9 ms·

I can't speak to Denver, but reposting from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25000078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25000078 - no, Chicago voters did

by pushcx 6y ago

I can't speak to Denver, but reposting from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25000078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25000078 - no, Chicago voters did not do this: Hi, Chicago voter here. The question wasn't about public utility, it was "Should the City of Chicago act to ensure that all the City's community areas have access to broadband Internet?" which can imply a number of contradictory policies, from Chicago setting up municipal broadband to Chicago giving tax incentives to the existing national broadband providers. Illinois limits ballots to three referendum questions, and questions chosen by higher-up political entities have precedence over smaller, more local ones. The three questions on the ballot for Chicago are chosen by the Cook County Board of Commissioners. (For these purposes, Cook County is equivalent to the city of Chicago plus a couple neighboring suburbs.) Background established and into personal opinion: The question is in fact deliberately vague. The Board's goal is not to ask three divisive questions getting at the heart of urgent political matters. It is to fill the ballot with three questions to preclude local, less connected authorities from putting inconvenient, compelling questions on the ballot. Here's a 2018 court case reaffirming that (Calumet City is in Cook County): https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/daily-southtown/opini https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/daily-southtown/opini... These questions are deliberately worthless and it's a waste of time to analyze them for policy guidance. If you're curious, the other two questions this cycle were: * In creating its City-wide plan for continued growth and sustainability, should the City of Chicago place equal focus on the goals of resiliency, equity, and diversity? * Should the State of Illinois restrict the sale or possession of firearms that have been defined as assault weapons or of magazines that can hold more than a certain number of rounds of ammunition?

toddsiegel 6y ago
> In Denver, 83.5 percent of the city’s electorate cast ballots in favor of question 2H, which asked if the city should be exempt from a 2005 law, backed by local telecom monopolies, restricting Colorado towns and cities from being able to build their own local broadband alternatives. > Colorado is one of nearly two-dozen states that have passed laws, usually directly written by regional telecom monopolies, that hamstring or prevent the creation of such networks. > But in Colorado’s case, the state’s 2005 law included language that allows local towns and cities to opt-out of the restriction if voters agree to do so. W.r.t. Denver, the headline overstates things a bit, but the contents of the article are accurate. https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/08/denver-issue-2h-broadband-internet/ https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/08/denver-issue-2h-broadb...
C1sc0cat 6y ago
Reading the words of the motion "Should the City of Chicago act to ensure that all the City's community areas have access to broadband Internet?" Says nothing about the local government running the service "community areas" so that means just libraries council buildings or does it mean FTC or FTP for all homes? You right that allowing the executive to cherry pick motions is not democratic. The one "in creating its City-wide plan for continued growth and sustainability, should the City of Chicago place equal focus on the goals of resiliency, equity, and diversity?" is arguably pious and also does not propose any action.
- pgroves 6y ago
  When I read it on the ballot when I voted I immediately assumed it meant "libraries, etc", but now that you say that I'm worried "community areas" is bureaucrat-speak for "neighborhoods". Much different implications.
  - WillEngler 6y ago
    Yes, "community areas" is bureaucrat-speak for neighborhoods. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago) It's useful for city planners and the like because "neighborhoods" have fuzzy boundaries that people disagree on, but Chicago's community areas are well-defined.
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      > "community areas" is bureaucrat-speak for neighborhoods. Not exactly. "Community areas", in Chicago, represent a relatively stable division of the city, with the map drawn up by the government, in order to support city planning and suchlike. Many of them are named for the most prominent neighborhood that falls within their borders, but that's not always the case. Neighborhoods are a popular division, and is socially constructed by people as a whole. The boundaries are amorphous and constantly shifting. At my last apartment, my own neighbors described our block as falling within about 3 different neighborhoods. (This never resulted in any argument, because everyone understands that the definition of neighborhood is fuzzy at best.) Even where you have a community area and a neighborhood that share the same name, they don't necessarily coincide all that well. For example, just about nobody who lives in the area would recognize the boundaries of "Lincoln Square" as being those of the Lincoln Square community area. To them "Lincoln Square" means the the Lincoln Square neighborhood, which, even by the most generous of standards, is still maybe 1/5 the size of the community area by land mass. Aldermanic wards are yet another thing, and their boundaries really don't have much to do with neighborhoods or community areas. For starters, there are officially 50 aldermanic wards and 77 community areas.
throwaway894345 6y ago
I’m also a Chicago voter and I would be surprised if any city would reject the referendum as stated. “Do you want more free stuff or less free stuff?” It doesn’t discuss the downsides, especially the opportunity costs—Chicago is in a budget crisis which has been exacerbated by COVID and maybe that money could be better spent on those who have lost jobs or something, but none of that nuance is represented on the ballot. Note that I’m not actually opposed to this initiative per se, only remarking that the support probably has more to do with the presentation of the initiative than it’s merit.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  Also not on the ballot was any discussion of how Chicago spends it's billions of dollars that led to this budget crisis, though I'm sure there are numerous programs both less profitable and less popular than this one.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    There is only one notable cause of Chicago’s budget crisis, and that is deferring the expense of labor performed decades ago to today’s taxpayer via defined benefit pensions and retiree healthcare. Same with Illinois, and pretty much all the other governments out there. It’s the easiest way to promise low taxes today and shift expenses onto future generations who have no say. It almost works as long as people keep having 3+ kids and the tax base keeps growing. Not so much once population growth stalls and the tax base suffers income stagnation.
    - Shivetya 6y ago
      Illinois [0] is not alone but its far simpler to find good figures on how bad the state and various counties and cities are failing their employees and residents. There was hope of a Federal bailout of all pension funds, numerous covid19 bills tried to bury them into the dollars, but fortunately that may be off the table as the Congressional elections did not pan out as needed. Yyes, the expectation was the Feds would not use the Pension Benefit Guarantee System to salvage something but actually fund them with tax dollars. The PBGS should be the default solution but is not a friendly solution as benefits are generally brought back from silly levels. The issue with many public pension systems is that too many payouts are excessive. No pension system, notably no public, show being paying out six figure retirements in addition to health benefits. California had to use a law to cap theirs around 125k but that has faced numerous challenges and may see more in the future. They do deserve their retirement pay but it needs to be reasonable and equal across the board to best serve the public and employee interest. The lower paid employees are not well served and the managerial and certain others are over compensated in retirement. [0]https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/pension-apocalypse-covid-19-exposes-long-running-fragility-of-illinois-public-pensions/ https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/pension-apocalypse-co...
x87678r 6y ago
Chicago will get a big slush fund to pay for some unspecified infrastructure down the road? What could go wrong.
rayiner 6y ago
And even if the referendum had included a call for the city to build broadband, there was no price tag listed. People love programs that are free and don’t involve trade-offs with things that cost money.
- tzs 6y ago
  Most municipal broadband projects I've heard about have either ended up quite a bit cheaper/faster than the commercial broadband that was already in the area, or have been in smaller towns or rural areas where there wasn't any commercial broadband.
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  I instinctively do not vote for things that show me the price tag and duration. Do XYZ for X years from a bond of Y paid at Z percentage rate for blah years to be financed from a increase in taxes of somenumber percent for X years. If that is not on there that is an open ended contract to waste everyone's time and money.
danso 6y ago
It's true that the Chicago referendum is non-binding, but worthwhile context is that Chicago this past June has already made moves to develop free high-speed internet for public school students [0]. The success of even this palliative referendum will, ostensibly, give them political cover to push for additional initiatives and referendums: > CHICAGO – Mayor Lori E. Lightfoot today announced the launch of ‘Chicago Connected,’ a groundbreaking program that will provide free high-speed internet service to approximately 100,000 Chicago Public Schools (CPS) students in their households. This first-of-its-kind program will be one of the largest and longest-term efforts in the nation to provide free, high-speed internet over the course of four years to dramatically increase internet accessibility for students and help build a permanent public support system for families in Chicago. [0] https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/mayor/press_room/press_releases/2020/june/CPSInternetAccess.html https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/mayor/press_room/press...
snarf21 6y ago
Interesting. That really stinks that Cook County can block. It seems like there needs to be a change where the 3 referendum with the most signatures is what is on the ballot.
throwaway201103 6y ago
In Chicago, it means that ISPs will need to pay off the aldermen to be the "preferred" provider of public broadband in each ward.
robswc 6y ago
I tend to avoid politics but I really can't believe such a question was asked to voters. With how vague that question is, its almost entirely useless. Like another poster said, it essentially could be boiled down to "do you want good thing or not?" I feel like something that vague has no business being "voted" on.
flaque 6y ago
These read like essay prompts

by pushcx 6y ago

toddsiegel 6y ago

> In Denver, 83.5 percent of the city’s electorate cast ballots in favor of question 2H, which asked if the city should be exempt from a 2005 law, backed by local telecom monopolies, restricting Colorado towns and cities from being able to build their own local broadband alternatives. > Colorado is one of nearly two-dozen states that have passed laws, usually directly written by regional telecom monopolies, that hamstring or prevent the creation of such networks. > But in Colorado’s case, the state’s 2005 law included language that allows local towns and cities to opt-out of the restriction if voters agree to do so. W.r.t. Denver, the headline overstates things a bit, but the contents of the article are accurate. https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/08/denver-issue-2h-broadband-internet/ https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/08/denver-issue-2h-broadb...

C1sc0cat 6y ago

Reading the words of the motion "Should the City of Chicago act to ensure that all the City's community areas have access to broadband Internet?" Says nothing about the local government running the service "community areas" so that means just libraries council buildings or does it mean FTC or FTP for all homes? You right that allowing the executive to cherry pick motions is not democratic. The one "in creating its City-wide plan for continued growth and sustainability, should the City of Chicago place equal focus on the goals of resiliency, equity, and diversity?" is arguably pious and also does not propose any action.

pgroves 6y ago
When I read it on the ballot when I voted I immediately assumed it meant "libraries, etc", but now that you say that I'm worried "community areas" is bureaucrat-speak for "neighborhoods". Much different implications.
- WillEngler 6y ago
  Yes, "community areas" is bureaucrat-speak for neighborhoods. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago) It's useful for city planners and the like because "neighborhoods" have fuzzy boundaries that people disagree on, but Chicago's community areas are well-defined.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    > "community areas" is bureaucrat-speak for neighborhoods. Not exactly. "Community areas", in Chicago, represent a relatively stable division of the city, with the map drawn up by the government, in order to support city planning and suchlike. Many of them are named for the most prominent neighborhood that falls within their borders, but that's not always the case. Neighborhoods are a popular division, and is socially constructed by people as a whole. The boundaries are amorphous and constantly shifting. At my last apartment, my own neighbors described our block as falling within about 3 different neighborhoods. (This never resulted in any argument, because everyone understands that the definition of neighborhood is fuzzy at best.) Even where you have a community area and a neighborhood that share the same name, they don't necessarily coincide all that well. For example, just about nobody who lives in the area would recognize the boundaries of "Lincoln Square" as being those of the Lincoln Square community area. To them "Lincoln Square" means the the Lincoln Square neighborhood, which, even by the most generous of standards, is still maybe 1/5 the size of the community area by land mass. Aldermanic wards are yet another thing, and their boundaries really don't have much to do with neighborhoods or community areas. For starters, there are officially 50 aldermanic wards and 77 community areas.

throwaway894345 6y ago

I’m also a Chicago voter and I would be surprised if any city would reject the referendum as stated. “Do you want more free stuff or less free stuff?” It doesn’t discuss the downsides, especially the opportunity costs—Chicago is in a budget crisis which has been exacerbated by COVID and maybe that money could be better spent on those who have lost jobs or something, but none of that nuance is represented on the ballot. Note that I’m not actually opposed to this initiative per se, only remarking that the support probably has more to do with the presentation of the initiative than it’s merit.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
Also not on the ballot was any discussion of how Chicago spends it's billions of dollars that led to this budget crisis, though I'm sure there are numerous programs both less profitable and less popular than this one.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  There is only one notable cause of Chicago’s budget crisis, and that is deferring the expense of labor performed decades ago to today’s taxpayer via defined benefit pensions and retiree healthcare. Same with Illinois, and pretty much all the other governments out there. It’s the easiest way to promise low taxes today and shift expenses onto future generations who have no say. It almost works as long as people keep having 3+ kids and the tax base keeps growing. Not so much once population growth stalls and the tax base suffers income stagnation.
  - Shivetya 6y ago
    Illinois [0] is not alone but its far simpler to find good figures on how bad the state and various counties and cities are failing their employees and residents. There was hope of a Federal bailout of all pension funds, numerous covid19 bills tried to bury them into the dollars, but fortunately that may be off the table as the Congressional elections did not pan out as needed. Yyes, the expectation was the Feds would not use the Pension Benefit Guarantee System to salvage something but actually fund them with tax dollars. The PBGS should be the default solution but is not a friendly solution as benefits are generally brought back from silly levels. The issue with many public pension systems is that too many payouts are excessive. No pension system, notably no public, show being paying out six figure retirements in addition to health benefits. California had to use a law to cap theirs around 125k but that has faced numerous challenges and may see more in the future. They do deserve their retirement pay but it needs to be reasonable and equal across the board to best serve the public and employee interest. The lower paid employees are not well served and the managerial and certain others are over compensated in retirement. [0]https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/pension-apocalypse-covid-19-exposes-long-running-fragility-of-illinois-public-pensions/ https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/pension-apocalypse-co...

x87678r 6y ago

Chicago will get a big slush fund to pay for some unspecified infrastructure down the road? What could go wrong.

rayiner 6y ago

And even if the referendum had included a call for the city to build broadband, there was no price tag listed. People love programs that are free and don’t involve trade-offs with things that cost money.

tzs 6y ago
Most municipal broadband projects I've heard about have either ended up quite a bit cheaper/faster than the commercial broadband that was already in the area, or have been in smaller towns or rural areas where there wasn't any commercial broadband.
sumtechguy 6y ago
I instinctively do not vote for things that show me the price tag and duration. Do XYZ for X years from a bond of Y paid at Z percentage rate for blah years to be financed from a increase in taxes of somenumber percent for X years. If that is not on there that is an open ended contract to waste everyone's time and money.

danso 6y ago

It's true that the Chicago referendum is non-binding, but worthwhile context is that Chicago this past June has already made moves to develop free high-speed internet for public school students [0]. The success of even this palliative referendum will, ostensibly, give them political cover to push for additional initiatives and referendums: > CHICAGO – Mayor Lori E. Lightfoot today announced the launch of ‘Chicago Connected,’ a groundbreaking program that will provide free high-speed internet service to approximately 100,000 Chicago Public Schools (CPS) students in their households. This first-of-its-kind program will be one of the largest and longest-term efforts in the nation to provide free, high-speed internet over the course of four years to dramatically increase internet accessibility for students and help build a permanent public support system for families in Chicago. [0] https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/mayor/press_room/press_releases/2020/june/CPSInternetAccess.html https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/mayor/press_room/press...

snarf21 6y ago

Interesting. That really stinks that Cook County can block. It seems like there needs to be a change where the 3 referendum with the most signatures is what is on the ballot.

throwaway201103 6y ago

In Chicago, it means that ISPs will need to pay off the aldermen to be the "preferred" provider of public broadband in each ward.

robswc 6y ago

I tend to avoid politics but I really can't believe such a question was asked to voters. With how vague that question is, its almost entirely useless. Like another poster said, it essentially could be boiled down to "do you want good thing or not?" I feel like something that vague has no business being "voted" on.

flaque 6y ago

These read like essay prompts