7 ms·

Artificial intelligence may be making people buy things

77 points by edward 6y ago

space_fountain 6y ago
Not that it's always bad to rehash things, but the title as stated is almost tautological. Of course AI (as the media loosely defines it). Yeah obviously product recommendations are about making you buy more things (at least from that brand). What did you think the money was being invested in? The article title seems a bit less obvious while also better describing what the article is about > How artificial intelligence may be making you buy things
- kordlessagain 6y ago
  Things are either redundant or they aren't. They can't be almost redundant, because then they wouldn't serve the purpose of being redundant. Now we have word salad out of the way, I can say that it is absolutely possible to game the way people see the world to make them buy things they don't need or want and that GPT-3 has shown us it's possible to do that with a neural network which is basically pitting it against your average human's ability to resist it. This could be a type of addiction and corporations peddle that shit all day long as we well know.
ahupp 6y ago
Alternatively: how AI is helping you find the things you want.
- drran 6y ago
  YOUR AI will help you. THEIR AI will trick you.
- asdff 6y ago
  How AI is convincing you to want things you don't need
  - weego 6y ago
    How fairly basic data analysis and machine learning are used to optimise product sales.
visarga 6y ago
Good advertising might also be making people buy things.. and word of mouth, and having a good previous experience with the product. So what? Ah, I see, it's easier to blame it on the instrument than the handler this time. Let's blame the beneficiary instead, it's their purse and final decision. If we're worried about the environment, we should totally tax or outlaw bad practices, but do this at the appropriate level, not in software.
- imtringued 6y ago
  It's true. The primary purpose of an ad is to connect buyers and sellers and this is why companies spend an enormous budget on it but a lot of ads have a deceptive component to them. The real product is nowhere near as good, often just a lot of hot air and sometimes a complete dud.
  - amelius 6y ago
    But ads also sit at the wrong level. Instead of connecting the buyer with the seller who happened to have the biggest marketing budget, we should be connecting the buyer with all potential sellers.
nyrulez 6y ago
This article feels a few years too late. Of course, AI is in every aspect of advertising and content recommendations to "help" you make more targeted choices. I speak as a former insider who spent many year building advanced systems for increasing conversions. What's worth talking about in 2020 though is: - What is the differential power that companies with advanced AI hold over other smaller players like mom and pop stores or smaller retailers? Is AI sophistication the new "income inequality" since smaller companies that can't wield that power get out-competed by larger players, leading to extreme concentration in the hands of few as time goes on? - Compared to 2000-2010, what is the net increase in 2010-2020 for consumerism for someone making the same salary given online + AI influencing buying behavior? How does that fare for 2020-2030 and is that a sustainable path for the planet? - How is AI influencing our buying habits and consumerism in general? Are we buying new type of things we'd never have considered before? Does it change who we are as people? - Why are we not using AI to weed out bad reviews just like we do for email spam? Is the lack of AI in the right places equally harmful in making us buy more? Does Amazon really not have the resources to score reviews given how obviously fake top reviews tend to be for almost every non-brand item you look up on amazon?
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  I feel like it's up to the consumer how much he wants to be influenced by ads. I use an ad blocker online. I never see ads. I rarely shop on Amazon because of the counterfeit risk and overall mediocre satisfaction. When I do it's for something specific that I've researched in advance. I don't watch TV and I have Youtube Premium so I don't see ads there. I do most of my shopping at local retailers and buy the brands I've bought for years.
  - llamataboot 6y ago
    Don't worry, there's ads for people that think they don't watch or care about ads as well...
    - mikeyouse 6y ago
      Right. It's amusing that people think they can just "opt out" of ads. Sure, you might miss the preroll commercial but just about every car, every cell phone, every drink, and every clothing choice that you see in media is a paid placement now. Some of it is more obvious than others, "I can't believe how great this Ford Fusion handles" but most of it is just a flash of a logo in the broader plot.
ncmncm 6y ago
I observe myself buying Crowd Supply gadgets I more often than not find I have not powered up. One wonders.
- AussieWog93 6y ago
  I worked with the Crowd Supply people as a project creator a couple of years back. They didn't seem to have any sophisticated AI that was trying to manipulate users into buying crap - they did have plain ol' Google Analytics, but they also went to the effort of removing unnecessary JavaScript from their site so that NoScript/AdBlock wouldn't run into any issues. I think it's more a fundamental issue related to crowdfunding itself - you buy a product that you're interested in at the time, but don't receive anything until a year later. By then, there's a decent chance you've moved on and no longer need it.
bmitc 6y ago
It's been quite clear to me for some time that our technological intelligence progresses at a rate far exceeding that of our emotional intelligence, which may not be progressing at all. So when I see articles like this, it isn't surprising at all. Technology is used today to basically "hack" our emotional brain to get us to do or think things we otherwise wouldn't. It's clear we are progressing technologically. Does anyone know of any science that describes how our emotions and the biology that generates them are progressing, particularly in our more and more technological world?
- kcolford 6y ago
  I love that this point has been brought up. Everything I see has suggested that our emotional intelligence is actually falling if anything. We're inundated with self-help material that is just the same garbage spewn over again. Everything of value has been drowned out by the noise. People are struggling more than ever with their emotional state. Social media was supposed to be this great connector yet its practically crippling our ability to form connections. The cynic in me says it's deliberate; to subdue the masses, but I know that the reality is that there's just no money to be gained after you fix someone, and no one's going to pay to be fixed unless it's a guarantee. That's why we're stuck with individual therapy for even the most trivial things. Such a massive inefficient system we live in, and it's only made worse since there is money to be made by making someone less emotionally stable; by making them vulnerable you make them easier to manipulate and more succeptable to advertising. It's a cycle where the incentives are all misaligned.
throwaway2245 6y ago
> "With the app we have found that the average contents of a basket are up 20%, and people with the app are three times more likely to return to shop in that store" How does this compare to any loyalty scheme that people opt into? I'd think this applies also to people who pick up a paper stamp card.
- a_imho 6y ago
  It is exactly the other way around. People who frequent a store are more likely to know about their promotions or opt it to their programs. Source: me, I usually shop at the closest shops in person and more likely to have their cards and coupons. Also the numbers are meaningless without a baseline.
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    I think you are agreeing with me, but I'm not sure? I am suggesting that the quoted figures are what you would expect without AI being involved, and perhaps they are even not that good.
    - a_imho 6y ago
      Yes, I do agree. No novel insights in the article.
a_imho 6y ago
Or not. There is really no data in the article besides some very contrived self reported numbers. In Germany, a Berlin start-up called SO1 is doing similar things with its AI system for retailers. It claims that nine times more people buy AI-suggested goods than those offered by traditional promotions, even when the discounts are 30% less. To me it suggests exactly the opposite of the title. No AI secret sauce, just smoke and mirrors.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  Can you walk us through how the quote doesn't support the title? It seems to strongly support the title.
  - a_imho 6y ago
    Sure. 1. The title is meaningless. Replace the HN title's 'may' with 'may not' and it is exactly the same thing. 2. Especially if you consider the original title is How artificial intelligence may be making you buy things. There is nothing concrete in there. 3. It you read that quote again it is a very carefully worded and cherrypicked piece of data, something that is very common in AI hype articles. Without the actual numbers it is also meaningless. Again, it is only my interpretation that the article is disingenuous, feel free to disagree.
    - Ensorceled 6y ago
      But the quote, IF TRUE, supports the title. You are claiming the quote implies the opposite. I also think the article is overblown even though I agree that AI shapes peoples behaviours in ways that is manipulative, but your original critique is illogical.
      - a_imho 6y ago
        Yes. I claim it is textbook weasel wording. Which to me sends the opposite message. Call it illogical if you will. No, the statement can be true and does not support the title. Say we have X AI offered goods and Y traditional promotions where |X| >> |Y|. Then it is not surprising more people buy AI offered goods. The statement remains true, but not what it wants to imply. Also we do not know other factors about the goods, say Xs are popular while Ys are not, they are not controlled for. Literally apples to oranges.
hyko 6y ago
No. AI is a tool. Companies are trying to make people buy things.
- a4444f 6y ago
  No. Companies are a legal fiction. People are trying to make people buy things. No. People are a language fiction. Languages are trying to make people buy things.
  - hyko 6y ago
    I think we can probably stop at people in this context :)
Proven 6y ago
So does natural stupidity. It doesn't matter whether you come up with a stupid idea yourself, you get it from a stupid friend or from a stupid AI. In the end, it's up to you to decide. What's the point of this article anyway? To "prove" we need more regulation?
indymike 6y ago
The word "making" in the headline may be a bit strong.
mark_l_watson 6y ago
The article is a little thin on breaking news. I think that Zuboff’s book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power is the definitive and scholarly material on AI and data driving people’s actions. Control of behavior at scale. Neoliberalism. All the right topics for understanding where we are headed.

77 points by edward 6y ago

Not that it's always bad to rehash things, but the title as stated is almost tautological. Of course AI (as the media loosely defines it). Yeah obviously product recommendations are about making you buy more things (at least from that brand). What did you think the money was being invested in? The article title seems a bit less obvious while also better describing what the article is about > How artificial intelligence may be making you buy things

kordlessagain 6y ago
Things are either redundant or they aren't. They can't be almost redundant, because then they wouldn't serve the purpose of being redundant. Now we have word salad out of the way, I can say that it is absolutely possible to game the way people see the world to make them buy things they don't need or want and that GPT-3 has shown us it's possible to do that with a neural network which is basically pitting it against your average human's ability to resist it. This could be a type of addiction and corporations peddle that shit all day long as we well know.

ahupp 6y ago

Alternatively: how AI is helping you find the things you want.

drran 6y ago
YOUR AI will help you. THEIR AI will trick you.
asdff 6y ago
How AI is convincing you to want things you don't need
- weego 6y ago
  How fairly basic data analysis and machine learning are used to optimise product sales.

visarga 6y ago

Good advertising might also be making people buy things.. and word of mouth, and having a good previous experience with the product. So what? Ah, I see, it's easier to blame it on the instrument than the handler this time. Let's blame the beneficiary instead, it's their purse and final decision. If we're worried about the environment, we should totally tax or outlaw bad practices, but do this at the appropriate level, not in software.

imtringued 6y ago
It's true. The primary purpose of an ad is to connect buyers and sellers and this is why companies spend an enormous budget on it but a lot of ads have a deceptive component to them. The real product is nowhere near as good, often just a lot of hot air and sometimes a complete dud.
- amelius 6y ago
  But ads also sit at the wrong level. Instead of connecting the buyer with the seller who happened to have the biggest marketing budget, we should be connecting the buyer with all potential sellers.

nyrulez 6y ago

This article feels a few years too late. Of course, AI is in every aspect of advertising and content recommendations to "help" you make more targeted choices. I speak as a former insider who spent many year building advanced systems for increasing conversions. What's worth talking about in 2020 though is: - What is the differential power that companies with advanced AI hold over other smaller players like mom and pop stores or smaller retailers? Is AI sophistication the new "income inequality" since smaller companies that can't wield that power get out-competed by larger players, leading to extreme concentration in the hands of few as time goes on? - Compared to 2000-2010, what is the net increase in 2010-2020 for consumerism for someone making the same salary given online + AI influencing buying behavior? How does that fare for 2020-2030 and is that a sustainable path for the planet? - How is AI influencing our buying habits and consumerism in general? Are we buying new type of things we'd never have considered before? Does it change who we are as people? - Why are we not using AI to weed out bad reviews just like we do for email spam? Is the lack of AI in the right places equally harmful in making us buy more? Does Amazon really not have the resources to score reviews given how obviously fake top reviews tend to be for almost every non-brand item you look up on amazon?

throwaway201103 6y ago
I feel like it's up to the consumer how much he wants to be influenced by ads. I use an ad blocker online. I never see ads. I rarely shop on Amazon because of the counterfeit risk and overall mediocre satisfaction. When I do it's for something specific that I've researched in advance. I don't watch TV and I have Youtube Premium so I don't see ads there. I do most of my shopping at local retailers and buy the brands I've bought for years.
- llamataboot 6y ago
  Don't worry, there's ads for people that think they don't watch or care about ads as well...
  - mikeyouse 6y ago
    Right. It's amusing that people think they can just "opt out" of ads. Sure, you might miss the preroll commercial but just about every car, every cell phone, every drink, and every clothing choice that you see in media is a paid placement now. Some of it is more obvious than others, "I can't believe how great this Ford Fusion handles" but most of it is just a flash of a logo in the broader plot.

ncmncm 6y ago

I observe myself buying Crowd Supply gadgets I more often than not find I have not powered up. One wonders.

AussieWog93 6y ago
I worked with the Crowd Supply people as a project creator a couple of years back. They didn't seem to have any sophisticated AI that was trying to manipulate users into buying crap - they did have plain ol' Google Analytics, but they also went to the effort of removing unnecessary JavaScript from their site so that NoScript/AdBlock wouldn't run into any issues. I think it's more a fundamental issue related to crowdfunding itself - you buy a product that you're interested in at the time, but don't receive anything until a year later. By then, there's a decent chance you've moved on and no longer need it.

bmitc 6y ago

It's been quite clear to me for some time that our technological intelligence progresses at a rate far exceeding that of our emotional intelligence, which may not be progressing at all. So when I see articles like this, it isn't surprising at all. Technology is used today to basically "hack" our emotional brain to get us to do or think things we otherwise wouldn't. It's clear we are progressing technologically. Does anyone know of any science that describes how our emotions and the biology that generates them are progressing, particularly in our more and more technological world?

kcolford 6y ago
I love that this point has been brought up. Everything I see has suggested that our emotional intelligence is actually falling if anything. We're inundated with self-help material that is just the same garbage spewn over again. Everything of value has been drowned out by the noise. People are struggling more than ever with their emotional state. Social media was supposed to be this great connector yet its practically crippling our ability to form connections. The cynic in me says it's deliberate; to subdue the masses, but I know that the reality is that there's just no money to be gained after you fix someone, and no one's going to pay to be fixed unless it's a guarantee. That's why we're stuck with individual therapy for even the most trivial things. Such a massive inefficient system we live in, and it's only made worse since there is money to be made by making someone less emotionally stable; by making them vulnerable you make them easier to manipulate and more succeptable to advertising. It's a cycle where the incentives are all misaligned.

throwaway2245 6y ago

> "With the app we have found that the average contents of a basket are up 20%, and people with the app are three times more likely to return to shop in that store" How does this compare to any loyalty scheme that people opt into? I'd think this applies also to people who pick up a paper stamp card.

a_imho 6y ago
It is exactly the other way around. People who frequent a store are more likely to know about their promotions or opt it to their programs. Source: me, I usually shop at the closest shops in person and more likely to have their cards and coupons. Also the numbers are meaningless without a baseline.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  I think you are agreeing with me, but I'm not sure? I am suggesting that the quoted figures are what you would expect without AI being involved, and perhaps they are even not that good.
  - a_imho 6y ago
    Yes, I do agree. No novel insights in the article.

a_imho 6y ago

Or not. There is really no data in the article besides some very contrived self reported numbers. In Germany, a Berlin start-up called SO1 is doing similar things with its AI system for retailers. It claims that nine times more people buy AI-suggested goods than those offered by traditional promotions, even when the discounts are 30% less. To me it suggests exactly the opposite of the title. No AI secret sauce, just smoke and mirrors.

Ensorceled 6y ago
Can you walk us through how the quote doesn't support the title? It seems to strongly support the title.
- a_imho 6y ago
  Sure. 1. The title is meaningless. Replace the HN title's 'may' with 'may not' and it is exactly the same thing. 2. Especially if you consider the original title is How artificial intelligence may be making you buy things. There is nothing concrete in there. 3. It you read that quote again it is a very carefully worded and cherrypicked piece of data, something that is very common in AI hype articles. Without the actual numbers it is also meaningless. Again, it is only my interpretation that the article is disingenuous, feel free to disagree.
  - Ensorceled 6y ago
    But the quote, IF TRUE, supports the title. You are claiming the quote implies the opposite. I also think the article is overblown even though I agree that AI shapes peoples behaviours in ways that is manipulative, but your original critique is illogical.
    - a_imho 6y ago
      Yes. I claim it is textbook weasel wording. Which to me sends the opposite message. Call it illogical if you will. No, the statement can be true and does not support the title. Say we have X AI offered goods and Y traditional promotions where |X| >> |Y|. Then it is not surprising more people buy AI offered goods. The statement remains true, but not what it wants to imply. Also we do not know other factors about the goods, say Xs are popular while Ys are not, they are not controlled for. Literally apples to oranges.

hyko 6y ago

No. AI is a tool. Companies are trying to make people buy things.

a4444f 6y ago
No. Companies are a legal fiction. People are trying to make people buy things. No. People are a language fiction. Languages are trying to make people buy things.
- hyko 6y ago
  I think we can probably stop at people in this context :)

Proven 6y ago

So does natural stupidity. It doesn't matter whether you come up with a stupid idea yourself, you get it from a stupid friend or from a stupid AI. In the end, it's up to you to decide. What's the point of this article anyway? To "prove" we need more regulation?

indymike 6y ago

The word "making" in the headline may be a bit strong.

mark_l_watson 6y ago

The article is a little thin on breaking news. I think that Zuboff’s book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power is the definitive and scholarly material on AI and data driving people’s actions. Control of behavior at scale. Neoliberalism. All the right topics for understanding where we are headed.