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What we poor souls didn't understand all these years is that we're effectively helping other companies to steal from Apple by running software that isn't distri

• andy_threos_io 6y ago
  Real Hacker who has concern about her/his privacy wouldn't touch this kind of product with a 10 foot pole!
  • 6510 6y ago
    As a wise man once said: "haha, pwnd!"
  • Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    And yet, Apple still has a reputation of being really privacy- and security- conscious. Windows' telemetry has had all the alarms raised for years now, and how does e.g. Canonical earn money? Same on mobile, Android phones - especially in the cheaper ranges - are dodgy as fuck when it comes to privacy and security.
    • ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Does Apple really have literally all telemetry disabled by default, out of the box, on all devices? Is there an independent audit proving that? If so, I would buy all their products in an instant. Then how do they know what to fix/improve without that? I can't imagine average iOS/OSX users, who aren't devs, are writing and submitting detailed bug/crash reports on a regular basis. Or is it just bias and personal preference where "I don't mind Apple collecting my telemetry because I like Apple but Microsoft collecting my telemetry is evil because I hate Microsoft"? I don't have a dog in this fight but don't trust any for-profit company when it comes to privacy, no matter how good their PR is on the matter, especially since both of them(and most SV companies) were part of the NSA Prism bulk collection program[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
      • a_c_s 6y ago
        Apple gives you the option to turn telemetry on/off as part of the machine setup & OS upgrade process. This option is explained in simple english and not buried in the legalese.
        • ChuckNorris89 6y ago
          The question is, is the telemetry really off completely on mac or either? Is there any guarantee that Apple gets zero bytes of your data or do we just take their word for it because their products are shiny and cool?
          • zepto 6y ago
            Those questions apply to literally every computer. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5706 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5706
      • yencabulator 6y ago
        No hacker would trust Apple, or an independent audit, to make such a claim anyway.
  • megous 6y ago
    Real hackers don't need secure boot and code signing either. :) Real hackers have backups, plan for failure, and are not afraid of consequences.
• zanny 6y ago
  Good thing said hacker culture spent 15 years buying inflated laptops and desktops from them ultimately for convenience to give them the market presence to do this in the first place. Its the same thing with Windows. People will preach all day that they won't make any personal sacrifices to try to avoid feeding literal cancers that are eating the software industry and are shocked when said all consuming voids take away their autonomy but they are so locked in to their ecosystems they are trapped. These are for profit corporations, not your friends. Their bottom line dictates they maximally abuse copyright and their ability to sell and distribute proprietary software out of your control to maximum effect. Microsoft, Google, et al want you using devices you cannot control, because then they hold all the keys and can demand the greatest ransoms for you to do what you want. Its inevitable, and the persistent total arrogance and hubris on display in the tech hive mind in regards to any of these walled gardens is just... depressing. Free software isn't going anywhere, especially with RISC-V now being an established failsafe if UEFI PC and ARM totally lock down, but it would just make the struggle a lot easier if the principle victims would stop martyring themselves for the corporate ecosystems they have no say, influence, or control over.
  • emptysongglass 6y ago
    What's worse is the number of other posts with the top comments being vociferous defenses of these companies as if they needed these people to defend them or cared one iota for their welfare. It feels like it's Stockholm Syndrome on a mass scale. I worry for Gen Z because they're tiny-mobile-device native. And the only usable tiny mobile devices are walled gardens. They scream outrage when they're not allowed their tiny little dance-jig operators provided courtesy of an abusive regime. Sure, I reflect that I may be now nearing the curve of an obsolescent person attached to such silly outmoded principles like "ethics" but if we're all just selling ourselves out constantly to the angry god-machine of the id, is this really the future we want for our daughters and sons?
    • pdkl95 6y ago
      > I worry for Gen Z because they're tiny-mobile-device native. And the only usable tiny mobile devices are walled gardens. Without the ability to grow up playing with system level software, combined with the software industry's unwillingness to pass on institutional knowledge to younger generations, I fear we are already on a path towards a civilization that loses a lot of the technological capability we currently enjoy. I recommend Jonathan Blow's talk "Preventing the Collapse of Civilization"[1] for an unsettling view of how far we have already traveled down that path. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko
• eecc 6y ago
  But also Windows phones home.m and Linux desktop is still a shitshow (pardon the French) arguing over and over again about the same melange of disputes that should have been settled a decade ago... Not sure if it’s a sign of aging, but I’m losing hope and interest in most of these pantomimes /s
  • BLKNSLVR 6y ago
    Linux desktop. I just use what's presented and get on with my work. I don't have a particularly complicated setup, but I found something that works and I've been using it happily enough for over a year having migrated from Windows. I don't know what disputes are being argued over, so I bothers me not in the slightest. Would it help if you just ignored the detail and just worked with what's presented?
    • zepto 6y ago
      If you are happy to just ‘work with what’s presented’, why not buy an Apple device or ChromeOS machine?
      • II2II 6y ago
        There are many reasons to choose Linux over the alternatives that have nothing to do with one's ability to customize it. One example is the simplicity of system management. Desktop oriented Linux distributions tend to take care of everything from application installation to updates with a single interface with minimal interruption to my work flow. This is only sometimes the case with macOS and Windows. Android, iOS, and ChromeOS are not realistic contenders in the application space for some users. Cost of ownership is another factor. Linux may not make sense for some businesses if they have to hire someone to manage their systems, but an end user who can handle often trivial tasks can usually support their own system and benefit from less downtime. While paying for software is a good thing, it frequently adds many constraints on what can be done while modern business models can make licenses prohibitively expensive (e.g. subscription models or various forms of forced obsolescence). Other reasons include: sometimes the desired software just works better under Linux since it was designed for Linux, a desire for privacy or a need to ensure confidentiality, compatibility with older hardware that is no longer supported by the vendor (but may be supported by open source developers). Working with what's presented simply means that you are unlikely to modify what is shipped by the vendor. You can still add to it or benefit in other areas.
• goatinaboat 6y ago
  it's becoming the antithesis of everything that the original Hacker culture stood for. A hacker in the “Hacker News” sense is more than likely working on an ad-supported web app and dreams of working at a FAANG. The old hacker dream is dead, sadly.
  • EliRivers 6y ago
    Long gone. The last time I had a conversation here about what a "hacker" is, there was a sizeable contingent who defined it as "someone who knows how to write computer programs". If that hacker ethic lives, it's not in people labelled "hackers" anymore.
    • eeZah7Ux 6y ago
      It's alive and kicking, but certainly not on "hacker" "news" or SV. See all the events like CCC and the fediverse.
      • rmoriz 6y ago
        I know so many CCC people who have trouble to make a living or are (un/happily) employed by companies that went all in Apple, Google, Mirosoft, AWS. Many for sure are brilliant brains but they lack to monetize it. To break or stop near-monopoly/walled garden systems you have to dismantle them through the market. Build better/cheaper (primary) alternatives which are free and open (secondary). IMHO mainstream only values convenience and price, freedom is only a "nice to have" item and when it requires more work it is a no-starter.
        • eeZah7Ux 6y ago
          > Many for sure are brilliant brains but they lack to monetize it. ...as if selling your brain was the most important thing in life. > you have to dismantle them through the market Citation needed. The large majority of modern technology was developed with public money.
  • BLKNSLVR 6y ago
• beardedscotsman 6y ago
  Microsoft tried this with Windows RT. It didn’t go down well at all. The slow burn might be what’s needed, but if they do this, it could damage why people still buy macs vs just buying iPads. Lets see, time will tell here.
  • jagged-chisel 6y ago
    I don't think Apple would object to everyone dropping Macs and buying just iPads.
    • jeegsy 6y ago
      They have had ads in the recent past to that effect
• tylerjwilk00 6y ago
  Like all subcultures when the hacker ethos went mainstream it's spirt died and all that was left was fashion. No one cares anymore if their consumer choices are a threat to freedom as long as they look cool. Outward appearances are now more important than principles. Prickly principles require sacrifice and why have character when you can have a disposable "personality".
  • BLKNSLVR 6y ago
    The hacker ethos didn't go mainstream. People who don't deserve the moniker started self applying it. I'm not a hacker, I'm a corporate shill because I work for my own profit within a system that's set up to ensure its own continuity. I'd like to be a hacker, but I have a family to support and am too weak or addicted to lifestyle or scared or realistically-minded to actually commit to what's required to earn the title of hacker. Same with anyone working towards advertising, marketing, consumer data collection. Doesn't matter how intelligently you solve a problem in those fields, ain't no starry eyed kids ever wanted to grow up to make the world a better place by more accurately identifying and individuals preferences on the internet. Fuck fake hackers. The best thing I've done with my life is being a good husband to a teacher.
    • bluntfang 6y ago
      amen. all these so-called hacker capitalists either starting a company or working corporate gigs forgot to read the hacker manifesto.
    • tylerjwilk00 6y ago
      I totally agree with you. The ethos went "mainstream" in the sense that it was fashionable to play the part and be in your words a "fake hacker". And for future historians and those unfamiliar with the jargon, hacker ethos isn't about criminally breaking into computer systems.
• cj 6y ago
  > people have to get used to seeing computers as closed-source devices with app stores Consider all of the school age kids using chromebooks, many of them their 1st computer. Will they care in 10 years as adults that their Mac doesn't allow programs to be installed from "untrusted sources"? Unfortunately, this transition probably won't phase them.
  • rmoriz 6y ago
    They won't be able to build a disruptive startup or a modest lifestyle business anymore without having to pay upfront and play by the rules of big tech. But nobody will be so they won't feel that something was taken away from them.
    • jeegsy 6y ago
      This actually describes my feelings about all this at the moment. I imagine that now and in the future, the 2 Steve scenario in the "garage" will be next to impossible
  • n0nc3 6y ago
    Ironically, Chromebooks are the "freest" hardware you can get. They all support full-featured coreboot, including measured boot and verified boot. https://www.coreboot.org/ https://www.coreboot.org/
• raxxorrax 6y ago
  I hate walled in gardens and in Microsoft land it did get a lot of flack which I am thankful for. I doubt many Apple users have the foresight of a Stallman to see where their environment is headed. There is money in creating apps for Apple systems, but you are giving up a lot in exchange. Some developers use it for convenience but I would not say it is widespread and most are fundamentally opposed to use a mac. Our advertising department is the only one with macs. Sadly, we still support Apple because every sales rep gets the whole suite. iPhones and iPad Pros (because the others are too small and you cannot work with them... what a new revelation...), that is a few thousand bucks for every employee that Apple gets. They even get the ridiculously priced pen (120$?) and keyboard (300$+). And our sales people still complain about not have notebooks, because they are superior devices. There is just the presentation argument.
  • christophilus 6y ago
    Probably 90% of developers I've worked with in the past 5 years used a Mac, and really wanted to do so. I know a handful that left Linux to do it, and have told me they can't imagine going back. I'm not sure that your'e right about developers. I do know that my next machine will be Linux. I'm probably going to put together a desktop for my office, and I'll buy a System76 laptop or whatever for those times when I want to work from the porch.
    • raxxorrax 6y ago
      Estimated 1-3% developers of developers I worked with run MacOS. Maybe it is a local or SV thing, but most I know prefer the freedom. In the industry I work there aren't many tools for Apple ecosystems available. edit: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/ https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/ It is quite high and to correct myself: Some developers have a Mac for iOS development. Most people I know hate it.
      • jonfw 6y ago
        IBM has nearly all of it's developers on Mac at this point. I came from using exclusively linux for 10+ years and have decided to switch my personal machine to a Mac and my phone to an iPhone because it's been so good. Mac has everything I liked about Linux but with zero cognitive overhead. With brew and a window manager (amethyst) I'm not missing any features I enjoyed in Linux.
• eternalban 6y ago
  "What we poor souls didn't understand all these years is that" computing and information processing started out as tactical and then strategic components of military, intelligence, and industry. The central computing infrastructure ("the Cloud") and attendant closed/dumb psuedo-terminals (closed systems, walled gardens) is precisely the vision outlined in the 60s if not the 50s. Two unexpected events in information processing technology threw monkey wrenches in the industrial and geopolitical policies of the strategic thinkers dreaming in DARPA, SRI, and elsewhere: 1 - Personal Computing was an unexpected event. It has taken all of 4 decades to put that genie back in the bottle. The topic of this thread. 2 - AI. This mainly threw a big wrench in the planned integration of Communist China into the Western system. AI enabled CCP to maintain control of the Chinese society, which was completely unexpected. Having advanced general purpose, user programmable, computing machines networked globally in the hands of peasants is simply unacceptable to the folks who gifted humanity with these tools.
  • drdec 6y ago
    > 2 - AI. This mainly threw a big wrench in the planned integration of Communist China into the Western system. AI enabled CCP to maintain control of the Chinese society, which was completely unexpected. Could you expand on this or better yet, point to some reading on the subject? This sounds like a very interesting topic.
    • eternalban 6y ago
      Pure speculation on my part, trying to understand the nature of the relationship between Communist Party of China and Western power centers. Back in the early 70s, when the deal that Kissinger and Mao shook hands on was made, there were no PCs, or pervasive networking and mobile communication and computing. It was always my speculation that the risky gambit of fast forwarding China's development and economy and freely transfering crown jewels of technology was made with the conviction that the process of integrating with the West would naturally create a power base in Chinese society that would push aside the Communist Party. Tiananmen ("June Fourth Incident") was a manifestation of this correct original prognosis of the planners of the deal, that it would cause political headaches for the CCP. A cultural instead of a kinetic overcoming by the West. I think the consensus now in the West is that CCP armed with AI, pervasive networking, and the emergence of a digital society in the true sense, can stifle any possible organic formation of alternative poles of power in Chinese society. The only remining challenge to CCP were the Tech Mandarins (like the Senior Self Crowned Bozo in the West, a certain Bill Gates) and just this week Jack Ma was reminded as to who is in charge in New China. And of course, Eric Schmidt et al. are now salivating at the "Chinese Model" and we're gonna get the same, regardless of what little you and little me thinks about it. /end speculation
• ajuc 6y ago
  Fortunately Apple has like 3% market share in the desktop market globally[1] , so it doesn't really matter what they do. [1] browsing data shows around 10% market share but it is based mostly on English websites which are minority (and English-speaking countries have significantly higher apple users percentage than the rest of the world).
  • bobthepanda 6y ago
    Even English speaking countries don’t have that high Macbook usage, because the premium sticker price is extremely high; unlike in phones, where an iPhone is comparable or in some cases less expensive than equivalent Android flagships, Macs tend to be several hundred dollars more than even their flagship laptop or PC counterparts, and from my personal experience a computer running Win10 is not that flaky compared to some Androids I’ve used.
• pjmlp 6y ago
  The PC world only happened due to singularity point that IBM was unable to prevent, even though they tried it. Everyone else was vertically integrated, if anything Apple is the survivor of those kind of systems, and now everyone (OEMs) else wants that model back.
• bgilroy26 6y ago
  There is always a war on when property is not democratized. In the Anglophone world, the easiest example to think of is enclosure[1] which was a war between the mercantile class on one side and the lazier half of the lords and the little people on the other. If any company, be they Google, be they Apple, should experience total "victory" in the war on intellectual property they would find everyone who is not * An investor * In management * An employee * A temp/contractor, or * A happy customer Set against them and they would fall. Imagine there was a neural network or network of neural networks that could arrange bits into entertaining movies. It would print money and it would not be strategic for whatever company had the resources to do that to hoard the benefits, they would have no customers if they did (I suppose if they had enough compute and memory resources to succeed in such a task they might already have a monopoly on money). I used to understand the CEO's job as cheerleader, for the investors, for the employees. I still think that is how they operate tactically, but strategically, I think the goal of a CEO in a Obama-era neo-liberal is to put the whole world in one of those categories above I suppose, with the acceptable additions of * Vendor/supplier * Companies in partnership * Competitors who participate in a trade association together in a reasonably civil manner, or * Members of government who are lobbied to advocate for your firm or industry or a strategic need that you hold in common with the broader public In the long run the alternative is to perish. Utopia I think may have been inevitable by the 50s/60s when people started to believe that some companies really would last forever. On a long enough time scale, it is best to do everything in everyone's best interest considered in toto. So all of that to say that I expect one day, maybe 40 years from now, maybe 80, that IP as it operates today will be transformed into an index of ideas that everyone can take and implement who might put them to use beneficially for the citizenry and other residents. It will be nice after all of that work to have a primary key for the ideas that have been created so far, so I don't think we the people will burn down the USPTO or the LOC or anything like that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts