22 ms·

The system is secure and robust, at least with regards to the mechanics of individual votings. Among the main factors is its distributed nature. You just can't

The system is secure and robust, at least with regards to the mechanics of individual votings. Among the main factors is its distributed nature. You just can't run a scam with senior citizen volunteers in thousands of individual precincts. Then, there are observers. Famous case from this week's election was Republicans complaining that their two dozen(!) observers weren't allowed closer than 6 feet to the ballots. It would be impossible for fraud to happen on any regular basis and not coming to light. So the incidence of 0.00002% (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/26/15424270/voter-fraud-north-carolina https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/26/15424270/v...) is somewhat informative. If it were possible to manipulate the vote tabulation in any meaningful way, the GOP wouldn't need to go to all the lengths it does w.r.t. gerrymandering, purging voter roles, coming up with new requirements for voting, or closing voting precincts.

mistermann 6y ago
> The system is secure and robust, at least with regards to the mechanics of individual votings. Not a single vulnerability or shortcoming? How would one know such a thing? > You just can't run a scam with senior citizen volunteers in thousands of individual precincts. Is this the only possible exploit? Is corruption of thousands of precincts even needed in a tight race? > It would be impossible for fraud to happen on any regular basis and not coming to light. How would one know such a thing? Is it possible on an irregular basis? Is it impossible that it does get noticed, but no serious followup? Have there been no examples of whistleblowers who were not listened to in the history of the USA, election related or not? > So the incidence of 0.00002% (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/26/15424270/v https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/26/15424270/v...) is somewhat informative. How might we know that that impressive looking number is accurate? Does vox have an omniscient on staff? I wonder if when the discussion is about a non-politicized topic (like standard, run of the mill security), might there be a difference in mindset when people are formulating their opinions. If the system in question was for anything other than voting, I suspect IT folks would be a little less accepting of evidence-lite assurances that a distributed, largely manually implemented (by non-experts) system of this scale and frequency of usage is 100% up to snuff. It seems rather unlikely that an inconsistent, somewhat cobbled together and non-expertly manned system of this scope is absolutely perfect. And yet, this seems to be not only the overwhelming narrative, but the fact passed down from the media - the same one that spent the last 4 years assuring us that Russia had hacked the prior election.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  In practice, interested parties observe the process. It's relatively party based (where parties have better access). https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/policies-for-election-observers.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/polici... It's relatively difficult to pull off hoodwink when you've got adversarial observers standing there.
  - dionian 6y ago
    There are cases in court right alleging this was not allowed to happen. "The Trump campaign said it is calling for a temporary halt in the counting in Michigan and Pennsylvania until it is given “meaningful” access in numerous locations and allowed to review ballots that already have been opened and processed." - https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-seeks-voting-stop-25762f69b27dfbccc4fd8077fb5fdc91 https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-seeks-voting-stop-25...
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      Michigan case was dismissed by the judge: https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/05/trump-michigan-lawsuit-ballot-counting-case-dismissed/6173871002/ https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/... As was the PA case: https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/11/07/trump-campaign-pa-lawsuit-thrown-out/ https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/11/07/trump-campaign-pa... Has the Trump campaign taken further action beyond what is discussed in your link? I know they had a press conference at the Four Seasons in Pennsylvania, did anything come of that?
      - mistermann 6y ago
        > Michigan case was dismissed by the judge ------------------------------------ Thor Hearne, an attorney for the Trump campaign, said he wanted an order directing Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson to require "meaningful access" for campaign poll watchers to the counting of state ballots, plus access to videotaped surveillance of ballot drop boxes installed around the state after Oct. 1. Michigan Court of Claims Judge Cynthia Stephens said the ballot counting in Michigan, which shows Democrat Joe Biden receiving about 150,000 more votes than Republican Donald Trump, was completed Thursday morning. That made the access request moot, but Stephens said Benson already issued a directive for meaningful access for poll watchers at local ballot counting places. That directive arose from a separate recent lawsuit related to ensuring proper access during the coronavirus pandemic, with the associated social distancing requirements, she said. As for the videotapes, Stephens said there is no legal basis for Benson to provide — or be expected to provide — access to video surveillance of ballot drop boxes installed by local officials. A recent law passed by the Michigan Legislature requires video surveillance of ballot drop boxes installed after Oct. 1. But assistant Attorney General Heather Meingast said the law does not require Benson or her agency to track which boxes were installed after Oct. 1, let alone provide access to video. The ballot drop boxes are primarily a local function. ------------------------------------ Well that's reassuring. > As was the PA case ------------------------------------ The president’s campaign argued that his supporters weren’t being allowed to monitor the tallying of mail-in ballots, but U.S. District Judge Paul Diamond instead argued the two sides to come to an agreement. He suggested each party be allowed 60 observers inside a hall in the downtown Philadelphia convention center where the final ballots are being counted. In Georgia, a judge dismissed a lawsuit from the Trump Campaign on Wednesday. That case from the campaign claimed that a witness said that late-arriving ballots in one county had not been stored properly and may have been mixed in with timely ballots. ------------------------------------ Similarly reassuring. Yes indeed, this is rock solid proof that nothing improper occurred.
jeffreyrogers 6y ago
Fraud obviously happens that doesn't come to light until later: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-philadelphia-judge-elections-convicted-conspiring-violate-civil-rights-and-bribery https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-philadelphia-judge-ele...
- js2 6y ago
  You found one in the 0.00002%. Notably, this occurred during a primary. It's still awful, but the GOP trusts the Democrats to run their own primaries and vice-versa. I wonder how this came to light years after. https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-can-vote/vote-suppression/myth-voter-fraud https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-c...
  - fastball 6y ago
    The problem with fraud is that it's a "victimless" crime, so there could be a lot of fraud going undetected that we just don't know to look for.
    - Schiendelman 6y ago
      There really couldn’t be, no. The mechanisms by which people think there could are easily falsified.
      - fastball 6y ago
        Are you saying voter fraud can't be a victimless crime? What "couldn't be"? How do you falsify me voting for my grandmother with dementia? My grandma will never know, and neither will anyone else. Look, I am more into data-driven policy than the vast majority of people. But the data saying you don't need to make a change is not the same as the data saying you shouldn't make a change.
        amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        > How do you falsify me voting for my grandmother with dementia? My grandma will never know, and neither will anyone else. Yes, you could absolutely do that. But you can't swing an election that way.
User23 6y ago
Chicago is famous for voter fraud, in the tens or even hundreds of thousands[1]. It's almost as if the USA has political machines that mastered electoral dipsy-doodle over a century ago. [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9GDrIHbo31AJ:https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-03-08-8701180815-story.html\ https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9GDrIH...
- skunkworker 6y ago
  It seems like the "fraud" in that article was no more than people voting when they weren't on the voter registration rolls. Today because of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 and the Help America Vote Act of 2002 require states to provide provisional ballots. While there probably was some "fraud", it looks like this is more of a process violation, and one barrier that fortunately has been eradicated.
  - nemo44x 6y ago
    In the book “Gang Leader for a Day” the author detailed how the local gangs and building mangers of various housing projects would coerce their members and tenants to vote and who to vote for. With retaliation if the person(s) didn’t comply. For instance, the building manager could withhold things you needed. The gangs would also ensure they’d get preferential treatment from their aldermen, etc. No idea if this was effective in influencing any outcomes. My biggest concern with widespread mail-in voting is ballot stuffing (bribe for votes becomes easier) and abusive relationships forcing their family members (or community members) to vote a certain way by filling in the ballots themselves. There’s a good reason the voting booth is private.
roenxi 6y ago
> It would be impossible for fraud to happen on any regular basis and not coming to light. So the incidence of 0.00002% is somewhat informative. Individual fraud, sure. But treating 0.00002% as some sort of tolerance on the election results strikes me as likely bullshit. That is nearly 7 9s levels of precision. The electoral system is fault tolerant, but it is not 7-9s accurate. Boxes of ballots will go missing, and it seems very likely that there are polling places out in the countryside that are compromised for whatever reason. There is going to be background error and it just isn't being detected because of lax standards. Furthermore an argument that boils down to "we don't need to secure this system because we aren't detecting any breaches" is farcical. That raises the same alarm bells as a company deriding GAAP standards and accounting because they are old and boring. But in context of this election, Biden won the popular vote by >4 million votes and it appears the overrides built in via the electoral college didn't trigger. To get that overturned there would need to be very, very real evidence of systemic mass fraud.
- arrrg 6y ago
  The problem is that making it seem as though fraud is an actual problem is a political weapon used to suppress voters. So, sure, making sure that elections can’t be tampered with is important – however, don’t for one second assume that by saying such a thing you can be above the political fray. This argument is abused as a political tool to take people away their rights.
kart23 6y ago
https://www.rollcall.com/2019/04/22/mueller-report-russia-hacked-state-databases-and-voting-machine-companies/ https://www.rollcall.com/2019/04/22/mueller-report-russia-ha... https://www.voanews.com/2020-usa-votes/us-confirms-iran-hacked-voter-registration-data-1-state https://www.voanews.com/2020-usa-votes/us-confirms-iran-hack... Voter registration databases. If you get access, you can send extremely targeted messaging at a huge amount of people. I wouldn't put it past someone to find key counties and cities, and take a number of actions to influence the vote.
belorn 6y ago
This is a golden opportunity for the left to implement a policy which historically the left has been advocating for and the right been blocking. National Identification. No more social security numbers, no knowledge about a name or a street. Practically every other country in the world has national identification and uses them as the building block for holding elections, social security, health care, licenses, drugs and so much more. It would be a political tragedy if the sides on national identification would swift sides just because the status quo has shifted.
- jpxw 6y ago
  The left have been opposing voting requiring identification (on the grounds that it discriminates against those without it) for years. Even if they brought in national identification, they wouldn’t make it necessary for voting.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    Then make it free of charge and offer a version for illegalized people to carry.
    - motogpjimbo 6y ago
      I'm not American, so this comment confuses me. Why would illegal immigrants be allowed to vote or carry an official government-issued ID?
      - vlovich123 6y ago
        It comes up when there’s services illegal immigrants will use anyway and you want it to be done properly. For example, you want illegal immigrants to still have a valid driver’s license and insurance as the alternative isn’t “no illegal immigrants” but instead just a generally a society that functions less well (and in the case of driving more costly and less safe).
        6y ago
matwood 6y ago
> The system is secure and robust, at least with regards to the mechanics of individual votings. Agreed. If anything this has shown me just how robust the voting system is currently. Many of the counting locations live streamed the process, there are watchers from all interested parties, and the various people in charge/control seem to be from a mix of both sides. Small errors can still occur, but like we saw from 2016, a recount changed the final tally by a couple hundred votes in close states. The real effective fraud, is voter suppression. Shutting down polling places where one side doesn't want people to vote, and making absentee voting seem like something that isn't done every single election for example. Then there is after election fraud where one side attempts to delegitimize and throw out legally cast votes.
- trhway 6y ago
  >Many of the counting locations live streamed the process applying magician's principles one would make observing public focus all the attention at one place while the actual "magic" would happen outside of that focus spot.
mgoetzke 6y ago
Exactly. Gerrymandering and other methods work way more effectively
charwalker 6y ago
Election fraud is right there, the elimination of drop boxes and other actions to limit turnout or the ability to vote. That's real un-American, taking the right to vote away from people. I've been told that the second amendment exists to prevent such gross abuse of our rights but I haven't seen the NRA or GOP get too mad about it lately.

mistermann 6y ago

> The system is secure and robust, at least with regards to the mechanics of individual votings. Not a single vulnerability or shortcoming? How would one know such a thing? > You just can't run a scam with senior citizen volunteers in thousands of individual precincts. Is this the only possible exploit? Is corruption of thousands of precincts even needed in a tight race? > It would be impossible for fraud to happen on any regular basis and not coming to light. How would one know such a thing? Is it possible on an irregular basis? Is it impossible that it does get noticed, but no serious followup? Have there been no examples of whistleblowers who were not listened to in the history of the USA, election related or not? > So the incidence of 0.00002% (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/26/15424270/v https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/26/15424270/v...) is somewhat informative. How might we know that that impressive looking number is accurate? Does vox have an omniscient on staff? I wonder if when the discussion is about a non-politicized topic (like standard, run of the mill security), might there be a difference in mindset when people are formulating their opinions. If the system in question was for anything other than voting, I suspect IT folks would be a little less accepting of evidence-lite assurances that a distributed, largely manually implemented (by non-experts) system of this scale and frequency of usage is 100% up to snuff. It seems rather unlikely that an inconsistent, somewhat cobbled together and non-expertly manned system of this scope is absolutely perfect. And yet, this seems to be not only the overwhelming narrative, but the fact passed down from the media - the same one that spent the last 4 years assuring us that Russia had hacked the prior election.

maxerickson 6y ago
In practice, interested parties observe the process. It's relatively party based (where parties have better access). https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/policies-for-election-observers.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/polici... It's relatively difficult to pull off hoodwink when you've got adversarial observers standing there.
- dionian 6y ago
  There are cases in court right alleging this was not allowed to happen. "The Trump campaign said it is calling for a temporary halt in the counting in Michigan and Pennsylvania until it is given “meaningful” access in numerous locations and allowed to review ballots that already have been opened and processed." - https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-seeks-voting-stop-25762f69b27dfbccc4fd8077fb5fdc91 https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-seeks-voting-stop-25...
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Michigan case was dismissed by the judge: https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/05/trump-michigan-lawsuit-ballot-counting-case-dismissed/6173871002/ https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/... As was the PA case: https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/11/07/trump-campaign-pa-lawsuit-thrown-out/ https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/11/07/trump-campaign-pa... Has the Trump campaign taken further action beyond what is discussed in your link? I know they had a press conference at the Four Seasons in Pennsylvania, did anything come of that?
    - mistermann 6y ago
      > Michigan case was dismissed by the judge ------------------------------------ Thor Hearne, an attorney for the Trump campaign, said he wanted an order directing Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson to require "meaningful access" for campaign poll watchers to the counting of state ballots, plus access to videotaped surveillance of ballot drop boxes installed around the state after Oct. 1. Michigan Court of Claims Judge Cynthia Stephens said the ballot counting in Michigan, which shows Democrat Joe Biden receiving about 150,000 more votes than Republican Donald Trump, was completed Thursday morning. That made the access request moot, but Stephens said Benson already issued a directive for meaningful access for poll watchers at local ballot counting places. That directive arose from a separate recent lawsuit related to ensuring proper access during the coronavirus pandemic, with the associated social distancing requirements, she said. As for the videotapes, Stephens said there is no legal basis for Benson to provide — or be expected to provide — access to video surveillance of ballot drop boxes installed by local officials. A recent law passed by the Michigan Legislature requires video surveillance of ballot drop boxes installed after Oct. 1. But assistant Attorney General Heather Meingast said the law does not require Benson or her agency to track which boxes were installed after Oct. 1, let alone provide access to video. The ballot drop boxes are primarily a local function. ------------------------------------ Well that's reassuring. > As was the PA case ------------------------------------ The president’s campaign argued that his supporters weren’t being allowed to monitor the tallying of mail-in ballots, but U.S. District Judge Paul Diamond instead argued the two sides to come to an agreement. He suggested each party be allowed 60 observers inside a hall in the downtown Philadelphia convention center where the final ballots are being counted. In Georgia, a judge dismissed a lawsuit from the Trump Campaign on Wednesday. That case from the campaign claimed that a witness said that late-arriving ballots in one county had not been stored properly and may have been mixed in with timely ballots. ------------------------------------ Similarly reassuring. Yes indeed, this is rock solid proof that nothing improper occurred.

jeffreyrogers 6y ago

Fraud obviously happens that doesn't come to light until later: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-philadelphia-judge-elections-convicted-conspiring-violate-civil-rights-and-bribery https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-philadelphia-judge-ele...

js2 6y ago
You found one in the 0.00002%. Notably, this occurred during a primary. It's still awful, but the GOP trusts the Democrats to run their own primaries and vice-versa. I wonder how this came to light years after. https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-can-vote/vote-suppression/myth-voter-fraud https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-c...
- fastball 6y ago
  The problem with fraud is that it's a "victimless" crime, so there could be a lot of fraud going undetected that we just don't know to look for.
  - Schiendelman 6y ago
    There really couldn’t be, no. The mechanisms by which people think there could are easily falsified.
    - fastball 6y ago
      Are you saying voter fraud can't be a victimless crime? What "couldn't be"? How do you falsify me voting for my grandmother with dementia? My grandma will never know, and neither will anyone else. Look, I am more into data-driven policy than the vast majority of people. But the data saying you don't need to make a change is not the same as the data saying you shouldn't make a change.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        > How do you falsify me voting for my grandmother with dementia? My grandma will never know, and neither will anyone else. Yes, you could absolutely do that. But you can't swing an election that way.

User23 6y ago

Chicago is famous for voter fraud, in the tens or even hundreds of thousands[1]. It's almost as if the USA has political machines that mastered electoral dipsy-doodle over a century ago. [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9GDrIHbo31AJ:https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-03-08-8701180815-story.html\ https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9GDrIH...

skunkworker 6y ago
It seems like the "fraud" in that article was no more than people voting when they weren't on the voter registration rolls. Today because of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 and the Help America Vote Act of 2002 require states to provide provisional ballots. While there probably was some "fraud", it looks like this is more of a process violation, and one barrier that fortunately has been eradicated.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  In the book “Gang Leader for a Day” the author detailed how the local gangs and building mangers of various housing projects would coerce their members and tenants to vote and who to vote for. With retaliation if the person(s) didn’t comply. For instance, the building manager could withhold things you needed. The gangs would also ensure they’d get preferential treatment from their aldermen, etc. No idea if this was effective in influencing any outcomes. My biggest concern with widespread mail-in voting is ballot stuffing (bribe for votes becomes easier) and abusive relationships forcing their family members (or community members) to vote a certain way by filling in the ballots themselves. There’s a good reason the voting booth is private.

roenxi 6y ago

> It would be impossible for fraud to happen on any regular basis and not coming to light. So the incidence of 0.00002% is somewhat informative. Individual fraud, sure. But treating 0.00002% as some sort of tolerance on the election results strikes me as likely bullshit. That is nearly 7 9s levels of precision. The electoral system is fault tolerant, but it is not 7-9s accurate. Boxes of ballots will go missing, and it seems very likely that there are polling places out in the countryside that are compromised for whatever reason. There is going to be background error and it just isn't being detected because of lax standards. Furthermore an argument that boils down to "we don't need to secure this system because we aren't detecting any breaches" is farcical. That raises the same alarm bells as a company deriding GAAP standards and accounting because they are old and boring. But in context of this election, Biden won the popular vote by >4 million votes and it appears the overrides built in via the electoral college didn't trigger. To get that overturned there would need to be very, very real evidence of systemic mass fraud.

arrrg 6y ago
The problem is that making it seem as though fraud is an actual problem is a political weapon used to suppress voters. So, sure, making sure that elections can’t be tampered with is important – however, don’t for one second assume that by saying such a thing you can be above the political fray. This argument is abused as a political tool to take people away their rights.

kart23 6y ago

https://www.rollcall.com/2019/04/22/mueller-report-russia-hacked-state-databases-and-voting-machine-companies/ https://www.rollcall.com/2019/04/22/mueller-report-russia-ha... https://www.voanews.com/2020-usa-votes/us-confirms-iran-hacked-voter-registration-data-1-state https://www.voanews.com/2020-usa-votes/us-confirms-iran-hack... Voter registration databases. If you get access, you can send extremely targeted messaging at a huge amount of people. I wouldn't put it past someone to find key counties and cities, and take a number of actions to influence the vote.

belorn 6y ago

This is a golden opportunity for the left to implement a policy which historically the left has been advocating for and the right been blocking. National Identification. No more social security numbers, no knowledge about a name or a street. Practically every other country in the world has national identification and uses them as the building block for holding elections, social security, health care, licenses, drugs and so much more. It would be a political tragedy if the sides on national identification would swift sides just because the status quo has shifted.

jpxw 6y ago
The left have been opposing voting requiring identification (on the grounds that it discriminates against those without it) for years. Even if they brought in national identification, they wouldn’t make it necessary for voting.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Then make it free of charge and offer a version for illegalized people to carry.
  - motogpjimbo 6y ago
    I'm not American, so this comment confuses me. Why would illegal immigrants be allowed to vote or carry an official government-issued ID?
    - vlovich123 6y ago
      It comes up when there’s services illegal immigrants will use anyway and you want it to be done properly. For example, you want illegal immigrants to still have a valid driver’s license and insurance as the alternative isn’t “no illegal immigrants” but instead just a generally a society that functions less well (and in the case of driving more costly and less safe).
      - 6y ago

matwood 6y ago

> The system is secure and robust, at least with regards to the mechanics of individual votings. Agreed. If anything this has shown me just how robust the voting system is currently. Many of the counting locations live streamed the process, there are watchers from all interested parties, and the various people in charge/control seem to be from a mix of both sides. Small errors can still occur, but like we saw from 2016, a recount changed the final tally by a couple hundred votes in close states. The real effective fraud, is voter suppression. Shutting down polling places where one side doesn't want people to vote, and making absentee voting seem like something that isn't done every single election for example. Then there is after election fraud where one side attempts to delegitimize and throw out legally cast votes.

trhway 6y ago
>Many of the counting locations live streamed the process applying magician's principles one would make observing public focus all the attention at one place while the actual "magic" would happen outside of that focus spot.

mgoetzke 6y ago

Exactly. Gerrymandering and other methods work way more effectively

charwalker 6y ago

Election fraud is right there, the elimination of drop boxes and other actions to limit turnout or the ability to vote. That's real un-American, taking the right to vote away from people. I've been told that the second amendment exists to prevent such gross abuse of our rights but I haven't seen the NRA or GOP get too mad about it lately.