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Maybe. But evvvveryone spies on everyone, except those who cannot muster the resources to do so. It is entirely expected, by allies and enemies alike. Setting

Maybe. But evvvveryone spies on everyone, except those who cannot muster the resources to do so. It is entirely expected, by allies and enemies alike. Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. Geopolitics is not for nice people.

cambalache 6y ago
I am sorry but for me there is a difference between, let's spy those Iranians to see what they're up to and, spy that Japanese company to steal secrets for its American competitor. > Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. OK, cool, but this can be applied then to not only spying, this can be used to justify ANYTHING done by a government.
- Pet_Ant 6y ago
  >> Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. > OK, cool, but this can be applied then to not only spying, this can be used to justify ANYTHING done by a government. Apply that logic to police forces and you get the situation we are in now.
- nyolfen 6y ago
  > spy that Japanese company to steal secrets for its American competitor. i don't see any indication that anything like that happened
  - cambalache 6y ago
    I am so happy you are healthy after being 10 years in coma https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use-economic-espionage-benefit-american-corporations/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use...
    - BalinKing 6y ago
      It’s worth noting that the article only references a leaked memo for a potential plan for the future, rather than concretely describing current activities. Not to say you’re necessarily wrong, but that article isn’t the strongest evidence IMO.
    - elefanten 6y ago
      That article proves the opposite point, despite the intense message-warping attempted. The report in question is a hypothetical "what if" scenario analysis (one of many) that outlines one possible strategy to address a future where US corporate innovation is not in the top tier. It's not real and it's speculative about the medium-to-long term future. Despite falling over itself to try to imply the US might actually be guilty of trade secret theft for corporations... it fails to provide a single example.
      - cambalache 6y ago
        Yeah, you are right I am sure the NSA/CIA will let us know when they decide to do it.
        jonnybgood 6y ago
        In all the leaked documents is there any indication, even the slightest, such a thing is being done?
        nyolfen 6y ago
        I am easily as aware of the activities of US intelligence SIGINT programs as nearly any civilian on this site, and just as reflexively critical of them as you would expect of a HN poster (my interest stems from my opposition), but I have never seen any indication of industrial espionage on behalf of American businesses à la China in at least the post-Church committee period. If you make a strong claim, you should be able to support it with evidence.
absolutelyrad 6y ago
> Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake It seems like we need moral people in leadership positions around world the at the top who don't care about game theory. Game theory is a curse that needs to be eliminated. Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. The biggest impediment to trust is non trustworthy people at top. Geopolitics IS for nice people, we just need to make sure nice people are involved in geopolitics and make it to the top. I know people with power who have been absolutely moral despite no oversight. The could've given their children or themselves so much benefit but they did everything for collective good of everyone. People like that exist, but they also prefer hanging out with people like them. Not opportunists. Humans win collectively with cooperation. The other option is going backwards and tribal.
- seppin 6y ago
  > Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. Isn't that the point? We all would be better off working together, but that's not in our nature to do so.
- elefanten 6y ago
  "we just need to make sure nice people are involved in geopolitics and make it to the top" Those are the hard problems in your prescription. -No easy way to test and identify (reliably and at scale) for trustworthiness. -Not all nice/trustworthy people stay that way over time, especially for long periods of time and as their opportunities/environment/outlook change. -Notions of trustworthiness vary across people and peoples. -Positions/nodes of power attract people who want power -- trustworthy or not. Often not.
- airstrike 6y ago
  > Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. The problem is the prisoners didn't put themselves in prison – they find themselves there as a consequence of international politics and must play the game to the best of their abilities
fakedang 6y ago
Tbh the USA has some agreements exclusively with the UAE and Israel that they don't spy on them and stuff like that. They just write out "monitoring reports" from their embassies.
- seppin 6y ago
  The US 100% spies on Israel, and Israel often has the most amount of foreign spies in DC/SF outside of China and Russia.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    I don't know about the US spying on Israel, but Israel and the UAE actively spy on the US, and this arrangement is pretty much allowed. I do know that US embassies in both places "monitor" their host countries, which is significantly different from spying and intercepting comms.
    - seppin 6y ago
      So NSA has an algorithm to not capture Israeli communications, or if it does automatically deletes anything with a "Cohen" surname? I don't think what you are saying is even technically possible ("we spy on everyone except this small country"). Everyone spies on everyone.
      - fakedang 6y ago
        Okay, my bad. So the USA does intercept network traffic and communications with them but does not have HUMINT against them. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-emirates-spying-insight-idUSKCN1VG0V3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-emirates-spying-insig... So the NSA monitors the UAE comms, but the CIA does not.
        seppin 6y ago
        > does not have HUMINT against them I mean, perhaps not on the ground in Israel (which amounts to a small technicality). They still keep tabs on Israel activity everywhere else. Allies in general don't mind being spied on, as long as that intel is shared. For example, German security forces had no idea about the Hamburg cell plotting 9/11 in their country. They would very much wanted a tip off, even from an allied spy agency.
inquirerofsorts 6y ago
> But evvvveryone spies on everyone The NSA has a budget bigger than entire countries economic output. Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Not everyone breaks their own laws constantly to the same extent. Not everyone hides behind some bullshit moral argument to justify their actions to same extent. The rot is real. They now have more power than any elected official including the President and repeatedly lie under sworn oath. These people are no longer public servants they are public masters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0
- adventured 6y ago
  > The NSA has a budget bigger than entire countries economic output. Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Very few countries have vast global interests, you can count them on one hand. Of course the US has extensive global spying efforts and of course its spying activities do not compare to smaller nations, nations with smaller economies, nations with a fraction of the military responsibilities that the US has, and so on. The US doesn't have any interest in what direction allies and enemies go with their military hardware, such that espionage would be warranted to know in advance if at all possible? Is that a joke? Macron has been saying variations of this: "Europe can no longer rely on the United States for its security" - for the past several years (pushing for his pet European defense force idea). Do you know what that means? That's one of the world's most powerful nations openly admitting Europe presently depends on the US for its security. That has been true for over seven decades now. That's a massive responsibility, and the same is true for the US in Asia. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand all depend on the US for their security in one form or another (against China specifically and going forward in particular, as China will grow far more powerful and threatening). Numerous other nations in Asia will join that list, eg Vietnam will come to depend on the US as a military hedge against China. Now kindly point out all the other various nations that have similar global responsibilities on their shoulders.
- thereisnospork 6y ago
  > Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Then good for the NSA, spying is their job, for the advancement of American interests[0]. [0] The point of 'playing' international politics - the advancement of one's country's interests.
satisfaction 6y ago
Thanks for saying this. In one case we set a moral example by agreeing to let China and Co. sell us cheap disposable goods with the explicit goal of lifting their farming class out of poverty. We did this at the expense of millions upon millions of Americans and their descendants. It's a real shame that neither political party can agree on a set of actions to reverse that trend.
vinalk 6y ago
Typical response. Everyone does it so it’s fine.
- seppin 6y ago
  No no, everyone does it so there is no point in criticizing one and not the other.
- adventured 6y ago
  Everyone doesn't do it because they can't and it it's still more than fine. The US is the world's sole military superpower and post WW2 has been singularly responsible for the world being the safest it has been in recorded history, both in terms of large wars (including large powers going to war with eachother) and weaker nations getting annexed by stronger powers (a now rare event and historically common). If North Korea wants to invade and annex South Korea, they'd have to go through the US. If China wants to take territory from Japan, they have to go through the US (ask Biden, he just confirmed that for Japan, to their delight). If China wants Taiwan, they're afraid they'd have to go through the US (or they'd have already taken it). If Russia wants the Baltics, a chunk of Finland, part of Poland, or Romania's Black Sea territory, it has to go through the US. Who else provides that blanket for the world? The US should be spying on what everyone is doing militarily, without exception.
Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
I think the problem is that the sanctity of the 5-Eyes data-sharing was abused. While what you say is both true and also valid, the promises offered were (excuse the phrase) ass-raped by the US and extremely one sided. Sure, there was a great deal of naivety on the part of the European Nations that were lining up to share the Great Firehose (As you say, 'If you could, Why wouldn't you?'). It is also true that there was a certain amount of 'beers, bribes & hoe's for the bros' involved but I honestly don't think that anyone in Europe ever truly considered that any intel gathered would be used by the US in the way it was.

cambalache 6y ago

I am sorry but for me there is a difference between, let's spy those Iranians to see what they're up to and, spy that Japanese company to steal secrets for its American competitor. > Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. OK, cool, but this can be applied then to not only spying, this can be used to justify ANYTHING done by a government.

Pet_Ant 6y ago
>> Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. > OK, cool, but this can be applied then to not only spying, this can be used to justify ANYTHING done by a government. Apply that logic to police forces and you get the situation we are in now.
nyolfen 6y ago
> spy that Japanese company to steal secrets for its American competitor. i don't see any indication that anything like that happened
- cambalache 6y ago
  I am so happy you are healthy after being 10 years in coma https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use-economic-espionage-benefit-american-corporations/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use...
  - BalinKing 6y ago
    It’s worth noting that the article only references a leaked memo for a potential plan for the future, rather than concretely describing current activities. Not to say you’re necessarily wrong, but that article isn’t the strongest evidence IMO.
  - elefanten 6y ago
    That article proves the opposite point, despite the intense message-warping attempted. The report in question is a hypothetical "what if" scenario analysis (one of many) that outlines one possible strategy to address a future where US corporate innovation is not in the top tier. It's not real and it's speculative about the medium-to-long term future. Despite falling over itself to try to imply the US might actually be guilty of trade secret theft for corporations... it fails to provide a single example.
    - cambalache 6y ago
      Yeah, you are right I am sure the NSA/CIA will let us know when they decide to do it.
      - jonnybgood 6y ago
        In all the leaked documents is there any indication, even the slightest, such a thing is being done?
      - nyolfen 6y ago
        I am easily as aware of the activities of US intelligence SIGINT programs as nearly any civilian on this site, and just as reflexively critical of them as you would expect of a HN poster (my interest stems from my opposition), but I have never seen any indication of industrial espionage on behalf of American businesses à la China in at least the post-Church committee period. If you make a strong claim, you should be able to support it with evidence.

absolutelyrad 6y ago

> Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake It seems like we need moral people in leadership positions around world the at the top who don't care about game theory. Game theory is a curse that needs to be eliminated. Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. The biggest impediment to trust is non trustworthy people at top. Geopolitics IS for nice people, we just need to make sure nice people are involved in geopolitics and make it to the top. I know people with power who have been absolutely moral despite no oversight. The could've given their children or themselves so much benefit but they did everything for collective good of everyone. People like that exist, but they also prefer hanging out with people like them. Not opportunists. Humans win collectively with cooperation. The other option is going backwards and tribal.

seppin 6y ago
> Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. Isn't that the point? We all would be better off working together, but that's not in our nature to do so.
elefanten 6y ago
"we just need to make sure nice people are involved in geopolitics and make it to the top" Those are the hard problems in your prescription. -No easy way to test and identify (reliably and at scale) for trustworthiness. -Not all nice/trustworthy people stay that way over time, especially for long periods of time and as their opportunities/environment/outlook change. -Notions of trustworthiness vary across people and peoples. -Positions/nodes of power attract people who want power -- trustworthy or not. Often not.
airstrike 6y ago
> Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. The problem is the prisoners didn't put themselves in prison – they find themselves there as a consequence of international politics and must play the game to the best of their abilities

fakedang 6y ago

Tbh the USA has some agreements exclusively with the UAE and Israel that they don't spy on them and stuff like that. They just write out "monitoring reports" from their embassies.

seppin 6y ago
The US 100% spies on Israel, and Israel often has the most amount of foreign spies in DC/SF outside of China and Russia.
- fakedang 6y ago
  I don't know about the US spying on Israel, but Israel and the UAE actively spy on the US, and this arrangement is pretty much allowed. I do know that US embassies in both places "monitor" their host countries, which is significantly different from spying and intercepting comms.
  - seppin 6y ago
    So NSA has an algorithm to not capture Israeli communications, or if it does automatically deletes anything with a "Cohen" surname? I don't think what you are saying is even technically possible ("we spy on everyone except this small country"). Everyone spies on everyone.
    - fakedang 6y ago
      Okay, my bad. So the USA does intercept network traffic and communications with them but does not have HUMINT against them. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-emirates-spying-insight-idUSKCN1VG0V3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-emirates-spying-insig... So the NSA monitors the UAE comms, but the CIA does not.
      - seppin 6y ago
        > does not have HUMINT against them I mean, perhaps not on the ground in Israel (which amounts to a small technicality). They still keep tabs on Israel activity everywhere else. Allies in general don't mind being spied on, as long as that intel is shared. For example, German security forces had no idea about the Hamburg cell plotting 9/11 in their country. They would very much wanted a tip off, even from an allied spy agency.

inquirerofsorts 6y ago

> But evvvveryone spies on everyone The NSA has a budget bigger than entire countries economic output. Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Not everyone breaks their own laws constantly to the same extent. Not everyone hides behind some bullshit moral argument to justify their actions to same extent. The rot is real. They now have more power than any elected official including the President and repeatedly lie under sworn oath. These people are no longer public servants they are public masters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0

adventured 6y ago
> The NSA has a budget bigger than entire countries economic output. Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Very few countries have vast global interests, you can count them on one hand. Of course the US has extensive global spying efforts and of course its spying activities do not compare to smaller nations, nations with smaller economies, nations with a fraction of the military responsibilities that the US has, and so on. The US doesn't have any interest in what direction allies and enemies go with their military hardware, such that espionage would be warranted to know in advance if at all possible? Is that a joke? Macron has been saying variations of this: "Europe can no longer rely on the United States for its security" - for the past several years (pushing for his pet European defense force idea). Do you know what that means? That's one of the world's most powerful nations openly admitting Europe presently depends on the US for its security. That has been true for over seven decades now. That's a massive responsibility, and the same is true for the US in Asia. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand all depend on the US for their security in one form or another (against China specifically and going forward in particular, as China will grow far more powerful and threatening). Numerous other nations in Asia will join that list, eg Vietnam will come to depend on the US as a military hedge against China. Now kindly point out all the other various nations that have similar global responsibilities on their shoulders.
thereisnospork 6y ago
> Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Then good for the NSA, spying is their job, for the advancement of American interests[0]. [0] The point of 'playing' international politics - the advancement of one's country's interests.

satisfaction 6y ago

Thanks for saying this. In one case we set a moral example by agreeing to let China and Co. sell us cheap disposable goods with the explicit goal of lifting their farming class out of poverty. We did this at the expense of millions upon millions of Americans and their descendants. It's a real shame that neither political party can agree on a set of actions to reverse that trend.

vinalk 6y ago

Typical response. Everyone does it so it’s fine.

seppin 6y ago
No no, everyone does it so there is no point in criticizing one and not the other.
adventured 6y ago
Everyone doesn't do it because they can't and it it's still more than fine. The US is the world's sole military superpower and post WW2 has been singularly responsible for the world being the safest it has been in recorded history, both in terms of large wars (including large powers going to war with eachother) and weaker nations getting annexed by stronger powers (a now rare event and historically common). If North Korea wants to invade and annex South Korea, they'd have to go through the US. If China wants to take territory from Japan, they have to go through the US (ask Biden, he just confirmed that for Japan, to their delight). If China wants Taiwan, they're afraid they'd have to go through the US (or they'd have already taken it). If Russia wants the Baltics, a chunk of Finland, part of Poland, or Romania's Black Sea territory, it has to go through the US. Who else provides that blanket for the world? The US should be spying on what everyone is doing militarily, without exception.

Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago

I think the problem is that the sanctity of the 5-Eyes data-sharing was abused. While what you say is both true and also valid, the promises offered were (excuse the phrase) ass-raped by the US and extremely one sided. Sure, there was a great deal of naivety on the part of the European Nations that were lining up to share the Great Firehose (As you say, 'If you could, Why wouldn't you?'). It is also true that there was a certain amount of 'beers, bribes & hoe's for the bros' involved but I honestly don't think that anyone in Europe ever truly considered that any intel gathered would be used by the US in the way it was.