17 ms·

The key takeaway here is that this one, unlike Pfizer's, appears to be easier to store as it remains stable at minus 20C for up to six months and can be kept in

The key takeaway here is that this one, unlike Pfizer's, appears to be easier to store as it remains stable at minus 20C for up to six months and can be kept in a standard fridge for up to a month.

dystroy 6y ago
Isn't the difference more due to tests levels and announcement precautions ? Pfizer's announced temperature looks like the one for very long term ARN storage while standard fridge for a month doesn't look like it should alter ARN much. I'm not sure there's a real difference here.
- abacadaba 6y ago
  Anyone know the difference in delivery mechanism between these two? Both are mRNA right?
  - aphextron 6y ago
    >Anyone know the difference in delivery mechanism between these two? Both are mRNA right? They're extremely similar. Both are mRNA delivered via lipid nanoparticle vector.
  - dnautics 6y ago
    Who knows. Almost all therapeutic rnas have unnatural RNA bases or base linkages that are, for example, resistant to internal phosphatases/autohydrolysis to improve half life; half life can also depend on secondary structure, and of course as a sibling comment mentioned, it can depend on the stability of the lipid nanoparticles.
- mercurywells 6y ago
  Pfizer's can actually be stored for 5 days at normal fridge temperatures after removing it from deep-cold storage.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- thehappypm 6y ago
  I read in the New York Times article that Moderna and Pfizer use different (proprietary) lipid solutions in the vaccines. It's possible that Pfizer is just being overly cautious and they don't need the ultra cold storage, but it's also possible that Moderna has a fundamentally better solution.
bluGill 6y ago
Agreed, but the Pfizer vaccine isn't as bad as most people think: you get 5 days are normal freezer temperatures. That is more than enough time to drive from their manufacturing location in Wisconsin (this might be a cold storage faultily and manufacturing elsewhere - I'm not sure) to anywhere in North America - so long as wherever you drive to already has people lined up to get the vaccine. The above won't be hard to do for the first 3 months at least: just give the shot to health care workers as they come in for their scheduled shift. What gets hard is when you want to do a walk-in clinic: you need to figure out how much to order without knowing how many people will show up. Note, don't take the above as a statement that Pfizer will (or should) ship at higher temperatures. While it works out on paper that they can, they have been putting effort into arranging really cold shipment for a reason: it is best to give the entire time stored at higher temperatures to the end clinic. Human logistics are the hardest part of this and this and really cold shipment gives more flexibility to the hardest part. In any case: with both vaccines the hard part is ensuring people get their second dose on time after starting the shots! This is by far the most difficult logistical issue with either vaccine.
- devit 6y ago
  I would expect vaccination to be fully booked for a while, since it's going to be the most important thing in life to do for anyone not suffering from other serious issues and without anti-vaccination beliefs.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    > without anti-vaccination beliefs Please don't start creating this back-and-fourth. It's like saying "all drugs are good and have never had issues." I'm concerned about a vaccine developed and tested in less than a year. There are safety concerns. There are people under 40 who may not consider the risk high enough to take. (Look at what happened in the the 1970s with the Swing Flu vaccine that wasn't very effective, and although safely administered to millions, left 3,000 ~ 4,000 is long term neurological issues). I'm glad this vaccine is coming out and I think people in high risk groups should evaluate if they want to take the vaccine after weighing the risks. I do not want to see forced vaccinations for people who are concerned about safety.
formerly_proven 6y ago
Not to downplay Pfizer's role in logistics here, but they didn't really develop the vaccine. They're the logistics+manufacturing branch of the joint Biontech-Pfizer venture in this, while Biontech did the RND.
- lippel82 6y ago
  I am assuming they are also responsible for the clinical trials, but I'm not sure about that. It would make sense, though, because navigating the approval processes of the different agencies requires very specialized experience and domain knowledge.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    Yes, Biontech appears to be more of a long shot project aiming for a future where you can manipulate your immune system into fighting your cancer with a personalized vaccine. That's why they were in the unique position of having the skills for putting together an mRNA vaccine targeting the SARS-COV2 spike on very short notice without having established organizational knowledge of running those approval trials.
    - selectodude 6y ago
      Moderna has the same setup. They just happened to be able and willing to raise huge amounts of money (and play ball with the .gov) to produce it themselves. It's also why Pfizer is claiming they can produce a billion vaccines over the next year while Moderna is only saying they can do 100 million.
      - usrusr 6y ago
        Oh great, capitalism at it's best: there's an acute crisis, we might have the solution, but if we don't solve it vertically integrated we would have to share the spoils with a cooperation partner. This can't happen, quick! Bring in the investors!
exabrial 6y ago
Competition is always good!
jonplackett 6y ago
I’m curious - why is there such a difference between them? What is it specifically about the pfizer one that requires a lower temp? Does anyone know what the other potential vaccines (Oxford in particular) will require?
- contravariant 6y ago
  A biologists might be able to provide more detail but some big molecules are just inherently more stable than others, it can be incredibly tricky to predict this up front since it depends on complex interactions within the molecule itself. These are the kind of problems that projects like Folding@Home try to solve with lots of computing power (though I think they focus more on proteins, not sure if they also do RNA).
- deelowe 6y ago
  I read it mostly comes down to testing. Moderna is just further ahead and the pfizer vaccine may also survive higher temps.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Pfizer release their data ahead of Moderna. How is Moderna "ahead"? And no, stability testing happens pretty early on. Pfizer would have definitely collected enough data at this point to say whether or not their vaccine is stable at higher temperatures.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Pfizer released a press release, but as far as I can tell that isn't as much data. Given the time I'd guess that the mathematicians at Moderna worked all weekend crunching numbers and writing a paper (which is what I'd do if I was a statistician there). Pfizer is big enough to have/let a PR department do a press release during business hours. Of course given that Pfizer did a press release first Moderna for PR reasons needed to release more data to make a bigger splash. No matter how you look at it, there is important data that will be in the FDA (and equivalent in other countries) submission that we don't have. There could be a "thats funny" thing burred, though odds are against it.
CyanLite2 6y ago
The bigger takeaway is that Moderna's vaccine doesn't produce CD8+ (T-Cell) responses. Pfizer's T-Cell responses are off-the-charts good. This could affect your immune system's memory ability and could offer longer protection. Both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine offers CD4 T-Cell responses. CD8+ is a nice-to-have, so the Pfizer vaccine would be an A+ grade, and this Moderna one is a solid "A". The 2nd key takeaway here is that while 5 patients in the vaccination group tested positive for coronavirus, none of them had severe disease. Which means to me that while this vaccine isn't a magic shield, if you do get it, it will keep you out of the hospital and probably make it a very mild experience.
- rubicon33 6y ago
  It can already be a very mild experience for some people. The question is WHY?
  - SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
    Most of the time its because the person was young and fit. Unfortunately the majority of people are not healthy.
    - cabaalis 6y ago
      Totally anecdotally, the 4 people in my family who got it are all 65+ with multiple underlying issues. It was a bad head cold for a week and half, all recovered. I know, sadly, that isn't the case for so many. I just don't know what to think.
      - rubicon33 6y ago
        This is exactly my point, and yet my comment gets downvoted. People seem content with vaccines, meanwhile I want to understand WHY some people fair better than others. There's a far better solution than vaccines to be found, if people are willing to ask the question, and look for it.
      - adrianN 6y ago

The key takeaway here is that this one, unlike Pfizer's, appears to be easier to store as it remains stable at minus 20C for up to six months and can be kept in a standard fridge for up to a month.

dystroy 6y ago

Isn't the difference more due to tests levels and announcement precautions ? Pfizer's announced temperature looks like the one for very long term ARN storage while standard fridge for a month doesn't look like it should alter ARN much. I'm not sure there's a real difference here.

abacadaba 6y ago
Anyone know the difference in delivery mechanism between these two? Both are mRNA right?
- aphextron 6y ago
  >Anyone know the difference in delivery mechanism between these two? Both are mRNA right? They're extremely similar. Both are mRNA delivered via lipid nanoparticle vector.
- dnautics 6y ago
  Who knows. Almost all therapeutic rnas have unnatural RNA bases or base linkages that are, for example, resistant to internal phosphatases/autohydrolysis to improve half life; half life can also depend on secondary structure, and of course as a sibling comment mentioned, it can depend on the stability of the lipid nanoparticles.
mercurywells 6y ago
Pfizer's can actually be stored for 5 days at normal fridge temperatures after removing it from deep-cold storage.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
thehappypm 6y ago
I read in the New York Times article that Moderna and Pfizer use different (proprietary) lipid solutions in the vaccines. It's possible that Pfizer is just being overly cautious and they don't need the ultra cold storage, but it's also possible that Moderna has a fundamentally better solution.

bluGill 6y ago

Agreed, but the Pfizer vaccine isn't as bad as most people think: you get 5 days are normal freezer temperatures. That is more than enough time to drive from their manufacturing location in Wisconsin (this might be a cold storage faultily and manufacturing elsewhere - I'm not sure) to anywhere in North America - so long as wherever you drive to already has people lined up to get the vaccine. The above won't be hard to do for the first 3 months at least: just give the shot to health care workers as they come in for their scheduled shift. What gets hard is when you want to do a walk-in clinic: you need to figure out how much to order without knowing how many people will show up. Note, don't take the above as a statement that Pfizer will (or should) ship at higher temperatures. While it works out on paper that they can, they have been putting effort into arranging really cold shipment for a reason: it is best to give the entire time stored at higher temperatures to the end clinic. Human logistics are the hardest part of this and this and really cold shipment gives more flexibility to the hardest part. In any case: with both vaccines the hard part is ensuring people get their second dose on time after starting the shots! This is by far the most difficult logistical issue with either vaccine.

devit 6y ago
I would expect vaccination to be fully booked for a while, since it's going to be the most important thing in life to do for anyone not suffering from other serious issues and without anti-vaccination beliefs.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  > without anti-vaccination beliefs Please don't start creating this back-and-fourth. It's like saying "all drugs are good and have never had issues." I'm concerned about a vaccine developed and tested in less than a year. There are safety concerns. There are people under 40 who may not consider the risk high enough to take. (Look at what happened in the the 1970s with the Swing Flu vaccine that wasn't very effective, and although safely administered to millions, left 3,000 ~ 4,000 is long term neurological issues). I'm glad this vaccine is coming out and I think people in high risk groups should evaluate if they want to take the vaccine after weighing the risks. I do not want to see forced vaccinations for people who are concerned about safety.

formerly_proven 6y ago

Not to downplay Pfizer's role in logistics here, but they didn't really develop the vaccine. They're the logistics+manufacturing branch of the joint Biontech-Pfizer venture in this, while Biontech did the RND.

lippel82 6y ago
I am assuming they are also responsible for the clinical trials, but I'm not sure about that. It would make sense, though, because navigating the approval processes of the different agencies requires very specialized experience and domain knowledge.
- usrusr 6y ago
  Yes, Biontech appears to be more of a long shot project aiming for a future where you can manipulate your immune system into fighting your cancer with a personalized vaccine. That's why they were in the unique position of having the skills for putting together an mRNA vaccine targeting the SARS-COV2 spike on very short notice without having established organizational knowledge of running those approval trials.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    Moderna has the same setup. They just happened to be able and willing to raise huge amounts of money (and play ball with the .gov) to produce it themselves. It's also why Pfizer is claiming they can produce a billion vaccines over the next year while Moderna is only saying they can do 100 million.
    - usrusr 6y ago
      Oh great, capitalism at it's best: there's an acute crisis, we might have the solution, but if we don't solve it vertically integrated we would have to share the spoils with a cooperation partner. This can't happen, quick! Bring in the investors!

exabrial 6y ago

Competition is always good!

jonplackett 6y ago

I’m curious - why is there such a difference between them? What is it specifically about the pfizer one that requires a lower temp? Does anyone know what the other potential vaccines (Oxford in particular) will require?

contravariant 6y ago
A biologists might be able to provide more detail but some big molecules are just inherently more stable than others, it can be incredibly tricky to predict this up front since it depends on complex interactions within the molecule itself. These are the kind of problems that projects like Folding@Home try to solve with lots of computing power (though I think they focus more on proteins, not sure if they also do RNA).
deelowe 6y ago
I read it mostly comes down to testing. Moderna is just further ahead and the pfizer vaccine may also survive higher temps.
- refurb 6y ago
  Pfizer release their data ahead of Moderna. How is Moderna "ahead"? And no, stability testing happens pretty early on. Pfizer would have definitely collected enough data at this point to say whether or not their vaccine is stable at higher temperatures.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Pfizer released a press release, but as far as I can tell that isn't as much data. Given the time I'd guess that the mathematicians at Moderna worked all weekend crunching numbers and writing a paper (which is what I'd do if I was a statistician there). Pfizer is big enough to have/let a PR department do a press release during business hours. Of course given that Pfizer did a press release first Moderna for PR reasons needed to release more data to make a bigger splash. No matter how you look at it, there is important data that will be in the FDA (and equivalent in other countries) submission that we don't have. There could be a "thats funny" thing burred, though odds are against it.

CyanLite2 6y ago

The bigger takeaway is that Moderna's vaccine doesn't produce CD8+ (T-Cell) responses. Pfizer's T-Cell responses are off-the-charts good. This could affect your immune system's memory ability and could offer longer protection. Both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine offers CD4 T-Cell responses. CD8+ is a nice-to-have, so the Pfizer vaccine would be an A+ grade, and this Moderna one is a solid "A". The 2nd key takeaway here is that while 5 patients in the vaccination group tested positive for coronavirus, none of them had severe disease. Which means to me that while this vaccine isn't a magic shield, if you do get it, it will keep you out of the hospital and probably make it a very mild experience.

rubicon33 6y ago
It can already be a very mild experience for some people. The question is WHY?
- SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
  Most of the time its because the person was young and fit. Unfortunately the majority of people are not healthy.
  - cabaalis 6y ago
    Totally anecdotally, the 4 people in my family who got it are all 65+ with multiple underlying issues. It was a bad head cold for a week and half, all recovered. I know, sadly, that isn't the case for so many. I just don't know what to think.
    - rubicon33 6y ago
      This is exactly my point, and yet my comment gets downvoted. People seem content with vaccines, meanwhile I want to understand WHY some people fair better than others. There's a far better solution than vaccines to be found, if people are willing to ask the question, and look for it.
    - adrianN 6y ago