8 ms·

When 13.3 is greater than 14

84 points by danso 6y ago

LeoPanthera 6y ago
An aside, but the author says: "To me, the MacBook Pro 16" could have been the best programming laptop of all time if only Apple have been willing to provide Linux/Windows drivers. " Apple does in fact provide Windows drivers for the 16" MBP, as part of Boot Camp. (Though why you'd choose to run Windows over macOS is impossible for me to comprehend.)
- rovr138 6y ago
  How about a software dependency.
  - m463 6y ago
    or to run a game :) I have a mac pro 5,1 + nvidia that works pretty well with games on windows, but macos is a wasteland in this respect
darth_avocado 6y ago
I remember a time when laptops were supposed to be exactly what they suggest "lap" top, a computer that you can lug around easily and keep it in your lap while you work. Anything more than a 13 inch imo doesn't really adhere to those ideas. If I wanted a 16 inch screen, I'd use a desktop, or external monitors. But maybe that's just me.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Kind of a useless comment. Obviously there's personal preference. You switch from notebook PC to desktop/external monitors at 13". Others go from tablet to notebook to desktop. Etc. Sounds like something for your blog. Pretty obvious that there's a market for all of these considering that Apple has high-end devices targeting each segment. Pretty obvious there is utility along the spectrum for all individuals.
- danaris 6y ago
  I've consistently gotten the largest Mac laptop available over the last 15 years. That's been 17", 15", and 16", and it's a very comfortable size on my lap. (It sometimes gets a little cramped when a large cat wants to share my lap with it, but I can usually manage.) Naturally, this is going to vary depending on your physical size. A person who's small and slight of build isn't going to be as easily able to use a 16" laptop as me.
  - spijdar 6y ago
    The ergonomics of this also depends on the laptop itself. The large Macs are sort of uncommonly good at being used on the lap as a result of lacking the numpad and centering the keyboard/trackpad. My experience with trying to use my 15 inch Dell w/numpad on my lap is a bit more miserable, because I either have to position it off-center and hanging off my right leg, or type with my hands off-center, which becomes really uncomfortable quickly. I am tiny, though, so perhaps this would be less annoying to someone with bigger legs where it wouldn't be teetering off constantly.
- glogla 6y ago
  I think that kind of depends on how big your lap is - I can work on 15" MacBook Pro just fine, while sitting crosslegged. And of course also how big the laptop is with regards to screen size. For example, modern Dell XPS 13 has 13.4" screen but is narrower than 12" Thinkpads of old. And there's a big jump from 16" screen in a MacBook to "desktop monitor" which in modern office probably would be 27" 4k display.
vehemenz 6y ago
Not exactly breaking news unless you've been living in closet since widescreen panels came out. It is nice that some manufacturers (especially Microsoft) are putting out great aspect ratios for productivity. For productivity, I've found that the sweet spot seems to be either ultra widescreen (side by side applications), or multiple screens with 3:2 / 4:3 / 5:4. 16:10 is much better than 16:9 though, especially on a small device.
- hyperpl 6y ago
  I'm getting ready to sell my 16:9 thinkpad carbon x1 for the 16:10 nano or x1 2021. I'm OK with my 16:9 43" monitor because it's so big I get the vertical real-estate but my thinkpad feels as though it's really only useful for watching 16:9 videos which I don't do. If 2021 is the year of 16:10 for Thinkpad, then I'm hoping 2025 is the year of 3:2 and maybe hopefully sometime in 2030 we'll be full circle back to 4:3!
  - zepolen 6y ago
    Still don't understand why there is no love for LG: https://www.lg.com/us/laptops/lg-17u70n-r.aas8u1-ultra-slim-laptop https://www.lg.com/us/laptops/lg-17u70n-r.aas8u1-ultra-slim-... - 16gb ram (max 40gb) - 2 x nvme ssd - 17" 16:10 2560x1600 display - nvidia gpu - aluminium body 4.3 lbs - sd / usb / usbc / hdmi / ethernet ports - $1,699.99 (!) Or you could go for the intel gpu version which weighs 2.9lbs.
    - Eldandan 6y ago
      I suspect it's due to competing with the Dell XPS 17 2020. I prefer Thinkpad due to their keyboards and I am a trackpoint user, but if I really needed 16:10 then I would get something from Dell's XPS line. With the LG I'd be taking a risk with ergonomics such as the keyboard and trackpad, whereas I know what the XPS feels like.
      - zepolen 6y ago
        The keyboard/trackpad on the LG is imho better and having pixel less screen @ 17" with the added vertical height is a no contest for productivity. I took a risk on it as well and it's served really well as a daily worker. The XPS otoh is a (badly executed, no retina) macbook clone. LG brought out the first light 17" laptop two years ago when everyone was still on 15", but frankly if they don't get support then I'm afraid they'll stop releasing these machines.
Traster 6y ago
I can understand people want more vertical real estate, but for me the opposite is actually more useful. The thinkpad screen at 14" is wide enough for me to have two things side by side, often a command line and a file or two files, or (shocker) code beside documentation. Whilst vertical space is appreciated, the fact is that practically everything is taller than your screen. You are going to be scrolling vertically and everything supports that as an essential feature. Horizontal scroll is a nighmare however. It's also worth noting that Lenovo's 4k screen on the 15.6inch actually fits more pickels vertically than Apple's 16inch despite physically being shorter. Obviously YMMV with regards to what actually gets represented on your screen.
- patall 6y ago
  So one hardware feature (screen format) is like it is, because another hardware feature (horizontal scrolling) is not implemented? Especially touch pads can work perfectly well for horizontal scrolling. And if you actually use a mouse, in most cases nowadays, you have a desktop monitor and usually not one but multiple, so totally different rules apply there. But my biggest argument would be that we did not have problems with paper formats ever, but out of a sudden 16:10 or 16:9 is supposed to be better. Sure, software today is fitting a to a modern screen but that is only because it has been designed to fit such a screen.
- glogla 6y ago
  I guess I'm also a unique snowflake since I actually like 16:9 screens more than 16:10. For work, more vertical space is nice but so is more horizontal space - it's useful for longer lines and various sidebars and such that all software has lately. I don't really have a preference there. But for "fun" 16:9 is better since with 16:10 you have black bars in most media, no matter if it's a movie or conference talk or whatever. And fun is important use case for a laptop - I wanna watch movies on a plane or train, and even at home since it's mobile. Having big TV in living room is nice, but being able to watch cooking video right in the kitchen, or tinkering video in garage is great. I'm actually kinda bummed that Dell went to 16:10 on XPS 13, since I was eyeing that as my next laptop.
- nwallin 6y ago
bootlooped 6y ago
I'm unsatisfied this article didn't tell the reader the area of each screen. It's easy to imagine one vertical being larger than another, but actually having less area. This is not one of those cases. The 14" Lenovo screen actually has more area.
stronglikedan 6y ago
I've always understood it as 16:9 is for consuming video (consumers), and 16:10 is for editing video (creators), since you can fit a 1080p+ video at full width with an editing toolbar along the bottom.
- glogla 6y ago
  I think the 5k monitor Apple was selling for a while was the same idea - you can fit 4k video pixel for pixel and also the editing tools.
- Retr0spectrum 6y ago
  And 21:9 is for consuming "cinematic" video, or two 4:3-ish productivity apps side-by-side, with some space left over. I prefer 21:9 because I feel like it most closely matches my natural field of view.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    I enjoy my 34" 3440 x 1440, but I think that a 32" (or slightly larger) 4K might ultimately be the better choice while still fitting in my field of view.
- Dahoon 6y ago
  16:10 is A4 paper.
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    Metric paper sizes have the ratio sqrt(2), 1.414. (A0 has area 1m². Halving the sheet gets the next size. This works very nicely for scaling documents smaller or larger.)
  - innocenat 6y ago
    16:10 is closer to Legal (8.5" × 14") than A4 (which is 210 × 297 mm)
radimm 6y ago
Had exact say learning recently, when I tried MBP 13.3” after almost exclusive use of iPad Pro 12.9”. 4:3 screen gives me so much more text, so much more space in terminal I literally felt uncomfortable using 13.3” screen.
Speednet 6y ago
>> Microsoft is starting to make some really good machines like the Surface Laptop 3 (3:2)...alas with abysmal Linux support. Well, except for the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) in Windows 10. Also, "starting" to make? Someone's spending too much time on Apple computers to realize what's been happening the past several years.
systemvoltage 6y ago
Why aren’t there portrait notebooks? Imagine the width of MacBook Air keyboard as the shorter side and a long notepad like ratio, opens up with a taller height than width.
- flobosg 6y ago
  While not exactly the same, one can use a tablet in a vertical orientation with an external keyboard: https://daringfireball.net/misc/2020/03/ipad-pro-vertical.jpeg https://daringfireball.net/misc/2020/03/ipad-pro-vertical.jp...
lqet 6y ago
Proud owner of a Thinkpad R60 [0] here with a 4:3 display. Perfect for coding. (I hadn't planned on keeping it around for 14 years, but these things are simply indestructible) [0] https://thinkwiki.de/R60 https://thinkwiki.de/R60
rowanG077 6y ago
Just as a point to the remark that Linux doesn't work well on Surface products. It's true that it sucks out of the box. But with some patches it's pretty much hassle free. I've been running Linux on my pro for years without any problem.
imichael 6y ago
Maximizing vertical space is why I always put the task bar dock or whatever at the right. Plus you have less back and forth with the mouse because scrollbars are also on the right.
kentiko 6y ago
Remember the Chromebook Pixel and it's 3/2 screen? That thing was made for web browsing. https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3493458/new-chromebook-pixel-2267.0.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3493458/ne...
m463 6y ago
by the way, 99 is greater than 100 (on your microwave oven)

84 points by danso 6y ago

An aside, but the author says: "To me, the MacBook Pro 16" could have been the best programming laptop of all time if only Apple have been willing to provide Linux/Windows drivers. " Apple does in fact provide Windows drivers for the 16" MBP, as part of Boot Camp. (Though why you'd choose to run Windows over macOS is impossible for me to comprehend.)

rovr138 6y ago
How about a software dependency.
- m463 6y ago
  or to run a game :) I have a mac pro 5,1 + nvidia that works pretty well with games on windows, but macos is a wasteland in this respect

darth_avocado 6y ago

I remember a time when laptops were supposed to be exactly what they suggest "lap" top, a computer that you can lug around easily and keep it in your lap while you work. Anything more than a 13 inch imo doesn't really adhere to those ideas. If I wanted a 16 inch screen, I'd use a desktop, or external monitors. But maybe that's just me.

renewiltord 6y ago
Kind of a useless comment. Obviously there's personal preference. You switch from notebook PC to desktop/external monitors at 13". Others go from tablet to notebook to desktop. Etc. Sounds like something for your blog. Pretty obvious that there's a market for all of these considering that Apple has high-end devices targeting each segment. Pretty obvious there is utility along the spectrum for all individuals.
danaris 6y ago
I've consistently gotten the largest Mac laptop available over the last 15 years. That's been 17", 15", and 16", and it's a very comfortable size on my lap. (It sometimes gets a little cramped when a large cat wants to share my lap with it, but I can usually manage.) Naturally, this is going to vary depending on your physical size. A person who's small and slight of build isn't going to be as easily able to use a 16" laptop as me.
- spijdar 6y ago
  The ergonomics of this also depends on the laptop itself. The large Macs are sort of uncommonly good at being used on the lap as a result of lacking the numpad and centering the keyboard/trackpad. My experience with trying to use my 15 inch Dell w/numpad on my lap is a bit more miserable, because I either have to position it off-center and hanging off my right leg, or type with my hands off-center, which becomes really uncomfortable quickly. I am tiny, though, so perhaps this would be less annoying to someone with bigger legs where it wouldn't be teetering off constantly.
glogla 6y ago
I think that kind of depends on how big your lap is - I can work on 15" MacBook Pro just fine, while sitting crosslegged. And of course also how big the laptop is with regards to screen size. For example, modern Dell XPS 13 has 13.4" screen but is narrower than 12" Thinkpads of old. And there's a big jump from 16" screen in a MacBook to "desktop monitor" which in modern office probably would be 27" 4k display.

vehemenz 6y ago

Not exactly breaking news unless you've been living in closet since widescreen panels came out. It is nice that some manufacturers (especially Microsoft) are putting out great aspect ratios for productivity. For productivity, I've found that the sweet spot seems to be either ultra widescreen (side by side applications), or multiple screens with 3:2 / 4:3 / 5:4. 16:10 is much better than 16:9 though, especially on a small device.

hyperpl 6y ago
I'm getting ready to sell my 16:9 thinkpad carbon x1 for the 16:10 nano or x1 2021. I'm OK with my 16:9 43" monitor because it's so big I get the vertical real-estate but my thinkpad feels as though it's really only useful for watching 16:9 videos which I don't do. If 2021 is the year of 16:10 for Thinkpad, then I'm hoping 2025 is the year of 3:2 and maybe hopefully sometime in 2030 we'll be full circle back to 4:3!
- zepolen 6y ago
  Still don't understand why there is no love for LG: https://www.lg.com/us/laptops/lg-17u70n-r.aas8u1-ultra-slim-laptop https://www.lg.com/us/laptops/lg-17u70n-r.aas8u1-ultra-slim-... - 16gb ram (max 40gb) - 2 x nvme ssd - 17" 16:10 2560x1600 display - nvidia gpu - aluminium body 4.3 lbs - sd / usb / usbc / hdmi / ethernet ports - $1,699.99 (!) Or you could go for the intel gpu version which weighs 2.9lbs.
  - Eldandan 6y ago
    I suspect it's due to competing with the Dell XPS 17 2020. I prefer Thinkpad due to their keyboards and I am a trackpoint user, but if I really needed 16:10 then I would get something from Dell's XPS line. With the LG I'd be taking a risk with ergonomics such as the keyboard and trackpad, whereas I know what the XPS feels like.
    - zepolen 6y ago
      The keyboard/trackpad on the LG is imho better and having pixel less screen @ 17" with the added vertical height is a no contest for productivity. I took a risk on it as well and it's served really well as a daily worker. The XPS otoh is a (badly executed, no retina) macbook clone. LG brought out the first light 17" laptop two years ago when everyone was still on 15", but frankly if they don't get support then I'm afraid they'll stop releasing these machines.

Traster 6y ago

I can understand people want more vertical real estate, but for me the opposite is actually more useful. The thinkpad screen at 14" is wide enough for me to have two things side by side, often a command line and a file or two files, or (shocker) code beside documentation. Whilst vertical space is appreciated, the fact is that practically everything is taller than your screen. You are going to be scrolling vertically and everything supports that as an essential feature. Horizontal scroll is a nighmare however. It's also worth noting that Lenovo's 4k screen on the 15.6inch actually fits more pickels vertically than Apple's 16inch despite physically being shorter. Obviously YMMV with regards to what actually gets represented on your screen.

patall 6y ago
So one hardware feature (screen format) is like it is, because another hardware feature (horizontal scrolling) is not implemented? Especially touch pads can work perfectly well for horizontal scrolling. And if you actually use a mouse, in most cases nowadays, you have a desktop monitor and usually not one but multiple, so totally different rules apply there. But my biggest argument would be that we did not have problems with paper formats ever, but out of a sudden 16:10 or 16:9 is supposed to be better. Sure, software today is fitting a to a modern screen but that is only because it has been designed to fit such a screen.
glogla 6y ago
I guess I'm also a unique snowflake since I actually like 16:9 screens more than 16:10. For work, more vertical space is nice but so is more horizontal space - it's useful for longer lines and various sidebars and such that all software has lately. I don't really have a preference there. But for "fun" 16:9 is better since with 16:10 you have black bars in most media, no matter if it's a movie or conference talk or whatever. And fun is important use case for a laptop - I wanna watch movies on a plane or train, and even at home since it's mobile. Having big TV in living room is nice, but being able to watch cooking video right in the kitchen, or tinkering video in garage is great. I'm actually kinda bummed that Dell went to 16:10 on XPS 13, since I was eyeing that as my next laptop.
nwallin 6y ago

bootlooped 6y ago

I'm unsatisfied this article didn't tell the reader the area of each screen. It's easy to imagine one vertical being larger than another, but actually having less area. This is not one of those cases. The 14" Lenovo screen actually has more area.

stronglikedan 6y ago

I've always understood it as 16:9 is for consuming video (consumers), and 16:10 is for editing video (creators), since you can fit a 1080p+ video at full width with an editing toolbar along the bottom.

glogla 6y ago
I think the 5k monitor Apple was selling for a while was the same idea - you can fit 4k video pixel for pixel and also the editing tools.
Retr0spectrum 6y ago
And 21:9 is for consuming "cinematic" video, or two 4:3-ish productivity apps side-by-side, with some space left over. I prefer 21:9 because I feel like it most closely matches my natural field of view.
- lliamander 6y ago
  I enjoy my 34" 3440 x 1440, but I think that a 32" (or slightly larger) 4K might ultimately be the better choice while still fitting in my field of view.
Dahoon 6y ago
16:10 is A4 paper.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  Metric paper sizes have the ratio sqrt(2), 1.414. (A0 has area 1m². Halving the sheet gets the next size. This works very nicely for scaling documents smaller or larger.)
- innocenat 6y ago
  16:10 is closer to Legal (8.5" × 14") than A4 (which is 210 × 297 mm)

radimm 6y ago

Had exact say learning recently, when I tried MBP 13.3” after almost exclusive use of iPad Pro 12.9”. 4:3 screen gives me so much more text, so much more space in terminal I literally felt uncomfortable using 13.3” screen.

Speednet 6y ago

>> Microsoft is starting to make some really good machines like the Surface Laptop 3 (3:2)...alas with abysmal Linux support. Well, except for the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) in Windows 10. Also, "starting" to make? Someone's spending too much time on Apple computers to realize what's been happening the past several years.

systemvoltage 6y ago

Why aren’t there portrait notebooks? Imagine the width of MacBook Air keyboard as the shorter side and a long notepad like ratio, opens up with a taller height than width.

flobosg 6y ago
While not exactly the same, one can use a tablet in a vertical orientation with an external keyboard: https://daringfireball.net/misc/2020/03/ipad-pro-vertical.jpeg https://daringfireball.net/misc/2020/03/ipad-pro-vertical.jp...

lqet 6y ago

Proud owner of a Thinkpad R60 [0] here with a 4:3 display. Perfect for coding. (I hadn't planned on keeping it around for 14 years, but these things are simply indestructible) [0] https://thinkwiki.de/R60 https://thinkwiki.de/R60

rowanG077 6y ago

Just as a point to the remark that Linux doesn't work well on Surface products. It's true that it sucks out of the box. But with some patches it's pretty much hassle free. I've been running Linux on my pro for years without any problem.

imichael 6y ago

Maximizing vertical space is why I always put the task bar dock or whatever at the right. Plus you have less back and forth with the mouse because scrollbars are also on the right.

kentiko 6y ago

Remember the Chromebook Pixel and it's 3/2 screen? That thing was made for web browsing. https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3493458/new-chromebook-pixel-2267.0.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3493458/ne...

m463 6y ago

by the way, 99 is greater than 100 (on your microwave oven)