21 ms·

The biology of dads

236 points by elsewhen 6y ago

zero_deg_kevin 6y ago
Any ideas on how to get them to stick around after their kids are born? Asking for a friend.
- superflit 6y ago
  Maybe remembering the fathers that after his kid is born there is a "hell" time of mostly 3-4 months where the baby will be adapting to you and vice-versa. Then the baby sleeps gets longer and you can have 6-8h of sleep. New fathers: Hold tight, after 3-4 months it gets way easier.
  - auslegung 6y ago
    In my experience it's a lot longer than 3-4 months. Or perhaps it's hell for 3-4 months, then just purgatory for another couple of years. I have a 4-yo and 2.5-yo and my sleep has still not recovered. Just last night one of them woke up screaming, and this continues to happen about weekly. Being woken up in the middle of the night is one thing, being woken up in the middle of the night to the banshee screams of a young child is quite another.
    - jnwatson 6y ago
      It varies widely. My kid has slept through the night since about 4 weeks old. The more kids you have, the more likely you are to get a fussy one.
    - zrail 6y ago
      This rhymes with my experience. My 4.5yo only wakes up when she's sick but my 2yo wakes up at least once a night almost every night. Last night was the first time in weeks where she didn't, but then of course my body has been trained to respond to her so I didn't sleep well.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      My mother, at 76 years old, to me at 56 years old and (former) stay-at-home parent: "oh, the first 40 years are the hardest".
    - pavel_lishin 6y ago
      Seconding this. It wasn't until she turned four that we could assume that we would sleep through the night, instead of vice versa. Takes a long time for the exception to become the rule.
  - x87678r 6y ago
    Just wait until they're 16 and aren't home by midnight and not answering phone.
    - oblio 6y ago
      Yeah, but at that point it's kind of out of your control. You've probably provided 95% of the guidance you could have provided and they're almost grown-ups. I understand the attachment, but at some point you have to let go and life is full of risks (and interesting things). Though I doubt my reasoning will assuage any parental fears :-)
      - x87678r 6y ago
        > Though I doubt my reasoning will assuage any parental fears :-) Yeah how many teenagers do you parent? :)
        oblio 6y ago
        None, yet. I do consider that I know myself well enough but we'll see in a bunch of years :-))
  - zo1 6y ago
    It gets better after 1 years, then gets better after 2, and so on. Especially once they become autonomous and self-sustaining and you can reason with them using words. Then it's absolute rewarding bliss and frustrating chaos all at the same time.
    - serpix 6y ago
      at the 8 year mark I have yet to experience this reasoning with words you speak of.
  - wincy 6y ago
    My wife and I had two queen sized beds, I slept on one, and our infant and my wife on the other. We coslept and my wife breast fed ad libitum. People kept asking me if I was tired, and I was confused about what they meant. I remember her once commenting "it's so amazing, she (our daughter) sleeps through the night without feeding!" to which I replied, "no, she makes a small fuss and you roll over and pop a boob in her mouth"! Wife wasn't even aware it was happening, and we were well rested and happy. On the downside, breast feeding ad libitum basically meant my wife's full time job was to breast feed, we went on a date after our kid was a few months old and we had to cut it short because she was sore and it was feeding time. She estimates she spent 40+ hours a week breastfeeding. She played a lot of video games with our daughter latched on, since it could be pretty boring. Like any parents, we had a few "hell nights" when she was sick or teething, but in general human infants are significantly happier (and much quieter!) sleeping next to their mother, and unless a mother is either drunk or under the influence of some other substance, you're not going to crush your baby. I slept significantly more soundly and slept in a different bed. Putting your kid in a crib in a different room is a very weird, Victorian thing to do.
    - dkural 6y ago
      I respect your choice; I suggest that you may try doing the same for people putting their kids in cribs instead of calling it weird and Victorian - because studies show it to reduce infant deaths; and it is practiced widely across the World, not just Victorian England. It is not weird for a parent to choose something that is shown to be safer for their infant. Again, I respect co-sleeping too; you had a queen just for baby and momma, and seem to be attentive and amazing parents. Some parents may be heavier sleepers though! I think there are many ways to be a good parent. Different room is also associated with higher risk though in the first 6 months ~ ideally crib is in a room with a parent.
- balabaster 6y ago
  Well, I've got both of mine... but then, I always wanted kids. Their mom was biggest part of the issue. That's why I have them at every possible opportunity - which translates to: If I'm home, which I am most of the time, they're most likely with me.
- auslegung 6y ago
  Some people will stick around and some won't. I would avoid those who won't like the plague, not just as a potential significant other but even as a friend. I'm not saying that everyone who has lost custody of their child or doesn't see their child much is a horrible person, but I am saying that those people who aren't even _interested_ in raising their own children are not generally the kind of people I want influencing me. Parenthood is difficult, some people try really hard and it beats them, and there shouldn't be any shame in that, there should be help. I'm also not talking about people in that category.
- watwut 6y ago
  By selecting them before the kid is born.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Before conceived is even better.
- woohoojoo 6y ago
  custody battles, alimony laws, "committed, intimate relationship = you're now married against your will for living together" and other misandrist policies are responsible for demonstrating that men are typically desired only as a financial vehicle. courts & society don't care whether or not men are around to raise kids. if they did care, we wouldn't have such crooked, lopsided laws.
- ihsw 6y ago
  By enshrining the rights of fathers in law and destroying the ability of single mothers to go it alone.
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  Help them face the problems, emotions, and ways of thinking in their own life that are holding them back. Then they will be more prepared and excited to expand this practice of care outward, starting with those closest to them such as immediate family. Far easier said than done. It can take years.
- chub500 6y ago
  I will make a shameless plug for marriage. While it is obviously not foolproof, and can go bad just as swiftly as no marriage at all, it is still a good signal of commitment in a partner. If your partner desires to be married (not just to please you I might add) then at least at face value he desires commitment. It isn't just an idle ceremony but a contract and vows with family and friends witnessing ideally to hold you to account. Best of luck to your friend! ;)
- zo1 6y ago
  For the most part: Choose a male mate that has qualities which signal or are correlated with their likelihood to stick around afterwards and be a good parent. That would increase the likelihood of them staying (barring unexpected external factors to the dynamic). You can't just "magically" make people want something they don't want to, nor can you force them (you can see that with things like child-support payments).
- hvdfhbj 6y ago
  Choosing your husband more wisely, I suppose?
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  There are many men that do not want to sacrifice their pursuit of happiness for children. This is why almost half of US children are not raised under the same roof with their biological father.
  - throwaway5376 6y ago
    If you're still at a point in life where having children means "sacrificing your happiness", then you probably shouldn't be having children yet anyway (assuming it's a case where you're making a conscious decision on the matter). That's not a healthy starting point for either party.
  - vincentmarle 6y ago
    > This is why almost half of US children are not raised under the same roof with their biological father. Do you have any source on this? That's an interesting but shocking fact
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2020/comm/children-under-18-living-with-one-parent.html https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2020/comm/chil... I didn't expect to see similar proportions of children both living only with mother and only with father. In fact, 12 to 17 years of age is 44% only with father versus 36.6% only with mother. Not only do more teens live with their father only, but only 20% live with both parents?
      - vincentmarle 6y ago
        > only 20% live with both parents That's not the correct conclusion, the percentages add up to 100% for both the single mother and single father parent cohort, but it doesn't say anything about kids who are living with both parents.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
- itronitron 6y ago
  Accept that there is a training process, some men are willing to take lessons from their partner and some aren't. Also, regarding your friend's children... I know two adults who turned out to be very successful in life and in their careers despite having fathers that abandoned them at a young age.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  Depends. "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina_principle But I think the majority of cases could be covered by these two things: (1) Choose the right person; don't expect that someone will magically change after the kids are born. (2) Don't let your partner feel like a fifth wheel, or rather like a mere money machine, after the kids are born.
- flatline 6y ago
  From the article there are actually a number of weak correlates: a man with smaller testes, for example. But it concludes with the prefrontal cortex being the largest discriminator, all other factors considered. It would seem that picking a partner who is capable and willing to use rational thought to override emotional responses would be a successful strategy - more capable of dealing with the frustrating reality of childcare, less likely to leave in search of another mate.
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
> The bodies and brains of fathers, not just mothers, are transformed through the love and labour of raising a child There is a clear link in emotional bonding and hormonal changes of mothers associated with pregnancy and labour. At face value it sounds nice that fathers also experience hormonal changes due to bonding with their children. However, I couldn't find any reference to the confounding of fathers just experiencing a T drop _caused_ by sleep deprivation?
- jacobush 6y ago
  And for mothers?
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    There is a well estabilished hormonal link betwen pregnancy/labour and mother child bonding. [0] My point is that they seem to make the leap that a male equivalent _must_ exist for father bonding. What I question is if this hormonal change (T drop) in males is not just due to sleep deprivation, rather than some unknown/unclear male bonding mechanism. [0] https://www.nct.org.uk/labour-birth/your-guide-labour/hormones-labour-oxytocin-and-others-how-they-work https://www.nct.org.uk/labour-birth/your-guide-labour/hormon...
ncmncm 6y ago
Sleep deprivation has long been known to cause memory loss. My kids, in the early '00s, would only sleep in the daytime. I lost most of my '90s.
- andi999 6y ago
  thankfully everybody lost most of the '90s
  - oblio 6y ago
    Half this site is probably Millenials, which are 90's kids :-)
cosmic_shame 6y ago
My personal experience as a dad of a 16 month old: new, intense anxiety about what the future will look like for my child.
- kkwteh 6y ago
  Me too. Should I push them to win the shitty meritocracy tournament like I did? Or should I encourage them to follow their dreams and perhaps be more fulfilled? I'm leaning toward the latter.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I don’t know what fulfilled means, but my priority is to equip them with the abilities needed to shelter, feed, and otherwise obtain necessities for themselves. Which, for many people, ends up being participating in the “meritocracy tournament” to secure cash flow. But I let them know what the rules and parameters of the game are, and possible consequences of various actions. After that, it’s up to them to figure out their goals.
    - kkwteh 6y ago
      To put it another way, should I be like the infamous Tiger Mom and push my child to conform and get straight As, potentially with dire consequences, or should I develop her interests organically, hoping that they’ll find an unconventional path, fully knowing that they’ll be less likely to have a comfortable life? It’s a dilemma for me.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I think there’s a happy medium between Tiger Mom and a hippy parent that doesn’t instill survival skills. You don’t need straight As and 3 extracurriculars to earn money, but you also can’t explore your interests all day and follow your passion to secure your family’s future. I would try to suss out what kind of life they want. If they want to jet set and have fancy things, they need to do the things that get them high pay. If they’re okay clocking in and out and going home without stress and maximizing enjoyment in 20s, maybe do a trade or something. If they don’t care about having roommates for the rest of their life and what kind of school district their kids are in, then they can study art or do whatever they feel like. They should also be made aware that their potential mates will be affected by their lifestyle choices as well.
deleted 6y ago
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commandlinefan 6y ago
I was shocked how much more _patient_ I became - with everybody - after raising kids. It makes perfect sense, though: I had no choice but to learn relentless patience.
- djaychela 6y ago
  Ironically I spent over a decade in teaching (and about 5 years in a school with lots of pupils with SEND requirements), and then when I met my girlfriend and her 4 kids (who I've now been step-parent of for 10+ years), I was told how patient I was - teaching taught me it first, which was handy as I wasn't patient before... but it's definitely needed with kids.
  - yhoneycomb 6y ago
    Congratulations on being a step-parent for 10+ years! Unfortunately, much of society fails to recognize that we need compatible partners who love each other and will raise others' kids. It is a shame because it is truly important.
- epx 6y ago
  +1, I even started to "cry as a woman" after bad dreams or so. That started before the kid was born, even. My kid never had problems to sleep, he is by far more easygoing than either myself or even my wife, so I cannot blame external factors that forced me to be more patient or sympathetic. One basically gets a firmware upgrade when becomes a father.
  - mattgreenrocks 6y ago
    There's a quote along these lines: "the son parents the father." It's always stuck with me for reasons that I'm sure you can relate to.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  This is true for me as well. When my child was a few months old something clicked and the constant crying wasn't bothering me anymore. Since then, things that used to irk me are no longer affecting me. But I remember saying to myself that the baby isn't in control and they're not trying to be annoying on purpose, all babies cry (most of them of course) and there's no reason to get annoyed, it won't help me or anybody. I think it helped. Now at most I get a bit stressed out when the crying is very loud and incessant, but it does not register the way it used to. I remember the in first weeks I was a wreck and a lot of it was my own doing, I was anticipating the future distress and was getting annoyed in advance.
bluedays 6y ago
>Paradoxically, we found that fathers who activate the anterior cingulate the most when listening to infant crying report the most negative emotional responses to those cries, in particular being more likely to label the cry as spoiled or manipulative. How can greater engagement of a brain region associated with empathy be linked with such negative subjective reactions to the cry? We suspect it relates to a phenomenon known as ‘empathic overarousal’, in which an observer takes on the distress of another individual to such an extent that they become mired in personal distress, which in turn interferes with the motivation and ability to deliver compassionate care. There might be an optimal state of arousal and degree of empathy, neither too high nor too low, that facilitates sensitive and responsive fathering. I experienced this first hand. The newborn phase was really hard for me. I’m glad to know the reason for this, as I’ve always only ever understood it in a handwavy “male postpartum depression” sort of way
- ryanar 6y ago
  I read that too and was similarly interested. When babysitting our niece who is <1 year old over night, I was able to handle the incessant crying really well and try to figure out how to alleviate it, or just ride it out while holding her. My wife had to remove herself because it was causing her a ton of distress from hearing the crying. I wonder if she was experiencing this empathic overarousal.
  - auslegung 6y ago
    I remember spending lots of time with my nieces when they were newborns and infants, and their cries didn't bother me in the least. Now that I have my own, when my own children cry I most often want to punch a wall.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mattgreenrocks 6y ago
  Same experience. I wrote it off as a big change and sleep deprivation, but there were some days that the cries of my son seemed very difficult to deal with. I hadn't had much experience with newborns/babies prior. It could also be generalized anxiety. Mine would take uniquely weird forms, including awakening from a dead sleep convinced my son was buried/lost somewhere in the house. I'm convinced that the biological impulse to care/provide for babies is at the firmware-level of our impulses, and, as such, must be something that is acclimated to, rather than controlled by executive function.
_whiteCaps_ 6y ago
If there are any parents of newborns here, please read up on the Period of Purple Crying: http://purplecrying.info/ http://purplecrying.info/ This was one of the hardest times for me as a parent, and it was helpful to know that I wasn't alone. We were given a DVD about this from our public health nurse. Now I have a teenager, and oh boy, it's a whole new set of problems.
vagrantJin 6y ago
Funny because I was thinking about something similar to this for almost the whole of last week. I'm convinced men and women are equally capable of parenting but something is different. I still don't know what it is and the article postulates some interesting physiological connections but not quite hitting the right spot. But I might just be paranoid or an idiot unsure if he will be a good father or not. Men plan, the gods laugh.
carabiner 6y ago
I am so glad I had a vasectomy and that I never had kids. My life is unspoilt, and I celebrate it every day.
- ksdale 6y ago
  Your perspective indicates perhaps a bit of spoil... I think it's totally fine to not want children but thinking of them as spoiling anything by their existence feels to me as profoundly wrong as thinking of... well, a person as spoiling anything by their existence.
  - tacheiordache 6y ago
    Perhaps he was referring to something more physical as in her body being unspoiled. But I totally agree with you, nobody forces people to have children and the ones who have them by accident and hate it afterwards is clear they have not reached a maturity level or preparedness for being a parent and there's nothing wrong with it at all, people have choices. But ones who consider children spoils or as curses or burdens or thieves of their unmitigated freedoms they used to have prior, it's probably for the better to never have children for they would be neglected or maltreated one way or another.
    - ksdale 6y ago
      Thinking of your significant other's body being spoiled by childbearing is almost as bad as thinking of children's existence as spoiling things. Maybe worse.
      - tacheiordache 6y ago
        I agree.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  Obviously, to each their own. But what do you mean by your wife being unspoiled? The way you expressed yourself you make it sound like she's still a maiden.
ksdale 6y ago
"They seemed like ideal infant-caregivers: calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and athletes – think Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan – often associated with a masculine ideal." I became a father quite a bit before most of my friends, and so was the butt of some jokes about masculinity for the way I parented (purely just the poking fun between good, old friends), but perhaps as a result of fatherhood, where my former reaction to those jokes would have been embarrassment, my new reaction was to think that my friends were childish for not being able to understand how it felt to be a father who loved his children. Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle" for my family is far greater than my willingness to "go to battle" for anything before having a family, to an extent that becoming a father has made me far more assertive, confident, and willing to take responsibility, which makes me more "masculine" if you so happen to define masculinity that way...
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  > calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and athletes IMO this really describes almost everyone, not just fathers. There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and reality. Half of American men are fat whether they have a kid or not.
  - antisthenes 6y ago
    > There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and reality. As someone who isn't a native-born American, is that really your cultural ideal? Warriors and athletes? Because to an outsider that just seems...laughable at best, and for more reasons than just rampant obesity.
    - zarkov99 6y ago
      Why? What is your culture's cultural ideal?
brundolf 6y ago
I'd be curious to see a study on whether pet-parentship has some of the same chemical effects. Oxytocin obviously comes into it, and since having a dog I've found myself developing certain parental instincts. I had a realization the other day that for the first time in my life, I knew I would put myself in harm's way without a second thought if I had to.
ohitsdom 6y ago
If you enjoy this, I'd recommend The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell and John Gray. A lot of really interesting material on being a dad and specifically parenting boys (but a lot of the benefit also extends to women obviously). At first the material felt a little too "men's rights!" to me, but there really are a significant amount of culture deficiencies in raising men to be fathers.
hi41 6y ago
When we has our first child, it came as a total shock as to the amount of work that was needed. I was completely unprepared for it. Added to my wife’s work schedule and mine, I was stuck between changing diapers and kitchen. I absolutely HATED fatherhood. Did anyone have the same experience and how did you overcome the frustration to become a good father.
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  Babies aren't meant to be fun. I became a single dad when I had a baby and a two year old. Honestly, I don't think most men are wired for doing this role. The 4-5 years that followed were very difficult for me mentally. I was socially isolated, had no support (all support structures were mother orientated) and I had two really little kids to care for. I'm not sure if I changed, or it's simply easier for me now they're a bit older, but over time I had merged into this parenting role really well. My kids are both happy and well balanced, other kids and adults both like them and they're doing really well at school.
  - watwut 6y ago
    It is mentally difficult for mothers too. Like isolation, there is reason why the stereotype of woman used to be constantly on the phone. Or taking a lot after husband came from work. Single parenthood is even harder, it sounds that you have done good job with them.
    - MaximumYComb 6y ago
      Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it's not hard on mother's too. I meant that they seem to have a better hormonal reward system with babies. Mother's seem really happy cuddling their little ones and adult women tend to enjoy cuddling babies compare to adult men. I didn't have that same connection with mine so I didn't get reward, at the time, for my efforts.
      - watwut 6y ago
        I did not meant to imply that you implied, you did not. Just that the a lot of those frustrating and isolating aspects are not that you are less made or less capable for it, it is shared frustration and depression. Tho, advantage of being mom is that you can find other mom to complain to. I agree it is harder for men who are less likely to be in that position. Hormonal things are more after birth. Moms can also get "touched out" when you don't want touch anymore. Some of cuddling is really done because you know it is good for kids. I don't want to be the one who will say your experience of being uncomfortable more does not exists. It is way more ok for women to touch other women them males touching other males. These aspects are much different between genders. Imo, a lot of women specific socialization is really about teaching women how to break isolation etc. It is the thing I realized only after I had kids. A lot of stereotypes were actually adaptation.
CapitalistCartr 6y ago
I became a dad quite late in life, at 55. It's been an eye-opener. After several months I suddenly realized I'd kill and die for this little bundle. Then it occurred to me that most, if not all, of these parents walking around me are the same. Being a dad has led me to consider it carefully. I've concluded that, since humans are terrible at long-term planning, deferment of benefit, and putting the benefit of the group ahead of personal gain. So Darwin doesn't rely on any of that, or any decision-making at all. Parenting a baby/small child pushes a lot of major buttons in humans. Hard. Like no drug ever. It is its own reward, which is good; children aren't known for their gratefulness.
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
One aspect of fatherhood that surprised me is what I call the 'rescue response'. I was not able to find any formal information about this behavior, but I have to think there is something out there. I have experienced this exactly twice in my life on separate occasions: My child entered a physically and immediately dangerous situation. As soon as I saw their peril, my mind went into a kind of flow state. I didn't take time to weigh options, or consider any type of danger to myself, I simply reacted and before I could consider what was happening, I'd removed my kids from the peril. Later, in one case, I noticed I had bruises from my action. In the other, I received a call from the school principal. Likewise, my father saved my brother and I from drowning, and I believe he had the same 'rescue response'. As soon as he saw what was happening, he dived in from the pier and swam the 30 feet to retrieve us, only to realize that once he had us, he had no idea what to do next. Meanwhile, my aunt had calmly climbed into a nearby canoe and rowed out to assist. I don't claim this is strictly a father's behavior, or strictly a male behavior, but personally, I haven't had this identical reaction in the few times I've seen other peoples' kids in similar urgent peril. I have taken other action, such as alerting bystanders, but not immediately put myself into danger. I contemplated options first.
- mattgreenrocks 6y ago
  I've had this happen too, especially in potentially dangerous situations. It's as if time slows down and you have no room to fear, just act. Then there's the hangover afterward :)
  - MauranKilom 6y ago
    Adrenaline is a hell of a drug...
- drewcon 6y ago
  I have similar experiences whenever my kids have any kind of medium to high level accident (so to be clear not helicoptering every time they fall over). For whatever reason its like I go into immediate clinical triage mode. My two year old son ended up breaking his leg stepping off a short stool a couple years ago. My wife thought nothing of his crying but after ten minutes or so she called me while I was upstairs working. I immediately came down and sensed unordinary danger, triaged his leg and concluded it was a broken bone in about 20 seconds, and was off to the ER a minute later (he's fine!). But there is something that just kicks in and says "SOLVE THIS NOW".
portobell0 6y ago
The first episode of the Netflix show Babies covers almost exactly this material. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOv5jDFtvsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOv5jDFtvsI
lambda_obrien 6y ago
I agree with most of the comments here as a semi-new father, so I won't rehash then, but I really wish more people could experience the emotions and struggles of parenthood sooner, I think it makes a person realize what's important in life and causes one to mature quickly. I think people would be nicer to one another if they could be a parent for a year, at least.
- pavel_lishin 6y ago
  > I think people would be nicer to one another if they could be a parent for a year, at least. Eh. I've seen other parents be just as shitty as anyone else. I don't think parenthood is an empathy-panacea.
  - borroka 6y ago
    Exactly. How do we forget every time there are these conversations that most abuses happen in families? How do we forget about the victims of parental harassment, shaming, disinterest and violence? I don't know whether being a parent makes someone better or worse; but there are many parents who should have done something different that lazy Sunday afternoon.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - lambda_obrien 6y ago
    I just figured the shitty people are already shitty now, but a lot of people become better after they have kids, so it might be a net gain if more people had kids earlier, since they might become better people earlier. You are right there are shitty parents, but I think parenthood generally makes for a more mature person, on the statistical whole. Either way, it would be nice if people had to think about the care and feeding of others more often, so they might be less selfish after having seen how important a job it is to take care of another human with care and respect. Maybe even if people could take care of the elderly, it's a similar struggle to take care of a very old and enfeebled person.
mebr 6y ago
I'm going to be a dad in 2 weeks. I already feel the changes mentioned in the articles, i.e. higher oxytocin and lower. testosterone.
tmnstr85 6y ago
I've had the privilege of this experience twice, both girls. I'm 35 The first one, picture perfect. I could feel my body "go to battle" there was this sense of pride and drive. I felt like I was fulfilling a part of my life that was absolutely necessary. The second one, we failed. Pre-mature by 3 weeks. Bacterial meningitis within 4 days of her being home. She's here with us now but she suffers from global sensory deficits, CP and retardation. It was the polar opposite of my first experience. Pure torture. The biology of fatherhood is a powerful one, it can give - just as much as it can take. For anyone who's a father out there, without a connection to their child, especially a healthy one. You're missing out. For any fathers out there who have had to endure failure, you are not alone and those children need love too.
- blobbers 6y ago
  I just wanted to say something supportive. You didn't fail; a bacteria affected the situation more than modern medicine was capable of handling. I hope you're not blaming yourself.
  - tmnstr85 6y ago
    I've had two law offices, with two separate sets of medical experts all tell me that this did not happen in the hospital. We live in a day and age where critical thought forces you to ask the next question. Well, then where did she get sick, and who was in charge. Sometimes it is that simple.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    i just want to say that i second this. take care.
blobbers 6y ago
This lowering testosterone thing - does this explain the decline of athletes when they become parents? I don't know if a 20% decrease in testosterone has a material effect on the body's ability to produce and maintain muscle mass. Any Doctors out there? Does it explain the dad-bod?
russellbeattie 6y ago
I wasn't aware you could just give someone oxytocin via a nasal spray. That seems like it would be a pretty effective antidepressant. Sometimes I really feel like I just need a hug... Why don't they sell that stuff over the counter?
- belorn 6y ago
  Oxytocin has this wonderful effect of increasing pro-social behavior and reward response towards people that one identify as in-group. The drawback however is that a similar effect occur to our behavior towards members of the out-group, but with the effects of fear, lower pro-social behavior and lower rewards. It could have some problematic effects if given as an antidepressant.
mooredonna 6y ago
Vampires is not at all like in the movies or books. Sure, I understand. You are young you have the whole world open to you. You can be anything that you choose if you apply yourself and try hard to work toward that goal. But being a Vampire is not what it seems like. It’s a life full of good, and amazing things. We are as human as you are.. It’s not what you are that counts, But how you choose to be. Do you want a life full of interesting things? Do you want to have power and influence over others? To be charming and desirable? To have wealth, health, and longevity? kindly contact the vampire kingdom on their email worldofvampir@hotmail.com
lukewrites 6y ago
Interesting summary. Since fathers make unique contributions to the development of their children (eg language development [0] and social skills[1]), it makes sense that the children would also affect the fathers, if they're connected/"there" enough. Since I'm guessing there will be a bunch of parents in this thread, let me make a humble book recommendation: Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn The Myth of the Spoiled Child by Alfie Kohn Kohn is an education researcher who's kind of an iconoclast. His research has focused heavily on what _helps_ children gain the knowledge, academic wherewithal, and social-emotional skills to be successful in life. His results have been pretty surprising: Homework doesn't do much for children. "Time outs" are harmful. And the list goes on. I'm simultaneously reading Unconditional Parenting and The Myth of the Spoiled Child, which I'd recommend. The latter looks at American accepted wisdom about children (every generation thinks that their kids are dumber, lazier, and more mollycoddled than _they_ were) and makes some pretty interesting juxtapositions between what we say we want for our kids and how we treat them. 0 - https://fpg.unc.edu/sites/fpg.unc.edu/files/resources/snapshots/FPG_Snapshot34_2006.pdf https://fpg.unc.edu/sites/fpg.unc.edu/files/resources/snapsh... 1 - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/C_Lewis2/publication/226820170_Fathers'_influences_on_children's_development_The_evidence_from_two-parent_families/links/0046352c295fe633a2000000.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/C_Lewis2/publication/22...
1_over_n 6y ago
I remember reading an interesting study around adult bees reversing ageing markers when they where given larvae to look after. This implied some "ageing plasticity" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0531556512001258?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S05315... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014579310002760 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457931...
m23khan 6y ago
The studies are certainly interesting but as Father myself, I would chime in my 2 cents worth: - less sleep which causes elevated levels of stress which pushes you to eat unhealthy food more, combined with your Body's natural slowdown of digestive system as one ages (compounded by less sleep) will definitely hit Dad's biology quiet a lot for at least the first 3 years of a Child's life. - Icing on the cake is the hit it takes on Dad's IT career (if Dad is in IT) as he is unable to dedicate meaningful number of after-hours for his skill upgrading. - Modern Society (at least in Toronto Canada) places unreasonable expectations on Dads to partake in expensive/time-sink activities with their kids such as organized sports and other extracurricular activities as opposed to having kids in neighborhood naturally play at each other's house / local park. This to me is a problem because I am naturally inclined to work and focus on making money/getting promotion rather than extending my family time. - Raising a Child, especially in a society that is comprised of nuclear family structure and where Grandparents (Wife's Parents) are not geographically near causes immense pressure on both Parents. No wonder, people, especially immigrants in Toronto Canada, rarely have more than 1-2 kids...

The biology of dads

236 points by elsewhen 6y ago

zero_deg_kevin 6y ago

Any ideas on how to get them to stick around after their kids are born? Asking for a friend.

superflit 6y ago
Maybe remembering the fathers that after his kid is born there is a "hell" time of mostly 3-4 months where the baby will be adapting to you and vice-versa. Then the baby sleeps gets longer and you can have 6-8h of sleep. New fathers: Hold tight, after 3-4 months it gets way easier.
- auslegung 6y ago
  In my experience it's a lot longer than 3-4 months. Or perhaps it's hell for 3-4 months, then just purgatory for another couple of years. I have a 4-yo and 2.5-yo and my sleep has still not recovered. Just last night one of them woke up screaming, and this continues to happen about weekly. Being woken up in the middle of the night is one thing, being woken up in the middle of the night to the banshee screams of a young child is quite another.
  - jnwatson 6y ago
    It varies widely. My kid has slept through the night since about 4 weeks old. The more kids you have, the more likely you are to get a fussy one.
  - zrail 6y ago
    This rhymes with my experience. My 4.5yo only wakes up when she's sick but my 2yo wakes up at least once a night almost every night. Last night was the first time in weeks where she didn't, but then of course my body has been trained to respond to her so I didn't sleep well.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    My mother, at 76 years old, to me at 56 years old and (former) stay-at-home parent: "oh, the first 40 years are the hardest".
  - pavel_lishin 6y ago
    Seconding this. It wasn't until she turned four that we could assume that we would sleep through the night, instead of vice versa. Takes a long time for the exception to become the rule.
- x87678r 6y ago
  Just wait until they're 16 and aren't home by midnight and not answering phone.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Yeah, but at that point it's kind of out of your control. You've probably provided 95% of the guidance you could have provided and they're almost grown-ups. I understand the attachment, but at some point you have to let go and life is full of risks (and interesting things). Though I doubt my reasoning will assuage any parental fears :-)
    - x87678r 6y ago
      > Though I doubt my reasoning will assuage any parental fears :-) Yeah how many teenagers do you parent? :)
      - oblio 6y ago
        None, yet. I do consider that I know myself well enough but we'll see in a bunch of years :-))
- zo1 6y ago
  It gets better after 1 years, then gets better after 2, and so on. Especially once they become autonomous and self-sustaining and you can reason with them using words. Then it's absolute rewarding bliss and frustrating chaos all at the same time.
  - serpix 6y ago
    at the 8 year mark I have yet to experience this reasoning with words you speak of.
- wincy 6y ago
  My wife and I had two queen sized beds, I slept on one, and our infant and my wife on the other. We coslept and my wife breast fed ad libitum. People kept asking me if I was tired, and I was confused about what they meant. I remember her once commenting "it's so amazing, she (our daughter) sleeps through the night without feeding!" to which I replied, "no, she makes a small fuss and you roll over and pop a boob in her mouth"! Wife wasn't even aware it was happening, and we were well rested and happy. On the downside, breast feeding ad libitum basically meant my wife's full time job was to breast feed, we went on a date after our kid was a few months old and we had to cut it short because she was sore and it was feeding time. She estimates she spent 40+ hours a week breastfeeding. She played a lot of video games with our daughter latched on, since it could be pretty boring. Like any parents, we had a few "hell nights" when she was sick or teething, but in general human infants are significantly happier (and much quieter!) sleeping next to their mother, and unless a mother is either drunk or under the influence of some other substance, you're not going to crush your baby. I slept significantly more soundly and slept in a different bed. Putting your kid in a crib in a different room is a very weird, Victorian thing to do.
  - dkural 6y ago
    I respect your choice; I suggest that you may try doing the same for people putting their kids in cribs instead of calling it weird and Victorian - because studies show it to reduce infant deaths; and it is practiced widely across the World, not just Victorian England. It is not weird for a parent to choose something that is shown to be safer for their infant. Again, I respect co-sleeping too; you had a queen just for baby and momma, and seem to be attentive and amazing parents. Some parents may be heavier sleepers though! I think there are many ways to be a good parent. Different room is also associated with higher risk though in the first 6 months ~ ideally crib is in a room with a parent.
balabaster 6y ago
Well, I've got both of mine... but then, I always wanted kids. Their mom was biggest part of the issue. That's why I have them at every possible opportunity - which translates to: If I'm home, which I am most of the time, they're most likely with me.
auslegung 6y ago
Some people will stick around and some won't. I would avoid those who won't like the plague, not just as a potential significant other but even as a friend. I'm not saying that everyone who has lost custody of their child or doesn't see their child much is a horrible person, but I am saying that those people who aren't even _interested_ in raising their own children are not generally the kind of people I want influencing me. Parenthood is difficult, some people try really hard and it beats them, and there shouldn't be any shame in that, there should be help. I'm also not talking about people in that category.
watwut 6y ago
By selecting them before the kid is born.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Before conceived is even better.
woohoojoo 6y ago
custody battles, alimony laws, "committed, intimate relationship = you're now married against your will for living together" and other misandrist policies are responsible for demonstrating that men are typically desired only as a financial vehicle. courts & society don't care whether or not men are around to raise kids. if they did care, we wouldn't have such crooked, lopsided laws.
ihsw 6y ago
By enshrining the rights of fathers in law and destroying the ability of single mothers to go it alone.
dwaltrip 6y ago
Help them face the problems, emotions, and ways of thinking in their own life that are holding them back. Then they will be more prepared and excited to expand this practice of care outward, starting with those closest to them such as immediate family. Far easier said than done. It can take years.
chub500 6y ago
I will make a shameless plug for marriage. While it is obviously not foolproof, and can go bad just as swiftly as no marriage at all, it is still a good signal of commitment in a partner. If your partner desires to be married (not just to please you I might add) then at least at face value he desires commitment. It isn't just an idle ceremony but a contract and vows with family and friends witnessing ideally to hold you to account. Best of luck to your friend! ;)
zo1 6y ago
For the most part: Choose a male mate that has qualities which signal or are correlated with their likelihood to stick around afterwards and be a good parent. That would increase the likelihood of them staying (barring unexpected external factors to the dynamic). You can't just "magically" make people want something they don't want to, nor can you force them (you can see that with things like child-support payments).
hvdfhbj 6y ago
Choosing your husband more wisely, I suppose?
mensetmanusman 6y ago
There are many men that do not want to sacrifice their pursuit of happiness for children. This is why almost half of US children are not raised under the same roof with their biological father.
- throwaway5376 6y ago
  If you're still at a point in life where having children means "sacrificing your happiness", then you probably shouldn't be having children yet anyway (assuming it's a case where you're making a conscious decision on the matter). That's not a healthy starting point for either party.
- vincentmarle 6y ago
  > This is why almost half of US children are not raised under the same roof with their biological father. Do you have any source on this? That's an interesting but shocking fact
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2020/comm/children-under-18-living-with-one-parent.html https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2020/comm/chil... I didn't expect to see similar proportions of children both living only with mother and only with father. In fact, 12 to 17 years of age is 44% only with father versus 36.6% only with mother. Not only do more teens live with their father only, but only 20% live with both parents?
    - vincentmarle 6y ago
      > only 20% live with both parents That's not the correct conclusion, the percentages add up to 100% for both the single mother and single father parent cohort, but it doesn't say anything about kids who are living with both parents.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
itronitron 6y ago
Accept that there is a training process, some men are willing to take lessons from their partner and some aren't. Also, regarding your friend's children... I know two adults who turned out to be very successful in life and in their careers despite having fathers that abandoned them at a young age.
Viliam1234 6y ago
Depends. "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina_principle But I think the majority of cases could be covered by these two things: (1) Choose the right person; don't expect that someone will magically change after the kids are born. (2) Don't let your partner feel like a fifth wheel, or rather like a mere money machine, after the kids are born.
flatline 6y ago
From the article there are actually a number of weak correlates: a man with smaller testes, for example. But it concludes with the prefrontal cortex being the largest discriminator, all other factors considered. It would seem that picking a partner who is capable and willing to use rational thought to override emotional responses would be a successful strategy - more capable of dealing with the frustrating reality of childcare, less likely to leave in search of another mate.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

> The bodies and brains of fathers, not just mothers, are transformed through the love and labour of raising a child There is a clear link in emotional bonding and hormonal changes of mothers associated with pregnancy and labour. At face value it sounds nice that fathers also experience hormonal changes due to bonding with their children. However, I couldn't find any reference to the confounding of fathers just experiencing a T drop _caused_ by sleep deprivation?

jacobush 6y ago
And for mothers?
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  There is a well estabilished hormonal link betwen pregnancy/labour and mother child bonding. [0] My point is that they seem to make the leap that a male equivalent _must_ exist for father bonding. What I question is if this hormonal change (T drop) in males is not just due to sleep deprivation, rather than some unknown/unclear male bonding mechanism. [0] https://www.nct.org.uk/labour-birth/your-guide-labour/hormones-labour-oxytocin-and-others-how-they-work https://www.nct.org.uk/labour-birth/your-guide-labour/hormon...

ncmncm 6y ago

Sleep deprivation has long been known to cause memory loss. My kids, in the early '00s, would only sleep in the daytime. I lost most of my '90s.

andi999 6y ago
thankfully everybody lost most of the '90s
- oblio 6y ago
  Half this site is probably Millenials, which are 90's kids :-)

cosmic_shame 6y ago

My personal experience as a dad of a 16 month old: new, intense anxiety about what the future will look like for my child.

kkwteh 6y ago
Me too. Should I push them to win the shitty meritocracy tournament like I did? Or should I encourage them to follow their dreams and perhaps be more fulfilled? I'm leaning toward the latter.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  I don’t know what fulfilled means, but my priority is to equip them with the abilities needed to shelter, feed, and otherwise obtain necessities for themselves. Which, for many people, ends up being participating in the “meritocracy tournament” to secure cash flow. But I let them know what the rules and parameters of the game are, and possible consequences of various actions. After that, it’s up to them to figure out their goals.
  - kkwteh 6y ago
    To put it another way, should I be like the infamous Tiger Mom and push my child to conform and get straight As, potentially with dire consequences, or should I develop her interests organically, hoping that they’ll find an unconventional path, fully knowing that they’ll be less likely to have a comfortable life? It’s a dilemma for me.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      I think there’s a happy medium between Tiger Mom and a hippy parent that doesn’t instill survival skills. You don’t need straight As and 3 extracurriculars to earn money, but you also can’t explore your interests all day and follow your passion to secure your family’s future. I would try to suss out what kind of life they want. If they want to jet set and have fancy things, they need to do the things that get them high pay. If they’re okay clocking in and out and going home without stress and maximizing enjoyment in 20s, maybe do a trade or something. If they don’t care about having roommates for the rest of their life and what kind of school district their kids are in, then they can study art or do whatever they feel like. They should also be made aware that their potential mates will be affected by their lifestyle choices as well.

deleted 6y ago

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commandlinefan 6y ago

I was shocked how much more _patient_ I became - with everybody - after raising kids. It makes perfect sense, though: I had no choice but to learn relentless patience.

djaychela 6y ago
Ironically I spent over a decade in teaching (and about 5 years in a school with lots of pupils with SEND requirements), and then when I met my girlfriend and her 4 kids (who I've now been step-parent of for 10+ years), I was told how patient I was - teaching taught me it first, which was handy as I wasn't patient before... but it's definitely needed with kids.
- yhoneycomb 6y ago
  Congratulations on being a step-parent for 10+ years! Unfortunately, much of society fails to recognize that we need compatible partners who love each other and will raise others' kids. It is a shame because it is truly important.
epx 6y ago
+1, I even started to "cry as a woman" after bad dreams or so. That started before the kid was born, even. My kid never had problems to sleep, he is by far more easygoing than either myself or even my wife, so I cannot blame external factors that forced me to be more patient or sympathetic. One basically gets a firmware upgrade when becomes a father.
- mattgreenrocks 6y ago
  There's a quote along these lines: "the son parents the father." It's always stuck with me for reasons that I'm sure you can relate to.
onemoresoop 6y ago
This is true for me as well. When my child was a few months old something clicked and the constant crying wasn't bothering me anymore. Since then, things that used to irk me are no longer affecting me. But I remember saying to myself that the baby isn't in control and they're not trying to be annoying on purpose, all babies cry (most of them of course) and there's no reason to get annoyed, it won't help me or anybody. I think it helped. Now at most I get a bit stressed out when the crying is very loud and incessant, but it does not register the way it used to. I remember the in first weeks I was a wreck and a lot of it was my own doing, I was anticipating the future distress and was getting annoyed in advance.

bluedays 6y ago

>Paradoxically, we found that fathers who activate the anterior cingulate the most when listening to infant crying report the most negative emotional responses to those cries, in particular being more likely to label the cry as spoiled or manipulative. How can greater engagement of a brain region associated with empathy be linked with such negative subjective reactions to the cry? We suspect it relates to a phenomenon known as ‘empathic overarousal’, in which an observer takes on the distress of another individual to such an extent that they become mired in personal distress, which in turn interferes with the motivation and ability to deliver compassionate care. There might be an optimal state of arousal and degree of empathy, neither too high nor too low, that facilitates sensitive and responsive fathering. I experienced this first hand. The newborn phase was really hard for me. I’m glad to know the reason for this, as I’ve always only ever understood it in a handwavy “male postpartum depression” sort of way

ryanar 6y ago
I read that too and was similarly interested. When babysitting our niece who is <1 year old over night, I was able to handle the incessant crying really well and try to figure out how to alleviate it, or just ride it out while holding her. My wife had to remove herself because it was causing her a ton of distress from hearing the crying. I wonder if she was experiencing this empathic overarousal.
- auslegung 6y ago
  I remember spending lots of time with my nieces when they were newborns and infants, and their cries didn't bother me in the least. Now that I have my own, when my own children cry I most often want to punch a wall.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mattgreenrocks 6y ago
Same experience. I wrote it off as a big change and sleep deprivation, but there were some days that the cries of my son seemed very difficult to deal with. I hadn't had much experience with newborns/babies prior. It could also be generalized anxiety. Mine would take uniquely weird forms, including awakening from a dead sleep convinced my son was buried/lost somewhere in the house. I'm convinced that the biological impulse to care/provide for babies is at the firmware-level of our impulses, and, as such, must be something that is acclimated to, rather than controlled by executive function.

_whiteCaps_ 6y ago

If there are any parents of newborns here, please read up on the Period of Purple Crying: http://purplecrying.info/ http://purplecrying.info/ This was one of the hardest times for me as a parent, and it was helpful to know that I wasn't alone. We were given a DVD about this from our public health nurse. Now I have a teenager, and oh boy, it's a whole new set of problems.

vagrantJin 6y ago

Funny because I was thinking about something similar to this for almost the whole of last week. I'm convinced men and women are equally capable of parenting but something is different. I still don't know what it is and the article postulates some interesting physiological connections but not quite hitting the right spot. But I might just be paranoid or an idiot unsure if he will be a good father or not. Men plan, the gods laugh.

carabiner 6y ago

I am so glad I had a vasectomy and that I never had kids. My life is unspoilt, and I celebrate it every day.

ksdale 6y ago
Your perspective indicates perhaps a bit of spoil... I think it's totally fine to not want children but thinking of them as spoiling anything by their existence feels to me as profoundly wrong as thinking of... well, a person as spoiling anything by their existence.
- tacheiordache 6y ago
  Perhaps he was referring to something more physical as in her body being unspoiled. But I totally agree with you, nobody forces people to have children and the ones who have them by accident and hate it afterwards is clear they have not reached a maturity level or preparedness for being a parent and there's nothing wrong with it at all, people have choices. But ones who consider children spoils or as curses or burdens or thieves of their unmitigated freedoms they used to have prior, it's probably for the better to never have children for they would be neglected or maltreated one way or another.
  - ksdale 6y ago
    Thinking of your significant other's body being spoiled by childbearing is almost as bad as thinking of children's existence as spoiling things. Maybe worse.
    - tacheiordache 6y ago
      I agree.
onemoresoop 6y ago
Obviously, to each their own. But what do you mean by your wife being unspoiled? The way you expressed yourself you make it sound like she's still a maiden.

ksdale 6y ago

"They seemed like ideal infant-caregivers: calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and athletes – think Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan – often associated with a masculine ideal." I became a father quite a bit before most of my friends, and so was the butt of some jokes about masculinity for the way I parented (purely just the poking fun between good, old friends), but perhaps as a result of fatherhood, where my former reaction to those jokes would have been embarrassment, my new reaction was to think that my friends were childish for not being able to understand how it felt to be a father who loved his children. Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle" for my family is far greater than my willingness to "go to battle" for anything before having a family, to an extent that becoming a father has made me far more assertive, confident, and willing to take responsibility, which makes me more "masculine" if you so happen to define masculinity that way...

rootusrootus 6y ago
> calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and athletes IMO this really describes almost everyone, not just fathers. There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and reality. Half of American men are fat whether they have a kid or not.
- antisthenes 6y ago
  > There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and reality. As someone who isn't a native-born American, is that really your cultural ideal? Warriors and athletes? Because to an outsider that just seems...laughable at best, and for more reasons than just rampant obesity.
  - zarkov99 6y ago
    Why? What is your culture's cultural ideal?

brundolf 6y ago

I'd be curious to see a study on whether pet-parentship has some of the same chemical effects. Oxytocin obviously comes into it, and since having a dog I've found myself developing certain parental instincts. I had a realization the other day that for the first time in my life, I knew I would put myself in harm's way without a second thought if I had to.

ohitsdom 6y ago

If you enjoy this, I'd recommend The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell and John Gray. A lot of really interesting material on being a dad and specifically parenting boys (but a lot of the benefit also extends to women obviously). At first the material felt a little too "men's rights!" to me, but there really are a significant amount of culture deficiencies in raising men to be fathers.

hi41 6y ago

When we has our first child, it came as a total shock as to the amount of work that was needed. I was completely unprepared for it. Added to my wife’s work schedule and mine, I was stuck between changing diapers and kitchen. I absolutely HATED fatherhood. Did anyone have the same experience and how did you overcome the frustration to become a good father.

MaximumYComb 6y ago
Babies aren't meant to be fun. I became a single dad when I had a baby and a two year old. Honestly, I don't think most men are wired for doing this role. The 4-5 years that followed were very difficult for me mentally. I was socially isolated, had no support (all support structures were mother orientated) and I had two really little kids to care for. I'm not sure if I changed, or it's simply easier for me now they're a bit older, but over time I had merged into this parenting role really well. My kids are both happy and well balanced, other kids and adults both like them and they're doing really well at school.
- watwut 6y ago
  It is mentally difficult for mothers too. Like isolation, there is reason why the stereotype of woman used to be constantly on the phone. Or taking a lot after husband came from work. Single parenthood is even harder, it sounds that you have done good job with them.
  - MaximumYComb 6y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it's not hard on mother's too. I meant that they seem to have a better hormonal reward system with babies. Mother's seem really happy cuddling their little ones and adult women tend to enjoy cuddling babies compare to adult men. I didn't have that same connection with mine so I didn't get reward, at the time, for my efforts.
    - watwut 6y ago
      I did not meant to imply that you implied, you did not. Just that the a lot of those frustrating and isolating aspects are not that you are less made or less capable for it, it is shared frustration and depression. Tho, advantage of being mom is that you can find other mom to complain to. I agree it is harder for men who are less likely to be in that position. Hormonal things are more after birth. Moms can also get "touched out" when you don't want touch anymore. Some of cuddling is really done because you know it is good for kids. I don't want to be the one who will say your experience of being uncomfortable more does not exists. It is way more ok for women to touch other women them males touching other males. These aspects are much different between genders. Imo, a lot of women specific socialization is really about teaching women how to break isolation etc. It is the thing I realized only after I had kids. A lot of stereotypes were actually adaptation.

CapitalistCartr 6y ago

I became a dad quite late in life, at 55. It's been an eye-opener. After several months I suddenly realized I'd kill and die for this little bundle. Then it occurred to me that most, if not all, of these parents walking around me are the same. Being a dad has led me to consider it carefully. I've concluded that, since humans are terrible at long-term planning, deferment of benefit, and putting the benefit of the group ahead of personal gain. So Darwin doesn't rely on any of that, or any decision-making at all. Parenting a baby/small child pushes a lot of major buttons in humans. Hard. Like no drug ever. It is its own reward, which is good; children aren't known for their gratefulness.

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

One aspect of fatherhood that surprised me is what I call the 'rescue response'. I was not able to find any formal information about this behavior, but I have to think there is something out there. I have experienced this exactly twice in my life on separate occasions: My child entered a physically and immediately dangerous situation. As soon as I saw their peril, my mind went into a kind of flow state. I didn't take time to weigh options, or consider any type of danger to myself, I simply reacted and before I could consider what was happening, I'd removed my kids from the peril. Later, in one case, I noticed I had bruises from my action. In the other, I received a call from the school principal. Likewise, my father saved my brother and I from drowning, and I believe he had the same 'rescue response'. As soon as he saw what was happening, he dived in from the pier and swam the 30 feet to retrieve us, only to realize that once he had us, he had no idea what to do next. Meanwhile, my aunt had calmly climbed into a nearby canoe and rowed out to assist. I don't claim this is strictly a father's behavior, or strictly a male behavior, but personally, I haven't had this identical reaction in the few times I've seen other peoples' kids in similar urgent peril. I have taken other action, such as alerting bystanders, but not immediately put myself into danger. I contemplated options first.

mattgreenrocks 6y ago
I've had this happen too, especially in potentially dangerous situations. It's as if time slows down and you have no room to fear, just act. Then there's the hangover afterward :)
- MauranKilom 6y ago
  Adrenaline is a hell of a drug...
drewcon 6y ago
I have similar experiences whenever my kids have any kind of medium to high level accident (so to be clear not helicoptering every time they fall over). For whatever reason its like I go into immediate clinical triage mode. My two year old son ended up breaking his leg stepping off a short stool a couple years ago. My wife thought nothing of his crying but after ten minutes or so she called me while I was upstairs working. I immediately came down and sensed unordinary danger, triaged his leg and concluded it was a broken bone in about 20 seconds, and was off to the ER a minute later (he's fine!). But there is something that just kicks in and says "SOLVE THIS NOW".

portobell0 6y ago

The first episode of the Netflix show Babies covers almost exactly this material. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOv5jDFtvsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOv5jDFtvsI

lambda_obrien 6y ago

I agree with most of the comments here as a semi-new father, so I won't rehash then, but I really wish more people could experience the emotions and struggles of parenthood sooner, I think it makes a person realize what's important in life and causes one to mature quickly. I think people would be nicer to one another if they could be a parent for a year, at least.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
> I think people would be nicer to one another if they could be a parent for a year, at least. Eh. I've seen other parents be just as shitty as anyone else. I don't think parenthood is an empathy-panacea.
- borroka 6y ago
  Exactly. How do we forget every time there are these conversations that most abuses happen in families? How do we forget about the victims of parental harassment, shaming, disinterest and violence? I don't know whether being a parent makes someone better or worse; but there are many parents who should have done something different that lazy Sunday afternoon.
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- lambda_obrien 6y ago
  I just figured the shitty people are already shitty now, but a lot of people become better after they have kids, so it might be a net gain if more people had kids earlier, since they might become better people earlier. You are right there are shitty parents, but I think parenthood generally makes for a more mature person, on the statistical whole. Either way, it would be nice if people had to think about the care and feeding of others more often, so they might be less selfish after having seen how important a job it is to take care of another human with care and respect. Maybe even if people could take care of the elderly, it's a similar struggle to take care of a very old and enfeebled person.

mebr 6y ago

I'm going to be a dad in 2 weeks. I already feel the changes mentioned in the articles, i.e. higher oxytocin and lower. testosterone.

tmnstr85 6y ago

I've had the privilege of this experience twice, both girls. I'm 35 The first one, picture perfect. I could feel my body "go to battle" there was this sense of pride and drive. I felt like I was fulfilling a part of my life that was absolutely necessary. The second one, we failed. Pre-mature by 3 weeks. Bacterial meningitis within 4 days of her being home. She's here with us now but she suffers from global sensory deficits, CP and retardation. It was the polar opposite of my first experience. Pure torture. The biology of fatherhood is a powerful one, it can give - just as much as it can take. For anyone who's a father out there, without a connection to their child, especially a healthy one. You're missing out. For any fathers out there who have had to endure failure, you are not alone and those children need love too.

blobbers 6y ago
I just wanted to say something supportive. You didn't fail; a bacteria affected the situation more than modern medicine was capable of handling. I hope you're not blaming yourself.
- tmnstr85 6y ago
  I've had two law offices, with two separate sets of medical experts all tell me that this did not happen in the hospital. We live in a day and age where critical thought forces you to ask the next question. Well, then where did she get sick, and who was in charge. Sometimes it is that simple.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  i just want to say that i second this. take care.

blobbers 6y ago

This lowering testosterone thing - does this explain the decline of athletes when they become parents? I don't know if a 20% decrease in testosterone has a material effect on the body's ability to produce and maintain muscle mass. Any Doctors out there? Does it explain the dad-bod?

russellbeattie 6y ago

I wasn't aware you could just give someone oxytocin via a nasal spray. That seems like it would be a pretty effective antidepressant. Sometimes I really feel like I just need a hug... Why don't they sell that stuff over the counter?

belorn 6y ago
Oxytocin has this wonderful effect of increasing pro-social behavior and reward response towards people that one identify as in-group. The drawback however is that a similar effect occur to our behavior towards members of the out-group, but with the effects of fear, lower pro-social behavior and lower rewards. It could have some problematic effects if given as an antidepressant.

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lukewrites 6y ago

Interesting summary. Since fathers make unique contributions to the development of their children (eg language development [0] and social skills[1]), it makes sense that the children would also affect the fathers, if they're connected/"there" enough. Since I'm guessing there will be a bunch of parents in this thread, let me make a humble book recommendation: Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn The Myth of the Spoiled Child by Alfie Kohn Kohn is an education researcher who's kind of an iconoclast. His research has focused heavily on what _helps_ children gain the knowledge, academic wherewithal, and social-emotional skills to be successful in life. His results have been pretty surprising: Homework doesn't do much for children. "Time outs" are harmful. And the list goes on. I'm simultaneously reading Unconditional Parenting and The Myth of the Spoiled Child, which I'd recommend. The latter looks at American accepted wisdom about children (every generation thinks that their kids are dumber, lazier, and more mollycoddled than _they_ were) and makes some pretty interesting juxtapositions between what we say we want for our kids and how we treat them. 0 - https://fpg.unc.edu/sites/fpg.unc.edu/files/resources/snapshots/FPG_Snapshot34_2006.pdf https://fpg.unc.edu/sites/fpg.unc.edu/files/resources/snapsh... 1 - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/C_Lewis2/publication/226820170_Fathers'_influences_on_children's_development_The_evidence_from_two-parent_families/links/0046352c295fe633a2000000.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/C_Lewis2/publication/22...

1_over_n 6y ago

I remember reading an interesting study around adult bees reversing ageing markers when they where given larvae to look after. This implied some "ageing plasticity" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0531556512001258?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S05315... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014579310002760 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457931...

m23khan 6y ago

The studies are certainly interesting but as Father myself, I would chime in my 2 cents worth: - less sleep which causes elevated levels of stress which pushes you to eat unhealthy food more, combined with your Body's natural slowdown of digestive system as one ages (compounded by less sleep) will definitely hit Dad's biology quiet a lot for at least the first 3 years of a Child's life. - Icing on the cake is the hit it takes on Dad's IT career (if Dad is in IT) as he is unable to dedicate meaningful number of after-hours for his skill upgrading. - Modern Society (at least in Toronto Canada) places unreasonable expectations on Dads to partake in expensive/time-sink activities with their kids such as organized sports and other extracurricular activities as opposed to having kids in neighborhood naturally play at each other's house / local park. This to me is a problem because I am naturally inclined to work and focus on making money/getting promotion rather than extending my family time. - Raising a Child, especially in a society that is comprised of nuclear family structure and where Grandparents (Wife's Parents) are not geographically near causes immense pressure on both Parents. No wonder, people, especially immigrants in Toronto Canada, rarely have more than 1-2 kids...