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>Paradoxically, we found that fathers who activate the anterior cingulate the most when listening to infant crying report the most negative emotional responses

>Paradoxically, we found that fathers who activate the anterior cingulate the most when listening to infant crying report the most negative emotional responses to those cries, in particular being more likely to label the cry as spoiled or manipulative. How can greater engagement of a brain region associated with empathy be linked with such negative subjective reactions to the cry? We suspect it relates to a phenomenon known as ‘empathic overarousal’, in which an observer takes on the distress of another individual to such an extent that they become mired in personal distress, which in turn interferes with the motivation and ability to deliver compassionate care. There might be an optimal state of arousal and degree of empathy, neither too high nor too low, that facilitates sensitive and responsive fathering. I experienced this first hand. The newborn phase was really hard for me. I’m glad to know the reason for this, as I’ve always only ever understood it in a handwavy “male postpartum depression” sort of way

ryanar 6y ago
I read that too and was similarly interested. When babysitting our niece who is <1 year old over night, I was able to handle the incessant crying really well and try to figure out how to alleviate it, or just ride it out while holding her. My wife had to remove herself because it was causing her a ton of distress from hearing the crying. I wonder if she was experiencing this empathic overarousal.
- auslegung 6y ago
  I remember spending lots of time with my nieces when they were newborns and infants, and their cries didn't bother me in the least. Now that I have my own, when my own children cry I most often want to punch a wall.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mattgreenrocks 6y ago
Same experience. I wrote it off as a big change and sleep deprivation, but there were some days that the cries of my son seemed very difficult to deal with. I hadn't had much experience with newborns/babies prior. It could also be generalized anxiety. Mine would take uniquely weird forms, including awakening from a dead sleep convinced my son was buried/lost somewhere in the house. I'm convinced that the biological impulse to care/provide for babies is at the firmware-level of our impulses, and, as such, must be something that is acclimated to, rather than controlled by executive function.
- treeman79 6y ago
  Have a sleepwalker. Related to needing to pee. Absolutely will end up anywhere in the house, in any bucket or shelf. Or out the door. Caught her peeing in Landry buckets, on her sisters head, etc. We have barriers to keep her on top floor. They have to be sturdy. Moment we can get kid to pee she is instantly fully awake, confused as to how she got there and goes back to bed for the night. We’ve leaned to sleep lightly. The moment we hear her first stirrings we swoop in and stick her on toilet. Crazy times
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    Man, that's rough. Our kid had night terrors for about a year. Just about the time the random worrying stopped happening we started getting woken up to blood-curdling screams we couldn't really do anything about.
    - treeman79 6y ago
      First kid had those. Truly horrifing. Had no idea she wasn’t awake. All while talking. Faded after A year or so. Second one went 5 years of them. Almost nightly. Gradually Shifted to sleepwalking instead. Less dramatic, but more dangerous. Either way exact moment she pee’d it was over.
- defen 6y ago
  I can relate to the anxiety/firmware thing. I had never really experienced that sort of generalized anxiety before, but the weird thing for me was that it was preverbal. So I couldn't even put it into terms like "buried/lost somewhere"; it was more like a feeling. Like the feeling you would get in your stomach if you showed up to an important class one day completely unprepared for a pop quiz. Just that feeling, constantly. Luckily for me it was directly correlated with (lack of) sleep, so once that got better the feeling went away.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  in my culture, during the last few months of pregnancy, the mother to be goes off to her mom's house. all new borns come home to a gaggle of grandmothers and aunts. and cousins. mom will not be sleep deprived. this is the village. as i got older, i had my share of baby cousins to tend and this gives mom time to recover. sleep is a major healing factor. babies are a group effort. women need their tribe. its an old fashioned way of thinking, but i am only speaking from my lived experiences. YMMV etc. this was also a way for young girls to become familiar with babies and understand pregnancy. once you have seen a live birth and distended nipples and the bloody river of afterbirth, women have a very realistic notion of what childbirth means...its like acclimitizing before entering the death zone while climbing mt.everest. parenthood requires proper introduction before one can jump into it. exposure to other parents..usually family is better for women because one way or another, we are all going to end up with the same blooms and warts as our grandmothers anyways. might as well understand the terrain before entering it. #female perspective. as far as men are concerned..all i can say is make sure you have a way to earn and support your child. because babies are expensive. how do you prove that you are worthy of being a father? by being a provider, of course. one can always hire a night nanny. but you still need the means to support a child.
civilized 6y ago
This was a big challenge for me raising two little ones. Part of it is not even empathy, but being hypersensitive to loud distressing noise in general
bcrosby95 6y ago
If you have enough kids it's kinda a sink or swim moment: you learn to tune it out or go crazy. We have twin 2 year olds and a 5 year old. There's been periods of time where there's crying (by at least one of them) for most of the day. When you're 1 on 3 at these sorts of ages it's inevitable. When 1 starts crying in the car and the other 2 start crying because the crying is too loud, there's not much you can do but laugh about it. Take solace in the fact that kids cry over ridiculous stuff. For 20 minutes. Because, for example, you peeled their orange for them.
- bluedays 6y ago
  She's three now. I can definitely relate to the orange thing.
  - geerlingguy 6y ago
    The orange thing happened last night here. Wife peeled pith of, 4 yo went ballistic for 10 minutes.
  - wmwmwm 6y ago
    Our 3 year old had a total meltdown yesterday because I brought him his toothbrush and toothpaste, but in the wrong hands! When you’re tired it’s so easy to take this stuff personally and then all of a sudden you remember that there’s this little person whose brain is catching up with their emotions and suddenly it’s a lot easier to be sympathetic, philosophical and fascinated, even by the tantrums!
- mysterydip 6y ago
  Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone. I have a 5yo and twin 2yos myself and the dynamic between them drives me crazy sometimes.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- knuthsat 6y ago
kody 6y ago
My wife and I are working from home and raising our 6 month old daughter, and the -only- distraction that brings me to a grinding halt is my daughter's crying. Even with noise-cancelling headphones, if I hear any crying at all I feel an incredible emotional reaction that totally prevents me from focusing on work until she's calm and happy again. I'm also glad to read that there's a natural (hormonal?) explanation for the disproportionate effect that her crying has on me.
- mattlondon 6y ago
  Same here with a 9 month old. I can tune out the general noise, but there are certain cries that 100% short-circuit my brain and dissolve any semblance of focus or ability to concentrate. Some days, by the time baby is asleep my nerves are just utterly shot by trying to concentrate around the crying.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    You should get some ear plugs.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yellowstuff 6y ago
I don't see this as paradoxical. For babies past a couple months old a lot of cries are actually manipulative, and a more empathetic person can better distinguish them. I think my wife and I started sleeping training our son at around 12 weeks old, and quickly learned to tell the difference between a "complaining" cry that meant he was unhappy but he could probably soothe himself, and a "real" cry that meant he was really upset and needed our attention. Both of those were quite different from the sharp cries that indicated physical pain or something very distressing.
- christophilus 6y ago
  Did you have a hard time convincing your wife to do sleep training on your kid? My wife thinks it’s abusive. I think it’s abusive to everyone else in the house not to do it!
  - endymi0n 6y ago
    Don't know. Thought the same, but my wife said one thing that stuck with me: "Life's short. They'll leave on their own anyway and then you'll miss this". I gave in and still put our 4 and 6 year olds to sleep in our big family bed, then teleport them later. After being a bit annoyed in the beginning, I've changed my mind by now. Bringing them to bed is honestly the best thing ever.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Whether it is abusive 100% depends on how your kids reacts. Some will stop crying and with cry hard anyway. Others will cry for over 2 hours super strong (and then friend who had such kid decided this wont be done again). Babies are not copies, they react in various ways.
  - oblio 6y ago
    From what I see/hear/experience, every kid is different. As some stranger on the internet said: "After I had my first kid, I thought I was God's gift to parenting. A few years later I had a second kid and he cured me of such misconceived notions." :-D
jedimastert 6y ago
> The newborn phase was really hard for me So many people led me to believe that I would fall in love with my kid the instant I first laid eyes on her, and it simply wasn't the case. I love her so much now, but it definitely wasn't the immediate flip of a switch that some may believe
- kody 6y ago
  Anecdotally, all of my father friends felt the exact same way.
- christophilus 6y ago
  I’ve never felt that way about any of my kids, nor have my (male) friends of theirs. I don’t know if it’s a guy thing or not. My daughter was the closest I got to those warm fuzzies. My two sons... I found them more irritating than anything else for the first six months or so.
- endymi0n 6y ago
  I also really, really wasn't into babies before becoming a father, then when they were there, it was actually kinda okay — but now that they can talk, reason and you can mess with them, it's definitely _so_ much cooler. What's interesting though is that for me, having spent time with a baby seems to have changed some wirings retroactively. Just saw a toddler yesterday doing random things and having so much fun in the puddles, it was reeeeally cute. Good memories. What nobody tells you though is that annoyingness and cuteness go hand in hand. As soon as they stop being annoying, they also stop being cute. It's hard to enjoy much of that cuteness because life's generally hard, loud and exhausting with a toddler. But as soon as it starts getting better, you also realize how much you miss that will never come back. As Paul Graham said so wisely: There are only 52 weekends you will ever have with your three year old. Life is short, use it. Or at the very least, try to :)
  - oblio 6y ago
    > There are only 52 weekends you will ever have with your three year old. I'm confused. Shouldn't it be 156?

ryanar 6y ago

I read that too and was similarly interested. When babysitting our niece who is <1 year old over night, I was able to handle the incessant crying really well and try to figure out how to alleviate it, or just ride it out while holding her. My wife had to remove herself because it was causing her a ton of distress from hearing the crying. I wonder if she was experiencing this empathic overarousal.

auslegung 6y ago
I remember spending lots of time with my nieces when they were newborns and infants, and their cries didn't bother me in the least. Now that I have my own, when my own children cry I most often want to punch a wall.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mattgreenrocks 6y ago

Same experience. I wrote it off as a big change and sleep deprivation, but there were some days that the cries of my son seemed very difficult to deal with. I hadn't had much experience with newborns/babies prior. It could also be generalized anxiety. Mine would take uniquely weird forms, including awakening from a dead sleep convinced my son was buried/lost somewhere in the house. I'm convinced that the biological impulse to care/provide for babies is at the firmware-level of our impulses, and, as such, must be something that is acclimated to, rather than controlled by executive function.

treeman79 6y ago
Have a sleepwalker. Related to needing to pee. Absolutely will end up anywhere in the house, in any bucket or shelf. Or out the door. Caught her peeing in Landry buckets, on her sisters head, etc. We have barriers to keep her on top floor. They have to be sturdy. Moment we can get kid to pee she is instantly fully awake, confused as to how she got there and goes back to bed for the night. We’ve leaned to sleep lightly. The moment we hear her first stirrings we swoop in and stick her on toilet. Crazy times
- cgriswald 6y ago
  Man, that's rough. Our kid had night terrors for about a year. Just about the time the random worrying stopped happening we started getting woken up to blood-curdling screams we couldn't really do anything about.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    First kid had those. Truly horrifing. Had no idea she wasn’t awake. All while talking. Faded after A year or so. Second one went 5 years of them. Almost nightly. Gradually Shifted to sleepwalking instead. Less dramatic, but more dangerous. Either way exact moment she pee’d it was over.
defen 6y ago
I can relate to the anxiety/firmware thing. I had never really experienced that sort of generalized anxiety before, but the weird thing for me was that it was preverbal. So I couldn't even put it into terms like "buried/lost somewhere"; it was more like a feeling. Like the feeling you would get in your stomach if you showed up to an important class one day completely unprepared for a pop quiz. Just that feeling, constantly. Luckily for me it was directly correlated with (lack of) sleep, so once that got better the feeling went away.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
in my culture, during the last few months of pregnancy, the mother to be goes off to her mom's house. all new borns come home to a gaggle of grandmothers and aunts. and cousins. mom will not be sleep deprived. this is the village. as i got older, i had my share of baby cousins to tend and this gives mom time to recover. sleep is a major healing factor. babies are a group effort. women need their tribe. its an old fashioned way of thinking, but i am only speaking from my lived experiences. YMMV etc. this was also a way for young girls to become familiar with babies and understand pregnancy. once you have seen a live birth and distended nipples and the bloody river of afterbirth, women have a very realistic notion of what childbirth means...its like acclimitizing before entering the death zone while climbing mt.everest. parenthood requires proper introduction before one can jump into it. exposure to other parents..usually family is better for women because one way or another, we are all going to end up with the same blooms and warts as our grandmothers anyways. might as well understand the terrain before entering it. #female perspective. as far as men are concerned..all i can say is make sure you have a way to earn and support your child. because babies are expensive. how do you prove that you are worthy of being a father? by being a provider, of course. one can always hire a night nanny. but you still need the means to support a child.

civilized 6y ago

This was a big challenge for me raising two little ones. Part of it is not even empathy, but being hypersensitive to loud distressing noise in general

bcrosby95 6y ago

If you have enough kids it's kinda a sink or swim moment: you learn to tune it out or go crazy. We have twin 2 year olds and a 5 year old. There's been periods of time where there's crying (by at least one of them) for most of the day. When you're 1 on 3 at these sorts of ages it's inevitable. When 1 starts crying in the car and the other 2 start crying because the crying is too loud, there's not much you can do but laugh about it. Take solace in the fact that kids cry over ridiculous stuff. For 20 minutes. Because, for example, you peeled their orange for them.

bluedays 6y ago
She's three now. I can definitely relate to the orange thing.
- geerlingguy 6y ago
  The orange thing happened last night here. Wife peeled pith of, 4 yo went ballistic for 10 minutes.
- wmwmwm 6y ago
  Our 3 year old had a total meltdown yesterday because I brought him his toothbrush and toothpaste, but in the wrong hands! When you’re tired it’s so easy to take this stuff personally and then all of a sudden you remember that there’s this little person whose brain is catching up with their emotions and suddenly it’s a lot easier to be sympathetic, philosophical and fascinated, even by the tantrums!
mysterydip 6y ago
Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone. I have a 5yo and twin 2yos myself and the dynamic between them drives me crazy sometimes.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
knuthsat 6y ago

kody 6y ago

My wife and I are working from home and raising our 6 month old daughter, and the -only- distraction that brings me to a grinding halt is my daughter's crying. Even with noise-cancelling headphones, if I hear any crying at all I feel an incredible emotional reaction that totally prevents me from focusing on work until she's calm and happy again. I'm also glad to read that there's a natural (hormonal?) explanation for the disproportionate effect that her crying has on me.

mattlondon 6y ago
Same here with a 9 month old. I can tune out the general noise, but there are certain cries that 100% short-circuit my brain and dissolve any semblance of focus or ability to concentrate. Some days, by the time baby is asleep my nerves are just utterly shot by trying to concentrate around the crying.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  You should get some ear plugs.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

yellowstuff 6y ago

I don't see this as paradoxical. For babies past a couple months old a lot of cries are actually manipulative, and a more empathetic person can better distinguish them. I think my wife and I started sleeping training our son at around 12 weeks old, and quickly learned to tell the difference between a "complaining" cry that meant he was unhappy but he could probably soothe himself, and a "real" cry that meant he was really upset and needed our attention. Both of those were quite different from the sharp cries that indicated physical pain or something very distressing.

christophilus 6y ago
Did you have a hard time convincing your wife to do sleep training on your kid? My wife thinks it’s abusive. I think it’s abusive to everyone else in the house not to do it!
- endymi0n 6y ago
  Don't know. Thought the same, but my wife said one thing that stuck with me: "Life's short. They'll leave on their own anyway and then you'll miss this". I gave in and still put our 4 and 6 year olds to sleep in our big family bed, then teleport them later. After being a bit annoyed in the beginning, I've changed my mind by now. Bringing them to bed is honestly the best thing ever.
- watwut 6y ago
  Whether it is abusive 100% depends on how your kids reacts. Some will stop crying and with cry hard anyway. Others will cry for over 2 hours super strong (and then friend who had such kid decided this wont be done again). Babies are not copies, they react in various ways.
- oblio 6y ago
  From what I see/hear/experience, every kid is different. As some stranger on the internet said: "After I had my first kid, I thought I was God's gift to parenting. A few years later I had a second kid and he cured me of such misconceived notions." :-D

jedimastert 6y ago

> The newborn phase was really hard for me So many people led me to believe that I would fall in love with my kid the instant I first laid eyes on her, and it simply wasn't the case. I love her so much now, but it definitely wasn't the immediate flip of a switch that some may believe

kody 6y ago
Anecdotally, all of my father friends felt the exact same way.
christophilus 6y ago
I’ve never felt that way about any of my kids, nor have my (male) friends of theirs. I don’t know if it’s a guy thing or not. My daughter was the closest I got to those warm fuzzies. My two sons... I found them more irritating than anything else for the first six months or so.
endymi0n 6y ago
I also really, really wasn't into babies before becoming a father, then when they were there, it was actually kinda okay — but now that they can talk, reason and you can mess with them, it's definitely _so_ much cooler. What's interesting though is that for me, having spent time with a baby seems to have changed some wirings retroactively. Just saw a toddler yesterday doing random things and having so much fun in the puddles, it was reeeeally cute. Good memories. What nobody tells you though is that annoyingness and cuteness go hand in hand. As soon as they stop being annoying, they also stop being cute. It's hard to enjoy much of that cuteness because life's generally hard, loud and exhausting with a toddler. But as soon as it starts getting better, you also realize how much you miss that will never come back. As Paul Graham said so wisely: There are only 52 weekends you will ever have with your three year old. Life is short, use it. Or at the very least, try to :)
- oblio 6y ago
  > There are only 52 weekends you will ever have with your three year old. I'm confused. Shouldn't it be 156?