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This part seems incorrect: > There are strict laws regulating police and poll workers while the polls are open. Police are not allowed within 100 feet of the p
by dx87 6y ago
This part seems incorrect:
> There are strict laws regulating police and poll workers while the polls are open. Police are not allowed within 100 feet of the polling location, unless they're actively voting or there on official business at the request of the election board. Additionally, anyone working at the polls in an official capacity is not allowed to wear any clothing with political messaging. One of the officers who showed up earlier in the day was wearing a hoodie with the American flag on it, and the US armed forces oath of enlistment printed in place of the white stripes. As they were leaving, I pulled the officer aside and asked him to remove the hoodie before making his next stop, politely explaining the law.
The linked PDF of rules says that the following isn't allowed:
> Wearing a t-shirt or button supporting a candidate, campaign, or political party (except voters in the act of voting)
The American flag with the military oath of enlistment isn't any of those. I'd probably get upset as well if some poll worker tried to tell me I'm not allowed to wear the American flag on my clothes.
- mindslight 6y ago"The American flag with the military oath of enlistment" is not "the American flag", but rather an attempt to make some kind of statement. At best it's political support of the military, at worst it's a possible dog whistle.
- Fellshard 6y agoA dog whistle for what? There's an awful lot of cagey presumption going on in every reiteration of this claim.
- AGSYS 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_Keepers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_Keepers
- Fellshard 6y agoThat is not what the Thin Blue Line represents.
- AGSYS 6y agoThat's probably what the "oath of enlistment" represents though.
- caseysoftware 6y agoNo, the "military oath of enlistment" is LITERALLY the oath of enlistment for the military. As in the US military. As in the oath that enlisted soliders/marines/sailors say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces_oath_of_enlistment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces_oat... Anything else or other associations are in your head, not reality.
- BrandonMarc 6y agoProbably, eh? Well then sure, let's have election workers make judgment calls based on "probably".
- Fellshard 6y agoWorked great for Pregnant Chad.
- no-dr-onboard 6y agoThat's quite the display of mental gymnastics.
- barumi 6y ago> A dog whistle for what? There's an awful lot of cagey presumption going on in every reiteration of this claim. I'm not a US citizen nor I ever set foot in the US, and even from afar the quasi-fanarical displays of support for the US armed forces is a hallmark of supporters of the Republican party.
- brink 6y agoAs an American, American politics genuinely feels like a game of dodge ball where each team captain takes turns picking virtues that the other side has to be against. The left picked immigration so the right has to hate immigration, the right picked the military so the left has to hate the military. It's like our politics have to be polar opposites on everything, and it's exhausting.
- vonseel 6y agoI get you. And plenty of Republicans support the military but did not support Bush's invasion of Iraq / false hunt for WMDs and agree on limiting the size of our military. This book had some great comments on military size and concomitant decline of power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Great_Powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Great...
- dx87 6y agoSo which of "candidate, campaign, or political party" is it? The Biden and Trump campaigns openly supported the military.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mindslight 6y agoIt's a "campaign" on its own, but possibly all of those depending on context. I don't know what that exact context is, but it's not on me or the poll workers to know every political meme going around. A bastardized American flag is not just an American flag as you've asserted, but rather an overt political statement.
- BrandonMarc 6y agoWait, a dog whistle? For what? Fellow soldiers that have dog tags?
- totalZero 6y agoIt's also possible that the officer in question purchased that hoodie because hoodies are warm and he likes its design, and that he happened to wear said hoodie on election day because it was cold. I don't really think it makes sense to speculate either way. The US military is not a partisan tool nor a domestic political estate, so that message is not overtly supportive of one candidate or the other.
- mmastrac 6y agoIt doesn't seem much different than a "thin blue line" flag. I'd feel the same way as Drew in this situation. If you want to wear a flag, wear a flag.
- dx87 6y agoA "thin blue line" flag also doesn't fit any of the banned criteria. You guys are basically saying that supporting police and military is only done by republicans.
- mmastrac 6y agoIt's a logo that is more strongly associated with one political party than another, being worn by someone who is presumably armed and in a position of authority. If you cannot see why this is a problem, I don't think I can explain it any more.
- kev009 6y agoSince it is less incendiary to discuss, what if someone was wearing a Rastafarian style hat in places marijuana bills were on the ballot, is this a conflict?
- CameronNemo 6y agoIf the colors/hat had become a signalling mechanism by the political movement and were being used to make a political statement, I would say wearing them would be in bad taste. Especially if a member of law enforcement or the military was doing it.
- KittenInABox 6y agoMore directly, if the Rastafarian style hat was a prominent display in several recent political rallies for a single party, I think it should be absolutely called into equal question.
- kettro 6y ago
- sk5t 6y ago> I'd probably get upset as well if some poll worker tried to tell me I'm not allowed to wear the American flag on my clothes The flag of the United States is not adulterated with text or anything else in place of its stripes, stars, and field.
- nemosaltat 6y agoI think you may be referencing the US flag code, which yes, has a handful of explicit and implicit prohibitions against wearing the flag on clothing.
- throwaway373438 6y agoWhenever discussing the US flag code it's important to mention that the statute is unconstitutional as determined in United States v. Eichman. What the flag code says about clothing is as irrelevant as any other hot take on the issue.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kube-system 6y agoI believe United States v. Eichman invalidated 18 U.S.C. § 700 -- which is the Flag Protection Act. The "Flag Code" normally refers to 4 U.S.C. § 1 -- which I don't think ever had any penalties for violation. It's simply advisory. The purpose is primarily to define the way the flag is used in an official capacity.
- sigstoat 6y agoi don’t think you need to reference much of anything but the flag itself to firmly establish that the flag doesn’t have text on it.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> The flag of the United States is not adulterated with text or anything else in place of its stripes, stars, and field. I could give you a billion examples where it is. Just do a Google image search.
- tych0 6y agoI was a poll worker in Denver, and the way it was explained to me was: you can't wear anything referencing stuff on the ballot. So for example you can wear a shirt that says "{Black|Blue} Lives Matter" because there's nothing about whose lives matter on the ballot. Same with a MAGA hat. But you can't wear a shirt that says "Vote no on 2A", or "Trump 2020", because those people/issues are on the ballot. Denver != Pennsylvania, obviously, but perhaps it's a federal law? I don't really know where the rule comes from. Anyway, overall takeaways working were: 1. everyone was super friendly and it was a great experience and 2. Denver+Colorado really have their shit together when it comes to elections. It's easy to vote, there's a paper trail for everything, and the default is by mail. Everyone should do it like we do.
- stouset 6y agoMAGA hats wouldn’t be allowed (in California) since they’re official campaign merchandise and part of that campaign’s branding. Source: am an SF election inspector. That said, it’s all up to the specifics of state law.
- listenallyall 6y agoJust curious, but how much is up to personal discretion? What if the hat was red and said "Make USA Great Again"? or simply "Make America Great"? These wouldn't be "official" merchandise, and to be honest, I have no idea how a random pollworker or inspector decides what is "official".
- stouset 6y agoIf a pollworker or election inspector deemed something to be electioneering, they would first let the person know and ask them to remedy the situation. 99% of cases are handled this way without incident. Of course, any citizen can do the same if a pollworker is unwilling to do so. In the event that the person refuses to cooperate, you can call the election center to get confirmation that they're electioneering and—if so—you can simply call the police and have them deal with it if it's egregious enough. Realistically, the situation you're asking about just doesn't happen often enough to be of concern. Most of the time, people aren't "trying" to electioneer. They're just excited about their candidate, and when told about the law and asked to take down a sign or remove a hat, they'll do so even if begrudgingly. The people who actually want to electioneer aren't shy about it and step way over the line. For anything in the middle, simply make a judgment call and go with it.
- ddevault 6y agoAuthor here. The military is a political entity, and different voters have different opinions on. It's better to err on the side of caution when acting in an official capacity for the election, especially when your organization (the police) are the subject of ballot measures this year. A tap on the shoulder and a polite comment seem well justified to me, and another poll worker agreed.
- brandmeyer 6y ago> The military is a political entity Veteran here, served during the contentious 2000 election. The US military very strongly prides itself on being an apolitical entity. There's an important distinction between the electorate having differing opinions about the role and size of the military and the scope of its missions, and the military itself being a political entity.
- ddevault 6y agoThis is not a universally held belief.
- giantg2 6y agoPerhaps those with a contrary belief should review the UMJC, which restricts political statements/actions for military members, even off duty.
- toyg 6y agoSadly those lines are increasingly blurry. Isn’t there an issue right now with the new Secretary of Defence, for example, who technically has not been out of Green Berets long enough to be appointed...?
- giantg2 6y agoWith any laws, some of the lines can be blurry. I'm not familiar with that specific situation. I just mention this because there are laws restricting military personnel pretty heavily from many political things, even just criticizing the president. The institution itself is absolutely forbidden from being involved in politics to prevent coups.
- tathougies 6y agoGlad to see this at the top. Indeed the officer did not violate the law. I believe some state even issued guidance that said slogans like Black Lives Matter or Make America Great Again, were okay. You simply cannot say "Vote Biden" or 'Vote Trump'.
- giantg2 6y agoThe real question is, what department allows their on-duty officers to wear non-uniform clothing articles for routine public assignments?
- tgb 6y agoI also worked polls in Philadelphia and we were also visited by non-uniform cops at the end of the day to do the (critical!) step of picking up the paper ballots. We got their badge numbers and names of course, but it was a little sketchy. The one who came by midday was uniformed, though.
- giantg2 6y agoVery interesting. Is it possible they were constables? They are very hit or miss, on uniforms and other aspects. Not sure if Philly has constables or not.
- tgb 6y agoI recall that the word "constable" was used in the big voter rights posters we had to put up, but frankly don't know any more than that.
- giantg2 6y agoPart of the constable's duties is to open and close the polls. I'm not sure if they're required to be there the whole time or not. Our's is usually there. Sometimes he is in uniform, and sometimes not.
- markn951 6y agoHere in Boston our officers were in uniform all day but they told us they drop off all the ballots out of uniform in their own personal vehicles, he surmised to be less obvious a target. I thought it was an interesting approach, perhaps not super effective but interesting.
- 6y ago
- maxerickson 6y agoIt's not just the flag, it's a stylized flag blended with the oath. Which is much more political than a plain flag. A simpler example might be a flag with 52 stars. It's blatantly political, even though it would likely be harder to notice than the hoodie I looked up. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/119415827607659191/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/119415827607659191/ (whether that's the exact same hoodie, who knows, but it matches the description close enough)
- nostromo 6y agoHe was still wrong though. The ban isn't on anything that might seem vaguely political... gay pride flag, blue line flag, trans flag, UAW hat, etc. They just can't support a candidate or political party.
- lscharen 6y agoIt depends. In Minnesota, wearing any of the items you listed would be considered electioneering if that was a major issue of the campaign. So if one candidate has made gay rights a major plank of their platform, then wearing a shirt with a gay pride flag would run afoul of the rules. But that same shirt would be allowed in the absence of that specific issue being promoted by a candidate’s campaign.
- WalterBright 6y agoThat means the rule would be wide open to interpretation. After all, who decides what a major issue is? It would seem far easier, and straightforward, and not a burden on anyone is simply wearing a plain shirt.
- maxerickson 6y agoI'm fine drawing a line for an officer carrying out election duties that goes further than for other people. They just shouldn't wear anything that puts the election workers in a position where they have to evaluate the political message. I guess that can be tricky if a uniform somehow became partisan though.
- ineedasername 6y agoGiven the other responses, consider it a gray area at best. And for something fundamental to the integrity of elections, I'd say it's best to err on the side of not having any possible appearance of impropriety.
- andrewem 6y agoSpeaking of not being allowed to enter a polling place wearing curtain clothes: "Since Tuesday, she has become known as the “Topless Voter.” The woman, who ripped off her T-shirt after objections that it was too political to wear inside the Exeter polls, said she has no regrets. “I said, ‘Well then, can I vote naked?’ He turned to me and said, ‘If you want to.’ So I took off my shirt,” she said. She said she kept on her mask because removing it would have been “unhealthy.”" https://www.unionleader.com/news/politics/voters/topless-voter-has-no-regrets-after-removing-shirt-at-exeter-polls/article_934c30e0-6f8f-593c-8619-73e3e449ae6d.html https://www.unionleader.com/news/politics/voters/topless-vot...
- nemo44x 6y agoDepressing how uncivilized and obnoxious people can be. We may want to reevaluate why we used to tech our children shame. It’s about mutual respect. Without that, we continue a downward spiral.
- voxl 6y agoBecause God forbid a women be topless... So disrespectful. We need to start shaming people who comment online again, remove all anonymity so we can publicly shame them for saying something stupid like a women voting topless should be shamed.
- nemo44x 6y agoIn this particular case it is. You can’t wear political clothing in a polling place. This law applies to everyone. To indignantly take your shirt off is disrespectful to the people there. It would be the same if it were a man taking his shirt off. The fact you instantly made it into some sort of anti-feminist or sexist screed sounds paranoid. Are we really this suspicious of each other? Do you honestly think “no shirt, no shoes, no service” makes for a worse society?
- bigbizisverywyz 6y ago"The woman said she has always been supportive of efforts like New Hampshire’s “Free the Nipple” campaign, though she doesn’t actively participate in such movements." Aha! Even more electioneering - where does it end with this woman? :)
- paradox242 6y agoI am pretty left- leaning and this also struck me as weird. Like the author, I too have a pretty good sense for the political affiliation that this sort of clothing represents (especially on a police officer) but it's not explicitly endorsing a political party and seems to only include the text of an oath made by all U.S. soldiers. It seems similar to someone wearing clothing that contained text of the Pledge of Allegiance, the Constitution, or the Declaration of Independence. Yes, we know the right wing loves this stuff but I really don't think it rises to the level of 'electioneering'. In fact, the guy was probably thinking 'Here's another lefty that hates the United States and the military'. It really does seem like there was some (unconscious?) bias at play here.