.html http://amalp.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-is-protected-abstract...)
  - timr 18y ago
    "protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor" That's a troll example, designed to be maximally unreadable. The first four words refer to the class, and the last four refer to the function; moreover, one of the words in the former is implied by the latter. So, when you munge it all together, and include more words than necessary, then yeah, it sounds complicated. Thing is, nobody actually does that, unless they're writing articles that bash C++. (In this case, you'd say that you have a protected base class, whose destructor is pure virtual and private. The fact that the base class is declared "virtual" is of no consequence to the destructor.) There's no doubt that C++ is a complicated language, but if you're going to criticize it, at least reach for something that's a bit more insightful than "you can obfuscate your code!"
    - qwph 18y ago

aggieben 18y ago

Can we please stop calling these two languages C/C++? I cringe every time I see it.

coffeeaddicted 18y ago
Nowadays we should certainly use C/C++/D.

code_devil 18y ago

I think its handy to have a start in the programming world with C or C++. It being your first language, you will definitely have a good grasp of pointers, memory etc (as they are closer to the machine). Infact, I had taken an assembly language class(sopho/junior year) as well in school where we had to sometimes hand compile an Instruction to Binary. I thought it was really cool to actually see a PSHA (Push register AR) convert to say 1011 1001 and how it triggers the gates in a microprocessor. I hardly use assembly in work or personal projects, but knowing all these memory saving techniques definitely help you in writing good code in Higher Language Languages.

dejb 18y ago

Understanding the algorithms in your code, both the ones you wrote and the ones that the the compiler/interpreter are adding, is the useful thing in my view. In as far as C forces you to explicitly deal with many of these issues manually it would help with your understanding of this. Usually however the difference in complexity (both space and time) between the algorithm you think you are using and the one the computer is using constant or at worst Log(n) which doesn't justify delving into the lower levels such as C or machine code.