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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report
- Pick-A-Hill2019 6y agoExpect the standard 'Mistakes made, Accidental access, Lessons Learned & Never happen again' response from the NSA. And this only a mere 5 years after [1] " American spies may have snooped on Angela Merkel's mobile phone for more than ten years, according to reports in Germany." Lessons Learned, Accidental, Never Happen Again etc etc indeed. [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nsa-allegations-us-spies-tapped-angela-merkel-s-mobile-phone-ten-years-8907137.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nsa-allegati...
- voodootrucker 6y agoThe US is thoroughly corrupt and immoral, mostly in the name of cold war morality. It's allies would be wise to reconsider who we truly are.
- quesera 6y agoMaybe. But evvvveryone spies on everyone, except those who cannot muster the resources to do so. It is entirely expected, by allies and enemies alike. Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. Geopolitics is not for nice people.
- cambalache 6y agoI am sorry but for me there is a difference between, let's spy those Iranians to see what they're up to and, spy that Japanese company to steal secrets for its American competitor. > Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. OK, cool, but this can be applied then to not only spying, this can be used to justify ANYTHING done by a government.
- Pet_Ant 6y ago>> Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake. > OK, cool, but this can be applied then to not only spying, this can be used to justify ANYTHING done by a government. Apply that logic to police forces and you get the situation we are in now.
- nyolfen 6y ago> spy that Japanese company to steal secrets for its American competitor. i don't see any indication that anything like that happened
- cambalache 6y agoI am so happy you are healthy after being 10 years in coma https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use-economic-espionage-benefit-american-corporations/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use...
- BalinKing 6y agoIt’s worth noting that the article only references a leaked memo for a potential plan for the future, rather than concretely describing current activities. Not to say you’re necessarily wrong, but that article isn’t the strongest evidence IMO.
- elefanten 6y agoThat article proves the opposite point, despite the intense message-warping attempted. The report in question is a hypothetical "what if" scenario analysis (one of many) that outlines one possible strategy to address a future where US corporate innovation is not in the top tier. It's not real and it's speculative about the medium-to-long term future. Despite falling over itself to try to imply the US might actually be guilty of trade secret theft for corporations... it fails to provide a single example.
- cambalache 6y ago
- absolutelyrad 6y ago> Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake It seems like we need moral people in leadership positions around world the at the top who don't care about game theory. Game theory is a curse that needs to be eliminated. Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. The biggest impediment to trust is non trustworthy people at top. Geopolitics IS for nice people, we just need to make sure nice people are involved in geopolitics and make it to the top. I know people with power who have been absolutely moral despite no oversight. The could've given their children or themselves so much benefit but they did everything for collective good of everyone. People like that exist, but they also prefer hanging out with people like them. Not opportunists. Humans win collectively with cooperation. The other option is going backwards and tribal.
- seppin 6y ago> Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. Isn't that the point? We all would be better off working together, but that's not in our nature to do so.
- elefanten 6y ago"we just need to make sure nice people are involved in geopolitics and make it to the top" Those are the hard problems in your prescription. -No easy way to test and identify (reliably and at scale) for trustworthiness. -Not all nice/trustworthy people stay that way over time, especially for long periods of time and as their opportunities/environment/outlook change. -Notions of trustworthiness vary across people and peoples. -Positions/nodes of power attract people who want power -- trustworthy or not. Often not.
- airstrike 6y ago> Prisoner's dilemma does no one good. The problem is the prisoners didn't put themselves in prison – they find themselves there as a consequence of international politics and must play the game to the best of their abilities
- fakedang 6y agoTbh the USA has some agreements exclusively with the UAE and Israel that they don't spy on them and stuff like that. They just write out "monitoring reports" from their embassies.
- seppin 6y agoThe US 100% spies on Israel, and Israel often has the most amount of foreign spies in DC/SF outside of China and Russia.
- fakedang 6y agoI don't know about the US spying on Israel, but Israel and the UAE actively spy on the US, and this arrangement is pretty much allowed. I do know that US embassies in both places "monitor" their host countries, which is significantly different from spying and intercepting comms.
- seppin 6y agoSo NSA has an algorithm to not capture Israeli communications, or if it does automatically deletes anything with a "Cohen" surname? I don't think what you are saying is even technically possible ("we spy on everyone except this small country"). Everyone spies on everyone.
- fakedang 6y agoOkay, my bad. So the USA does intercept network traffic and communications with them but does not have HUMINT against them. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-emirates-spying-insight-idUSKCN1VG0V3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-emirates-spying-insig... So the NSA monitors the UAE comms, but the CIA does not.
- seppin 6y ago> does not have HUMINT against them I mean, perhaps not on the ground in Israel (which amounts to a small technicality). They still keep tabs on Israel activity everywhere else. Allies in general don't mind being spied on, as long as that intel is shared. For example, German security forces had no idea about the Hamburg cell plotting 9/11 in their country. They would very much wanted a tip off, even from an allied spy agency.
- inquirerofsorts 6y ago> But evvvveryone spies on everyone The NSA has a budget bigger than entire countries economic output. Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Not everyone breaks their own laws constantly to the same extent. Not everyone hides behind some bullshit moral argument to justify their actions to same extent. The rot is real. They now have more power than any elected official including the President and repeatedly lie under sworn oath. These people are no longer public servants they are public masters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0
- adventured 6y ago> The NSA has a budget bigger than entire countries economic output. Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Very few countries have vast global interests, you can count them on one hand. Of course the US has extensive global spying efforts and of course its spying activities do not compare to smaller nations, nations with smaller economies, nations with a fraction of the military responsibilities that the US has, and so on. The US doesn't have any interest in what direction allies and enemies go with their military hardware, such that espionage would be warranted to know in advance if at all possible? Is that a joke? Macron has been saying variations of this: "Europe can no longer rely on the United States for its security" - for the past several years (pushing for his pet European defense force idea). Do you know what that means? That's one of the world's most powerful nations openly admitting Europe presently depends on the US for its security. That has been true for over seven decades now. That's a massive responsibility, and the same is true for the US in Asia. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand all depend on the US for their security in one form or another (against China specifically and going forward in particular, as China will grow far more powerful and threatening). Numerous other nations in Asia will join that list, eg Vietnam will come to depend on the US as a military hedge against China. Now kindly point out all the other various nations that have similar global responsibilities on their shoulders.
- thereisnospork 6y ago> Not everyone spies on everyone to the same extent. Then good for the NSA, spying is their job, for the advancement of American interests[0]. [0] The point of 'playing' international politics - the advancement of one's country's interests.
- satisfaction 6y agoThanks for saying this. In one case we set a moral example by agreeing to let China and Co. sell us cheap disposable goods with the explicit goal of lifting their farming class out of poverty. We did this at the expense of millions upon millions of Americans and their descendants. It's a real shame that neither political party can agree on a set of actions to reverse that trend.
- vinalk 6y agoTypical response. Everyone does it so it’s fine.
- seppin 6y agoNo no, everyone does it so there is no point in criticizing one and not the other.
- adventured 6y agoEveryone doesn't do it because they can't and it it's still more than fine. The US is the world's sole military superpower and post WW2 has been singularly responsible for the world being the safest it has been in recorded history, both in terms of large wars (including large powers going to war with eachother) and weaker nations getting annexed by stronger powers (a now rare event and historically common). If North Korea wants to invade and annex South Korea, they'd have to go through the US. If China wants to take territory from Japan, they have to go through the US (ask Biden, he just confirmed that for Japan, to their delight). If China wants Taiwan, they're afraid they'd have to go through the US (or they'd have already taken it). If Russia wants the Baltics, a chunk of Finland, part of Poland, or Romania's Black Sea territory, it has to go through the US. Who else provides that blanket for the world? The US should be spying on what everyone is doing militarily, without exception.
- Pick-A-Hill2019 6y agoI think the problem is that the sanctity of the 5-Eyes data-sharing was abused. While what you say is both true and also valid, the promises offered were (excuse the phrase) ass-raped by the US and extremely one sided. Sure, there was a great deal of naivety on the part of the European Nations that were lining up to share the Great Firehose (As you say, 'If you could, Why wouldn't you?'). It is also true that there was a certain amount of 'beers, bribes & hoe's for the bros' involved but I honestly don't think that anyone in Europe ever truly considered that any intel gathered would be used by the US in the way it was.
- rrdharan 6y agoYes, especially compared to the historical paragon of virtue that is Denmark.
- jerry1979 6y agoCough cough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKg_t-Prhqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKg_t-Prhqk
- cbozeman 6y agoThe world will have a master. The question is, who do you want the master to be? Your choices are America, China, or Russia. That's it. You may not like it, but you can't do anything about it, and denying it and raising a fuss about it is childish naivety, not at its finest, but at its absolute worst.
- Dahoon 6y agoMy wish-list: EU, PRC, USA, Russia - in that order. The US has had its chance.
- FpUser 6y agoMy wish - all of them and few more so that no one gets funny ideas about ruling the world.
- disown 6y ago> Your choices are America, China, or Russia. That's it. Don't sleep on the EU. They are largest economic/political entity in the world. Not america, not china, not russia. The EU represents the world's largest market, has a larger population than the US, larger defense budget than china, currency that could possibly replace the dollar one day and a legacy/network of former colonial possessions all over the world.
- tehlike 6y agoThis assumes the continuity of EU as a union. I would not really count on it.
- sfifs 6y agoThe problem for EU is they haven't forged a nation like what US or India has done in spite of their cultural diversity. They're still essential squabbling little countries. How horrifically the south European countries were treated during the financial crisis instead of the EU pulling together just demonstrates how bad the situation is. Unless it federalizes, it will have little or no political impact.
- grecy 6y agoIn this post-Snowden revelations world isn't it wise to assume the NSA is spying on absolutely everything and everyone they possibly can with the goal of strategic, military and financial gain of the USA? I mean.... that's their job, and we know they have the tools to do it.
- tjbiddle 6y agoNews today: Spy agency spies.
- arcticbull 6y ago"Spy agency does job, public shocked and surprised"
- JKCalhoun 6y agoWhy though? Please tell me it wasn't something as petty as money.
- boublepop 6y agoIt’s just about money. The entire dealing was unneeded and seemed driven primarily by the need of corrupt officials to get paid. Makes perfect sense that they spied on officials, likely some where made to fall in line using intelligence instead of bags of money and promises of extravagant consulting jobs later down the line.
- bboygravity 6y agoNews yesterday: Snowden reveals NSA knows everything about everybody. News today: NSA knows something about someone. *1000
- ARandomerDude 6y agoWould we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.
- kjaftaedi 6y agoSo under this data sharing agreement where the US is sharing data with them, would you say the Danish FE would be failing at their job if they weren't using this system to target American politicians?
- grey-area 6y agoNations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends. Also spies should not be used for the benefit of corporations (in this case arms dealers) under cover of ‘national security’.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago> Nations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends. Nations should spy on friends as well, lest they find out too late that who those whom they thought were their friends were actually working with their enemies against them.
- ReptileMan 6y agoTrust but verify.
- Atlantium 6y agoNo nation is friends with another nation. Nations are allies. Ally : a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose. Friend : a person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations. Allies work together for rational mutual purposes, friends work together for emotional reasons. Besides, humans of all nations have far too many factions and unreasonable emotional responses to ever be fully trusted.
- justinclift 6y agoIt's super ironic various EU government parts want to introduce encryption backdoors "for the good guys" (sic), without understanding they'll be opening themselves up to more scenarios like this. :/
- closeparen 6y agoI don’t think they’re going to design classified military aircraft over WhatsApp.
- PradeetPatel 6y agoI might come off as awfully naive here, but is there an equivalent of "the Geneva Convention" for cyber space? If not, do you think having one would safeguard the sovereignty and security of the average Internet user?
- cm2187 6y agoWait. Defence contractors and dept of defence officials discuss national security issues over unencrypted channels in 2015?
- Aperocky 6y agoIt's Denmark, their defense department doesn't really make sense. It's literally an expense they don't need.
- sbierwagen 6y agoFor context, Denmark has a population of 5.8 million. It’s as if Wisconsin had an air force.
- skwb 6y agoI know you're being snarky but to be fair there is the Wisconsin Nation Air Guard. :)
- msh 6y agoBut it have the territory almost 23% of the size of the USA to defend (greenland is part of denmark for defence purposes).
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- fletchowns 6y agoNot really a fair comparison when the population density of Greenland barely even registers
- Aperocky 6y agoIt doesn't. It comes down to this - Denmark completely rely on the international community, particularly the EU and US for defense. If that fails, and let's say hypothetically, Germans attacked, what can Denmark do? Surrender in 4 hours is the preferred play.
- trophycase 6y agoAlready been said a number of ways here but: If the agency spies on it's own citizens, why wouldn't it spy on non-citizens?
- onetimemanytime 6y agoEx CIA chief (Woolsey?) has admitted so much. But only because Europeans /partners might play bribes to win contracts or something
- hestefisk 6y agoI’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities.
- msh 6y agoI am also danish, I would guess a large part is that we have no alternative to the US as a defence partner. If for example russia wanted greenland, I dont feel confident that any other of our allies would put soldiers on the ground to defend it.
- guest3456789 6y agoNot trying to being sceptic here, but before and after seeing the latest Greenland movie, I think USA owns already Greenland de facto for all practical purposes. Denmark just has it on paper and pays the costs. If Russia wanted to take Greenland (why?), then USA will fight of course because it is already theirs.
- ochrist 6y agoI don't agree with this, and neither does the Greenland Home Rule: https://naalakkersuisut.gl/en https://naalakkersuisut.gl/en USA has a base to the very north east of Greenland (Thule Air Base), but most of the workforce there is people from Denmark and Greenland. They used to have other bases (e.g. Sonderstrom), but are currently primarily based on Thule. However, after the POTUS offer on buying Greenland, USA is now (re)opening a consulate there. Source: I'm Danish and have worked at Thule Air Base several years ago.
- mkroman 6y agoDon't forget the constant illegal logging that the government imposes on the ISPs[1], which for some reason, they comply to. [1]: https://ulovliglogning.dk/en/ https://ulovliglogning.dk/en/
- bigbubba 6y agoIt's not often you read headlines about the NSA actually doing what they're meant to do. I'm glad to hear they still find time for real work, not just spying on everybody's dick pics.
- gojomo 6y agoNote that France – one of governments with commercial interests in the Airbus/Eurofighter consortium – doesn't have clean hands when it comes to spying on behalf of its domestic firms: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-spied-on-commercial-rivals-1323422.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-spied-on-com... While perversion of national-security spying for generic & narrow commercial gain is concerning, arms deals are a hybrid case. To the extent a case involves government-on-government spying, it's hard for me to get angry. I tend to see it as a rare horizontal form of transparency/accountability among entities that often have too few checks on their corruption & skulduggery. Even between friendly governments, maybe friends that spy on each other achieve an even greater mutual trust - an assurance there's nothing being planned internally that conflicts with the claims made via official channels. "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" is a shitty principle when hypocritically deployed by the powerful against private people. But doesn't it kind of make sense when applied to governments? What right-to-privacy, exactly, does a government have against its citizens or allies?
- chmod775 6y agoWhen both allies were spying on each other, then sure, you can go "hehe look at us sillies xD". But when it's just one party doing the spying, it violates trust, not builds it, as the US has learned. It's hard to measure how much the Snowden revelations have contributed to the distancing of US allies, since there was also someone else who contributed greatly to the ongoing political isolation of the US, but it certainly didn't help build trust.
- phobosanomaly 6y agoThere's no way the Pentagon actually cares what planes Denmark buys, so some Lockheed executive probably asked a congressman to do it at some DC luncheon, and then the congressman made a bunch of noise at the Pentagon, and somebody at the Pentagon made a bunch of noise at the NSA, and the NSA had some Georgetown flunky query a database with some names and email addresses and write a report. A perfectly banal waste of taxpayer dollars.
- Tepix 6y agoYet another case of the NSA spying to give american companies an unfair advantage. Last time i checked, that wasn't their official mission.
- awaythrows 6y agoIt is one of their missions: Advances U.S. goals. https://www.nsa.gov/what-we-do/ https://www.nsa.gov/what-we-do/
- Tangokat 6y agoThe question is: Did the NSA spy on Danish companies for political reasons or industrial espionage reasons? I think the former is to be expected while the latter is not. As an aside.. say the NSA finds out some great industrial espionage info.. how do they actually give the information to the correct US companies? Drop a USB stick in front of the CEOs door?
- 4gotunameagain 6y agoConsidering that any knowledge of importance in this context will go to the military–industrial complex, I don't think the act of actually sharing the information is an issue.
- jeroenhd 6y agoI can't say I'm surprised they spied on their allies, it's a US spy agency after all. It does underline the fact that countries within the EU should move away from US deals for industries their member states compete in. The US simply cannot be trusted.
- koheripbal 6y agoEveryone spies on everyone. That's how spying works. You spy on your allies because no nation is 100% with you or against you. In each nation there are elements of the enemy in them - some that your allied head of state may not even be aware of.
- NumberCruncher 6y agoSome sources say they were spying together: https://www.techzine.eu/news/security/52178/danish-intelligence-agency-helped-nsa-spy-on-europe/ https://www.techzine.eu/news/security/52178/danish-intellige... Danish politician about having cheap flying taxis by 2030, we only have to give up our privacy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25068820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25068820 All lies and deception...
- aussiegreenie 6y agoNSA spies on everyone except America where GCHQ (UK 5 Eyes) does it and than shares the data with the NSA. NSA is not doing much more than FB/Google does every day.