26 ms·

Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

195 points by 3131s 6y ago

MattGaiser 6y ago
Well, who here buys their vegetables based on nutrition? Who even knows how nutritious their particular vegetables are (probably not if you have a lab)? Companies optimize for what customers will pay for, and everything else falls by the wayside.
- taneq 6y ago
  When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. Always.
- camhart 6y ago
  Strawberries in the USA are huge. Sometimes they remind me of an Apple. Go to Denmark--they're small but packed full of flavor. I would much rather have the smaller ones. I wonder if the large, crisp, apple-esc strawberries really sell better. They're certainly bigger.
  - markdown 6y ago
    I feel the same about hydroponically grown tomatoes. They're just bigs bags of barely flavoured water.
    - riffraff 6y ago
      AFAIU that depends on the nutrients added to the water. You could have good tasting hydroponically grown tomatoes, but nobody cares.
  - Thlom 6y ago
    Best strawberries in the world are found in a small valley on the west coast of Norway where the combination of late summer, cool nights and long summer days with lots of sunlight makes for a long ripening process and perfect strawberries.
    - fogihujy 6y ago
      Finnish strawberries are clearly superior! ;) Jokes aside, my personal experience is that strawberries grown in some grandmother's garden in a Nordic country, including Denmark, will beat the mass-produced stuff in the stores when it comes to taste. I can't imagine the same wouldn't apply to Canadian or Russian strawberries, grown under similar conditions, as well.
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    In Paris in 1985 (only time I've been there) you could buy massive strawberries from street stalls by the kilo, the size of a small apple, cheap, and super-delicious. I don't know where they came from or why I've never seen them here in Australia. Apart from that, I had delicious small homegrown ones as a kid, and the occasional almost or totally tasteless medium-sized ones from shops ever since. I always wonder how it feels to be a farmer growing totally tasteless strawberries for a living.
    - nobodyandproud 6y ago
      > I always wonder how it feels to be a farmer growing totally tasteless strawberries for a living. I imagine it’s a bland but fruitful experience.
  - tzot 6y ago
    I remember a joke from my childhood, where an American tourist is browsing a local farmer's market commenting how small everything is compared to American produce, so when the tourist sees watermelons and asks “and what are these?”, the annoyed vendor just says “oh, they're just peas”.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > Strawberries in the USA are huge Plant hormones added
- stinos 6y ago
  Companies optimize for what customers will pay for Could be, but arent't there other mechanisms? Like companies optimizing for profit, then using advertisement to lure customers in paying for it?
- taurath 6y ago
  In the US, companies optimize for what they can industrialize and ship out to an entire country regardless of locality. And customers want is changing pretty quickly. But for me, the “standard” grocery store produce aisle hasn’t changed much at all in the last few decades - mostly just organics that again are optimized for national supply chains and away from taste.
- kleiba 6y ago
  In a way, I would say I do - but not to a point where I buy completely untasty stuff just for the nutritional value. But I love it when I see, say, a beautiful cauliflower that looks fresh and tasty not only because I'm looking forward to the pleasure of tasting it but also because somewhere in the back of my head something tells me "that's good stuff". However, of course I'm just assuming that something is actually nutritious. You're right that I don't actually know that, and that kinda is the point of the article, right? We have all been taught that veggies are good for you, bla bla bla, but in the light of the article you can now at least wonder to what degree that is still as true as it was some years ago.
- trevyn 6y ago
  >Well, who here buys their vegetables based on nutrition? I would never buy vegetables if they weren’t important for nutrition.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    Yes, but can you determine the nutritional differences between carrot 1 and carrot 2?
    - trevyn 6y ago
      I’m not sure anyone can, even with a lab. I think the metabolic and behavioral impact of many plant molecules is completely unclear at this point. We know what simple micronutrients are necessary to prevent obvious deficiency disorders, and you can take those in a pill today, but there are many more subtle disorders. There’s a reason doctors suggest fresh fruits and vegetables, instead of inventing a multivitamin and psyllium husk supplement to replace vegetables.
- BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago
  I always smell tomatoes in the supermarket. People hate me.
ctoth 6y ago
See also [0] which seems to argue convincingly against this. [0] Mineral nutrient composition of vegetables, fruits and grains: The context of reports of apparent historical declines https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889157516302113 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915751...
- gregwebs 6y ago
  There seems to be some common ground (even if soil is in dispute!) on high yield dilution though. The abstract states: Contemporaneous analyses of modern versus old crop varieties grown side-by-side, and archived samples, show lower mineral concentrations in varieties bred for higher yields where increased carbohydrate is not accompanied by proportional increases in minerals – a “dilution effect”.
- taurath 6y ago
  > Comparisons with matching archived soil samples show soil mineral content has not declined in locations cultivated intensively with various fertilizer treatments. So not that depleted soils don’t deplete vegetables, but the soils they found were not depleted. I wonder if they were focused on the same soils
punnerud 6y ago
Blueberries that taste the same but are transparent in the middle. Tomatoes that tase water. Cucumber that look great and almost tasteless. You don't know what you are missing if you have never tasted the "real" deal.
- kleiba 6y ago
  Sure, but this is not about taste in the first place, it's about the nutritional value of your produce. After all, eating fulfills more than one purpose.
  - stinos 6y ago
    Wouldn't be surprised if there's a relation between taste and nutritional value though.
    - kleiba 6y ago
      Well, taste is subjective - nutritional value less so.
      - stinos 6y ago
        True, but that's orthogonal. You could still set up double-blind studies comparing taste, I think.
        kleiba 6y ago
        Of course, if you average subjectivity out, it's not longer there. But what's the point?
      - coldtea 6y ago
        The kind of taste changes we're talking about here are not subjective though. E.g. they're not about "I like it more or less" but e.g. about the taste changing from sweeter to less sweet. For example tomatoes (it's covered in a few books on the subject) have lost a large part of their sugar content after the 80s due to mass market techniques and genes that yield more and less quickly riping ones, but of lower taste.
justinbaker84 6y ago
TLDR: Yes.
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kleiba 6y ago
I would argue that it's less relevant whether produce has become less nutritious than in previous years, but that the more relevant question is whether it is still nutritious enough. There's not point in having excess vitamins, say, if most of it will not even be absorbed by your body. That said, a second question is where the current trend is going to lead then. If we are on a steady decline in nutritiousness of our produce what is the projection for 50 years from now?
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Lucasoato 6y ago
In Italy it's happening the same phenomenon. Big supermarkets are selling bigger tasteless fruits and vegetables, while little shops keep selling the little nutritious version.
perfunctory 6y ago
On a related note - "High CO2 Makes Crops Less Nutritious" https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/5/140507-crops-nutrition-climate-change-carbon-dioxide-science/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/5/140507-crops-...
- londons_explore 6y ago
  If you want to grow crops in a low CO2 environment, just grow them in a greenhouse with near zero ventilation. The CO2 levels in the greenhouse will drop rapidly, and the plants will grow much slower. Don't add mulch or fresh topsoil, because that gives off a lot of carbon, especially when disturbed.
mindwok 6y ago
Do pesticides and herbicides reduce soil quality? The article says avoiding them is beneficial but it's not clear why that is.
- philprx 6y ago
  Well it kills some living organism. These don't develop. It has a result on environnement including soil. Now it's it measurable everywhere? No. There are a couple research papers and video documentaries that compare on the same area, sometime same hill, the difference in soil: one was marking as the only difference was treatment or zero treatment. Difference was around 5 inches / 15 cm higher soil in non treated parcel... Now this is exactly the kind of question where everyone is going to find examples that suit their personal view, even with studies backing their point. It so much depends on region and soil, treatment, measurability of molecule effects etc...
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Soil is alive, and plants have various direct and indirect symbiotic relationships with things in the soil. Application and especially misapplication of various treatments (add fertilizer and fungicides to your list) can easily do significant harm to the soil ecology, which in turn causes get need for more or more intense treatments. The easy answer is “never” the better answer is “smarter”.
- OneGuy123 6y ago
  Yes
  - 0-_-0 6y ago
    How
feralimal 6y ago
Well, colour me shocked!! Modern farming doesn't produce as nutritious fruit and vegetables as that of the past. (Where everything was organic, and the land was managed sensibly.) Maybe we need to 'fortify' our veg, by adding calcium (chalk), and iron (fine iron filings) to it!
- 3131s 6y ago
  Fortifying plants by adding B12 to the soil is known to work. We absolutely should look into it.
- riffraff 6y ago
  > Where everything was organic, and the land was managed sensibly my father, and everyone else in my home town, had his vegetable garden. It was not "organic growth", not even in the insane legal sense where giving bordeaux mixture[0] is considered organic farming. His stuff still tasted great, because it's not "inorganic" that make things tasteless, it's specific industrial production and distribution processes. [0] some toxic pollutant heavy metal compounds are 100% acceptable in organic farming, because they have been used for so long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_mixture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_mixture
  - feralimal 6y ago
    I agree. I actually don't think organic is as good as whatever natural methods were used. I would prefer wild or food grown on less 'managed' land - that would be the gold standard for me.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > I agree. I actually don't think organic is as good as whatever natural methods were used. I would prefer wild or food grown on less 'managed' land - that would be the gold standard for me. Then you'd starve on your golden standard, and probably revert to the 30 year life expectancy most of Humanity had prior to the advent of agriculture. Collectively as a Species I don't think there is a single thing, maybe making potable water widely available and vaccinations, that has contributed to the advent of Modern Society more than agriculture. Foraging maybe a cute thing for the silver spoon crowds made popular by the guys at Noma/Rene Redzepi (I personally met some of the creative Team when they ate at our restaurant last year) but not only would it never scale, but you'd be screwed for anything to eat for 3-5 months out of the year in most of the World. And with the impact of climate change I doubt you'd last very long. Organic isn't a panacea, its a re-framing of the relationship one has with their food and by extension ourselves as so many diseases are borne from what has been a literally toxic and hostile relationship. I hope we get to see an analysis of Global COVID deaths in relation to heart disease, diabetes as well as a study of them as contributors to those deaths considered COVID related.
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jonplackett 6y ago
So is it the soil or the new fast-growing varieties that are the problem? They talk about both issues interchangeably. And is the supermarket veg only? Most of that is selected to travel and display well rather than for nutrition and taste. What about organic? What about local farmed produce? There’s a lot of stats here but it’s light on specifics that would help us make choices that would actually help.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Buy seasonal food that is actually grown seasonally (just because you bought a tomato in the summer doesn’t mean it was actually grown any differently). Buy heirloom varieties. Organic isn’t a magic word that means better, and as it has become popular and more industrialized, it means less. There are plenty of questionably healthy practices which count as “organic”. Something being grown nearby doesn’t make it automatically any better. Finding local producers that can deliver seasonal heirloom varieties would be maximizing your chances. Growing your own getting your seed from somewhere like the seed savers exchange would have a bit better chances. https://www.seedsavers.org/ https://www.seedsavers.org/
afrojack123 6y ago
Yes. This is so true. Panera bread has found a way to make food taste better and fresh without actually being more nutritious.
zeristor 6y ago
Are there any tasty hydroponic harvests? Hydroponics seems to focus on salads, and herbs since they grow quicker. I have not heard of many hydroponic vegetables.
- Pyramus 6y ago
  FYI the majority of tomatoes grown in temperate Europe (most notably the Netherlands) is grown hydroponically in a substrate like stone wool. Search for "dutch tomatoe greenhouse" or the like, it is quite impressive from a technical perspective. According to a German tomatoe farmer also in southern European countries like Italy and Spain more and more tomatoes are grown in stone wool due to a deterioration of soils.
- ourlordcaffeine 6y ago
  I grow hydroponic tomatoes for fun and they taste much better than supermarket tomatoes. It's probably to do with letting them ripen on the plant and build up their sugar content rather than anything to do with growing technique
colechristensen 6y ago
There’s a cognitive bias where if you tell a certain kind of person a negative story about an environmental issue they will believe it, regardless of its content. If you read the article, none of the quoted sources say anything about depleted soil. It says it in the title, that’s it. Bait. What it actually says is plant breeding and other agricultural practices caused the nutritional decline. You breed plants for storage, transport, and yield, this is what you get. Large woody or watery plants that don’t taste as good and are diluted. Fruits picked unripe and enormous vegetables that stay fresh for weeks means less value. It doesn’t seem to have much at all to do with the soil quality going down over decades and more to do with industrial food distribution.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  Yeah, that was my first thought. The food is tasteless and less nutritious because of the cultivars the farmer chose, not soil quality.
- deleted 6y ago
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- UweSchmidt 6y ago
  On the other hand many plants aren't even getting in contact with soil any more and just get some liquid fertilizer in a greenhouse. That's the other cognitive bias: We still imagine old school farming, animals walking around the farm, happy farmers working outside. Advertisement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag hide the grim reality.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    Very few food crops are grown in hydroponics, and when they are, it's quite likely they have higher nutrition content than their conventional commercial crop counterparts. As one of the generational old school farmers in exile, I'm quite aware of how food is produced. Most of it that you eat in unpleasant industrial settings but not the hydroponic greenhouses you imagine, and if not, in a way that exploits extremely poorly compensated labourers to do things machines haven't been perfected for yet.
aaron695 6y ago
> Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? The essence of the article is garbage. But that's SciFi American I guess. It's pretty incoherent. The reason IQs are rising across the world, including recently in the West, is in part better nutrients in young people and mothers. Your grandparents could only buy things in season, it cost money for usual vegetables other than potato and carrots, frozen foods are of course great and fortification was ok back then, but it's better these days. Who cares if carrots and potatoes had some better nutrients, if it's all you ever eat, that's not good. I'd also like to test some old canned foods compared to today's foods. I don't fully trust old data being accurate especially retold in biased stories like this.
dawidw 6y ago
That's why I take supplements on daily basis. Once a year I do health check and add supplements till their level is correct. Besides there is problem with GMO and pesticides. Later on we all have to pay for that with our health. Ideally would be to have own food from own farm where you decide and control how to treat vegetables.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Why would genetic modification to add resistance to a pest or herbicide have anything to do with nutrition?
  - dawidw 6y ago
    Due to GMO you have vegetable much bigger but with the same amount of vitamins and minerals. So, for example, if new generation fruit is 20% bigger, you're lacking that amount of nutrition in your diet. And pesticides: if there were healthy for our bodies, we would eat them for our advantages, wouldn't we?
  - 3131s 6y ago
    With more resistance to pesticides and herbicides, farmers can add more of these substances to plants, and that will incidentally kill other lifeforms in the soil ecosystem that affect the nutritional content of the soil.
    - colechristensen 6y ago
      Resistance to pests, not pesticides. This makes producers use fewer or no pesticides, not more. A naturally occuring pest resistance gene will be copied from one organism to the crop in question. And the herbicide resistance usually allows for the usage of safer herbicides.
      - dawidw 6y ago
        > This makes producers use [...] no pesticides Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides? Another interesting question: is it possible to buy anywhere (even on the Internet) non-GMO corn? You know, the original one, created by nature which were possible to have 200 years ago?
sradman 6y ago
This can be both true and irrelevant at the same time. The focus should be on the key nutrients for each food, that is, those food/nutrient pairs that significantly contribute to the required daily values, especially nutrients that the general population is deficient in. I think the general trend in western nations is a decline in nutrient deficiencies despite modern agriculture practices.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  The decline of deficiencies has a lot to do with fortifying processed foods with various nutrients, and generally food being cheap enough that poverty is more associated with obesity than starvation.
  - kilotaras 6y ago
    Obesity and nutrients deficiency aren't mutually exclusive. e.g. "Studies have shown that many people with obesity have inadequate intake of iron, calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, folate and vitamins A and B12, likely as a result of poor diet quality" [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41366-018-0143-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41366-018-0143-9
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
Yes and for multiple reasons: 1) Soil depletion - well documented for decades 2) Increased CO2 in the atmosphere https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2018.00924/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2018.00924... 3) Companies are getting "better" at maximizing crop production by weight 4) Very lax regulations
cultofmetatron 6y ago
I realized when I started traveling extensively how tasteless the food is. In thailand I just assumed they just knew how to better prepare the ingredients. Then I went to greece and had a proper greek salad. If you don't think you like greek salad, Let me tell you. A Greek salad is only going to taste good in greece. Why? because all the ingredients that make up a greek salad are local and in season around the same time. Its not a complex salad and stands entirely on the strength of the produce that makes up its parts. In greece I found it bursting with flavor. The flavors were sublime with tomatoes rich in umami intermingling with spicy olive oil and savory farmer's cheese. Any version you get in America is going to be a pale insult, In Ukraine, I gorged myself on blueberries. They tasted just like the ones I used to eat from a wild bush near my childhood house. I'm currently in Turkey. Same story, grilled vegetables and kabaab give me far mroe satisfaction. the produce is JUST more filling, and satisfying. American produce SUCKS.
- poisonarena 6y ago
  I don't know how much could be placebo effect. I have been in Ukraine for a few months and I am currently in Turkey as well, and it is entirely possible to buy gross/unripe/tasteless produce here, and especially Ukraine. I think you might be experiencing the 'grass is always greener' effect because there is definitely good produce if you know where to find it all over the United States, which is a humongous nation.
  - cultofmetatron 6y ago
    I was in kyiv and lviv. To be fair, I stayed in the more affluent areas so I'm sure I got access to the higher quality stuff. still, even in the restaurants I noticed a marked increase in quality when it came to salads.
  - OneGuy123 6y ago
    Might depend on which part of the year you are there: in-season vs imported foods.
- dawidw 6y ago
  > American produce SUCKS. How come? What there is Monsanto for?
hoka-one-one 6y ago
I think intermittent fasting might reduce one's need for some nutrients. Read up on autophagy. Really interesting stuff.
durnygbur 6y ago
The large retail chains in Europe sell what I call porn-fruits and porn-vegetables. Especially places like EDEKA, REWE, Kaufland in Germany. Strawberries, berries, raspberries, carrots, tomatoes, cucumbers, salads, apples, pears, eggplants, etc. - shiny (do they wax them?), large, unified size, saturated color. Barely any taste, all watery. Grown in perfectly artificial industrial greenhouses. Not a trace of soil on them, not a trace of imperfections. This is not how fruits and vegetables bought directly from a farmer on a market look and taste like.
- technics256 6y ago
  What's your favorite place to buy in Germany?
  - artisinalbread 6y ago
    Not the main commentator, I think farmers market or the weekly markets that happen in few places in cities are good and depending on when they have been imported asian/turkish stores can have fresh veggies(debatable), or if you are in a small town you could actually have a small local market nearby.
  - xaedes 6y ago
    "Deutsche Piccolo" tomatoes from Kaufland taste quite good. They are also the most expensive ones from there. But honestly the cheaper ones aren't worth their money, might as well buy colored water.
- sgt101 6y ago
  It's worse! In fact they get these perfect ones by throwing away the imperfects. You can but a lot of fruit and veg for animal feed; marked grade B or C at a fraction of the grade A price - because they are blemished or ugly.
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  That's likely not due to how they are grown but the genetics of the plant. If you took the seeds for one of them and grew it in your garden with sunshine and birdsong it would still look and taste the same. That's because good looking produce sells better than good tasting one, so that's how commercial plants are bred: for transportation and looks instead of taste.
JSavageOne 6y ago
I thought I didn't like tomatoes until I came here to Serbia. So much flavor. Though this only applies when they're in season (eg. in summer) - currently they're out of season so they're selling the plastic ones again I was exposed to in the U.S.
chukye 6y ago
well, that's why I only eat meat :)
appplemac 6y ago
Are there any similar studies that compared modern organically farmed vegetables or fruits with the 1950s versions?
bttrfl 6y ago
There's no scientific basis for my choice, but I have almost entirely stopped eating seasonal produce out of a season. I eat tomatoes in the summer and early autumn and then I patiently wait months to eat them again. When the winter comes I switch to vegetables that I haven't eaten at all or in limited amount for past half a year - beetroot, cabbage, carrot and more. I also eat all kinds of quality fermented, processed and dried stuff. It made me fell in love with vegetables and fruits and whatever the season I just can't wait when the next starts. I also think this approach is more sustainable.
- roland35 6y ago
  This method definitely keeps things fresh (no pun intended)! My kids are really good about eating fresh produce but I've noticed that they also appreciate rotating new things in every few weeks/months.
  - bttrfl 6y ago
    Summer/autumn is easy - you can feed your kids new things every day. Jars (and cans) will help you go through winter/spring. I buy mine from the same folks I buy fresh vegies/fruits from.
- smichel17 6y ago
  Doesn't need a scientific basis -- in-season produce just tastes better. For some it's not such a big difference but for others (tomatoes!) you might as well be eating a different plant.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Tomatoes strike me as something that more people should grow at home, where space permits. There seems to be a bigger delta in quality for tomatoes than most other produce when picked fresh, and they’re not the kind of vegetable that most of us go through a huge amount of[0]. Also, they don’t consume a huge amount of space; even a planter on the porch can produce a decent yearly crop. 0: Except for soups, but for that kind of application canned tomatoes are best, since they’re canned when fresh rather than being picked before ripening to survive shipping.
pelasaco 6y ago
Reading the article, I ask myself how it looks in Germany. We rotate the soil usage, letting it "rest" for a season. I'm definitely sure that the Vegetables and Fruits now are much better/healthier than in the communist period (GDR).
FreekNortier 6y ago
I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you. The argument that it doesn't scale negates the majority of Agriculture's 10K+ year history. This modern system of chemically driven commodification of food is rather new (post WWII). Granted the World's population is larger than what it was back then, which introduces challenges, but the truth is we are facing disease due to the over-consumption of the 'abundance' more than anything else in the West, and the East is following as well. While I agree the current monetary incentives are not aligned for its success, and the business model that had proven profitable for small scale, local and often organic farms working for the past ~15 years has been essentially curtailed due to COVID, as so many restaurants are limited in capacity or shut down altogether, it is not beyond the realm of possibility to transition how we view Agriculture and Food as a whole. I think this re-calibration is necessary for the challneges we face as Species on Earth moving forward and sincerely believe COVID may be the the disruption we needed to question the 'business as usual' model. There is a great deal of efficacy to the theory/practice that soil remediation to be an effective deterrent in reducing atmospheric CO2 levels; at its core the way Biodynamics has operated since its inception when it was introduced to the nobility in Austria since WWI is nothing more than a distillation of viable practices that follow sound microbiology methods. It may be attached to a great deal esoteric 'woo' but once you see past what is essentially Marketing what you have is the collective synthesis of 10,000+ of trial and error in Man's relationship and the Stewardship we've had with the Nature. That much cannot be disputed. People not entirely obsessed with this topic forget that a food supply not dependent on inputs like artificial fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides aren't that old and that some countries never adopted it due to the costs associated. Explaining the significance of this topic without a great deal of context is entirely daunting but, large concentrated populations in former Empires didn't suffer because their wasn't enough BT corn to feed its cattle, and we would be remiss to forget that much. Detroit's story with urban farming and the culture it brought back with it is a really amazing story that proves that something deemed not 'commercially viable' is not as important as the resilience of a community and a People if the will exists. > So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you. 'Feed' is questionable, but what it clearly does is introduces a myriad of chemicals into your body that can and has cause(d) other health issues, all while still disappointing your palate.
xwdv 6y ago
I have a hard time figuring out the point of vegetables. They are so low calorie that I’d have to eat a massive amount of them to have them contribute any significant amount to a meal, more than what is really practical. They are not really an efficient source of protein, carbs or fats the way lean meat, grains and beans and nuts are. So what’s the point? Vitamins and minerals?
- fsflover 6y ago
  https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/why-5-a-day/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/why-5-a-day/
  - xwdv 6y ago
    This does a piss poor job of explaining why they should be eaten. The main points are: Vitamins and minerals (which you can still find in non-vegetables or supplements) Fiber (which you can get from whole grains) Prevents heart diseases (which is not exclusive to vegetables) Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) Taste good? (there are tastier foods...) I’m still not seeing the point or hassle of vegetables. If you don’t even cook them right you can destroy the vitamins which are the primary benefit. Not to mention eating the quantity required to reach recommended levels is probably not sustainable. For someone that doesn’t like eating and cooking, vegetables are a logistical nightmare, a little cup of broccoli only provides like 30 calories and just fills your stomach with useless fiber that makes it a struggle to eat other more efficient nutrient dense foods. I feel like vegetables are more for spicing up a dish than as a primary source of nutrition.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      > fills your stomach with useless fiber https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/fiber/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/f... > Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you...
BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago
The article is from 2011. The research it cites is from 1999. The data that the research used is from 1997.
BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago
Vegs are bred so that parasites don't eat them while they grow and bacteria don't eat them while they lay on the shelf. If neither parasites nor bacteria like them, why would humans?
- Angostura 6y ago
  And this explains why humans will never eat spicy food, nor drink coffee.
bregma 6y ago
Food. Eat it. Not too much. There are plenty of other first world problems to spend your time worrying about.
TaupeRanger 6y ago
This kind of tripe is why nutrition epidemiology is basically the laughing stock of modern science. First of all, the article is almost 10 years old and references data from 1999 at the latest. But most importantly, it uses common nutrition weasel words like "healthy" and "good for you", which are not supported (in fact, CAN'T be supported) by the study. It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this supermarket carrot" to "you will get fewer diseases and/or live longer or better if you eat carrots from soil 100 years ago". The former is a claim about vitamin content. Easy to measure and write a paper about. It is another thing entirely, and totally outside the scope of a paper about mineral/vitamin content, to claim that eating modern carrots actually results in worse health. That claim is (fortunately for "nutritionists" and "functional nutrition" people) never actually backed up by any science whatsoever. It's the same with grass fed beef and all the other "organic" stuff - they are never actually connected to better health outcomes and they never live up to the wild claims made by journalists and bloggers.
- montjoy 6y ago
  Old data doesn’t make it invalid. I think it’s pretty reasonable to assume soil with more nutrients in it results in food with more nutrients in it (at least within a reasonable set of values). I think it’s also worth checking that food that is modified for growth and resistance factors is still as “nutritious” as before. Do you have any references to your claim that organic food does/does not change health outcomes?
- rbecker 6y ago
  > It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this supermarket carrot" to "you will get fewer diseases and/or live longer or better if you eat carrots from soil 100 years ago". If only there was some kind of study linking vitamin [1] and protein intake [2] to health [3]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin#Deficient_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin#Deficient_intake [2] https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/protein.html https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/high-intake-of-vitamins-a-e-and-d-linked-to-fewer-respiratory-illnesses-says-study-b1390967.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/high-intake-of-vit...
whoomp12342 6y ago
I am sufficiently confused. How does not using pesticides restore minerals? I don't doubt that soil erosion is a real thing, thats why famrers use cover crops and tilling, but where does said nutrients come from??
- fbelzile 6y ago
  Organic farming involves more crops that die from pests. I presume those crops/dead pests decompose and replenish the soil with more nutrients for the next season.
- BostonEnginerd 6y ago
  I've read that pesticide use impacts the types of fungus, bacteria and other critters in the dirt. I understand that they can break down components of the dirt and convert the minerals into more available forms for the plants.
throwawaymanbot 6y ago
Yes. Engineered for fast growth, not for nutrition.
fbelzile 6y ago
If you're fortunate enough to live near a farmer's market, consider going there first to get your produce and meats. Then go to the grocery store to fill in what you couldn't find there. Not only are you going to be helping the local economy, you'll be getting more nutritious food that tastes better and is usually better for the environment. Do a little research on the farm and especially support the ones that practice bio-dynamic farming. It only takes 5 minutes and can have a big impact on the earth.
- spodek 6y ago
  If you don't live near a farmers market, consider helping organize to start one. Do not accept the situation handed to you. You will find others who want fresher produce, to help their neighbors, and all the benefits of community. The farmers markets others others live near didn't pop out of nowhere. They took time and energy. They return far more value.
ajay-b 6y ago
I’m more curious if genetic engineering has led to more nutritious outcomes, or less. It’s almost like McDonald’s, just because you build more McDonald’s does it mean that food is any better
taeric 6y ago
It is odd. I cannot and do not claim things are not different. But, I always find tomato to be an odd example that everyone goes to. I was taught that these were not even eaten until the Americas. Is that not the case? More, I have never liked them. One of my children, though, couldn't be happier than with a bucket of them. Just eats them straight like an apple. How much of what people taste is novelty and affected by age?

195 points by 3131s 6y ago

Well, who here buys their vegetables based on nutrition? Who even knows how nutritious their particular vegetables are (probably not if you have a lab)? Companies optimize for what customers will pay for, and everything else falls by the wayside.

taneq 6y ago
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. Always.
camhart 6y ago
Strawberries in the USA are huge. Sometimes they remind me of an Apple. Go to Denmark--they're small but packed full of flavor. I would much rather have the smaller ones. I wonder if the large, crisp, apple-esc strawberries really sell better. They're certainly bigger.
- markdown 6y ago
  I feel the same about hydroponically grown tomatoes. They're just bigs bags of barely flavoured water.
  - riffraff 6y ago
    AFAIU that depends on the nutrients added to the water. You could have good tasting hydroponically grown tomatoes, but nobody cares.
- Thlom 6y ago
  Best strawberries in the world are found in a small valley on the west coast of Norway where the combination of late summer, cool nights and long summer days with lots of sunlight makes for a long ripening process and perfect strawberries.
  - fogihujy 6y ago
    Finnish strawberries are clearly superior! ;) Jokes aside, my personal experience is that strawberries grown in some grandmother's garden in a Nordic country, including Denmark, will beat the mass-produced stuff in the stores when it comes to taste. I can't imagine the same wouldn't apply to Canadian or Russian strawberries, grown under similar conditions, as well.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  In Paris in 1985 (only time I've been there) you could buy massive strawberries from street stalls by the kilo, the size of a small apple, cheap, and super-delicious. I don't know where they came from or why I've never seen them here in Australia. Apart from that, I had delicious small homegrown ones as a kid, and the occasional almost or totally tasteless medium-sized ones from shops ever since. I always wonder how it feels to be a farmer growing totally tasteless strawberries for a living.
  - nobodyandproud 6y ago
    > I always wonder how it feels to be a farmer growing totally tasteless strawberries for a living. I imagine it’s a bland but fruitful experience.
- tzot 6y ago
  I remember a joke from my childhood, where an American tourist is browsing a local farmer's market commenting how small everything is compared to American produce, so when the tourist sees watermelons and asks “and what are these?”, the annoyed vendor just says “oh, they're just peas”.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  > Strawberries in the USA are huge Plant hormones added
stinos 6y ago
Companies optimize for what customers will pay for Could be, but arent't there other mechanisms? Like companies optimizing for profit, then using advertisement to lure customers in paying for it?
taurath 6y ago
In the US, companies optimize for what they can industrialize and ship out to an entire country regardless of locality. And customers want is changing pretty quickly. But for me, the “standard” grocery store produce aisle hasn’t changed much at all in the last few decades - mostly just organics that again are optimized for national supply chains and away from taste.
kleiba 6y ago
In a way, I would say I do - but not to a point where I buy completely untasty stuff just for the nutritional value. But I love it when I see, say, a beautiful cauliflower that looks fresh and tasty not only because I'm looking forward to the pleasure of tasting it but also because somewhere in the back of my head something tells me "that's good stuff". However, of course I'm just assuming that something is actually nutritious. You're right that I don't actually know that, and that kinda is the point of the article, right? We have all been taught that veggies are good for you, bla bla bla, but in the light of the article you can now at least wonder to what degree that is still as true as it was some years ago.
trevyn 6y ago
>Well, who here buys their vegetables based on nutrition? I would never buy vegetables if they weren’t important for nutrition.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Yes, but can you determine the nutritional differences between carrot 1 and carrot 2?
  - trevyn 6y ago
    I’m not sure anyone can, even with a lab. I think the metabolic and behavioral impact of many plant molecules is completely unclear at this point. We know what simple micronutrients are necessary to prevent obvious deficiency disorders, and you can take those in a pill today, but there are many more subtle disorders. There’s a reason doctors suggest fresh fruits and vegetables, instead of inventing a multivitamin and psyllium husk supplement to replace vegetables.
BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago
I always smell tomatoes in the supermarket. People hate me.

ctoth 6y ago

See also [0] which seems to argue convincingly against this. [0] Mineral nutrient composition of vegetables, fruits and grains: The context of reports of apparent historical declines https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889157516302113 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915751...

gregwebs 6y ago
There seems to be some common ground (even if soil is in dispute!) on high yield dilution though. The abstract states: Contemporaneous analyses of modern versus old crop varieties grown side-by-side, and archived samples, show lower mineral concentrations in varieties bred for higher yields where increased carbohydrate is not accompanied by proportional increases in minerals – a “dilution effect”.
taurath 6y ago
> Comparisons with matching archived soil samples show soil mineral content has not declined in locations cultivated intensively with various fertilizer treatments. So not that depleted soils don’t deplete vegetables, but the soils they found were not depleted. I wonder if they were focused on the same soils

punnerud 6y ago

Blueberries that taste the same but are transparent in the middle. Tomatoes that tase water. Cucumber that look great and almost tasteless. You don't know what you are missing if you have never tasted the "real" deal.

kleiba 6y ago
Sure, but this is not about taste in the first place, it's about the nutritional value of your produce. After all, eating fulfills more than one purpose.
- stinos 6y ago
  Wouldn't be surprised if there's a relation between taste and nutritional value though.
  - kleiba 6y ago
    Well, taste is subjective - nutritional value less so.
    - stinos 6y ago
      True, but that's orthogonal. You could still set up double-blind studies comparing taste, I think.
      - kleiba 6y ago
        Of course, if you average subjectivity out, it's not longer there. But what's the point?
    - coldtea 6y ago
      The kind of taste changes we're talking about here are not subjective though. E.g. they're not about "I like it more or less" but e.g. about the taste changing from sweeter to less sweet. For example tomatoes (it's covered in a few books on the subject) have lost a large part of their sugar content after the 80s due to mass market techniques and genes that yield more and less quickly riping ones, but of lower taste.

justinbaker84 6y ago

TLDR: Yes.

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kleiba 6y ago

I would argue that it's less relevant whether produce has become less nutritious than in previous years, but that the more relevant question is whether it is still nutritious enough. There's not point in having excess vitamins, say, if most of it will not even be absorbed by your body. That said, a second question is where the current trend is going to lead then. If we are on a steady decline in nutritiousness of our produce what is the projection for 50 years from now?

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Lucasoato 6y ago

In Italy it's happening the same phenomenon. Big supermarkets are selling bigger tasteless fruits and vegetables, while little shops keep selling the little nutritious version.

perfunctory 6y ago

On a related note - "High CO2 Makes Crops Less Nutritious" https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/5/140507-crops-nutrition-climate-change-carbon-dioxide-science/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/5/140507-crops-...

londons_explore 6y ago
If you want to grow crops in a low CO2 environment, just grow them in a greenhouse with near zero ventilation. The CO2 levels in the greenhouse will drop rapidly, and the plants will grow much slower. Don't add mulch or fresh topsoil, because that gives off a lot of carbon, especially when disturbed.

mindwok 6y ago

Do pesticides and herbicides reduce soil quality? The article says avoiding them is beneficial but it's not clear why that is.

philprx 6y ago
Well it kills some living organism. These don't develop. It has a result on environnement including soil. Now it's it measurable everywhere? No. There are a couple research papers and video documentaries that compare on the same area, sometime same hill, the difference in soil: one was marking as the only difference was treatment or zero treatment. Difference was around 5 inches / 15 cm higher soil in non treated parcel... Now this is exactly the kind of question where everyone is going to find examples that suit their personal view, even with studies backing their point. It so much depends on region and soil, treatment, measurability of molecule effects etc...
colechristensen 6y ago
Soil is alive, and plants have various direct and indirect symbiotic relationships with things in the soil. Application and especially misapplication of various treatments (add fertilizer and fungicides to your list) can easily do significant harm to the soil ecology, which in turn causes get need for more or more intense treatments. The easy answer is “never” the better answer is “smarter”.
OneGuy123 6y ago
Yes
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  How

feralimal 6y ago

Well, colour me shocked!! Modern farming doesn't produce as nutritious fruit and vegetables as that of the past. (Where everything was organic, and the land was managed sensibly.) Maybe we need to 'fortify' our veg, by adding calcium (chalk), and iron (fine iron filings) to it!

3131s 6y ago
Fortifying plants by adding B12 to the soil is known to work. We absolutely should look into it.
riffraff 6y ago
> Where everything was organic, and the land was managed sensibly my father, and everyone else in my home town, had his vegetable garden. It was not "organic growth", not even in the insane legal sense where giving bordeaux mixture[0] is considered organic farming. His stuff still tasted great, because it's not "inorganic" that make things tasteless, it's specific industrial production and distribution processes. [0] some toxic pollutant heavy metal compounds are 100% acceptable in organic farming, because they have been used for so long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_mixture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_mixture
- feralimal 6y ago
  I agree. I actually don't think organic is as good as whatever natural methods were used. I would prefer wild or food grown on less 'managed' land - that would be the gold standard for me.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > I agree. I actually don't think organic is as good as whatever natural methods were used. I would prefer wild or food grown on less 'managed' land - that would be the gold standard for me. Then you'd starve on your golden standard, and probably revert to the 30 year life expectancy most of Humanity had prior to the advent of agriculture. Collectively as a Species I don't think there is a single thing, maybe making potable water widely available and vaccinations, that has contributed to the advent of Modern Society more than agriculture. Foraging maybe a cute thing for the silver spoon crowds made popular by the guys at Noma/Rene Redzepi (I personally met some of the creative Team when they ate at our restaurant last year) but not only would it never scale, but you'd be screwed for anything to eat for 3-5 months out of the year in most of the World. And with the impact of climate change I doubt you'd last very long. Organic isn't a panacea, its a re-framing of the relationship one has with their food and by extension ourselves as so many diseases are borne from what has been a literally toxic and hostile relationship. I hope we get to see an analysis of Global COVID deaths in relation to heart disease, diabetes as well as a study of them as contributors to those deaths considered COVID related.

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jonplackett 6y ago

So is it the soil or the new fast-growing varieties that are the problem? They talk about both issues interchangeably. And is the supermarket veg only? Most of that is selected to travel and display well rather than for nutrition and taste. What about organic? What about local farmed produce? There’s a lot of stats here but it’s light on specifics that would help us make choices that would actually help.

colechristensen 6y ago
Buy seasonal food that is actually grown seasonally (just because you bought a tomato in the summer doesn’t mean it was actually grown any differently). Buy heirloom varieties. Organic isn’t a magic word that means better, and as it has become popular and more industrialized, it means less. There are plenty of questionably healthy practices which count as “organic”. Something being grown nearby doesn’t make it automatically any better. Finding local producers that can deliver seasonal heirloom varieties would be maximizing your chances. Growing your own getting your seed from somewhere like the seed savers exchange would have a bit better chances. https://www.seedsavers.org/ https://www.seedsavers.org/

afrojack123 6y ago

Yes. This is so true. Panera bread has found a way to make food taste better and fresh without actually being more nutritious.

zeristor 6y ago

Are there any tasty hydroponic harvests? Hydroponics seems to focus on salads, and herbs since they grow quicker. I have not heard of many hydroponic vegetables.

Pyramus 6y ago
FYI the majority of tomatoes grown in temperate Europe (most notably the Netherlands) is grown hydroponically in a substrate like stone wool. Search for "dutch tomatoe greenhouse" or the like, it is quite impressive from a technical perspective. According to a German tomatoe farmer also in southern European countries like Italy and Spain more and more tomatoes are grown in stone wool due to a deterioration of soils.
ourlordcaffeine 6y ago
I grow hydroponic tomatoes for fun and they taste much better than supermarket tomatoes. It's probably to do with letting them ripen on the plant and build up their sugar content rather than anything to do with growing technique

colechristensen 6y ago

There’s a cognitive bias where if you tell a certain kind of person a negative story about an environmental issue they will believe it, regardless of its content. If you read the article, none of the quoted sources say anything about depleted soil. It says it in the title, that’s it. Bait. What it actually says is plant breeding and other agricultural practices caused the nutritional decline. You breed plants for storage, transport, and yield, this is what you get. Large woody or watery plants that don’t taste as good and are diluted. Fruits picked unripe and enormous vegetables that stay fresh for weeks means less value. It doesn’t seem to have much at all to do with the soil quality going down over decades and more to do with industrial food distribution.

Ensorceled 6y ago
Yeah, that was my first thought. The food is tasteless and less nutritious because of the cultivars the farmer chose, not soil quality.
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UweSchmidt 6y ago
On the other hand many plants aren't even getting in contact with soil any more and just get some liquid fertilizer in a greenhouse. That's the other cognitive bias: We still imagine old school farming, animals walking around the farm, happy farmers working outside. Advertisement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag hide the grim reality.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Very few food crops are grown in hydroponics, and when they are, it's quite likely they have higher nutrition content than their conventional commercial crop counterparts. As one of the generational old school farmers in exile, I'm quite aware of how food is produced. Most of it that you eat in unpleasant industrial settings but not the hydroponic greenhouses you imagine, and if not, in a way that exploits extremely poorly compensated labourers to do things machines haven't been perfected for yet.

aaron695 6y ago

> Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? The essence of the article is garbage. But that's SciFi American I guess. It's pretty incoherent. The reason IQs are rising across the world, including recently in the West, is in part better nutrients in young people and mothers. Your grandparents could only buy things in season, it cost money for usual vegetables other than potato and carrots, frozen foods are of course great and fortification was ok back then, but it's better these days. Who cares if carrots and potatoes had some better nutrients, if it's all you ever eat, that's not good. I'd also like to test some old canned foods compared to today's foods. I don't fully trust old data being accurate especially retold in biased stories like this.

dawidw 6y ago

That's why I take supplements on daily basis. Once a year I do health check and add supplements till their level is correct. Besides there is problem with GMO and pesticides. Later on we all have to pay for that with our health. Ideally would be to have own food from own farm where you decide and control how to treat vegetables.

colechristensen 6y ago
Why would genetic modification to add resistance to a pest or herbicide have anything to do with nutrition?
- dawidw 6y ago
  Due to GMO you have vegetable much bigger but with the same amount of vitamins and minerals. So, for example, if new generation fruit is 20% bigger, you're lacking that amount of nutrition in your diet. And pesticides: if there were healthy for our bodies, we would eat them for our advantages, wouldn't we?
- 3131s 6y ago
  With more resistance to pesticides and herbicides, farmers can add more of these substances to plants, and that will incidentally kill other lifeforms in the soil ecosystem that affect the nutritional content of the soil.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    Resistance to pests, not pesticides. This makes producers use fewer or no pesticides, not more. A naturally occuring pest resistance gene will be copied from one organism to the crop in question. And the herbicide resistance usually allows for the usage of safer herbicides.
    - dawidw 6y ago
      > This makes producers use [...] no pesticides Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides? Another interesting question: is it possible to buy anywhere (even on the Internet) non-GMO corn? You know, the original one, created by nature which were possible to have 200 years ago?

sradman 6y ago

This can be both true and irrelevant at the same time. The focus should be on the key nutrients for each food, that is, those food/nutrient pairs that significantly contribute to the required daily values, especially nutrients that the general population is deficient in. I think the general trend in western nations is a decline in nutrient deficiencies despite modern agriculture practices.

colechristensen 6y ago
The decline of deficiencies has a lot to do with fortifying processed foods with various nutrients, and generally food being cheap enough that poverty is more associated with obesity than starvation.
- kilotaras 6y ago
  Obesity and nutrients deficiency aren't mutually exclusive. e.g. "Studies have shown that many people with obesity have inadequate intake of iron, calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, folate and vitamins A and B12, likely as a result of poor diet quality" [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41366-018-0143-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41366-018-0143-9

eeZah7Ux 6y ago

Yes and for multiple reasons: 1) Soil depletion - well documented for decades 2) Increased CO2 in the atmosphere https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2018.00924/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2018.00924... 3) Companies are getting "better" at maximizing crop production by weight 4) Very lax regulations

cultofmetatron 6y ago

I realized when I started traveling extensively how tasteless the food is. In thailand I just assumed they just knew how to better prepare the ingredients. Then I went to greece and had a proper greek salad. If you don't think you like greek salad, Let me tell you. A Greek salad is only going to taste good in greece. Why? because all the ingredients that make up a greek salad are local and in season around the same time. Its not a complex salad and stands entirely on the strength of the produce that makes up its parts. In greece I found it bursting with flavor. The flavors were sublime with tomatoes rich in umami intermingling with spicy olive oil and savory farmer's cheese. Any version you get in America is going to be a pale insult, In Ukraine, I gorged myself on blueberries. They tasted just like the ones I used to eat from a wild bush near my childhood house. I'm currently in Turkey. Same story, grilled vegetables and kabaab give me far mroe satisfaction. the produce is JUST more filling, and satisfying. American produce SUCKS.

poisonarena 6y ago
I don't know how much could be placebo effect. I have been in Ukraine for a few months and I am currently in Turkey as well, and it is entirely possible to buy gross/unripe/tasteless produce here, and especially Ukraine. I think you might be experiencing the 'grass is always greener' effect because there is definitely good produce if you know where to find it all over the United States, which is a humongous nation.
- cultofmetatron 6y ago
  I was in kyiv and lviv. To be fair, I stayed in the more affluent areas so I'm sure I got access to the higher quality stuff. still, even in the restaurants I noticed a marked increase in quality when it came to salads.
- OneGuy123 6y ago
  Might depend on which part of the year you are there: in-season vs imported foods.
dawidw 6y ago
> American produce SUCKS. How come? What there is Monsanto for?

hoka-one-one 6y ago

I think intermittent fasting might reduce one's need for some nutrients. Read up on autophagy. Really interesting stuff.

durnygbur 6y ago

The large retail chains in Europe sell what I call porn-fruits and porn-vegetables. Especially places like EDEKA, REWE, Kaufland in Germany. Strawberries, berries, raspberries, carrots, tomatoes, cucumbers, salads, apples, pears, eggplants, etc. - shiny (do they wax them?), large, unified size, saturated color. Barely any taste, all watery. Grown in perfectly artificial industrial greenhouses. Not a trace of soil on them, not a trace of imperfections. This is not how fruits and vegetables bought directly from a farmer on a market look and taste like.

technics256 6y ago
What's your favorite place to buy in Germany?
- artisinalbread 6y ago
  Not the main commentator, I think farmers market or the weekly markets that happen in few places in cities are good and depending on when they have been imported asian/turkish stores can have fresh veggies(debatable), or if you are in a small town you could actually have a small local market nearby.
- xaedes 6y ago
  "Deutsche Piccolo" tomatoes from Kaufland taste quite good. They are also the most expensive ones from there. But honestly the cheaper ones aren't worth their money, might as well buy colored water.
sgt101 6y ago
It's worse! In fact they get these perfect ones by throwing away the imperfects. You can but a lot of fruit and veg for animal feed; marked grade B or C at a fraction of the grade A price - because they are blemished or ugly.
0-_-0 6y ago
That's likely not due to how they are grown but the genetics of the plant. If you took the seeds for one of them and grew it in your garden with sunshine and birdsong it would still look and taste the same. That's because good looking produce sells better than good tasting one, so that's how commercial plants are bred: for transportation and looks instead of taste.

JSavageOne 6y ago

I thought I didn't like tomatoes until I came here to Serbia. So much flavor. Though this only applies when they're in season (eg. in summer) - currently they're out of season so they're selling the plastic ones again I was exposed to in the U.S.

chukye 6y ago

well, that's why I only eat meat :)

appplemac 6y ago

Are there any similar studies that compared modern organically farmed vegetables or fruits with the 1950s versions?

bttrfl 6y ago

There's no scientific basis for my choice, but I have almost entirely stopped eating seasonal produce out of a season. I eat tomatoes in the summer and early autumn and then I patiently wait months to eat them again. When the winter comes I switch to vegetables that I haven't eaten at all or in limited amount for past half a year - beetroot, cabbage, carrot and more. I also eat all kinds of quality fermented, processed and dried stuff. It made me fell in love with vegetables and fruits and whatever the season I just can't wait when the next starts. I also think this approach is more sustainable.

roland35 6y ago
This method definitely keeps things fresh (no pun intended)! My kids are really good about eating fresh produce but I've noticed that they also appreciate rotating new things in every few weeks/months.
- bttrfl 6y ago
  Summer/autumn is easy - you can feed your kids new things every day. Jars (and cans) will help you go through winter/spring. I buy mine from the same folks I buy fresh vegies/fruits from.
smichel17 6y ago
Doesn't need a scientific basis -- in-season produce just tastes better. For some it's not such a big difference but for others (tomatoes!) you might as well be eating a different plant.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Tomatoes strike me as something that more people should grow at home, where space permits. There seems to be a bigger delta in quality for tomatoes than most other produce when picked fresh, and they’re not the kind of vegetable that most of us go through a huge amount of[0]. Also, they don’t consume a huge amount of space; even a planter on the porch can produce a decent yearly crop. 0: Except for soups, but for that kind of application canned tomatoes are best, since they’re canned when fresh rather than being picked before ripening to survive shipping.

pelasaco 6y ago

Reading the article, I ask myself how it looks in Germany. We rotate the soil usage, letting it "rest" for a season. I'm definitely sure that the Vegetables and Fruits now are much better/healthier than in the communist period (GDR).

FreekNortier 6y ago

I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you. The argument that it doesn't scale negates the majority of Agriculture's 10K+ year history. This modern system of chemically driven commodification of food is rather new (post WWII). Granted the World's population is larger than what it was back then, which introduces challenges, but the truth is we are facing disease due to the over-consumption of the 'abundance' more than anything else in the West, and the East is following as well. While I agree the current monetary incentives are not aligned for its success, and the business model that had proven profitable for small scale, local and often organic farms working for the past ~15 years has been essentially curtailed due to COVID, as so many restaurants are limited in capacity or shut down altogether, it is not beyond the realm of possibility to transition how we view Agriculture and Food as a whole. I think this re-calibration is necessary for the challneges we face as Species on Earth moving forward and sincerely believe COVID may be the the disruption we needed to question the 'business as usual' model. There is a great deal of efficacy to the theory/practice that soil remediation to be an effective deterrent in reducing atmospheric CO2 levels; at its core the way Biodynamics has operated since its inception when it was introduced to the nobility in Austria since WWI is nothing more than a distillation of viable practices that follow sound microbiology methods. It may be attached to a great deal esoteric 'woo' but once you see past what is essentially Marketing what you have is the collective synthesis of 10,000+ of trial and error in Man's relationship and the Stewardship we've had with the Nature. That much cannot be disputed. People not entirely obsessed with this topic forget that a food supply not dependent on inputs like artificial fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides aren't that old and that some countries never adopted it due to the costs associated. Explaining the significance of this topic without a great deal of context is entirely daunting but, large concentrated populations in former Empires didn't suffer because their wasn't enough BT corn to feed its cattle, and we would be remiss to forget that much. Detroit's story with urban farming and the culture it brought back with it is a really amazing story that proves that something deemed not 'commercially viable' is not as important as the resilience of a community and a People if the will exists. > So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you. 'Feed' is questionable, but what it clearly does is introduces a myriad of chemicals into your body that can and has cause(d) other health issues, all while still disappointing your palate.

xwdv 6y ago

I have a hard time figuring out the point of vegetables. They are so low calorie that I’d have to eat a massive amount of them to have them contribute any significant amount to a meal, more than what is really practical. They are not really an efficient source of protein, carbs or fats the way lean meat, grains and beans and nuts are. So what’s the point? Vitamins and minerals?

fsflover 6y ago
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/why-5-a-day/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/why-5-a-day/
- xwdv 6y ago
  This does a piss poor job of explaining why they should be eaten. The main points are: Vitamins and minerals (which you can still find in non-vegetables or supplements) Fiber (which you can get from whole grains) Prevents heart diseases (which is not exclusive to vegetables) Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) Taste good? (there are tastier foods...) I’m still not seeing the point or hassle of vegetables. If you don’t even cook them right you can destroy the vitamins which are the primary benefit. Not to mention eating the quantity required to reach recommended levels is probably not sustainable. For someone that doesn’t like eating and cooking, vegetables are a logistical nightmare, a little cup of broccoli only provides like 30 calories and just fills your stomach with useless fiber that makes it a struggle to eat other more efficient nutrient dense foods. I feel like vegetables are more for spicing up a dish than as a primary source of nutrition.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > fills your stomach with useless fiber https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/fiber/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/f... > Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you...

BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago

The article is from 2011. The research it cites is from 1999. The data that the research used is from 1997.

BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago

Vegs are bred so that parasites don't eat them while they grow and bacteria don't eat them while they lay on the shelf. If neither parasites nor bacteria like them, why would humans?

Angostura 6y ago
And this explains why humans will never eat spicy food, nor drink coffee.

bregma 6y ago

Food. Eat it. Not too much. There are plenty of other first world problems to spend your time worrying about.

TaupeRanger 6y ago

This kind of tripe is why nutrition epidemiology is basically the laughing stock of modern science. First of all, the article is almost 10 years old and references data from 1999 at the latest. But most importantly, it uses common nutrition weasel words like "healthy" and "good for you", which are not supported (in fact, CAN'T be supported) by the study. It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this supermarket carrot" to "you will get fewer diseases and/or live longer or better if you eat carrots from soil 100 years ago". The former is a claim about vitamin content. Easy to measure and write a paper about. It is another thing entirely, and totally outside the scope of a paper about mineral/vitamin content, to claim that eating modern carrots actually results in worse health. That claim is (fortunately for "nutritionists" and "functional nutrition" people) never actually backed up by any science whatsoever. It's the same with grass fed beef and all the other "organic" stuff - they are never actually connected to better health outcomes and they never live up to the wild claims made by journalists and bloggers.

montjoy 6y ago
Old data doesn’t make it invalid. I think it’s pretty reasonable to assume soil with more nutrients in it results in food with more nutrients in it (at least within a reasonable set of values). I think it’s also worth checking that food that is modified for growth and resistance factors is still as “nutritious” as before. Do you have any references to your claim that organic food does/does not change health outcomes?
rbecker 6y ago
> It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this supermarket carrot" to "you will get fewer diseases and/or live longer or better if you eat carrots from soil 100 years ago". If only there was some kind of study linking vitamin [1] and protein intake [2] to health [3]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin#Deficient_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin#Deficient_intake [2] https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/protein.html https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/high-intake-of-vitamins-a-e-and-d-linked-to-fewer-respiratory-illnesses-says-study-b1390967.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/high-intake-of-vit...

whoomp12342 6y ago

I am sufficiently confused. How does not using pesticides restore minerals? I don't doubt that soil erosion is a real thing, thats why famrers use cover crops and tilling, but where does said nutrients come from??

fbelzile 6y ago
Organic farming involves more crops that die from pests. I presume those crops/dead pests decompose and replenish the soil with more nutrients for the next season.
BostonEnginerd 6y ago
I've read that pesticide use impacts the types of fungus, bacteria and other critters in the dirt. I understand that they can break down components of the dirt and convert the minerals into more available forms for the plants.

throwawaymanbot 6y ago

Yes. Engineered for fast growth, not for nutrition.

fbelzile 6y ago

If you're fortunate enough to live near a farmer's market, consider going there first to get your produce and meats. Then go to the grocery store to fill in what you couldn't find there. Not only are you going to be helping the local economy, you'll be getting more nutritious food that tastes better and is usually better for the environment. Do a little research on the farm and especially support the ones that practice bio-dynamic farming. It only takes 5 minutes and can have a big impact on the earth.

spodek 6y ago
If you don't live near a farmers market, consider helping organize to start one. Do not accept the situation handed to you. You will find others who want fresher produce, to help their neighbors, and all the benefits of community. The farmers markets others others live near didn't pop out of nowhere. They took time and energy. They return far more value.

ajay-b 6y ago

I’m more curious if genetic engineering has led to more nutritious outcomes, or less. It’s almost like McDonald’s, just because you build more McDonald’s does it mean that food is any better

taeric 6y ago

It is odd. I cannot and do not claim things are not different. But, I always find tomato to be an odd example that everyone goes to. I was taught that these were not even eaten until the Americas. Is that not the case? More, I have never liked them. One of my children, though, couldn't be happier than with a bucket of them. Just eats them straight like an apple. How much of what people taste is novelty and affected by age?