7 ms·

Since you opened this "back-and-forth" I feel I need to correct the perception with some sources and point out your framing: 1. I couldn't find a source for yo

Since you opened this "back-and-forth" I feel I need to correct the perception with some sources and point out your framing: 1. I couldn't find a source for your 3-4 k number,if you can point me to it I'd be greatful. I did find a a source of 532 developing Guillan-Barré https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18014-swine-flu-myth-the-vaccine-isnt-safe-it-has-been-rushed-through-tests-and-the-last-time-there-was-a-swine-flu-scare-the-vaccine-hurt-people-why-take-the-risk-to-prevent-mild-flu/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18014-swine-flu-myth-... 2. That same source lays out why worrying about this risk is not rational (in this case) 3. No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona 4. (my opinion) by over-emphasizing the "personal choice" angle we are letting anti-vaxxination pseudo science and conspiracy beliefs spread without being challenged. Some things are more wrong than others and the science for the harm of vaccines has oveerwhelmingly failed to arrive. So using the term "without anti-vaccination beliefs" is fair in this case, since I will argue the only reason why you'd reject a vaccine that is recommended by a physician is an irrational belief not grounded in evidence

CryptoPunk 6y ago
>3. No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona That is not true: https://nysba.org/new-york-state-bar-association-calls-upon-state-to-consider-mandating-a-safe-and-effective-vaccine-if-voluntary-measures-fail-to-protect-public-health/ https://nysba.org/new-york-state-bar-association-calls-upon-... >>The New York State Bar Association (NYSBA) is recommending that the state consider mandating a COVID-19 vaccine once a scientific consensus emerges that it is safe, effective and necessary.
grawprog 6y ago
>since I will argue the only reason why you'd reject a vaccine that is recommended by a physician is an irrational belief not grounded in evidence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy https://ijme.in/articles/deaths-in-a-trial-of-the-hpv-vaccine/ https://ijme.in/articles/deaths-in-a-trial-of-the-hpv-vaccin... https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30352154 https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30352154 Vaccine manufacturers have a poor track record of releasing dangerous barely tested vaccines onto populations, causing deaths and avoiding lawsuits. Personally, I am skeptical about this vaccine, or any other rushed out for a disease with a 97% survival rate. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=home... I've had lots of vaccines in my life, the thing is, all those were for diseases that had a high risk of crippling or killing me. Why would I want a vaccine that is actually less effective than my chances of surviving? If I get the vaccine, there's a 95% chance it'll work, if I get covid, there's a 97% chance i'll live. All I know is, if you told someone they had a 97% chance of winning at a casino, they'd be down there in a flash. Why would I choose to have some barely tested vaccine with not fully studied long term side effects made by companies who have extremely poor track records with medication in general? Pfizer is bascially responsible for the oxycontin epidemic. Their reps bribe doctors into pushing their drugs. Moderna's some secretive biotech company that just appeared out of nowhere with this whole covid thing. What reason do I have to trust any of these companies over the 97% survival rate I can expect from getting covid?
- e12e 6y ago
  It's the other way around - for any given chance of you getting COVID, there's a (to use your number) 3% mortality rate - if you take the vaccine - that outcome changes because you now have much smaller risk of infection, to 0.15% chance. Your choice is between 3% and 0.15% - not 95% and 97%. I don't think this individualistic way of looking at things is sound, though. First 3% mortality sounds way high - even given health system collapse (basically turning every ventilator survivor into a dead patient). And on the other hand, mostly the old and those with pre-conditions will die - we alltake the vaccine to protect everyone. That way we might avoid a population wide 0.5% (or thereabouts) mortality rate. That would still 1 in 200 - most people would likely know a handful of people dying from the disease if there's no mitigation.
  - grawprog 6y ago
    Yeah, people die every day from all sorts of things. I'm still not sure why this particular cause of death is so terrifying to the world compared to every other cause of death out there. Now say, were those numbers reversed and only 1 million out of 55 million recovered, I could see this level of panic and hysterics. As it is, i've got a better chance of dying crossing the sketchy ass road I have to cross every day than dying o. covid. Those elderly folks and people with pre-existing conditions, well if it's not covid, it'll be something else. That's just kind of how it is when you're old or have pre-existing health conditions. The thing is, if you have a pre-existing health condition, you're likely already used to being cautious. If you're old you already know even a cold can kill you. Why is it the entire world must react and compensate for two specific groups of people who are already high risk and who already (hopefully )take precautions for themselve? They're not children, they're adults. That's the thing about living, one day it stops, whatever you do. Honestly, it's selfish of those people to expect the entire world to cater to them so they feel a little bit safer. It's insane. People can't work, can't run their businesses, told to stand in line like sheep, told who they can bring into their homes, who they can associate with, where they can go, to take some vaccine because... A small percentage of the population is high risk? That's justification for ruining the lives of countless people? Yeah, I do know some people who died, not of covid though. My friend died of his cancer after being unable to go for treatments during covid and another friend with a heart condition who had their regular checkups repeatedly delayed due to covid and ended up dying of heart failure in their sleep. Again, this person did not have covid. These people were supposed to be the people we're protecting through these.measures? They died because of these measures. They may have died anyway, they may have gotten covid and died without them, but that's not what happened. It's completely fucked to make the majority of the world suffer in the name of protecting a tiny percent of people. I don't give a fuck if it's selfish, it makes no sense. The cure should not be worse than the disease.
disabled 6y ago
> No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona There will be de facto mandatory vaccination, to a degree. This is a Canadian news source but read about the companies involved with creating this program (by the way—-it’s not Ticketmaster). It is definitely coming to America and already underway. No coronavirus vaccine, no entry? Experts say it’s possible in pandemic’s next stage https://globalnews.ca/news/7457999/ticketmaster-covid19-vaccine-canada/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7457999/ticketmaster-covid19-vacc... In Europe, mandatory vaccinations do exist in some countries, for both children and adults. Also, in Croatia (which is part of the European Union), if you refuse to have your child vaccinated, it is legally considered to be child abuse. In Croatia, they have school doctors that literally come to the schools with nurses that not only ensure the health of all of the kids, but also have them vaccinated there. Homeschooling is also illegal in Croatia.
throwaway201103 6y ago
Physicians recommend many drugs that end up proving to have dangerous side effects. The anti-inflamatory Vioxx is just one that comes to mind without doing any research.
- Daishiman 6y ago
  That's like saying that there have been unsafe cars in history without understand which cars and why and why they're unsafe. There's a lot of unsafe stuff, but this example is so absurdly generalized that it seems either malicious or just so ignorant that it's not even a worthy position to take.
freeone3000 6y ago
In response to 3, many rational people are. And I agree with them. We have mandatory vaccinations for MMR and for dTAP. Have you ever heard of anyone catching diphtheria? A reasonable risk profile puts COVID-19 at higher risk than whooping cough, as the chances of getting it are so much higher, even if the fatality rate is lower.
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago
  "Mandatory" vaccination for children in the USA usually aren't: all states allow exemption for true medical reason, and [edit: --some--] almost all allow exemption on religious grounds. Sixteen allow exemption for parental objection. > We have mandatory vaccinations for MMR and for dTAP. Have you ever heard of anyone catching diphtheria? Not specifically, but DTaP vaccinates against pertussis which has seen epidemic-level outbreaks in the past decade in multiple states. I'd expect any SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations to be targeted at adults for the foreseeable future, but who knows.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    If there's a law you have to get it, and the burden of proof is that the law doesn't apply to you, it's mandatory.
- lasc4r 6y ago
  >Have you ever heard of anyone catching diphtheria? Nope, I wonder why.
hcknwscommenter 6y ago
It is also not definitive that the 532 cases of Guillan-Barré were actually caused by the vaccine. In any large scale vaccination effort people die/get sick just because that is what happens in any large population.
rualca 6y ago
> I did find a a source of 532 developing Guillan-Barré You should have mentioned that the 532 cases of Guillan-Barré were found within the 48 million people receiving the swine flu vaccine. Accordig to Wikipedia, the incidence of Guillam-Barré is about 2 per 100,000 people per year. Statistically speaking, your example suggests that taking the swine flu vaccine is linked with a lower incidence of Guillam-Barre syndrome, nearly lowering it to about 60% of the baseline. If we're allowed to play fast and loose with back-of-the-napkin statistics, your example contradicts your original claims, and indeed makes a strong case in favour of vaccination.
bart_spoon 6y ago
> No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona Define forced. I'm not in favor of pinning people down and forcibly injecting them with something, but I am all for some kind of vaccination "passport", where if you don't have proof of vaccination you stop enjoying the benefits of society. No public schools or services, right for businesses to refuse service, etc. Or at the very least, a heavy tax fine or something a long those lines. If people choose to not get a vaccine, that's fine. But its time we align incentives to eliminate these externalities being born from societal free-loaders who believe in quack-science.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

>3. No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona That is not true: https://nysba.org/new-york-state-bar-association-calls-upon-state-to-consider-mandating-a-safe-and-effective-vaccine-if-voluntary-measures-fail-to-protect-public-health/ https://nysba.org/new-york-state-bar-association-calls-upon-... >>The New York State Bar Association (NYSBA) is recommending that the state consider mandating a COVID-19 vaccine once a scientific consensus emerges that it is safe, effective and necessary.

grawprog 6y ago

>since I will argue the only reason why you'd reject a vaccine that is recommended by a physician is an irrational belief not grounded in evidence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy https://ijme.in/articles/deaths-in-a-trial-of-the-hpv-vaccine/ https://ijme.in/articles/deaths-in-a-trial-of-the-hpv-vaccin... https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30352154 https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30352154 Vaccine manufacturers have a poor track record of releasing dangerous barely tested vaccines onto populations, causing deaths and avoiding lawsuits. Personally, I am skeptical about this vaccine, or any other rushed out for a disease with a 97% survival rate. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=home... I've had lots of vaccines in my life, the thing is, all those were for diseases that had a high risk of crippling or killing me. Why would I want a vaccine that is actually less effective than my chances of surviving? If I get the vaccine, there's a 95% chance it'll work, if I get covid, there's a 97% chance i'll live. All I know is, if you told someone they had a 97% chance of winning at a casino, they'd be down there in a flash. Why would I choose to have some barely tested vaccine with not fully studied long term side effects made by companies who have extremely poor track records with medication in general? Pfizer is bascially responsible for the oxycontin epidemic. Their reps bribe doctors into pushing their drugs. Moderna's some secretive biotech company that just appeared out of nowhere with this whole covid thing. What reason do I have to trust any of these companies over the 97% survival rate I can expect from getting covid?

e12e 6y ago
It's the other way around - for any given chance of you getting COVID, there's a (to use your number) 3% mortality rate - if you take the vaccine - that outcome changes because you now have much smaller risk of infection, to 0.15% chance. Your choice is between 3% and 0.15% - not 95% and 97%. I don't think this individualistic way of looking at things is sound, though. First 3% mortality sounds way high - even given health system collapse (basically turning every ventilator survivor into a dead patient). And on the other hand, mostly the old and those with pre-conditions will die - we alltake the vaccine to protect everyone. That way we might avoid a population wide 0.5% (or thereabouts) mortality rate. That would still 1 in 200 - most people would likely know a handful of people dying from the disease if there's no mitigation.
- grawprog 6y ago
  Yeah, people die every day from all sorts of things. I'm still not sure why this particular cause of death is so terrifying to the world compared to every other cause of death out there. Now say, were those numbers reversed and only 1 million out of 55 million recovered, I could see this level of panic and hysterics. As it is, i've got a better chance of dying crossing the sketchy ass road I have to cross every day than dying o. covid. Those elderly folks and people with pre-existing conditions, well if it's not covid, it'll be something else. That's just kind of how it is when you're old or have pre-existing health conditions. The thing is, if you have a pre-existing health condition, you're likely already used to being cautious. If you're old you already know even a cold can kill you. Why is it the entire world must react and compensate for two specific groups of people who are already high risk and who already (hopefully )take precautions for themselve? They're not children, they're adults. That's the thing about living, one day it stops, whatever you do. Honestly, it's selfish of those people to expect the entire world to cater to them so they feel a little bit safer. It's insane. People can't work, can't run their businesses, told to stand in line like sheep, told who they can bring into their homes, who they can associate with, where they can go, to take some vaccine because... A small percentage of the population is high risk? That's justification for ruining the lives of countless people? Yeah, I do know some people who died, not of covid though. My friend died of his cancer after being unable to go for treatments during covid and another friend with a heart condition who had their regular checkups repeatedly delayed due to covid and ended up dying of heart failure in their sleep. Again, this person did not have covid. These people were supposed to be the people we're protecting through these.measures? They died because of these measures. They may have died anyway, they may have gotten covid and died without them, but that's not what happened. It's completely fucked to make the majority of the world suffer in the name of protecting a tiny percent of people. I don't give a fuck if it's selfish, it makes no sense. The cure should not be worse than the disease.

disabled 6y ago

> No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona There will be de facto mandatory vaccination, to a degree. This is a Canadian news source but read about the companies involved with creating this program (by the way—-it’s not Ticketmaster). It is definitely coming to America and already underway. No coronavirus vaccine, no entry? Experts say it’s possible in pandemic’s next stage https://globalnews.ca/news/7457999/ticketmaster-covid19-vaccine-canada/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7457999/ticketmaster-covid19-vacc... In Europe, mandatory vaccinations do exist in some countries, for both children and adults. Also, in Croatia (which is part of the European Union), if you refuse to have your child vaccinated, it is legally considered to be child abuse. In Croatia, they have school doctors that literally come to the schools with nurses that not only ensure the health of all of the kids, but also have them vaccinated there. Homeschooling is also illegal in Croatia.

throwaway201103 6y ago

Physicians recommend many drugs that end up proving to have dangerous side effects. The anti-inflamatory Vioxx is just one that comes to mind without doing any research.

Daishiman 6y ago
That's like saying that there have been unsafe cars in history without understand which cars and why and why they're unsafe. There's a lot of unsafe stuff, but this example is so absurdly generalized that it seems either malicious or just so ignorant that it's not even a worthy position to take.

freeone3000 6y ago

In response to 3, many rational people are. And I agree with them. We have mandatory vaccinations for MMR and for dTAP. Have you ever heard of anyone catching diphtheria? A reasonable risk profile puts COVID-19 at higher risk than whooping cough, as the chances of getting it are so much higher, even if the fatality rate is lower.

35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago
"Mandatory" vaccination for children in the USA usually aren't: all states allow exemption for true medical reason, and [edit: --some--] almost all allow exemption on religious grounds. Sixteen allow exemption for parental objection. > We have mandatory vaccinations for MMR and for dTAP. Have you ever heard of anyone catching diphtheria? Not specifically, but DTaP vaccinates against pertussis which has seen epidemic-level outbreaks in the past decade in multiple states. I'd expect any SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations to be targeted at adults for the foreseeable future, but who knows.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  If there's a law you have to get it, and the burden of proof is that the law doesn't apply to you, it's mandatory.
lasc4r 6y ago
>Have you ever heard of anyone catching diphtheria? Nope, I wonder why.

hcknwscommenter 6y ago

It is also not definitive that the 532 cases of Guillan-Barré were actually caused by the vaccine. In any large scale vaccination effort people die/get sick just because that is what happens in any large population.

rualca 6y ago

> I did find a a source of 532 developing Guillan-Barré You should have mentioned that the 532 cases of Guillan-Barré were found within the 48 million people receiving the swine flu vaccine. Accordig to Wikipedia, the incidence of Guillam-Barré is about 2 per 100,000 people per year. Statistically speaking, your example suggests that taking the swine flu vaccine is linked with a lower incidence of Guillam-Barre syndrome, nearly lowering it to about 60% of the baseline. If we're allowed to play fast and loose with back-of-the-napkin statistics, your example contradicts your original claims, and indeed makes a strong case in favour of vaccination.

bart_spoon 6y ago

> No-one is seriously calling for forced vaccination for corona Define forced. I'm not in favor of pinning people down and forcibly injecting them with something, but I am all for some kind of vaccination "passport", where if you don't have proof of vaccination you stop enjoying the benefits of society. No public schools or services, right for businesses to refuse service, etc. Or at the very least, a heavy tax fine or something a long those lines. If people choose to not get a vaccine, that's fine. But its time we align incentives to eliminate these externalities being born from societal free-loaders who believe in quack-science.