16 ms·

Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their attachment to their macs and apple. It used to be it just works, i don't have time to tinker. Now you ha

Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their attachment to their macs and apple. It used to be it just works, i don't have time to tinker. Now you have to get your hands dirty for no particular reason other than apple wants to revamp everything in order to secure a new milkcow for the next generation. Come back to linux!

coldtea 6y ago
>Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their attachment to their macs and apple. Probably because going to these lengths is rare, and people will just service/replace the ocassional problematic machine. Whereas in Linux land this is much more common, and you're on your own commercial support wise (and with friendly forums to guide you).
- kache_ 6y ago
  At least with Linux you can actually fix it
  - coldtea 6y ago
    If you know how, have time, don't have an opportunity cost/better things....
    - 10000truths 6y ago
      There's also a pretty big opportunity/time/effort cost to contacting Apple support, describing your problem, fighting with them over whether the defect is covered under warranty, actually packaging the thing and shipping it to them, waiting for the fix/replacement, hoping the replacement isn't similarly screwed up, and setting up all your programs and files again when they 'fix' the problem by wiping your machine or giving you a new one.
      - vladvasiliu 6y ago
        That's correct, but as a parent said, this kind of issue is very rare. I can't actually remember another mac os upgrade actually bricking machines. I may be wrong, though. What's way more common is random hardware failures, unrelated to the OS. I've never had to deal with apple support and hope I'll never have to, but HP enterprise support isn't frictionless either. A colleague of mine had a swollen battery, which wasn't user replaceable (guess not only Apple has bright ideas). He called up the support, which went relatively fine but in the end he had to send the computer in for repairs for two weeks and was advised to save his data as the machine would be wiped. Luckily removing the SSD was possible and didn't void the warranty...
        Symbiote 6y ago
        In my experience, "Not user replaceable" on enterprise laptops means a few normal screws release the back cover to get access to the battery. The next business day, on-site support presumably costs extra. (We have it for servers, but I don't deal with laptops until they're out of warranty.)
      - abawany 6y ago
        I'm sad to say my experiences with Apple support for my work laptops have been palpably worse than my dealings with my state's DMV (to use the stereotype of 'bad customer service'). I am currently stuck waiting for a screen replacement for a 6 month old 16" MBP (something that was promised in 3 days but I found today, after 4 calls and as many answers, that it might be ready this week); I'm using a 4+ year old MBP in the meantime - the latter needs a battery replacement but my numerous encounters with Apple support/Store have made me generally allergic to dealing with them. If there's a magical Apple cs experience that exists, it certainly has eluded me every time. Edit0: syntax.
  - medium_burrito 6y ago
    And if I had endless time, presumably I could reach englightenment, with seems like a better use of my time.
- owenwil 6y ago
  I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every other update rare.
  - acdha 6y ago
    They don’t happen on every other update, or even every tenth update. You’re hearing from a small self-selected population of users who had undiagnosed hardware issues, dodgy power, hacked up system config, etc. and generalizing it to the vast majority of users who clicked install and resumed working 20 minutes later.
  - kalleboo 6y ago
    I've been using Macs for 29 years, only one update has gone bad (El Capitan after updating, the boot would never complete. I restored from Time Machine, and did a clean install, then it worked fine). Hardly "every other update". Meanwhile I've hosed so many Linux installs by somehow getting mismatched package versions
  - coldtea 6y ago
    I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every other update anything but rare. And I've been using Macs since 2003 (along with Linux, Windows, etc). It's the effect of: (1) millions of Macs updating at the same time (fastest OS updates in the industry) vs a smaller number of Linux users scattered upon every distro and updating at random piecemeal intervals (and Windows users fragmented into 2000000 possible configurations and OEMS, with different pain points and issues, that nobody cares for, and is not newsworthy, plus the blame can be dilluted between MS and the PC vendor.). (2) Apple doing bolder changes with releases than Windows or Linux does (adopting new things faster, custom processors and co-processors and SOCs, whole new languages, new filesystems, etc), so risking more problems. (3) Apple news sell (few would care for "Asus botched the production run of one of its 200 models"), so they magnify the issues that 1000 or 10,000 people see as if they concern 100,000,000+ users (or half a billion in the case of iOS). (4) Hackers and tinkerers being angry that they're not pandered by Apple, as if they ever were the target group for Macs, and as if curation and the concept of the walled garden is not central to macOS/iOS (in the positive light: not "I can't get off the garden" but "it's a peaceful garden where I can focus on X things, creeps, crazy people, junkies, etc don't get to screw around -- and yes, this means that to achieve that I can't do any arbitrary thing I might want either").
owenwil 6y ago
Trust me, I don’t usually care and would have given up – I think it was way too difficult to fix this. I’ve written extensively about switching from macOS to Windows and much prefer using a PC personally: https://char.gd/blog/2019/the-state-of-switching-to-windows-from-mac-in-2019 https://char.gd/blog/2019/the-state-of-switching-to-windows-... In this case, however, my job requires I use the Mac issued to me so y’know, it was in my interest to get it going again while I waited for a replacement.
- bentcorner 6y ago
  I use a Windows PC and need to use a Mac occasionally for my work. I keep delaying updates on the Mac because I'm terrified of it not coming back up, and I don't know a ton about MacOS. It doesn't help that the Mac is currently remote and I'm working from home.
dstick 6y ago
You are spot on. The big advantage Apple had is slowly fading away: quality control. First the keyboards, now this. As a freelance developer, my MacBook Pro is my livelihood. It’s dependence, great support and MacOS / Linux CLI was it’s main feature. Now it’s gotten to the point where you’re better off waiting 4 years before buying a new product line so the general public beta tested it long enough. I’m getting a lot of Microsoft in the 90’s vibes from Apple these days. Anyone else as well?
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  Being dependent on one device, as a professional? Backups, spares and insurance are not best practices, they are the basic cost of doing business. Using the latest version (not the security updates of course) of anything on a production machine has always been a bad idea. We need a new razor, something along the lines of "do not attribute to FANG marketing what is better explained by misplaced expectations".
  - jlokier 6y ago
    > spares [...] are not best practices, they are the basic cost of doing business I think you overestimate some professional people's income (especially if it's sporadic) and underestimate their other expenses. I've known many freelancers who buy a new laptop twice a decade at most. It will be the single most valuable object they own, and may be the result of saving for months and careful consideration of what to buy, intending it to use it for many years. A spare good laptop "just in case" is not a realistic option for them. Most of them could buy a second laptop if circumstances arise where it's absolutely necessary, but it would be hardship. So they wouldn't get one just as a "nice to have", a spare laptop lying around doing "nothing". Especially if it's going to be outdated by the time you have some use for it. Events where you need a spare device are quite rare after all. That might be below "the basic cost" of running a sensible business, but for people on median and/or sporadic incomes it's a significant cost, only worth bearing if and when it becomes necessary.
    - jeromenerf 6y ago
newsbinator 6y ago
The reason I left Linux was having to spend days on incantations to make my sound card or network adapter work. I got tired of having to figure out what codec incantations I needed to make videos play. Much of the support was snarky "RTFM" or forum postings from 2007 about different distros. Every couple years I try it again when people on HN insist it's better now, and within minutes there's a showstopper hardware compatibility issue or something. I'm scheduled to try it again about a year from now.
- jlokier 6y ago
  I'm a huge Linux fan and used Linux natively on several laptops for nearly 20 years. Even with all that experience and care picking good laptops, and even after Ubuntu and Xorg autoconfig made the driver situation much better, I found myself having to: Fix kernel graphics driver bugs (spans of random pixels occasionally drawn on the screen due to something extremely subtle deep in the Intel driver), sound driver bugs, and being annoyed that nothing worked right with Nvidia on one of them (neither Nvidia's driver nor Nouveau worked properly), and debugging unreliable suspend. Now I run Linux in a VM, and that's been perfect for userspace development. On a Mac, the four-finger swipe switches beautifully between Mac and Linux full-screen desktops, as if neither OS is really in charge. It feels more like running Xen, two OSes side by side, with Apple-quality GUI for switching and organising OSes. Of course, not so good when the Apple device bricks. The symptoms people are reporting now are very similar to what I saw when upgrading to Catalina - hours stuck on "about a minute remaining", many reboots and with what looked like glitchy display errors and "starting from scratch" progress bars, leading to a worrying feeling it was stuck in a reboot cycle or just bricked. I was immensely relieved when it eventually finished after hours of doing whatever it was doing, as I didn't have a spare working computer (all my old Linux laptops have broken :-/) And that was after leaving it for nearly a year (I installed Catalina this summer), so the problems should have been "ironed out" by then. I'm really glad I haven't follow the system notification's prompt to update to Big Sur. From the Catalina experience, I suspect I'd be one of the brickage victims, and I can't afford that right now. If it were always possible to restore from backup (as it generally is with Linux and Windows) that would be fine, I'd take the risk. But when Apple updates go wrong, it can be more serious as you can't necessarily boot at all, even to restore from backup.
jlokier 6y ago
There's a pretty strong motivation: > Since I can’t work because I’m waiting for the replacement There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur update (which presents itself via system notifications as if it's an ordinary software update, not a major event), and they are either stuck far from any Apple service waiting for a replacement, or worse, it's out of warranty and they can't afford to buy another machine.
- blazor 6y ago
  Wonder if that will be enough to make them consider switching away from Apple? Silly question!
  - jlokier 6y ago
    If they can't afford another machine, then not until the current one stops working. Ironically! But for a lot of developers, their work literally can only be done on on Apple devices. You can't develop iOS and Mac apps on anything else. There are a lot of people for whom that is their job, including freelancers. They could switch to a new domain of business, but that's a large change with many disadvantages. It's not like picking a different laptop just because you fancy a change. E.g. for an iOS developer to switch to being an Android developer, it's not hard to start but there's a lot to learn to be good at it to the same level and bring in the same money.
    - beagle3 6y ago
      Thats a very weird example. Those developers should know better than update on the first week of a new OS on their only non-virtualized machine. I would be surprised if my accountant updates to a new version of Excel within 3 days if it coming out, and would be very disappointed if as a result he wasn’t able to prepare my taxes. The situation you described is similar - someone who should know better throwing their old tools before they know for sure the shiny new one will work.
rorykoehler 6y ago
My workflows are all Mac centric. Now I'm also hooked on using iPad as second display via sidecar.i could solve these issues via Linux and I am researching Linux distros by installing on my old mac but nothing quite compares to the Mac ecosystem UX. I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle.
- arrty88 6y ago
  > I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle. Exactly. Mac has become windows in this sense. Updates aren’t safe and users must stay a few versions behind.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    I've been using Mac since 15 years and it's always been this way.
    - addicted 6y ago
      With OSX you always updated your OS with 10.x.1 if you wanted it to work regularly. But in the pre iOSification days a new 10.x version would come out every few years, so the 10.x.1 version would come out a few months later with major bugs ironed out. You waited a few months, and then safely enjoyed 10.x.x updates for another 2-3 years. With the annual release, your 10.x version comes out every year, the 10.x.1 version a few months later but it’s hardly as well tested, and you’re probably better off waiting for 10.x.2 and then by the time that’s done, Apple is already preparing you for 10.x+1.
- luka-birsa 6y ago
  Try Windows - it's the best interface to experience Linux from :D.
jasonsync 6y ago
I surprised myself last week! When one of my older Macs became unresponsive due to that Apple network failure problem issue, I spent countless hours running various system cleaner utilities, uninstalling apps, and blindly running obscure terminal commands from Stack Overflow, even though my own initial console log analysis (and instincts) had more-or-less confirmed that it was an issue with trustd network connection timeouts to Apple's own servers. Fool on me. This coupled with having to get my 2019 Macbook Air keyboard replaced twice (due to sticky keys) has me thinking out loud about moving away from Apple. Good coverage of the trustd issue: https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-destroys-an-afternoon-of-worldwide-mac-productivity/ https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-destroy...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
weystrom 6y ago
Or just use Windows with WSL2/Linux VM.
st1x7 6y ago
Is Linux really that easy to recommend these days? I'm genuinely asking, not sure what the current state is. My impression is that over the past few years Linux has gotten a bit better at just working out of the box, Mac would be good if you never upgrade the OS (but if you do upgrade, you're rolling the dice on a major disaster) and Windows is pretty much where it was (and still not a great experience for developers). Basically, the 3 platforms seem a lot closer to each other than they used to be.
- jlokier 6y ago
  Several laptop manufacturers officially support Linux these days, even providing it ready-installed. If the manufacturer can supply a working Linux laptop, that usually means other distros will run without difficulty on it as well.
- DarkmSparks 6y ago
  As a Mac and Linux guy (no more winnndddooows yay!) My Linux machine is my rock, and has been for about 10 years and 3 or 4 hardware upgrades now. MacOS is really nice, almost as good as Linux and great for those things like photo shop files or those unfortunate days there is no choice but to use MS office. The only thing I miss about windows since switching my second machine to MacOS is how angry windows would make me every time I tried to do something on it.
asutekku 6y ago
It works 99% of the time and things like this are rare occurences. My experience with linux (Debian & Centos) has been less than stellar.
bayindirh 6y ago
As a regular mac and Linux user (I use Linux 80% of the time), I can clearly say it's not about sustaining an attachment. If I had time, I'd do the same. I'm in this career because I wondered how these things work in the first place. Just because Windows or macOS are closed systems they're not less interesting. They're harder to understand and, sometimes challenge calls. Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago but, it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that. OTOH, every platform has its nice applications. While Darktable is a very nice photo editor and Digikam is a perfect DAM, CameraBag or OmniGraffle doesn't work on Linux. Similarly, many basic functions of KDE's Dolphin (Protocol support, embedded git, etc.) is not present on mac. Similarly my IDE of choice (Eclipse) wasn't working well on macs until Big Sur. However, while developing applications, Apple's design decisions and inner workings provide some nice insight and inspiration for better experiences and more sensible defaults. Using diverse set of platforms is mind opening for me. It's important to understand the trade-offs of every one and, all of them are perfect in their own regard. However, at the end of the day, I'm a FOSS lover and you can't pry my Linux systems from my cold dead hands. macOS on the other hand is just a nice closed system to develop open source stuff for me.
- Qerub 6y ago
  > I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that. There are certified/tested Linux computers available from vendors like HP and Dell. Just buy one of them instead of wasting time researching hardware compatibility only for it to break later with no one to complain to. Some links: HP Linux Hardware Matrix: https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf Dell Linux Workstations and Laptops: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Ubuntu Desktop Certified Hardware: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop Red Hat Certified Workstations (incl. Laptops): https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search
unethical_ban 6y ago
You're saying people should avoid tinkering by going from Apple to "Linux", let's assume a desktop, well documented OS with binary package management like Fedora or Ubuntu. First, this isn't happening to all updates. Second, On a daily basis, Apple stores/support are widely available and with pretty good warranty coverage. Third, the quality of hardware/user experience for the average, non-technical computer user is on a different plane of existence when comparing Apple to non-apple laptops. Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world. I play games and have used Windows, BSD and Ubuntu as my main drivers at different times over the past 20 years. My Thinkpad is currently on Ubuntu 20.04. My career is IT/Infosec. I don't even use my laptop most days, but I'm tempted by an M1 air because the UX and value is amazing.
- Kwpolska 6y ago
  > Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world. Dell’s XPS line can beat or match Intel MacBook Pros in those regards. XPS 13 9310 (2020): 1200p (base, touch optional) or 2400p (touch only), 14h11/8h12 video playback, 1.2/1.27 kg, sleeker design [0] Intel MBP 13 (2020): 1600p (no touch), 10h video playback, 1.4 kg [1] (Also, OSes are subjective, but macOS has been pretty annoying to me recently.) [0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/xn9310cto210h https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-13-lapt... [1]: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  Kwpolska, your comment is dead. Dunno why. The retina-esque screen is a $400 add-on, touchpad probably isn't as good as apple's, touch gesture support/nav no-idea. Battery life no-idea. For a non-macOS though, it looks pretty good.
AdamN 6y ago
Most people on this list have done similar shenanigans on Windows and Linux too. No OS/manufacturer comes without these kinds of edgecases.
ag56 6y ago
That is unfair. Apple has a billion devices in active use so there are bound to be the occasional issue. And even with those issues it is still a _far_ better experience than either Linux or Windows.
- acomjean 6y ago
  Apple has like 20-30 models, so testing should be easier. Also you pay a premium for apple hardware, so there is the expectation that it just works.
- luka-birsa 6y ago
  This is untrue. As somebody that just defected from OSX to Windows I can tell you that you're missing out. Windows became a more stable and usable PC where everything just works. My 2 year old top of the line MBP was replaced by a 3 year old Dell XPS 13 after 10 years of OSX and I hate to break it to you, but Windows changed. I replaced the MBP since the I had to replace the thinnest keyboard in the world, but I had problems with BT, WiFi, crashes, random external monitor glitches, no support for two external monitors via TB 3.0 (look it up, same hardware works under windows!!). Ask my diehard OSX fan coworker that just had to upgrade OSX just to get wifi working at home. I stayed for Windows since my MBP stopped working a week after I got the keyboard replaced and to be honest I really can't bother to move back. Everything just works here. OSX has left the domain of the power user and has been relegated to into the domain of the consumer user that likes the Apple marketing. I am monitoring the situation with ARM CPUS closely and that would be a motivation to switch back, but right now it feels my next computer upgrade will be windows based high end laptop. Better OS and better price performance are hard to argue with. PS: If you're a developer and you're still clinging to OSX, try it - the whole experience is next level (compared to the whole brew ecosystem). Download WSL for windows, get Ubuntu from windows store and use the Windows Terminal to experience native Ubuntu. Hell if you're using VS Code, all you need to do is type "code ." from Ubuntu to open VS Code in Windows and develop in native Linux.
  - hackshack 6y ago
    This. Mac user since 1991. In 2016, I needed a VR development box with a fast GPU, so I supplemented the 27” iMac on my desk with a homebuilt PC and 27” 4K monitor. That little PC has earned its keep! I use the PC about 95% of the time. The iMac is now my Pixelmator and OmniOutliner appliance, and backup OBS video capture device. Win10’s last 2 years of “builds” are very good. It still rots like regular Windows, but I got 3.5 years of heavy use before reinstalling it. Main apps are Unity, Visual Studio 2017, and some hardware design stuff (SOLIDWORKS, KiCad, SEGGER). It feels so liberating to have all my niche apps on the PC without having to virtualize. User experience on Windows is a little jankier, but the utility of the niche apps makes up for it. I miss AirDrop. If I were to advise Microsoft on one thing: fix the Control Panel situation in Win10. It’s like layers of bad makeup. Windows also restores much worse than macOS. I miss Time Machine. I purchased a tool called Macrium Reflect which gets me close enough, and actually can restore a bootable system.
wil421 6y ago
Almost every single laptop I’ve owned has had an issue at one point or another. I’ve had more windows laptops with weirder issues than my Macs. The Mac hardware last longer but I’ve had a 2011 MBP finally die after 6 years. No chance I’m rolling my dice with Linux on a laptop. Touchpad support is funky. I run FreeNAS, Linux, and raspberrypi boxes at my house.

coldtea 6y ago

>Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their attachment to their macs and apple. Probably because going to these lengths is rare, and people will just service/replace the ocassional problematic machine. Whereas in Linux land this is much more common, and you're on your own commercial support wise (and with friendly forums to guide you).

kache_ 6y ago
At least with Linux you can actually fix it
- coldtea 6y ago
  If you know how, have time, don't have an opportunity cost/better things....
  - 10000truths 6y ago
    There's also a pretty big opportunity/time/effort cost to contacting Apple support, describing your problem, fighting with them over whether the defect is covered under warranty, actually packaging the thing and shipping it to them, waiting for the fix/replacement, hoping the replacement isn't similarly screwed up, and setting up all your programs and files again when they 'fix' the problem by wiping your machine or giving you a new one.
    - vladvasiliu 6y ago
      That's correct, but as a parent said, this kind of issue is very rare. I can't actually remember another mac os upgrade actually bricking machines. I may be wrong, though. What's way more common is random hardware failures, unrelated to the OS. I've never had to deal with apple support and hope I'll never have to, but HP enterprise support isn't frictionless either. A colleague of mine had a swollen battery, which wasn't user replaceable (guess not only Apple has bright ideas). He called up the support, which went relatively fine but in the end he had to send the computer in for repairs for two weeks and was advised to save his data as the machine would be wiped. Luckily removing the SSD was possible and didn't void the warranty...
      - Symbiote 6y ago
        In my experience, "Not user replaceable" on enterprise laptops means a few normal screws release the back cover to get access to the battery. The next business day, on-site support presumably costs extra. (We have it for servers, but I don't deal with laptops until they're out of warranty.)
    - abawany 6y ago
      I'm sad to say my experiences with Apple support for my work laptops have been palpably worse than my dealings with my state's DMV (to use the stereotype of 'bad customer service'). I am currently stuck waiting for a screen replacement for a 6 month old 16" MBP (something that was promised in 3 days but I found today, after 4 calls and as many answers, that it might be ready this week); I'm using a 4+ year old MBP in the meantime - the latter needs a battery replacement but my numerous encounters with Apple support/Store have made me generally allergic to dealing with them. If there's a magical Apple cs experience that exists, it certainly has eluded me every time. Edit0: syntax.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  And if I had endless time, presumably I could reach englightenment, with seems like a better use of my time.
owenwil 6y ago
I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every other update rare.
- acdha 6y ago
  They don’t happen on every other update, or even every tenth update. You’re hearing from a small self-selected population of users who had undiagnosed hardware issues, dodgy power, hacked up system config, etc. and generalizing it to the vast majority of users who clicked install and resumed working 20 minutes later.
- kalleboo 6y ago
  I've been using Macs for 29 years, only one update has gone bad (El Capitan after updating, the boot would never complete. I restored from Time Machine, and did a clean install, then it worked fine). Hardly "every other update". Meanwhile I've hosed so many Linux installs by somehow getting mismatched package versions
- coldtea 6y ago
  I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every other update anything but rare. And I've been using Macs since 2003 (along with Linux, Windows, etc). It's the effect of: (1) millions of Macs updating at the same time (fastest OS updates in the industry) vs a smaller number of Linux users scattered upon every distro and updating at random piecemeal intervals (and Windows users fragmented into 2000000 possible configurations and OEMS, with different pain points and issues, that nobody cares for, and is not newsworthy, plus the blame can be dilluted between MS and the PC vendor.). (2) Apple doing bolder changes with releases than Windows or Linux does (adopting new things faster, custom processors and co-processors and SOCs, whole new languages, new filesystems, etc), so risking more problems. (3) Apple news sell (few would care for "Asus botched the production run of one of its 200 models"), so they magnify the issues that 1000 or 10,000 people see as if they concern 100,000,000+ users (or half a billion in the case of iOS). (4) Hackers and tinkerers being angry that they're not pandered by Apple, as if they ever were the target group for Macs, and as if curation and the concept of the walled garden is not central to macOS/iOS (in the positive light: not "I can't get off the garden" but "it's a peaceful garden where I can focus on X things, creeps, crazy people, junkies, etc don't get to screw around -- and yes, this means that to achieve that I can't do any arbitrary thing I might want either").

owenwil 6y ago

Trust me, I don’t usually care and would have given up – I think it was way too difficult to fix this. I’ve written extensively about switching from macOS to Windows and much prefer using a PC personally: https://char.gd/blog/2019/the-state-of-switching-to-windows-from-mac-in-2019 https://char.gd/blog/2019/the-state-of-switching-to-windows-... In this case, however, my job requires I use the Mac issued to me so y’know, it was in my interest to get it going again while I waited for a replacement.

bentcorner 6y ago
I use a Windows PC and need to use a Mac occasionally for my work. I keep delaying updates on the Mac because I'm terrified of it not coming back up, and I don't know a ton about MacOS. It doesn't help that the Mac is currently remote and I'm working from home.

dstick 6y ago

You are spot on. The big advantage Apple had is slowly fading away: quality control. First the keyboards, now this. As a freelance developer, my MacBook Pro is my livelihood. It’s dependence, great support and MacOS / Linux CLI was it’s main feature. Now it’s gotten to the point where you’re better off waiting 4 years before buying a new product line so the general public beta tested it long enough. I’m getting a lot of Microsoft in the 90’s vibes from Apple these days. Anyone else as well?

jeromenerf 6y ago
Being dependent on one device, as a professional? Backups, spares and insurance are not best practices, they are the basic cost of doing business. Using the latest version (not the security updates of course) of anything on a production machine has always been a bad idea. We need a new razor, something along the lines of "do not attribute to FANG marketing what is better explained by misplaced expectations".
- jlokier 6y ago
  > spares [...] are not best practices, they are the basic cost of doing business I think you overestimate some professional people's income (especially if it's sporadic) and underestimate their other expenses. I've known many freelancers who buy a new laptop twice a decade at most. It will be the single most valuable object they own, and may be the result of saving for months and careful consideration of what to buy, intending it to use it for many years. A spare good laptop "just in case" is not a realistic option for them. Most of them could buy a second laptop if circumstances arise where it's absolutely necessary, but it would be hardship. So they wouldn't get one just as a "nice to have", a spare laptop lying around doing "nothing". Especially if it's going to be outdated by the time you have some use for it. Events where you need a spare device are quite rare after all. That might be below "the basic cost" of running a sensible business, but for people on median and/or sporadic incomes it's a significant cost, only worth bearing if and when it becomes necessary.
  - jeromenerf 6y ago

newsbinator 6y ago

The reason I left Linux was having to spend days on incantations to make my sound card or network adapter work. I got tired of having to figure out what codec incantations I needed to make videos play. Much of the support was snarky "RTFM" or forum postings from 2007 about different distros. Every couple years I try it again when people on HN insist it's better now, and within minutes there's a showstopper hardware compatibility issue or something. I'm scheduled to try it again about a year from now.

jlokier 6y ago
I'm a huge Linux fan and used Linux natively on several laptops for nearly 20 years. Even with all that experience and care picking good laptops, and even after Ubuntu and Xorg autoconfig made the driver situation much better, I found myself having to: Fix kernel graphics driver bugs (spans of random pixels occasionally drawn on the screen due to something extremely subtle deep in the Intel driver), sound driver bugs, and being annoyed that nothing worked right with Nvidia on one of them (neither Nvidia's driver nor Nouveau worked properly), and debugging unreliable suspend. Now I run Linux in a VM, and that's been perfect for userspace development. On a Mac, the four-finger swipe switches beautifully between Mac and Linux full-screen desktops, as if neither OS is really in charge. It feels more like running Xen, two OSes side by side, with Apple-quality GUI for switching and organising OSes. Of course, not so good when the Apple device bricks. The symptoms people are reporting now are very similar to what I saw when upgrading to Catalina - hours stuck on "about a minute remaining", many reboots and with what looked like glitchy display errors and "starting from scratch" progress bars, leading to a worrying feeling it was stuck in a reboot cycle or just bricked. I was immensely relieved when it eventually finished after hours of doing whatever it was doing, as I didn't have a spare working computer (all my old Linux laptops have broken :-/) And that was after leaving it for nearly a year (I installed Catalina this summer), so the problems should have been "ironed out" by then. I'm really glad I haven't follow the system notification's prompt to update to Big Sur. From the Catalina experience, I suspect I'd be one of the brickage victims, and I can't afford that right now. If it were always possible to restore from backup (as it generally is with Linux and Windows) that would be fine, I'd take the risk. But when Apple updates go wrong, it can be more serious as you can't necessarily boot at all, even to restore from backup.

jlokier 6y ago

There's a pretty strong motivation: > Since I can’t work because I’m waiting for the replacement There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur update (which presents itself via system notifications as if it's an ordinary software update, not a major event), and they are either stuck far from any Apple service waiting for a replacement, or worse, it's out of warranty and they can't afford to buy another machine.

blazor 6y ago
Wonder if that will be enough to make them consider switching away from Apple? Silly question!
- jlokier 6y ago
  If they can't afford another machine, then not until the current one stops working. Ironically! But for a lot of developers, their work literally can only be done on on Apple devices. You can't develop iOS and Mac apps on anything else. There are a lot of people for whom that is their job, including freelancers. They could switch to a new domain of business, but that's a large change with many disadvantages. It's not like picking a different laptop just because you fancy a change. E.g. for an iOS developer to switch to being an Android developer, it's not hard to start but there's a lot to learn to be good at it to the same level and bring in the same money.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    Thats a very weird example. Those developers should know better than update on the first week of a new OS on their only non-virtualized machine. I would be surprised if my accountant updates to a new version of Excel within 3 days if it coming out, and would be very disappointed if as a result he wasn’t able to prepare my taxes. The situation you described is similar - someone who should know better throwing their old tools before they know for sure the shiny new one will work.

rorykoehler 6y ago

My workflows are all Mac centric. Now I'm also hooked on using iPad as second display via sidecar.i could solve these issues via Linux and I am researching Linux distros by installing on my old mac but nothing quite compares to the Mac ecosystem UX. I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle.

arrty88 6y ago
> I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle. Exactly. Mac has become windows in this sense. Updates aren’t safe and users must stay a few versions behind.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  I've been using Mac since 15 years and it's always been this way.
  - addicted 6y ago
    With OSX you always updated your OS with 10.x.1 if you wanted it to work regularly. But in the pre iOSification days a new 10.x version would come out every few years, so the 10.x.1 version would come out a few months later with major bugs ironed out. You waited a few months, and then safely enjoyed 10.x.x updates for another 2-3 years. With the annual release, your 10.x version comes out every year, the 10.x.1 version a few months later but it’s hardly as well tested, and you’re probably better off waiting for 10.x.2 and then by the time that’s done, Apple is already preparing you for 10.x+1.
luka-birsa 6y ago
Try Windows - it's the best interface to experience Linux from :D.

jasonsync 6y ago

I surprised myself last week! When one of my older Macs became unresponsive due to that Apple network failure problem issue, I spent countless hours running various system cleaner utilities, uninstalling apps, and blindly running obscure terminal commands from Stack Overflow, even though my own initial console log analysis (and instincts) had more-or-less confirmed that it was an issue with trustd network connection timeouts to Apple's own servers. Fool on me. This coupled with having to get my 2019 Macbook Air keyboard replaced twice (due to sticky keys) has me thinking out loud about moving away from Apple. Good coverage of the trustd issue: https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-destroys-an-afternoon-of-worldwide-mac-productivity/ https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-destroy...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

weystrom 6y ago

Or just use Windows with WSL2/Linux VM.

st1x7 6y ago

Is Linux really that easy to recommend these days? I'm genuinely asking, not sure what the current state is. My impression is that over the past few years Linux has gotten a bit better at just working out of the box, Mac would be good if you never upgrade the OS (but if you do upgrade, you're rolling the dice on a major disaster) and Windows is pretty much where it was (and still not a great experience for developers). Basically, the 3 platforms seem a lot closer to each other than they used to be.

jlokier 6y ago
Several laptop manufacturers officially support Linux these days, even providing it ready-installed. If the manufacturer can supply a working Linux laptop, that usually means other distros will run without difficulty on it as well.
DarkmSparks 6y ago
As a Mac and Linux guy (no more winnndddooows yay!) My Linux machine is my rock, and has been for about 10 years and 3 or 4 hardware upgrades now. MacOS is really nice, almost as good as Linux and great for those things like photo shop files or those unfortunate days there is no choice but to use MS office. The only thing I miss about windows since switching my second machine to MacOS is how angry windows would make me every time I tried to do something on it.

asutekku 6y ago

It works 99% of the time and things like this are rare occurences. My experience with linux (Debian & Centos) has been less than stellar.

bayindirh 6y ago

As a regular mac and Linux user (I use Linux 80% of the time), I can clearly say it's not about sustaining an attachment. If I had time, I'd do the same. I'm in this career because I wondered how these things work in the first place. Just because Windows or macOS are closed systems they're not less interesting. They're harder to understand and, sometimes challenge calls. Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago but, it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that. OTOH, every platform has its nice applications. While Darktable is a very nice photo editor and Digikam is a perfect DAM, CameraBag or OmniGraffle doesn't work on Linux. Similarly, many basic functions of KDE's Dolphin (Protocol support, embedded git, etc.) is not present on mac. Similarly my IDE of choice (Eclipse) wasn't working well on macs until Big Sur. However, while developing applications, Apple's design decisions and inner workings provide some nice insight and inspiration for better experiences and more sensible defaults. Using diverse set of platforms is mind opening for me. It's important to understand the trade-offs of every one and, all of them are perfect in their own regard. However, at the end of the day, I'm a FOSS lover and you can't pry my Linux systems from my cold dead hands. macOS on the other hand is just a nice closed system to develop open source stuff for me.

Qerub 6y ago
> I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that. There are certified/tested Linux computers available from vendors like HP and Dell. Just buy one of them instead of wasting time researching hardware compatibility only for it to break later with no one to complain to. Some links: HP Linux Hardware Matrix: https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf Dell Linux Workstations and Laptops: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Ubuntu Desktop Certified Hardware: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop Red Hat Certified Workstations (incl. Laptops): https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search

unethical_ban 6y ago

You're saying people should avoid tinkering by going from Apple to "Linux", let's assume a desktop, well documented OS with binary package management like Fedora or Ubuntu. First, this isn't happening to all updates. Second, On a daily basis, Apple stores/support are widely available and with pretty good warranty coverage. Third, the quality of hardware/user experience for the average, non-technical computer user is on a different plane of existence when comparing Apple to non-apple laptops. Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world. I play games and have used Windows, BSD and Ubuntu as my main drivers at different times over the past 20 years. My Thinkpad is currently on Ubuntu 20.04. My career is IT/Infosec. I don't even use my laptop most days, but I'm tempted by an M1 air because the UX and value is amazing.

Kwpolska 6y ago
> Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world. Dell’s XPS line can beat or match Intel MacBook Pros in those regards. XPS 13 9310 (2020): 1200p (base, touch optional) or 2400p (touch only), 14h11/8h12 video playback, 1.2/1.27 kg, sleeker design [0] Intel MBP 13 (2020): 1600p (no touch), 10h video playback, 1.4 kg [1] (Also, OSes are subjective, but macOS has been pretty annoying to me recently.) [0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/xn9310cto210h https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-13-lapt... [1]: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/
unethical_ban 6y ago
Kwpolska, your comment is dead. Dunno why. The retina-esque screen is a $400 add-on, touchpad probably isn't as good as apple's, touch gesture support/nav no-idea. Battery life no-idea. For a non-macOS though, it looks pretty good.

AdamN 6y ago

Most people on this list have done similar shenanigans on Windows and Linux too. No OS/manufacturer comes without these kinds of edgecases.

ag56 6y ago

That is unfair. Apple has a billion devices in active use so there are bound to be the occasional issue. And even with those issues it is still a _far_ better experience than either Linux or Windows.

acomjean 6y ago
Apple has like 20-30 models, so testing should be easier. Also you pay a premium for apple hardware, so there is the expectation that it just works.
luka-birsa 6y ago
This is untrue. As somebody that just defected from OSX to Windows I can tell you that you're missing out. Windows became a more stable and usable PC where everything just works. My 2 year old top of the line MBP was replaced by a 3 year old Dell XPS 13 after 10 years of OSX and I hate to break it to you, but Windows changed. I replaced the MBP since the I had to replace the thinnest keyboard in the world, but I had problems with BT, WiFi, crashes, random external monitor glitches, no support for two external monitors via TB 3.0 (look it up, same hardware works under windows!!). Ask my diehard OSX fan coworker that just had to upgrade OSX just to get wifi working at home. I stayed for Windows since my MBP stopped working a week after I got the keyboard replaced and to be honest I really can't bother to move back. Everything just works here. OSX has left the domain of the power user and has been relegated to into the domain of the consumer user that likes the Apple marketing. I am monitoring the situation with ARM CPUS closely and that would be a motivation to switch back, but right now it feels my next computer upgrade will be windows based high end laptop. Better OS and better price performance are hard to argue with. PS: If you're a developer and you're still clinging to OSX, try it - the whole experience is next level (compared to the whole brew ecosystem). Download WSL for windows, get Ubuntu from windows store and use the Windows Terminal to experience native Ubuntu. Hell if you're using VS Code, all you need to do is type "code ." from Ubuntu to open VS Code in Windows and develop in native Linux.
- hackshack 6y ago
  This. Mac user since 1991. In 2016, I needed a VR development box with a fast GPU, so I supplemented the 27” iMac on my desk with a homebuilt PC and 27” 4K monitor. That little PC has earned its keep! I use the PC about 95% of the time. The iMac is now my Pixelmator and OmniOutliner appliance, and backup OBS video capture device. Win10’s last 2 years of “builds” are very good. It still rots like regular Windows, but I got 3.5 years of heavy use before reinstalling it. Main apps are Unity, Visual Studio 2017, and some hardware design stuff (SOLIDWORKS, KiCad, SEGGER). It feels so liberating to have all my niche apps on the PC without having to virtualize. User experience on Windows is a little jankier, but the utility of the niche apps makes up for it. I miss AirDrop. If I were to advise Microsoft on one thing: fix the Control Panel situation in Win10. It’s like layers of bad makeup. Windows also restores much worse than macOS. I miss Time Machine. I purchased a tool called Macrium Reflect which gets me close enough, and actually can restore a bootable system.

wil421 6y ago

Almost every single laptop I’ve owned has had an issue at one point or another. I’ve had more windows laptops with weirder issues than my Macs. The Mac hardware last longer but I’ve had a 2011 MBP finally die after 6 years. No chance I’m rolling my dice with Linux on a laptop. Touchpad support is funky. I run FreeNAS, Linux, and raspberrypi boxes at my house.