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This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who think their side are the victims and the other side are the creeping fascists. Hate to break it to you, in the United States we're screwed two ways over. Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). Both the left and the right in the US have enemies lists, and have effective propaganda wings that eviscerate opponents and call basic and decent democratic norms into question (free speech, elections). Both sides use identity and demographics to sow division and resentment between groups. Maybe there's some hope for the shrinking, rational middle that two creeping fascisms cancel each other out, and will in the future. But that's a pretty long bet to make, too. For the rest of us paying attention and who, in the words of the piece, "think about fundamental things", it has already started and it is very, very scary where it may end up.

jolux 6y ago
Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder Democratic government officials. I'm not denying that the left has ever used extreme violence in the US. The Weather Underground is the most famous example. I will however argue that those days are over for the left, with the vast majority of leftists being nonviolent and pacifists, and a small few committed to armed defense, but not offense.
- rbecker 6y ago
  Instead, they're chanting "White silence equals violence". I'm sure demonization of a group that's on the way to becoming a minority will work out great.
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  The left and right deploy violence differently. Right wing violence is more precise, organized, surgical. Left wing violence is more chaotic, mob-driven, indiscriminate. Hence the mass rioting and destruction this summer, tacitly supported by major sections of the left-wing power structure in the US (local government and media).
  - jolux 6y ago
    Much of the violence at protests this past summer was actually organized by right-wing extremists, possibly as a false flag: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-po...
    - anonunivgrad 6y ago
      Fake spin meant to assuage the girondins, the well-to-do leftists. The footage and evidence is extensive and obvious.
      - jolux 6y ago
        This is based on information from BlueLeaks, which you're free to call fake spin, and I am free to disagree with you on.
        ajvs 6y ago
        There's nothing in that article suggesting a false flag. At most Hina Shamsi suggests that leftist actions are being judged more harshly.
        jolux 6y ago
        Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.
- jvanderbot 6y ago
  It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people regularly, and they both tend to follow logical interpretations to inevitably polarizing and unhealthy conclusions. Both are not living in current reality, they are projecting their beliefs about the other side's agenda based on what they see on the news, and saying "I don't want to live in that world".
  - jolux 6y ago
    What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      You're supposed to recognize that many of your positions look equally bizarre and scary to the other side, and conclude that to a significant degree this is a gap in understanding rather than a gap in morals.
      - jolux 6y ago
        Yes, but what matters most is not how my beliefs appear to the other side, but whose beliefs are closest to the truth. I have little control over what other people believe, but I have some control over what I believe, and I strive to be rational and realistic and follow the truth.
        dahfizz 6y ago
        That depends entirely on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to move beyond self satisfaction and actually effect change, you need to be concerned with how your message is conveyed. What are your beliefs for?
- stickyricky 6y ago
  > showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.
  - jolux 6y ago
    That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antifa-portland-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif....
    - stickyricky 6y ago
      That does not contradict my point.
      - jolux 6y ago
        You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.
        solarhoma 6y ago
        Vice interviewed the person who killed the Trump supporter in cold blood. Yes, there was no official case against the person. But the police knew who the murderer was. This is why a shootout occurred and no other individual is being charged or sought after AFAIK.
        jolux 6y ago
        > the police knew who the murderer was. This is not how the justice system works in America, just so you know. The system you describe is horrifying.
- ajvs 6y ago
  Antifa have committed numerous enough acts of violence to be labeled a domestic terrorist group and instead of plots you have actual congressmen (Steve Scalise) being shot by a leftist. HN is a place for avoiding our biases not doubling down on them.
  - _iyig 6y ago
    Don’t forget Aaron Danielson, Lee Keltner, David Dorn, and Antonio Mays Jr., if for not other reason than to understand anger on the right (and from moderates) at their deaths. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-danielson-died-from-gunshot-wound-to-chest-medical-examiner-says.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-daniel... https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-wants-justice-denver-shooting-security-guard-matthew-doloff/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-want... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-what-happened-at-the-chop-shooting-that-killed-a-teenager-and-led-to-the-areas-shutdown/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...
  - vixen99 6y ago
    Why not double down? Go on - a few more clicks and you won't even see be reminded anymore of what everyone has seen over the summer in many US cities. And it worked!
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Anybody can label anybody as a terrorist group. I’m not sure that says anything useful. The shooting does count though, as far as I know.
- _iyig 6y ago
  How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this area to the violent mob for roughly a month. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-reports-new-details-in-shooting-death-of-16-year-old-rico-a-southern-california-kid-who-ran-away-to-chop/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep...
  - jolux 6y ago
    I'm friends with several people that participated in CHAZ and your assessment of it is incorrect. It was doomed from the start but calling the people occupying it a violent mob is not correct. I personally believe it was a mistake because the people occupying it did not have or want a monopoly on the use of force in their area, meaning that it became a site of unrelated mob and gang violence because the police were not present. That's different from saying it was a violent mob who occupied it with the intent to harm others.
    - _iyig 6y ago
      The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’ hands to delete footage of the “security team’s” deadly mistakes, assaulted visitors of the wrong political stripe, and ultimately were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people. While the atmosphere was more “street festival” during the day, at least for a while, at night and as the occupation wore on it swiftly devolved into violent anarchy. Remember Raz Simone, the local rapper who showed up on the first night with an AK-47? Remember how he handed out rifles to seemingly random untrained people from the trunk of a car? Remember how his crew assaulted and pistol-whipped a graffiti tagger on the very first night of CHAZ/CHOP, on a Facebook Live stream, saying “we are the police now?” Many similar incidents. https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-warlord-no-cop-co-op https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-w...
- baggy_trough 6y ago
  This is demonstrably false.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Feel free to demonstrate it :)
    - baggy_trough 6y ago
      Certainly there has been far more violence from the left than from the right over the past few years as a read through any newspaper will indicate. I suppose I wouldn't classify most of it as paramilitary in nature though. I would describe antifa as an organized violent mob, at least.
      - jolux 6y ago
        "I've read a lot about it in a newspaper" is not a demonstration. Here, I'll give you some evidence for my position: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-gro...
        baggy_trough 6y ago
        You honestly dispute the claim that the large majority of political violence in the United States over the past year was leftist in origin?
- sfg 6y ago
  > Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it.
  - solarhoma 6y ago
    It’s amazing. The top reply to his post does just this.
    - jolux 6y ago
      I care more about what is true than I care about trying to provide false balance between unequal positions. If you see me as missing the message, so be it. A request to treat "both sides" of this situation as equals is a request to ignore reality, which I refuse to do.
      - solarhoma 6y ago
        You are, again, simply speaking of your own reality. Simply because you hold an idea to be true does not make that idea true. This is not mathematics. You cannot ‘prove‘ one side to be true. This applies to my side as well as yours.
- mistrial9 6y ago
  I believe there is a mentally-ill man down the hall that thinks he is Antifa, and definitely plans violence all the time, but he is too weak and unstable to do it in reality.. perhaps a powerful image for his weak and unstable mind to fixate on.. does this equate to a real threat? hard to say, he lives largely in a fantasy world and has few contacts with people.. Its no secret that the mentally ill, badly damaged and socially disadvantaged have historially flocked to extreme campaigns -> on either side <- of this inflamed debate Peace as espoused by various religions, becomes a powerful antidote as a social message -- I support that messege, personally
  - jolux 6y ago
    It's not primarily mentally ill people who call themselves antifascists or Proud Boys though, and believing that is going to severely hamper your analysis of them.
- throwthrowawyy 6y ago
  Man accused of hatching plot to kidnap Whitmer is BLM supporter and made comments critical of police >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-is-blm-supporter-and-made-comments-critical-of-police/ar-BB19UUXD https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-pl... In the age of agent provocateurs[0], it is hard to really know the truth even if you are present at the scene. There is only so much time in a day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
  - jolux 6y ago
    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-image/looking-ideologies-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-suspect/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-imag... >There’s no evidence that the suspects arrested in connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are antifa activists. >Before his arrest, one of the suspects attended a Black Lives Matter protest. Another suspect criticized the movement. >State and federal documents make no mention of antifa or Black Lives Matter. Rather, they reference an anti-government militia group. >Michigan’s attorney general has said white supremacist and anti-government groups acted “in concert based on a shared extreme ideology.”
- jhallenworld 6y ago
  What should the left do about the looting? Police confronting protesters in the front, looting going on in the rear.. (Here is a reminder video:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY I am all for BLM protests in general, but the looting only provokes more extreme responses from the right. I also blame the police- they rather confront peaceful protesters than go after actual thugs. Having a class of people redlined into ghettos who have no stake in the wealthier parts of society is the root of this, but what to do about it?
- jimbob45 6y ago
  I’m not sure why you’re ignoring BLM. They’re the biggest terrorist organization of the last year, organizing riots and orchestrating widespread looting. How can you call the left peaceable after that?
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  >Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. They're not [1][2]? [1] -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/weareallhizbullahnowreall https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/wearea... [2] -- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-finding...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. The last thing we need here is yet another angry, generic argument between left ideology and right ideology. Those are utterly repetitive, and therefore tedious, and therefore off topic on HN. That's not to say the issues aren't important; of course they are. But this site has a particular scope and repetitive flamewars aren't in it. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595. 40+ comments in a thread like this is beyond excessive.
watwut 6y ago
Who exactly is rational middle in your view? Who exactly is right wing side and who exactly is left wing side? Is democratic party along with Joe Biden really controlling violent antifa? Is antifa actually killing people and attempting kidnappings? Is democratic party really attacking elections the way president is now? The rational middle will be dwindling as long as they are always referred to in abstract without ever naming names.
- didericis 6y ago
  I can’t speak for the person you’re asking, but Tulsi Gabbard is representative of what I see as the rational middle.
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    The only way you can see Tulsi as the "middle" is because the overton window has slammed so far right. In a rational society, Biden and Obama would be considered middle and AOC/Bernie left.
    - youareostriches 6y ago
      In most countries around the world, Sanders' policies are mainstream.
      - mrguyorama 6y ago
        That's not entirely true, Sanders often doesn't support gun control
    - cure 6y ago
      Yeah. Compared to the rest of the world, the entire left half of the political spectrum is more or less missing in the US. The democrats are a center right party. The republicans are at this point, a far right party. It has been a deliberate strategy of the far right to paint the center as "socialism" (which a lot of Americans seem to mistake for communism...), because it makes their ideology seem less extreme. A lot of Americans have fallen for that nonsense, unfortunately. Definitions and framing and perspective matters a lot.
na85 6y ago
>Both the left and the right [...] call basic and decent democratic norms into question (free speech, elections). I only see Republicans doing this, but I am not American so perhaps my perspective is not as acute as someone "on the inside". Can you link to instances of Democrats calling free speech and elections into question?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cal5k 6y ago
  I suppose you missed the 3-year period where Trump was supposedly a Russian agent who stole the election? That's just the tenor of American politics right now in general.
  - Delmania 6y ago
    No one made that claim except right wing media. They said, and this was proven, there was collusion among members of his campaign to influence the election.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    When the left complained that Trump became president while several million more people wanted his opponent to win, characterizing that as 'stealing the election' does not seem particularly unfair. And given the oddly pervasive connections between Trump's family and Russia, I can't really fault people for thinking there might very well be a connection. An awful lot of smoke, there is.
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      Honestly, the _incredibly_ numerous sexual assault complaints against him should have disqualified him at the start, especially when combined with his publicly indecent behaviour.
      - paulnechifor 6y ago
goat_whisperer 6y ago
Ah, yes. There were very fine people on both sides!
vincentmarle 6y ago
There is no “antifa”, everyone in the US should be antifascist.
- claydavisss 6y ago
  "antifa" as a label only exists to make Bakunin-style Marxists unassailable. I hope you didn't fall for it.
- boieruai 6y ago
  ...being antifascist ... by adopting brownshirt tactics.
lisper 6y ago
I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things are key. Once you subscribe to the idea that whatever the Dear Leader says is true, evidence be damned, you are lost. The right is doing this even as I write this. The left never has.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  > does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections You may not be old enough to remember, but Al Gore (democrat) did _exactly_ this 20 years ago.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
    Al Gore gave a decent concession speech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5YdkYSyEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5YdkYSyEE I didn't recall the date though, I checked and it was on December 13th, 2000. Come back on 14 December 2020 and tell me if that aspect is "exactly this". because the narrow vote count margin aspect that time really isn't, and the claims of fraud and rigging this time really isn't. And neither bode well for a hypothetical Trump concession speech.
  - youareostriches 6y ago
    Al Gore never claimed that he was the only legitimate winner months before the election began and that any result in which he lost would be fraudulent.
  - glitcher 6y ago
    It's quite the revisionist stretch to claim "exactly". There were many very different circumstances.
    - glitcher 6y ago
Delmania 6y ago
>Hate to break it to you, in the United States we're screwed two ways over. Both the left and the >right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). Both the left and the right in the US have >enemies lists, and have effective propaganda wings that eviscerate opponents and call basic and >decent democratic norms into question (free speech, elections). Both sides use identity and >demographics to sow division and resentment between groups. bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe!!!!!111 No, they're not. And I know I'll get downvoted for this. Trying to equate the Proud Boys, which is definite example of an organized right wing paramilitary group with antifa which is a loosely defined movement is a false equivalency. The "left" is not trying question voting. Rather, we've tried to make voting more accessible to all and ensure all votes are counted. Eviscerating free speech? Is that the made up "cancel culture"? You mean driving hateful and intolerant messages off social media? Alex Jones et. al made have been deplatformed, but as far as I know, he still has a media presence on Fox News, OAN, etc. Identity politics? You mean BLM? Or maybe the desire to make it so our politicians are more diverse as opposed to overwhelming represent a single demographic? Both side are the same, calls for centrism, etc. are nothing more than an attempt to absolve oneself of your responsibility to stay informed and be active in civic life. It's an attempt to excuse yourself from voting, etc. No, both sides are demonstrably not the same.
rootusrootus 6y ago
The moment you decide that everyone else is crazy and you are the rational guy in the middle, it's time to take a step back.
war1025 6y ago
You made the mistake of questioning the purity of the "Left". It angers the hive-mind.
jascii 6y ago
"Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys)." I'm not sure I would consider Antifa "paramilitary". Antifa doesn't have a military style chain of command, nor an organized use of firearms. While the proud boys have more of a hierarchical command structure, it's still a bit of a stretch to call them "paramilitary", there does however seem to be some shared membership with right wing paramilitary militia.
youareostriches 6y ago
This is both-sidesism, which is an intellectually lazy excuse to avoid taking action while appearing morally above the fray. Trump literally uses cult-like techniques to control his followers, traffics in conspiracy theories, attacks as "fake" any news media which doesn't praise him effusively, and is actively undermining democracy itself by claiming that any votes against him are illegitimate. There is no vaguely liberal or left politician in US history who has done what Trump has.
pontus 6y ago
I broadly agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's fair at this point to equate what's going on on the left to what's going on on the right. They are leagues apart. That's not to say that the same thing couldn't happen on the left or that the people on the left in some way are superior. Quite the opposite. I think the people on the left are just as susceptible to the type of effects happening on the right. I often wonder what would have happened if Trump had run as a democrat in 2016 instead talking about being pro-choice and how we need to get medicare for all etc. If he had run against someone like Ted Cruz, I would not be surprised if a lot of the left (myself included) had voted for Trump and excused all his talk as "locker room talk" or "speaking his mind" just like the right ultimately did. It may be nothing more than an accident that the right was the side that "fell victim" to his antics. This brings me to a serious worry of mine. A lot of people are talking about how Trump is too incompetent to successfully install himself as a dictator, but that the next person may be much more competent. These "warnings" are directed toward the right. However, there's nothing that prevents the next dictator wanna-be from being on the left, and the left needs to be equally vigilant.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  The left had something similar in 2016, in Bernie Sanders. The differences were that he didn't have the locker room talk (that I know of), and he didn't have the dictatorial tendencies (that I know of). But he was an insurgent from outside the party (he wasn't a Democrat, though he may have joined the party in 2016 for his run). In the same way, Trump wasn't really a Republican. (He did join the party, but somewhat recently.) Yes, I realize that this is degenerating into No True Scotsman, but both were outsiders who tried to hijack the parties. Trump succeeded, Bernie failed because the Democratic Party manipulated things and the Republican Party let things happen. The groundwork has been laid, on both sides. And the Democrats got raked over the coals for tilting the scales against Bernie, so they might not do it next time.
  - krapp 6y ago
    To be fair, the Republican Party only let things happen after they tried really hard to get rid of Trump themselves.
pcj-github 6y ago
It is disheartening that a person such as yourself (looked at your bio) would draw these false equivalences between radicalism on the right and left. Four years ago these concepts would not have even remotely been part of your vocabulary, but now you sort of lay down and accept it as "we're screwed two ways over?" This is exactly the kind of psychological creep eluded to in the article.
coliveira 6y ago
"Great people on both sides", that's the rally chant of the US president...
- boieruai 6y ago
  "And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people."
- paulnechifor 6y ago
  That's intentionally taken out of context. He specifically said that nazis and racists are not included and that they should be condemned.
csomar 6y ago
> Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). They are both irrelevant comparing to the US military. Germany, when Hitler rose to power, had a bad economy and weak military but I think he did give up to the military choices at the end of the day. The US military is a behemoth who could decimate the left and right paramilitaries in a few days, and then go to invade Argentina. Having lived in a region where countries changed regimes from dictatorship to democracy to dictatorship multiple times, it seems that there is one similarity: The military has the final shot; and a weak or no military meant chaos (Libya/Yemen/Lebanon) since every paramilitary now has a shot at power. It'll be much easier to predict the outcome by knowing the US military. Does it support Republican or Democrat values? Does it care for democracy? Is it fed up with current day politics?
- _iyig 6y ago
  In my personal experience, the U.S. military - Army in particular - firmly drills “loyalty to the Constitution, not the President” into every soldier. The top U.S. general gave a speech to that effect earlier this week. You can draw your own conclusions as to the timing of his remarks: >” We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price," Milley said during remarks at the opening of the US Army's museum. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/12/politics/mark-milley-pentagon-turmoil/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/12/politics/mark-milley-pentagon...
rubiquity 6y ago
This is a terrible opinion dressed up in nice writing and this approach is usually used as a tactic by far right conspiracy theorists to recruit people in doubt to their side. The left/liberal/progressive side is not nearly as offensive, manipulative, or fascist as the right/conservatives even in the most extreme cases, and saying so is harmful.
hinkley 6y ago
Just watched The Sound of Music again a few weeks ago. As a kid I just knew the bad guys come and the heroes outsmart them. These days, I see more and more the acting chops of Christopher Plummer - the bad guys are already here and all that's left is hope and trying to maintain a bubble for your children. From scene one he is a goose on a pond. Serene above the waterline but roiling below.
- triangleman 6y ago
  Ironically did you ever notice that The Sound of Music is actually sympathetic towards fascism under the surface? http://www.critical-theory.com/watch-zizek-explain-why-the-sound-of-music-is-fucked/ http://www.critical-theory.com/watch-zizek-explain-why-the-s...
SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago
> Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). If you believe this, you are severely misinformed; if you don't believe this, you are a liar. Either way, it is nefarious. I've been to every single counter-protest of the proud boys in Portland. Who brings guns? Proud boys, 3%ers, PatPrayer, and Trump supporters. Who doesn't bring guns? Counter protestors. Who gets arrested from bringing guns to a protest? No one. Who protects the proud boys? The police. Who gets shot at by police? Counter protestors. I had a gun pointed at me by a Proud Boy amongst his militia several months ago. I've been bear-sprayed but thugs with ARs strapped to their bloated bellies. Don't for one instant try to pull this "both sides have mililitias" bullshit. It is so clearly right-wing propaganda. P.S. And I know what you are about to say next, "But a Trump supporter got shot in portland..." YEs, he did, and it was awful, and then the Feds shot the perp w/o due process, while Rittenhouse gets a pat on the back. There were NOT heavily-armed groups of counter protestors on the left, but there sure as hell are from the right, all the time.
setpatchaddress 6y ago
"antifa" isn't paramilitary or any other sort of group. It's a contraction of "anti-fascist" and is simply a tenet that many people hold. "Proud Boys" are an organized domestic terrorist group, not a label for a set of beliefs. There was real, violent, semi-organized left-wing radicalism in the USA in the 1970's. Not since. It may return! But it hasn't yet. You might want to be more skeptical of the media you're consuming that led you to believe this. Or the persons you've been talking to.
bmmayer1 6y ago
Looks like I accidentally started a flame war here! Funtimes. My answer to some common replies: 1) "But the [left/right] is much worse": you're sorta making my point. Even if the other "side" may be worse now, if you're honest with yourself, I'm sure you can see where your partisans have crossed some lines, too. And the whole point of this piece is authoritarianism and fascism grows slowly over time, so "We're slightly further down the fascism hill right now so we're better" isn't a heartening response 2) "This is 'Both sidesism'!!!" First of all, I don't claim there are good people on both sides, I claim there are bad people on both sides. Very bad, sycophantic people who see the worst in others, assume the worst motives, and are willing to stop at nothing, including murder, to achieve their ends. Yes, for many issues there is a "right" and a "wrong" and these could theoretically be discovered through empirical testing and observation. But we're not talking about individual issues here, we're talking about national / political identities and the complex social and tribal bonds that make people even choose "a side" in the first place. 3) "You have to speak out / choose a side, or are you morally complicit in evil" Don't entirely disagree. That said, extremism is polarizing and destructive of rationality and humane discourse, regardless of where it comes from. Just because we are all sort of forced to "pick a side" when the gravitational forces are so strong, that doesn't mean that the side we pick will be right all the time or even a force for moral good, just a temporary stopgap against moral evil. That doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility to identify evil and speak against it when you see it. It's just a lot harder for those people who see much evil amongst two large constituencies that see themselves as wholly Good, than it is for those people who are wholly convinced of their Good and the absolute Evil of the other side. And although I don't claim to be either rational or in the middle, I do believe I am right about the creeping fascist tendencies present in the polar extremes of American politics -- and there's no better evidence of the truth of my comment that it is being downvoted and commented into oblivion by partisans on both sides :)
- dang 6y ago
  Please neither start nor perpetuate political flamewars on HN. We don't need fiery arguments about endlessly repeated details that are available everywhere else. We need thoughtful, curious conversation on non-obvious topics of intellectual interest. Political interest may intersect with intellectual interest but the two are not the same, and they become disjoint as passions rise. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
andrewclunn 6y ago
When the right goes fascist, they state as much. When the left does it, they claim it's to fight fascism. I know right wing fascists. They know exactly what they are, and will openly defend it as "necessary evil." One need only read comments on censorious sites (like this one) to see that the left wing will silence their enemies and call it freedom, strike their adversaries and call it self defense, convict on hearsay and call it justice. A man who willingly turns himself into a monster because he believes he must is a scary thing, but will hardly become a full on movement. For that, the monsters must believe they are not such. This is why the left are the real fascist threat, but the feigned pseudo intellectual zeitgeist of this place will never see such a truth.
confidantlake 6y ago
This BOTHSIDES!!!! argument is such disingenuous nonsense. There is no leftwing fascism in the US. Hillary Clinton conceded quickly after in a much closer election. She did not spout lies about widespread fraud and refuse to concede.

jolux 6y ago

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder Democratic government officials. I'm not denying that the left has ever used extreme violence in the US. The Weather Underground is the most famous example. I will however argue that those days are over for the left, with the vast majority of leftists being nonviolent and pacifists, and a small few committed to armed defense, but not offense.

rbecker 6y ago
Instead, they're chanting "White silence equals violence". I'm sure demonization of a group that's on the way to becoming a minority will work out great.
anonunivgrad 6y ago
The left and right deploy violence differently. Right wing violence is more precise, organized, surgical. Left wing violence is more chaotic, mob-driven, indiscriminate. Hence the mass rioting and destruction this summer, tacitly supported by major sections of the left-wing power structure in the US (local government and media).
- jolux 6y ago
  Much of the violence at protests this past summer was actually organized by right-wing extremists, possibly as a false flag: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-po...
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    Fake spin meant to assuage the girondins, the well-to-do leftists. The footage and evidence is extensive and obvious.
    - jolux 6y ago
      This is based on information from BlueLeaks, which you're free to call fake spin, and I am free to disagree with you on.
      - ajvs 6y ago
        There's nothing in that article suggesting a false flag. At most Hina Shamsi suggests that leftist actions are being judged more harshly.
        jolux 6y ago
        Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.
jvanderbot 6y ago
It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people regularly, and they both tend to follow logical interpretations to inevitably polarizing and unhealthy conclusions. Both are not living in current reality, they are projecting their beliefs about the other side's agenda based on what they see on the news, and saying "I don't want to live in that world".
- jolux 6y ago
  What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    You're supposed to recognize that many of your positions look equally bizarre and scary to the other side, and conclude that to a significant degree this is a gap in understanding rather than a gap in morals.
    - jolux 6y ago
      Yes, but what matters most is not how my beliefs appear to the other side, but whose beliefs are closest to the truth. I have little control over what other people believe, but I have some control over what I believe, and I strive to be rational and realistic and follow the truth.
      - dahfizz 6y ago
        That depends entirely on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to move beyond self satisfaction and actually effect change, you need to be concerned with how your message is conveyed. What are your beliefs for?
stickyricky 6y ago
> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.
- jolux 6y ago
  That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antifa-portland-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif....
  - stickyricky 6y ago
    That does not contradict my point.
    - jolux 6y ago
      You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.
      - solarhoma 6y ago
        Vice interviewed the person who killed the Trump supporter in cold blood. Yes, there was no official case against the person. But the police knew who the murderer was. This is why a shootout occurred and no other individual is being charged or sought after AFAIK.
        jolux 6y ago
        > the police knew who the murderer was. This is not how the justice system works in America, just so you know. The system you describe is horrifying.
ajvs 6y ago
Antifa have committed numerous enough acts of violence to be labeled a domestic terrorist group and instead of plots you have actual congressmen (Steve Scalise) being shot by a leftist. HN is a place for avoiding our biases not doubling down on them.
- _iyig 6y ago
  Don’t forget Aaron Danielson, Lee Keltner, David Dorn, and Antonio Mays Jr., if for not other reason than to understand anger on the right (and from moderates) at their deaths. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-danielson-died-from-gunshot-wound-to-chest-medical-examiner-says.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-daniel... https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-wants-justice-denver-shooting-security-guard-matthew-doloff/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-want... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-what-happened-at-the-chop-shooting-that-killed-a-teenager-and-led-to-the-areas-shutdown/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...
- vixen99 6y ago
  Why not double down? Go on - a few more clicks and you won't even see be reminded anymore of what everyone has seen over the summer in many US cities. And it worked!
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Anybody can label anybody as a terrorist group. I’m not sure that says anything useful. The shooting does count though, as far as I know.
_iyig 6y ago
How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this area to the violent mob for roughly a month. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-reports-new-details-in-shooting-death-of-16-year-old-rico-a-southern-california-kid-who-ran-away-to-chop/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep...
- jolux 6y ago
  I'm friends with several people that participated in CHAZ and your assessment of it is incorrect. It was doomed from the start but calling the people occupying it a violent mob is not correct. I personally believe it was a mistake because the people occupying it did not have or want a monopoly on the use of force in their area, meaning that it became a site of unrelated mob and gang violence because the police were not present. That's different from saying it was a violent mob who occupied it with the intent to harm others.
  - _iyig 6y ago
    The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’ hands to delete footage of the “security team’s” deadly mistakes, assaulted visitors of the wrong political stripe, and ultimately were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people. While the atmosphere was more “street festival” during the day, at least for a while, at night and as the occupation wore on it swiftly devolved into violent anarchy. Remember Raz Simone, the local rapper who showed up on the first night with an AK-47? Remember how he handed out rifles to seemingly random untrained people from the trunk of a car? Remember how his crew assaulted and pistol-whipped a graffiti tagger on the very first night of CHAZ/CHOP, on a Facebook Live stream, saying “we are the police now?” Many similar incidents. https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-warlord-no-cop-co-op https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-w...
baggy_trough 6y ago
This is demonstrably false.
- jolux 6y ago
  Feel free to demonstrate it :)
  - baggy_trough 6y ago
    Certainly there has been far more violence from the left than from the right over the past few years as a read through any newspaper will indicate. I suppose I wouldn't classify most of it as paramilitary in nature though. I would describe antifa as an organized violent mob, at least.
    - jolux 6y ago
      "I've read a lot about it in a newspaper" is not a demonstration. Here, I'll give you some evidence for my position: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-gro...
      - baggy_trough 6y ago
        You honestly dispute the claim that the large majority of political violence in the United States over the past year was leftist in origin?
sfg 6y ago
> Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it.
- solarhoma 6y ago
  It’s amazing. The top reply to his post does just this.
  - jolux 6y ago
    I care more about what is true than I care about trying to provide false balance between unequal positions. If you see me as missing the message, so be it. A request to treat "both sides" of this situation as equals is a request to ignore reality, which I refuse to do.
    - solarhoma 6y ago
      You are, again, simply speaking of your own reality. Simply because you hold an idea to be true does not make that idea true. This is not mathematics. You cannot ‘prove‘ one side to be true. This applies to my side as well as yours.
mistrial9 6y ago
I believe there is a mentally-ill man down the hall that thinks he is Antifa, and definitely plans violence all the time, but he is too weak and unstable to do it in reality.. perhaps a powerful image for his weak and unstable mind to fixate on.. does this equate to a real threat? hard to say, he lives largely in a fantasy world and has few contacts with people.. Its no secret that the mentally ill, badly damaged and socially disadvantaged have historially flocked to extreme campaigns -> on either side <- of this inflamed debate Peace as espoused by various religions, becomes a powerful antidote as a social message -- I support that messege, personally
- jolux 6y ago
  It's not primarily mentally ill people who call themselves antifascists or Proud Boys though, and believing that is going to severely hamper your analysis of them.
throwthrowawyy 6y ago
Man accused of hatching plot to kidnap Whitmer is BLM supporter and made comments critical of police >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-is-blm-supporter-and-made-comments-critical-of-police/ar-BB19UUXD https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-pl... In the age of agent provocateurs[0], it is hard to really know the truth even if you are present at the scene. There is only so much time in a day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
- jolux 6y ago
  https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-image/looking-ideologies-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-suspect/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-imag... >There’s no evidence that the suspects arrested in connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are antifa activists. >Before his arrest, one of the suspects attended a Black Lives Matter protest. Another suspect criticized the movement. >State and federal documents make no mention of antifa or Black Lives Matter. Rather, they reference an anti-government militia group. >Michigan’s attorney general has said white supremacist and anti-government groups acted “in concert based on a shared extreme ideology.”
jhallenworld 6y ago
What should the left do about the looting? Police confronting protesters in the front, looting going on in the rear.. (Here is a reminder video:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY I am all for BLM protests in general, but the looting only provokes more extreme responses from the right. I also blame the police- they rather confront peaceful protesters than go after actual thugs. Having a class of people redlined into ghettos who have no stake in the wealthier parts of society is the root of this, but what to do about it?
jimbob45 6y ago
I’m not sure why you’re ignoring BLM. They’re the biggest terrorist organization of the last year, organizing riots and orchestrating widespread looting. How can you call the left peaceable after that?
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
>Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. They're not [1][2]? [1] -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/weareallhizbullahnowreall https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/wearea... [2] -- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-finding...
deleted 6y ago
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dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. The last thing we need here is yet another angry, generic argument between left ideology and right ideology. Those are utterly repetitive, and therefore tedious, and therefore off topic on HN. That's not to say the issues aren't important; of course they are. But this site has a particular scope and repetitive flamewars aren't in it. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595. 40+ comments in a thread like this is beyond excessive.

watwut 6y ago

Who exactly is rational middle in your view? Who exactly is right wing side and who exactly is left wing side? Is democratic party along with Joe Biden really controlling violent antifa? Is antifa actually killing people and attempting kidnappings? Is democratic party really attacking elections the way president is now? The rational middle will be dwindling as long as they are always referred to in abstract without ever naming names.

didericis 6y ago
I can’t speak for the person you’re asking, but Tulsi Gabbard is representative of what I see as the rational middle.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  The only way you can see Tulsi as the "middle" is because the overton window has slammed so far right. In a rational society, Biden and Obama would be considered middle and AOC/Bernie left.
  - youareostriches 6y ago
    In most countries around the world, Sanders' policies are mainstream.
    - mrguyorama 6y ago
      That's not entirely true, Sanders often doesn't support gun control
  - cure 6y ago
    Yeah. Compared to the rest of the world, the entire left half of the political spectrum is more or less missing in the US. The democrats are a center right party. The republicans are at this point, a far right party. It has been a deliberate strategy of the far right to paint the center as "socialism" (which a lot of Americans seem to mistake for communism...), because it makes their ideology seem less extreme. A lot of Americans have fallen for that nonsense, unfortunately. Definitions and framing and perspective matters a lot.

na85 6y ago

>Both the left and the right [...] call basic and decent democratic norms into question (free speech, elections). I only see Republicans doing this, but I am not American so perhaps my perspective is not as acute as someone "on the inside". Can you link to instances of Democrats calling free speech and elections into question?

deleted 6y ago
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cal5k 6y ago
I suppose you missed the 3-year period where Trump was supposedly a Russian agent who stole the election? That's just the tenor of American politics right now in general.
- Delmania 6y ago
  No one made that claim except right wing media. They said, and this was proven, there was collusion among members of his campaign to influence the election.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  When the left complained that Trump became president while several million more people wanted his opponent to win, characterizing that as 'stealing the election' does not seem particularly unfair. And given the oddly pervasive connections between Trump's family and Russia, I can't really fault people for thinking there might very well be a connection. An awful lot of smoke, there is.
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    Honestly, the _incredibly_ numerous sexual assault complaints against him should have disqualified him at the start, especially when combined with his publicly indecent behaviour.
    - paulnechifor 6y ago

goat_whisperer 6y ago

Ah, yes. There were very fine people on both sides!

vincentmarle 6y ago

There is no “antifa”, everyone in the US should be antifascist.

claydavisss 6y ago
"antifa" as a label only exists to make Bakunin-style Marxists unassailable. I hope you didn't fall for it.
boieruai 6y ago
...being antifascist ... by adopting brownshirt tactics.

lisper 6y ago

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things are key. Once you subscribe to the idea that whatever the Dear Leader says is true, evidence be damned, you are lost. The right is doing this even as I write this. The left never has.

commandlinefan 6y ago
> does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections You may not be old enough to remember, but Al Gore (democrat) did _exactly_ this 20 years ago.
- SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
  Al Gore gave a decent concession speech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5YdkYSyEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5YdkYSyEE I didn't recall the date though, I checked and it was on December 13th, 2000. Come back on 14 December 2020 and tell me if that aspect is "exactly this". because the narrow vote count margin aspect that time really isn't, and the claims of fraud and rigging this time really isn't. And neither bode well for a hypothetical Trump concession speech.
- youareostriches 6y ago
  Al Gore never claimed that he was the only legitimate winner months before the election began and that any result in which he lost would be fraudulent.
- glitcher 6y ago
  It's quite the revisionist stretch to claim "exactly". There were many very different circumstances.
  - glitcher 6y ago

Delmania 6y ago

>Hate to break it to you, in the United States we're screwed two ways over. Both the left and the >right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). Both the left and the right in the US have >enemies lists, and have effective propaganda wings that eviscerate opponents and call basic and >decent democratic norms into question (free speech, elections). Both sides use identity and >demographics to sow division and resentment between groups. bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe!!!!!111 No, they're not. And I know I'll get downvoted for this. Trying to equate the Proud Boys, which is definite example of an organized right wing paramilitary group with antifa which is a loosely defined movement is a false equivalency. The "left" is not trying question voting. Rather, we've tried to make voting more accessible to all and ensure all votes are counted. Eviscerating free speech? Is that the made up "cancel culture"? You mean driving hateful and intolerant messages off social media? Alex Jones et. al made have been deplatformed, but as far as I know, he still has a media presence on Fox News, OAN, etc. Identity politics? You mean BLM? Or maybe the desire to make it so our politicians are more diverse as opposed to overwhelming represent a single demographic? Both side are the same, calls for centrism, etc. are nothing more than an attempt to absolve oneself of your responsibility to stay informed and be active in civic life. It's an attempt to excuse yourself from voting, etc. No, both sides are demonstrably not the same.

rootusrootus 6y ago

The moment you decide that everyone else is crazy and you are the rational guy in the middle, it's time to take a step back.

war1025 6y ago

You made the mistake of questioning the purity of the "Left". It angers the hive-mind.

jascii 6y ago

"Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys)." I'm not sure I would consider Antifa "paramilitary". Antifa doesn't have a military style chain of command, nor an organized use of firearms. While the proud boys have more of a hierarchical command structure, it's still a bit of a stretch to call them "paramilitary", there does however seem to be some shared membership with right wing paramilitary militia.

youareostriches 6y ago

This is both-sidesism, which is an intellectually lazy excuse to avoid taking action while appearing morally above the fray. Trump literally uses cult-like techniques to control his followers, traffics in conspiracy theories, attacks as "fake" any news media which doesn't praise him effusively, and is actively undermining democracy itself by claiming that any votes against him are illegitimate. There is no vaguely liberal or left politician in US history who has done what Trump has.

pontus 6y ago

I broadly agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's fair at this point to equate what's going on on the left to what's going on on the right. They are leagues apart. That's not to say that the same thing couldn't happen on the left or that the people on the left in some way are superior. Quite the opposite. I think the people on the left are just as susceptible to the type of effects happening on the right. I often wonder what would have happened if Trump had run as a democrat in 2016 instead talking about being pro-choice and how we need to get medicare for all etc. If he had run against someone like Ted Cruz, I would not be surprised if a lot of the left (myself included) had voted for Trump and excused all his talk as "locker room talk" or "speaking his mind" just like the right ultimately did. It may be nothing more than an accident that the right was the side that "fell victim" to his antics. This brings me to a serious worry of mine. A lot of people are talking about how Trump is too incompetent to successfully install himself as a dictator, but that the next person may be much more competent. These "warnings" are directed toward the right. However, there's nothing that prevents the next dictator wanna-be from being on the left, and the left needs to be equally vigilant.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
The left had something similar in 2016, in Bernie Sanders. The differences were that he didn't have the locker room talk (that I know of), and he didn't have the dictatorial tendencies (that I know of). But he was an insurgent from outside the party (he wasn't a Democrat, though he may have joined the party in 2016 for his run). In the same way, Trump wasn't really a Republican. (He did join the party, but somewhat recently.) Yes, I realize that this is degenerating into No True Scotsman, but both were outsiders who tried to hijack the parties. Trump succeeded, Bernie failed because the Democratic Party manipulated things and the Republican Party let things happen. The groundwork has been laid, on both sides. And the Democrats got raked over the coals for tilting the scales against Bernie, so they might not do it next time.
- krapp 6y ago
  To be fair, the Republican Party only let things happen after they tried really hard to get rid of Trump themselves.

pcj-github 6y ago

It is disheartening that a person such as yourself (looked at your bio) would draw these false equivalences between radicalism on the right and left. Four years ago these concepts would not have even remotely been part of your vocabulary, but now you sort of lay down and accept it as "we're screwed two ways over?" This is exactly the kind of psychological creep eluded to in the article.

coliveira 6y ago

"Great people on both sides", that's the rally chant of the US president...

boieruai 6y ago
"And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people."
paulnechifor 6y ago
That's intentionally taken out of context. He specifically said that nazis and racists are not included and that they should be condemned.

csomar 6y ago

> Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). They are both irrelevant comparing to the US military. Germany, when Hitler rose to power, had a bad economy and weak military but I think he did give up to the military choices at the end of the day. The US military is a behemoth who could decimate the left and right paramilitaries in a few days, and then go to invade Argentina. Having lived in a region where countries changed regimes from dictatorship to democracy to dictatorship multiple times, it seems that there is one similarity: The military has the final shot; and a weak or no military meant chaos (Libya/Yemen/Lebanon) since every paramilitary now has a shot at power. It'll be much easier to predict the outcome by knowing the US military. Does it support Republican or Democrat values? Does it care for democracy? Is it fed up with current day politics?

_iyig 6y ago
In my personal experience, the U.S. military - Army in particular - firmly drills “loyalty to the Constitution, not the President” into every soldier. The top U.S. general gave a speech to that effect earlier this week. You can draw your own conclusions as to the timing of his remarks: >” We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price," Milley said during remarks at the opening of the US Army's museum. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/12/politics/mark-milley-pentagon-turmoil/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/12/politics/mark-milley-pentagon...

rubiquity 6y ago

This is a terrible opinion dressed up in nice writing and this approach is usually used as a tactic by far right conspiracy theorists to recruit people in doubt to their side. The left/liberal/progressive side is not nearly as offensive, manipulative, or fascist as the right/conservatives even in the most extreme cases, and saying so is harmful.

hinkley 6y ago

Just watched The Sound of Music again a few weeks ago. As a kid I just knew the bad guys come and the heroes outsmart them. These days, I see more and more the acting chops of Christopher Plummer - the bad guys are already here and all that's left is hope and trying to maintain a bubble for your children. From scene one he is a goose on a pond. Serene above the waterline but roiling below.

triangleman 6y ago
Ironically did you ever notice that The Sound of Music is actually sympathetic towards fascism under the surface? http://www.critical-theory.com/watch-zizek-explain-why-the-sound-of-music-is-fucked/ http://www.critical-theory.com/watch-zizek-explain-why-the-s...

SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago

> Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys). If you believe this, you are severely misinformed; if you don't believe this, you are a liar. Either way, it is nefarious. I've been to every single counter-protest of the proud boys in Portland. Who brings guns? Proud boys, 3%ers, PatPrayer, and Trump supporters. Who doesn't bring guns? Counter protestors. Who gets arrested from bringing guns to a protest? No one. Who protects the proud boys? The police. Who gets shot at by police? Counter protestors. I had a gun pointed at me by a Proud Boy amongst his militia several months ago. I've been bear-sprayed but thugs with ARs strapped to their bloated bellies. Don't for one instant try to pull this "both sides have mililitias" bullshit. It is so clearly right-wing propaganda. P.S. And I know what you are about to say next, "But a Trump supporter got shot in portland..." YEs, he did, and it was awful, and then the Feds shot the perp w/o due process, while Rittenhouse gets a pat on the back. There were NOT heavily-armed groups of counter protestors on the left, but there sure as hell are from the right, all the time.

setpatchaddress 6y ago

"antifa" isn't paramilitary or any other sort of group. It's a contraction of "anti-fascist" and is simply a tenet that many people hold. "Proud Boys" are an organized domestic terrorist group, not a label for a set of beliefs. There was real, violent, semi-organized left-wing radicalism in the USA in the 1970's. Not since. It may return! But it hasn't yet. You might want to be more skeptical of the media you're consuming that led you to believe this. Or the persons you've been talking to.

bmmayer1 6y ago

Looks like I accidentally started a flame war here! Funtimes. My answer to some common replies: 1) "But the [left/right] is much worse": you're sorta making my point. Even if the other "side" may be worse now, if you're honest with yourself, I'm sure you can see where your partisans have crossed some lines, too. And the whole point of this piece is authoritarianism and fascism grows slowly over time, so "We're slightly further down the fascism hill right now so we're better" isn't a heartening response 2) "This is 'Both sidesism'!!!" First of all, I don't claim there are good people on both sides, I claim there are bad people on both sides. Very bad, sycophantic people who see the worst in others, assume the worst motives, and are willing to stop at nothing, including murder, to achieve their ends. Yes, for many issues there is a "right" and a "wrong" and these could theoretically be discovered through empirical testing and observation. But we're not talking about individual issues here, we're talking about national / political identities and the complex social and tribal bonds that make people even choose "a side" in the first place. 3) "You have to speak out / choose a side, or are you morally complicit in evil" Don't entirely disagree. That said, extremism is polarizing and destructive of rationality and humane discourse, regardless of where it comes from. Just because we are all sort of forced to "pick a side" when the gravitational forces are so strong, that doesn't mean that the side we pick will be right all the time or even a force for moral good, just a temporary stopgap against moral evil. That doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility to identify evil and speak against it when you see it. It's just a lot harder for those people who see much evil amongst two large constituencies that see themselves as wholly Good, than it is for those people who are wholly convinced of their Good and the absolute Evil of the other side. And although I don't claim to be either rational or in the middle, I do believe I am right about the creeping fascist tendencies present in the polar extremes of American politics -- and there's no better evidence of the truth of my comment that it is being downvoted and commented into oblivion by partisans on both sides :)

dang 6y ago
Please neither start nor perpetuate political flamewars on HN. We don't need fiery arguments about endlessly repeated details that are available everywhere else. We need thoughtful, curious conversation on non-obvious topics of intellectual interest. Political interest may intersect with intellectual interest but the two are not the same, and they become disjoint as passions rise. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

andrewclunn 6y ago

When the right goes fascist, they state as much. When the left does it, they claim it's to fight fascism. I know right wing fascists. They know exactly what they are, and will openly defend it as "necessary evil." One need only read comments on censorious sites (like this one) to see that the left wing will silence their enemies and call it freedom, strike their adversaries and call it self defense, convict on hearsay and call it justice. A man who willingly turns himself into a monster because he believes he must is a scary thing, but will hardly become a full on movement. For that, the monsters must believe they are not such. This is why the left are the real fascist threat, but the feigned pseudo intellectual zeitgeist of this place will never see such a truth.

confidantlake 6y ago

This BOTHSIDES!!!! argument is such disingenuous nonsense. There is no leftwing fascism in the US. Hillary Clinton conceded quickly after in a much closer election. She did not spout lies about widespread fraud and refuse to concede.