5 ms·

I believe I am a good writer. On my first job as a developer I kept getting very positive feedback on my writing. I ended up even starting a newsletter with wri

by soneca 6y ago

I believe I am a good writer. On my first job as a developer I kept getting very positive feedback on my writing. I ended up even starting a newsletter with writing advice for software developers[0]. So 4 months ago I started looking for a remote job. I applied to 250+ positions. All very suited to my skills (e.g. I wouldn’t apply to any job asking for “senior” or “fullstack”). I got about only ~15 interviews, 1 offer. The message is that I believe strong writing skills won’t help you get a job. It will help you a lot once you start the job, but I don’t believe it helps at all at being hired. Things that I do believe help you get hired: a well-written CV, a CS degree, a top-branded college, a top-branded former employer, a good public sample of your code (open source, side-project, etc), interview skills (be calm, articulate, charming, clear explanations and thought process), practice at technical interviews of the specific type of the positions you are applying to. My advice is to practice your writing skills after you get a job, not before. [0] https://writingfordevelopers.substack.com https://writingfordevelopers.substack.com

gingerlime 6y ago
I think you missed one thing -- in my opinion the most crucial: cover letter. I wrote about it on https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/who-doesnt-want-to-be-hired/ https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/who-doesnt-want-to-be-hired...
- soneca 6y ago
  I am on the fence on cover letters. I am pretty sure they are not the most crucial part though. I did write cover letters for most of my applications, a relevant part of them following all the good advice for cover letters, some just copy and paste. I couldn’t see correlation in my application of well-thought cover letters and interviews. My copy-paste one was very well written and representative of my skills. Good enough for most companies I think. In the end I got a job from a copy-paste one. The most a good customized cover letter did to me were customized rejections praising my cover letter/email.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    How do you deploy the cover letter? I always package it in with the resume to force it to be read rather than just in the dedicated cover letter spot.
    - soneca 6y ago
      I always use the cover letter spot, never occurred to me that trick. Might be a good idea. Still, the GP argument is that a hiring manager would read the cover letter first. This trick would help with other type of managers
      - MattGaiser 6y ago
        I often write very unique cover letters, so I want to force them to at least be skimmed.
    - azemetre 6y ago
      Do you have the cover letter be the first page or the second? I'm now thinking about doing this myself. Figured it would be more likely read when it's part of the resume itself.
      - MattGaiser 6y ago
        I put it first. I want it read. Then they can be encouraged to read the resume in more detail.
  - gingerlime 6y ago
    my limited experience there is from reading hundreds of applications. The cover letter definitely made the biggest difference in our process (small remote company, no HR department, no headhunters or agents). You mention things like “representative of my skills”, which I’m sure these were. I would however stress out the importance of representing the match to the employer. A good cover letter makes it obvious. And yes there’s an overlap between skills and match, but they are still different.
- Denzel 6y ago
  7 jobs; 2-3x offers over career, and I’ve never written a cover letter. Involved in interviewing for 2/7, and a cover letter has never factored into a hiring decision.
capableweb 6y ago
> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) that match with what I'm looking for exactly, read up on the companies, tell them explicitly how I fit into what they need and write them personally. I have a 100% success rate when it comes to interviews, and most of the time I get a offer, but drop out when my counter-offer is too high. On the other side of the fence (as someone who does hiring), if the application looks like something that can be easily copy-pasted and the applicant has no idea about the company itself or tried the product when I follow up, then the candidate very quickly goes to the bottom of the list. Instead of focusing on useless parameters like "CS degree, top-branded college" and so on, try to focus on writing high quality applications for a few selected companies you know you can help. I'm sure your success rate will improve then.
- benjaminsuch 6y ago
  Not sure why he is getting downvoted, but I agree. I did the same, without having a degree. Telling companies why you fit and why they should hire you has a huge effect, especially if you compete with people who come from a university with a degree in their pocket. Explaining a company why you are a great fit and directly write the responsible person in HR shows, that you: 1. Did not blindly sent out hundreds of applications 2. Gathered information about what the company does and evaluate your fit in consideration of your skillset 3. Contact the right person The 2. point is the most important one. Now, where I am in the position of hiring people, I would gladly take someone who tells me, thoughtful reasons of why we should hire him. But also don't underestimate the 3. point. Don't message the head of HR or similar persons. Instead write the people who will potentially be your lead. But it also depends where you apply. A big corporation? A startup? Government? Something else? The parent comment is correct regardless: Target-focus
- soneca 6y ago
  ”I’m sure your success rate will improve then” I think you are wrong. I don’t have a CS degree, I don’t have top brand college or employer. You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs where I was a very good fit. I did that. And it didn’t got me offers. If you tell me more about your profile, I am sure I can pinpoint why you get 100% success rate and I don’t. I am pretty sure it is not for the reasons you mentioned.
keutoi 6y ago
It is likely that hiring practices are not updated for a remote job. With remote jobs increasing I think that writing skills will be taken into consideration.
austincheney 6y ago
> My advice is to practice your writing skills after you get a job, not before. I so completely disagree. The same can be, and often is, said of actual programming skills. The result is a collection of people with insufficient skills and poor communications. Writing influences your ability to organize thoughts into a cohesive flow which influences programming skills. It is really frustrating to work with developers who can’t do their job without some magic tool to do the job for them. These are people scared to death to write any original code or make any technical decision. It is so frustrating that the next time I go through hiring I am so tempted to use an essay requirement as a filter.
simplecto 6y ago
Sounds like a ton of work. I go through recruiters both for contract and full-time positions.
IshKebab 6y ago
Does a CS degree really matter? I suspect not. Where I work there are more programmers who did maths, physics, engineering, or something else (or nothing!) than there are programmers with CS degrees. Based on random people I've talked to it's probably like 1/4 of people have a CS degree.
innomatics 6y ago
I wonder if the notion of a cover letter is waning in tech recruitment. Did you write a cover letter for those 250+ positions, and if so, I wonder who read it? When I applied for IC roles in the past I put a fair amount of thought into writing a good cover letter. Now, as a hiring manager I am normally just passed resumes by internal or external recruiters. The article has me thinking that it might be worth requesting to read the letter, but I believe it's optional, so I worry it might narrow the funnel too much. Also I am conscious that much, if not the majority of the talent pool in my region have English as a second language, so I'm keen not to judge formal writing skills excessively, which could exclude otherwise good informal communicators and coders.
Taylor_OD 6y ago
I agree. Writing abilities are valued after you have passed whatever arbitrary coding test the company requires you to take. Similar to leadership and people skills in technical roles. Companies say they want them but they are valued much lower than ability to pass their technical to a suitable degree.
commandlinefan 6y ago
> help you get hired ... a CS degree, a top-branded college, a top-branded former employer Well, while it's true that people with all of that will have no problem finding jobs, you should remember that there aren't that many of them and employers eventually have to be flexible somewhere if they actually want to fill a position.
torgard 6y ago
Subscribed! You are indeed a great writer.

by soneca 6y ago

gingerlime 6y ago

I think you missed one thing -- in my opinion the most crucial: cover letter. I wrote about it on https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/who-doesnt-want-to-be-hired/ https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/who-doesnt-want-to-be-hired...

soneca 6y ago
I am on the fence on cover letters. I am pretty sure they are not the most crucial part though. I did write cover letters for most of my applications, a relevant part of them following all the good advice for cover letters, some just copy and paste. I couldn’t see correlation in my application of well-thought cover letters and interviews. My copy-paste one was very well written and representative of my skills. Good enough for most companies I think. In the end I got a job from a copy-paste one. The most a good customized cover letter did to me were customized rejections praising my cover letter/email.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  How do you deploy the cover letter? I always package it in with the resume to force it to be read rather than just in the dedicated cover letter spot.
  - soneca 6y ago
    I always use the cover letter spot, never occurred to me that trick. Might be a good idea. Still, the GP argument is that a hiring manager would read the cover letter first. This trick would help with other type of managers
    - MattGaiser 6y ago
      I often write very unique cover letters, so I want to force them to at least be skimmed.
  - azemetre 6y ago
    Do you have the cover letter be the first page or the second? I'm now thinking about doing this myself. Figured it would be more likely read when it's part of the resume itself.
    - MattGaiser 6y ago
      I put it first. I want it read. Then they can be encouraged to read the resume in more detail.
- gingerlime 6y ago
  my limited experience there is from reading hundreds of applications. The cover letter definitely made the biggest difference in our process (small remote company, no HR department, no headhunters or agents). You mention things like “representative of my skills”, which I’m sure these were. I would however stress out the importance of representing the match to the employer. A good cover letter makes it obvious. And yes there’s an overlap between skills and match, but they are still different.
Denzel 6y ago
7 jobs; 2-3x offers over career, and I’ve never written a cover letter. Involved in interviewing for 2/7, and a cover letter has never factored into a hiring decision.

capableweb 6y ago

> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) that match with what I'm looking for exactly, read up on the companies, tell them explicitly how I fit into what they need and write them personally. I have a 100% success rate when it comes to interviews, and most of the time I get a offer, but drop out when my counter-offer is too high. On the other side of the fence (as someone who does hiring), if the application looks like something that can be easily copy-pasted and the applicant has no idea about the company itself or tried the product when I follow up, then the candidate very quickly goes to the bottom of the list. Instead of focusing on useless parameters like "CS degree, top-branded college" and so on, try to focus on writing high quality applications for a few selected companies you know you can help. I'm sure your success rate will improve then.

benjaminsuch 6y ago
Not sure why he is getting downvoted, but I agree. I did the same, without having a degree. Telling companies why you fit and why they should hire you has a huge effect, especially if you compete with people who come from a university with a degree in their pocket. Explaining a company why you are a great fit and directly write the responsible person in HR shows, that you: 1. Did not blindly sent out hundreds of applications 2. Gathered information about what the company does and evaluate your fit in consideration of your skillset 3. Contact the right person The 2. point is the most important one. Now, where I am in the position of hiring people, I would gladly take someone who tells me, thoughtful reasons of why we should hire him. But also don't underestimate the 3. point. Don't message the head of HR or similar persons. Instead write the people who will potentially be your lead. But it also depends where you apply. A big corporation? A startup? Government? Something else? The parent comment is correct regardless: Target-focus
soneca 6y ago
”I’m sure your success rate will improve then” I think you are wrong. I don’t have a CS degree, I don’t have top brand college or employer. You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs where I was a very good fit. I did that. And it didn’t got me offers. If you tell me more about your profile, I am sure I can pinpoint why you get 100% success rate and I don’t. I am pretty sure it is not for the reasons you mentioned.

keutoi 6y ago

It is likely that hiring practices are not updated for a remote job. With remote jobs increasing I think that writing skills will be taken into consideration.

austincheney 6y ago

> My advice is to practice your writing skills after you get a job, not before. I so completely disagree. The same can be, and often is, said of actual programming skills. The result is a collection of people with insufficient skills and poor communications. Writing influences your ability to organize thoughts into a cohesive flow which influences programming skills. It is really frustrating to work with developers who can’t do their job without some magic tool to do the job for them. These are people scared to death to write any original code or make any technical decision. It is so frustrating that the next time I go through hiring I am so tempted to use an essay requirement as a filter.

simplecto 6y ago

Sounds like a ton of work. I go through recruiters both for contract and full-time positions.

IshKebab 6y ago

Does a CS degree really matter? I suspect not. Where I work there are more programmers who did maths, physics, engineering, or something else (or nothing!) than there are programmers with CS degrees. Based on random people I've talked to it's probably like 1/4 of people have a CS degree.

innomatics 6y ago

I wonder if the notion of a cover letter is waning in tech recruitment. Did you write a cover letter for those 250+ positions, and if so, I wonder who read it? When I applied for IC roles in the past I put a fair amount of thought into writing a good cover letter. Now, as a hiring manager I am normally just passed resumes by internal or external recruiters. The article has me thinking that it might be worth requesting to read the letter, but I believe it's optional, so I worry it might narrow the funnel too much. Also I am conscious that much, if not the majority of the talent pool in my region have English as a second language, so I'm keen not to judge formal writing skills excessively, which could exclude otherwise good informal communicators and coders.

Taylor_OD 6y ago

I agree. Writing abilities are valued after you have passed whatever arbitrary coding test the company requires you to take. Similar to leadership and people skills in technical roles. Companies say they want them but they are valued much lower than ability to pass their technical to a suitable degree.

commandlinefan 6y ago

> help you get hired ... a CS degree, a top-branded college, a top-branded former employer Well, while it's true that people with all of that will have no problem finding jobs, you should remember that there aren't that many of them and employers eventually have to be flexible somewhere if they actually want to fill a position.

torgard 6y ago

Subscribed! You are indeed a great writer.