12 ms·

Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

195 points by thg 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jaywalk 6y ago
While I admire the creativity of Apple's legal team to attempt to frame this as theft, I'm glad it was dismissed outright because it's beyond absurd.
- storkhill 6y ago
  Honestly, I think Apple's in the right here. Every developer agrees to the App Store rules before releasing their applications. Apple created guidelines for their developers and they're simply taking advantage of that in court. Not saying I agree with it, but it doesn't go without reason.
  - senko 6y ago
    As the judge said, that is a contract breach, which is handled by different lawsuit. In this lawsuit Apple argued it's theft, which is nonsense, and so the judge told them to go stuff it.
    - storkhill 6y ago
      Ah okay. I apologize, I didn't catch that the first time.
    - intricatedetail 6y ago
      They should charge Apple for wasting courts time. Imagine someone had legitimate case but had to wait for their turn as Apple clogged the court. Utterly disgusting.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        This is why court fees exist, there’s always a losing side so almost any case could be interpreted as the losing side “wasting the court’s time”.
        intricatedetail 6y ago
        Apple has virtually unlimited money, so fees are irrelevant.
  - felipellrocha 6y ago
    Same. I don’t like Apple’s overreach in the industry, over all, but their apple store service is great, and they should be paid for it. Don’t wanna pay? Don’t go to the store.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      That doesn't mean this is "theft" though. Even if Apple ultimately is found to not be a monopoly, this particular action would be a simple contract breach. Not theft.
    - JohnJamesRambo 6y ago
      Don’t wanna use Standard Oil, don’t use oil. See how that works?
    - pixl97 6y ago
      >Don’t wanna pay? Don’t go to the store. Is this supposed to be an ironic comment? Because if it is not, I'm concerned for your knowledge about the situation.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      The counter argument is that Apple has structured the deal so that you can't avoid the store. Additionally if you're in the store, Apple forbids you from advertising cheaper alternatives to in-app purchases. So basically if you want to sell on Apple, you must give Apple a 30% of all sales on the platform AND you're not allowed to tell users they can purchase your wares via alternatives.
    - horsawlarway 6y ago
      I've said this before in previous discussions of this case - I don't think anyone is arguing that Apple shouldn't have the right to charge companies that take advantage of the products and services that they've built in their store I think that problem is that Apple is arbitrarily denying the ability for any other company to provide a competing product. How can you honestly evaluate the value proposition of Apple's "great" store, if they've killed all the competition? You can't. Which is the whole damn point, because Epic HAS a store that I'm sure they'd love to release on iOS but Apple prohibits it. Basically - Apple is the bully who's now crying foul when the competition is actually trying to enter the game. From a monetary standpoint, I understand why Apple is doing this. As a developer and distributor of software (my day job), I cannot express clearly enough how much I'd like to see Apple lose this case. As far as I'm concerned, they can fuck right off. I'm firmly in the "Handle it like MS and IE" camp - I want a court ruling that not only prohibits Apple from stopping competition in their store space, I want a MANDATORY popup on first use that asks the user which store they'd like to use.
  - mdorazio 6y ago
    That's not really the core of the argument here. Epic is arguing that Apple's terms themselves (taking a cut of the revenue that's a direct result of Epic's team's efforts with zero options to do anything else) are not fair and should be unenforceable given its market position. Basically, breach of contract is only a valid legal basis when the contract itself is deemed legally acceptable. Ex. you can't force someone to sign a ridiculous contract at gunpoint and then sue them for breach later. Where you come down on this issue should really be based on whether you think a marketplace cut of revenue with extremely onerous conditions that prevent even minor bypasses should be legal or not when distribution on said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market in the sector (mobile gaming in this case). Whether or not someone previously agreed to the terms is not the issue.
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > Where you come down on this issue should really be based on whether you think a marketplace cut of revenue with extremely onerous conditions that prevent even minor bypasses should be legal or not when distribution on said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market in the sector This is a court case. Not a legislative session. Where you come down on it should be based on the law. I believe the law should be changed. But based on existing law, it is difficult to find for Epic. Epic's strategy is, in effect, a high-risk lobbying endeavor.
      - warent 6y ago
        Courts can and do make new laws and undo laws all the time. Whether or not they should is another matter entirely, but it is well within the court's power to reinterpret laws quite liberally.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        > Where you come down on it should be based on the law. The comment that you responded to included facts that would support the idea that Apple's behavior is against the current law. When they said that " said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market" This is a reason as for why Apple is breaking the law. It is an argument that Apple has significant market power, and is engaging in anti-competitive actions, which is illegal.
- rndgermandude 6y ago
  Right. Theft would require Apple had something (like money) already in their possession and Epic took it from them. This isn't what happened here regardless of the stipulations in the contracts between those two parties.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  There should be a Nobel Prize for lawyers- awarded for the most ridiculous tortured or absurd legal arguments made with a straight face - maybe name it the Cochran prize in honor of the Chewbacca defense.
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    I nominate some of these Judges presiding over the election ballot lawsuits. Some amazing drypan court humor.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      The judges!?
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    I once read about a lawyer who argued that a person's name could not be used in court because they first heard their own name from someone else, thus it was hearsay. I'm probably butchering the hilarious story, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd hugely appreciate a name I can look up or more info on it.
    - aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago
      Maybe you’re thinking of the frivolous legal tactic of sovereign citizens to assert that when their name appears in all caps in court documents, it does not refer to themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_theory
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    IANAL but isn't this prize (in the extreme) called disbarment?
    - lawtalkinghuman 6y ago
      That's reserved for the only true mortal sin in legal practice - fucking around with client money.
thehappypm 6y ago
I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic wins this one -- not only did they agree to the contract, the contract isn't particularly outrageous, in my mind. Compare it to something like a movie theater. The movie theater gets almost no box-office revenue. Apple lets you keep most of it.
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  You said you side with Apple, but why? Better analogy is that Apple is a country with a single party, no elections, that dictates who can make money and how much tax they pay. These ecosystems need regulation to enable multiple stores and open APIs.
  - cassteri 6y ago
    Except Apple isn’t a country, it’s a company, so this analogy is useless.
    - intricatedetail 6y ago
      Do you know what is an analogy at all?
      - cassteri 6y ago
        Yea, do you?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - joenathanone 6y ago
      That is the very purpose of an analogy, to compare two unalike things.
zigzag312 6y ago
I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party developers, a virtual ecosystem has grown. Today, true value is in this whole ecosystem. And that is the point. Third party developers combined have probably contributed more man-hours/resources than Apple alone to increase the value of this ecosystem. Why should Apple have a total control of this ecosystem when they created only a part of it? Take away the apps/services not created by Apple and the value of the platform drops considerably. Whole market is in a big catch 22 position. It is nearly impossible to compete and create a new smartphone platform, because even if a new player creates superior products compared to Apple, they don't have all the apps. They can't create the whole ecosystem by themselves, as the costs would be insane. Software developers also don't have much choice. There are two platforms that control all the market share. They have to accept the rules given to them or leave the industry (one they helped create). Saying things like that every developer agrees to the App Store rules before releasing their applications is a major oversimplification of a complex situation. Apple can change the rules and they might not be the same at the time when developer makes an major investment to develop an app and when they release it. And rules might change again after they release it. Apple did not create this whole virtual ecosystem, just the platform on which it is build upon. And this ecosystem has outgrown Apple. It's got so big, that Apple's contribution is only a part of it. Apple has been generously repaid for their efforts, and will continue to be so in the future. But maybe they shouldn't have a complete control over a virtual ecosystem this big, where their investments no longer represent the majority of it's value.
- m00x 6y ago
  I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the hardware that YOU paid for. You're essentially getting milked from both sides which is terrific for Apple, awful for the consumer.
harrisonjackson 6y ago
If I understand correctly the "theft" was for the funds epic received from customers after adding their own payment system to the Fortnite app against Apple's TOS. But didn't Epic discount the subscription and pass most of those savings back to the customer? So maybe Apple should really be going after the savings all of those customers have.... /s
lukasfischer 6y ago
Would you agree on a 10% App Store fee? Or 15%? Or 5%?
- kevincox 6y ago
  In my mind the problem isn't the fee. It is that Apple decides what you can run on your hardware. They could charge 80% as far as I am concerned as long as there was the possibilities to get apps another way (and ideally run alternate stores). Of course this is my opinion and a major reason that I am not an Apple customer.

195 points by thg 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

While I admire the creativity of Apple's legal team to attempt to frame this as theft, I'm glad it was dismissed outright because it's beyond absurd.

storkhill 6y ago
Honestly, I think Apple's in the right here. Every developer agrees to the App Store rules before releasing their applications. Apple created guidelines for their developers and they're simply taking advantage of that in court. Not saying I agree with it, but it doesn't go without reason.
- senko 6y ago
  As the judge said, that is a contract breach, which is handled by different lawsuit. In this lawsuit Apple argued it's theft, which is nonsense, and so the judge told them to go stuff it.
  - storkhill 6y ago
    Ah okay. I apologize, I didn't catch that the first time.
  - intricatedetail 6y ago
    They should charge Apple for wasting courts time. Imagine someone had legitimate case but had to wait for their turn as Apple clogged the court. Utterly disgusting.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      This is why court fees exist, there’s always a losing side so almost any case could be interpreted as the losing side “wasting the court’s time”.
      - intricatedetail 6y ago
        Apple has virtually unlimited money, so fees are irrelevant.
- felipellrocha 6y ago
  Same. I don’t like Apple’s overreach in the industry, over all, but their apple store service is great, and they should be paid for it. Don’t wanna pay? Don’t go to the store.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    That doesn't mean this is "theft" though. Even if Apple ultimately is found to not be a monopoly, this particular action would be a simple contract breach. Not theft.
  - JohnJamesRambo 6y ago
    Don’t wanna use Standard Oil, don’t use oil. See how that works?
  - pixl97 6y ago
    >Don’t wanna pay? Don’t go to the store. Is this supposed to be an ironic comment? Because if it is not, I'm concerned for your knowledge about the situation.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    The counter argument is that Apple has structured the deal so that you can't avoid the store. Additionally if you're in the store, Apple forbids you from advertising cheaper alternatives to in-app purchases. So basically if you want to sell on Apple, you must give Apple a 30% of all sales on the platform AND you're not allowed to tell users they can purchase your wares via alternatives.
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    I've said this before in previous discussions of this case - I don't think anyone is arguing that Apple shouldn't have the right to charge companies that take advantage of the products and services that they've built in their store I think that problem is that Apple is arbitrarily denying the ability for any other company to provide a competing product. How can you honestly evaluate the value proposition of Apple's "great" store, if they've killed all the competition? You can't. Which is the whole damn point, because Epic HAS a store that I'm sure they'd love to release on iOS but Apple prohibits it. Basically - Apple is the bully who's now crying foul when the competition is actually trying to enter the game. From a monetary standpoint, I understand why Apple is doing this. As a developer and distributor of software (my day job), I cannot express clearly enough how much I'd like to see Apple lose this case. As far as I'm concerned, they can fuck right off. I'm firmly in the "Handle it like MS and IE" camp - I want a court ruling that not only prohibits Apple from stopping competition in their store space, I want a MANDATORY popup on first use that asks the user which store they'd like to use.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  That's not really the core of the argument here. Epic is arguing that Apple's terms themselves (taking a cut of the revenue that's a direct result of Epic's team's efforts with zero options to do anything else) are not fair and should be unenforceable given its market position. Basically, breach of contract is only a valid legal basis when the contract itself is deemed legally acceptable. Ex. you can't force someone to sign a ridiculous contract at gunpoint and then sue them for breach later. Where you come down on this issue should really be based on whether you think a marketplace cut of revenue with extremely onerous conditions that prevent even minor bypasses should be legal or not when distribution on said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market in the sector (mobile gaming in this case). Whether or not someone previously agreed to the terms is not the issue.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > Where you come down on this issue should really be based on whether you think a marketplace cut of revenue with extremely onerous conditions that prevent even minor bypasses should be legal or not when distribution on said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market in the sector This is a court case. Not a legislative session. Where you come down on it should be based on the law. I believe the law should be changed. But based on existing law, it is difficult to find for Epic. Epic's strategy is, in effect, a high-risk lobbying endeavor.
    - warent 6y ago
      Courts can and do make new laws and undo laws all the time. Whether or not they should is another matter entirely, but it is well within the court's power to reinterpret laws quite liberally.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      > Where you come down on it should be based on the law. The comment that you responded to included facts that would support the idea that Apple's behavior is against the current law. When they said that " said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market" This is a reason as for why Apple is breaking the law. It is an argument that Apple has significant market power, and is engaging in anti-competitive actions, which is illegal.
rndgermandude 6y ago
Right. Theft would require Apple had something (like money) already in their possession and Epic took it from them. This isn't what happened here regardless of the stipulations in the contracts between those two parties.
medium_burrito 6y ago
There should be a Nobel Prize for lawyers- awarded for the most ridiculous tortured or absurd legal arguments made with a straight face - maybe name it the Cochran prize in honor of the Chewbacca defense.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  I nominate some of these Judges presiding over the election ballot lawsuits. Some amazing drypan court humor.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    The judges!?
- silicon2401 6y ago
  I once read about a lawyer who argued that a person's name could not be used in court because they first heard their own name from someone else, thus it was hearsay. I'm probably butchering the hilarious story, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd hugely appreciate a name I can look up or more info on it.
  - aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago
    Maybe you’re thinking of the frivolous legal tactic of sovereign citizens to assert that when their name appears in all caps in court documents, it does not refer to themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_theory
- mhh__ 6y ago
  IANAL but isn't this prize (in the extreme) called disbarment?
  - lawtalkinghuman 6y ago
    That's reserved for the only true mortal sin in legal practice - fucking around with client money.

thehappypm 6y ago

I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic wins this one -- not only did they agree to the contract, the contract isn't particularly outrageous, in my mind. Compare it to something like a movie theater. The movie theater gets almost no box-office revenue. Apple lets you keep most of it.

intricatedetail 6y ago
You said you side with Apple, but why? Better analogy is that Apple is a country with a single party, no elections, that dictates who can make money and how much tax they pay. These ecosystems need regulation to enable multiple stores and open APIs.
- cassteri 6y ago
  Except Apple isn’t a country, it’s a company, so this analogy is useless.
  - intricatedetail 6y ago
    Do you know what is an analogy at all?
    - cassteri 6y ago
      Yea, do you?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - joenathanone 6y ago
    That is the very purpose of an analogy, to compare two unalike things.

zigzag312 6y ago

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party developers, a virtual ecosystem has grown. Today, true value is in this whole ecosystem. And that is the point. Third party developers combined have probably contributed more man-hours/resources than Apple alone to increase the value of this ecosystem. Why should Apple have a total control of this ecosystem when they created only a part of it? Take away the apps/services not created by Apple and the value of the platform drops considerably. Whole market is in a big catch 22 position. It is nearly impossible to compete and create a new smartphone platform, because even if a new player creates superior products compared to Apple, they don't have all the apps. They can't create the whole ecosystem by themselves, as the costs would be insane. Software developers also don't have much choice. There are two platforms that control all the market share. They have to accept the rules given to them or leave the industry (one they helped create). Saying things like that every developer agrees to the App Store rules before releasing their applications is a major oversimplification of a complex situation. Apple can change the rules and they might not be the same at the time when developer makes an major investment to develop an app and when they release it. And rules might change again after they release it. Apple did not create this whole virtual ecosystem, just the platform on which it is build upon. And this ecosystem has outgrown Apple. It's got so big, that Apple's contribution is only a part of it. Apple has been generously repaid for their efforts, and will continue to be so in the future. But maybe they shouldn't have a complete control over a virtual ecosystem this big, where their investments no longer represent the majority of it's value.

m00x 6y ago
I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the hardware that YOU paid for. You're essentially getting milked from both sides which is terrific for Apple, awful for the consumer.

harrisonjackson 6y ago

If I understand correctly the "theft" was for the funds epic received from customers after adding their own payment system to the Fortnite app against Apple's TOS. But didn't Epic discount the subscription and pass most of those savings back to the customer? So maybe Apple should really be going after the savings all of those customers have.... /s

lukasfischer 6y ago

Would you agree on a 10% App Store fee? Or 15%? Or 5%?

kevincox 6y ago
In my mind the problem isn't the fee. It is that Apple decides what you can run on your hardware. They could charge 80% as far as I am concerned as long as there was the possibilities to get apps another way (and ideally run alternate stores). Of course this is my opinion and a major reason that I am not an Apple customer.