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About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

• thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
  As beautiful and polished as iOS is it is policies like these that keep me on Android. I wish iSH the best of luck, but I will stick with Termux (https://termux.com/ https://termux.com/) on Android for now.
  • api 6y ago
    I just categorize iOS devices as consoles, analogous to things like Nintendo game systems, and not as true general purpose computers. I also consider it foolish to attempt to innovate on this platform beyond the narrow confines of what mobile devices typically do, or to put too much engineering work into iOS specific stuff. Apple can and will simply revoke your app for fickle reasons. iOS is a pretty dumb term for cloud apps and the web, and that’s it. That being said I do have an iPhone... because for my phone that’s all I want and it works well and has better privacy than most Android devices. I basically want web, email, texting, calls, and maps, and maybe occasional apps like Uber or whatever. I don’t use it as a “real computer.” I have a real computer for that.
    • maallooc 6y ago
      I use iOS devices specifically because they are consoles, not general purpose computers.
  • cute_boi 6y ago
    i thought termux is going to have issue in latest version of andriod? This is what we get from monopoly.
    • lern_too_spel 6y ago
      They have a workaround, which is to package debs in APKs, which they can generate automatically.
    • thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
      The Termux developers have a plan (https://github.com/termux/termux-packages/wiki/Termux-and-Android-10 https://github.com/termux/termux-packages/wiki/Termux-and-An...). >> This is what we get from monopoly. Agreed. The Apple / Google mobile OS dualopy leaves few choices.
      • ampdepolymerase 6y ago
        This is the side effect when people espouse "scaling software" and "software is eating the world". Whoever scales first eats the world.
      • fsflover 6y ago
        The few choices are Librem 5 and PinePhone, native GNU/Linux phones.
        • m4rtink 6y ago
          Android hardware running GNU/Linux distros (such as Sailfish OS) on top of Android blobs via libhybris could be a stopgap solution as well. But indeed, phones running normal Linux distros need to be the norm in this case.
        • neop1x 6y ago
          I have Librem pre-ordered but I expect it will be barely usable as an Android replacement (yet). Though it had to start somewhere and I am glad Purism started that. There are many many smaller and bigger things which went into Android or iOS which will need to be re-done from scratch and things like Google Pay probably won't ever be on such a device. Camera will probably be quite bad, etc. On the other hand, there is Andbox which should partly fill in the app gabs in the meantime.
    • bigbubba 6y ago
      Well.. duopoly. I think we're witnessing the war on general computation being lost: https://archive.org/details/GeneralComputation https://archive.org/details/GeneralComputation
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • arvinsim 6y ago
        We are losing the war because those who are supposed to fight for general computing are ceding ground to the duopoly due to a myriad of reasons(convenience, "security", ease of use, etc)
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • nextos 6y ago
    It's sad. I'm a Linux diehard, but during the pandemic I considered buying an iPad to SSH into my office workstation, browse the web, etc. as I got stuck in an awkward accommodation. Hardware is great, but the keyboard lacks a dedicated ESC, and I was quite uncomfortable with the fact that terminal apps seem like second rate citizens / not well liked by Apple. IMHO, there's a lot of untapped potential in the iPad as a programming device if Apple was more reasonable. The alternative Android tablet ecosystem, unlike phones, is total a mess. Samsung has a lot of nice offerings, but software is mediocre and they seem to be really unfocused. I eventually ended up getting a Surface Go, which is quirky is some regards, but supports Linux really well and is a real computer, not a locked appliance.
    • pmontra 6y ago
      Android keyboards also lack Esc. The key in that place implements the go to home functionality (Android's middle button.) My use case is the now deprecated / defunct Linux container in Samsung's Dex. I didn't find a way to configure the keyboard and X11 to map it to an Esc for Linux. I've been using Control [, which is a little pain.
      • lern_too_spel 6y ago
        Some keyboards have escape. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketwork...
      • dheera 6y ago
        Check out "Hacker's Keyboard"
        • pmontra 6y ago
          I mean a hardware keyboard, usually bluetooth but USB would do.
    • ryukafalz 6y ago
      > I eventually ended up getting a Surface Go, which is quirky is some regards, but supports Linux really well and is a real computer, not a locked appliance. Doesn’t have working cameras though, right? I was looking into the Surface Go a bit as a Linux tablet recently, but it sounded like I wouldn’t have a working webcam (which I use fairly often these days for videoconferencing) and I’d need to install a kernel fork since some of the hardware isn’t supported yet in mainline Linux. I’d be glad to be wrong about these, since a lightweight Linux tablet (especially with LTE support!) would be amazing. My criteria for hardware that supports Linux really well these days though is more “works out of the box” and less “requires tinkering.”
  • Tade0 6y ago
    Same. With Termux I was able to set up a rudimentary Node.js dev environment on my device - useful for showing people stuff I was working on which wasn't published.
  • Valkhyr 6y ago
    Same here. I run Termux on my Pixel, but I also have an iPad and was really excited to when I installed iSH. I hoped their initial approval of iSH meant that Apple was becoming more liberal. Hell, I was even wondering if this would make it conceivable for me to switch back to an iPhone at some point if I became unhappy with Android. Of course, deep down I knew it could not last. Seriously, f* Apple, and f* the App Store.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• saagarjha 6y ago
  These are linked in the post, but I'm pulling them out as a top-level comment so you can focus your discussion on those. Theodore on how the App Review process could be improved: https://tbodt.com/2020/11/08/app-review-experiences.html https://tbodt.com/2020/11/08/app-review-experiences.html Ramblings I wrote on why I believe the guideline iSH was pulled under was incorrectly applied and needs to be rewritten: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/11/08/fixing-section-2-5-2/ https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/11/08/fixing-section-2-5-2/ Related, a-Shell got a similar notice: https://twitter.com/a_shell_ios/status/1325526061099196416 https://twitter.com/a_shell_ios/status/1325526061099196416
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • harrisonjackson 6y ago
    The reviewer that reinstalled the package manager with wget is my favorite part of this whole debacle. The reviewer could in theory reimplement an os in python or javascript in one of the already approved scripting applications. Then implement apt-get or another package manager and install all sorts of dangerous codes!! /s
    • Osiris 6y ago
      Many apps, especially JavaScript based ones download unapproved JavaScript without a user's consent or knowledge as updates to the app outside of the review process but those are still allowed.
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        They may still be approved but I believe recent changes to the rules have made this behavior against the rules.
        • Osiris 6y ago
          so all Expo apps will be banned?
• jpxw 6y ago
  Hadn’t heard of iSH before now, but I just downloaded. Seems likely that this will become another example of Streisand effect!
  • reikonomusha 6y ago
    This is not really an example of that effect. This is just the nature of news. The app won’t somehow become any more used after it’s removed because it’ll be, well, removed.
    • Shank 6y ago
      > The app won’t somehow become any more used after it’s removed because it’ll be, well, removed. On the contrary: it can be distributed through TestFlight, and potentially even available in AltStore. If added to AltStore, it would make that platform much more well known. In addition, if users install it from the App Store right now, it's signed and won't disappear or expire after any period of time. AltStore, TestFlight builds, etc., all require routine maintenance to stop from expiring. The iOS App Store release, however, will continue to function indefinitely, even if Apple pulls it from sale.
      • ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
        > it can be distributed through TestFlight Not for long. There was a post, a couple months ago, by a developer that was screaming about having his developer account permanently banned, because he was using TestFlight as his distribution system.
        • jsjohnst 6y ago
          > Not for long. Considering iSH has been using TestFlight for 1-2 years and Apple is fully aware of them doing so, I don’t exactly agree with you.
          • ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
• gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  Cant imagine how Apple would let this through in the first place but makes sense they would pull it. I grabbed a copy after reading this and very nice work by the developers but easy to see how an app that lets me install other apps on ios would be banned.
  • jeromenerf 6y ago
    It's strange that it can get installed through apple testflight for years before reaching the app store only to be removed after two weeks.
• fuzzy2 6y ago
  Previous discussion of app: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24861923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24861923
• kmeisthax 6y ago
  Apple: the iPad Pro is a computer Also Apple: how dare you make a sandboxed shell environment for it
  • raverbashing 6y ago
    "what's a computer" And I might add. Until you are able to develop an iPad app in itself, it is not replacing "a real one"
    • bigbubba 6y ago
      A computer without software is no longer a computer?
      • mhh__ 6y ago
        As a legal distinction I think it's not unreasonable, i.e. a TV these days is just a big ipad it it's not considered a personal computer.
        • bigbubba 6y ago
          If a TV isn't plugged into anything, I suppose it's no longer a TV.
        • Valkhyr 6y ago
          The big difference is that you generally see more people who would find it useful to run arbitrary software on their phone than on their TV or smart fridge, especially considering that recent phones have single core performance approaching (or exceeding older) laptops. There are plenty of people in this world for whom their smartphone is their primary or only computer (by necessity or choice), and it sucks that they cannot actually take full control of their computer. (For what it's worth, I also think that if you are in the minority who want to run custom software on your TV, the manufacturer should absolutely not be able to prevent you from doing so, because it's your TV - void your warranty while you are using unsupported software? Maybe. Prevent install outright? Hell no.)
• pvtmert 6y ago
  One can tell apple that any application that shows web pages essentially remotely executing code on their device.
  • akmarinov 6y ago
    And they’ll reply we don’t discuss other applications. If they want you gone - you’re gone.
  • callamdelaney 6y ago
    This was exactly my thought; web browsers are doing the same thing.
  • threeseed 6y ago
    Apple requires all web browsers to use the WebKit engine. So nothing on iOS devices is executed in an environment they don't control.
    • kjaftaedi 6y ago
      Genuinely curious. How does this improve security?
      • hda2 6y ago
        It doesn't. It only improves Apple's control.
        • judge2020 6y ago
          Apple's insistence is probably because they don't want to let other developers [even Google] near JIT, which is the only way to make a super performant browser (although a sandboxed browser's speed would probably be acceptable on modern hardware).
• shmerl 6y ago
  Good, Apple, continue shooting yourself in the foot. Users will totally like this.
• jacquesm 6y ago
  PSA: You don't actually own your i* devices. You did pay for them but someone else controls them and determines what you get to run on them.
  • thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
    Who really controls your computer: https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57 https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57
  • mullingitover 6y ago
    Incorrect. You can do local builds and installs of any code you like.
    • Tepix 6y ago
      Not if Apple stops signing your dev certificate. Without Apple helping you, you cannot install apps you compiled yourself on your own Apple device.
      • mullingitover 6y ago
        True, but also irrelevant.
        • kencausey 6y ago
          I'm generally curious and somewhat ignorant on this subject. I would appreciate if you could explain why it is irrelevant.
          • mullingitover 6y ago
            The original complaint was that you can't run your own unapproved code on your iDevice. I explained why this was false, and then the goalposts were moved to to some other concern.
• heavyset_go 6y ago
  Anti-trust action against Apple and Google for holding the mobile app distribution market hostage for more than a decade cannot come fast enough.
  • nbzso 6y ago
    It's long overdue. Mac OS is next inline. Apple is innovator but in completely different space. In locking in users by using mix of influencers, expert talk and compelling hardware design. It pains me deeply and the only reasonable explanation that I find for my self for falling in this trap is that this was deeply hidden under Jobs management. Now it s clear as day. Worst part: their target demographics is clueless and ready to give trust. Mobile computing will be under strict control and restricted until we have a linux based revolution in this space. On other hand I find it very healthy for my self using mobile devices only in cases when I cannot use a real computer.:)
• Osiris 6y ago
  > Consistent enforcement of Apple’s incorrect interpretation would require the removal of all scripting apps, including many of the most popular applications in the App Store and some of Apple’s own applications. The problem with "consistent enforcement" is 1) the guidelines are purposefully vague 2) there are reports of unwritten internal rules that are different from the public rules 3) I suspect that the amount of revenue that a company brings through their app also affects how rules are applied But, it's their platform and they can do whatever the hell the way with no (legal) consequences at all.
  • dylan604 6y ago
    > 3) I suspect that the amount of revenue that a company brings through their app also affects how rules are applied It didn't affect Epic. Break the rules, get the boot.
    • kevingadd 6y ago
      Worked for Amazon and Netflix.
      • jannes 6y ago
        I think in return they had to integrate with the TV app on AppleTV
  • threeseed 6y ago
    1) and 3) are simply nonsense. The guidelines are quite specific. What has happened is that over time new applications and use cases have arisen for which the guidelines were never designed for e.g. remote app streaming. Also Adobe, Google and Microsoft contribute significantly to Apple's bottom line and they have all had apps blocked.
    • Osiris 6y ago
      vague: of uncertain, indefinite, or unclear character or meaning. The fact that these stories about multiple parties interpreting the same exact guideline different, and in some cases even Apple interpreting it differently I think justifies the usage of "vague".
• mortenjorck 6y ago
  This isn’t sustainable. Software developers can’t build on a foundation that is constantly, capriciously shifting. This on top of the App Store's already-onerous restrictions and the fact that it’s the only practical way to get your software on one of the world's largest computing platforms has already engendered a deep antipathy [1] among Apple developers, and there are no signs it’s getting better. Something has to give. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23580762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23580762
  • burrows 6y ago
    Nah. If the current crop of developers leaves the platform then another crop will take their place.
    • smnrchrds 6y ago
      You are being downvoted, but the entire video game industry is the living proof that you can mistreat your developers and use a high churn rate to make sure you never run out of them.
      • cblconfederate 6y ago
        Those are not third party devs, no?
        • ratww 6y ago
          Not in the given example, but one can make a case that console makers behave the same way Apple does regarding their closed platforms.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • intricatedetail 6y ago
      It's about your company values. If you put greed above anything else then you won't get business from me. I try to avoid companies who support Apple.
• dylan604 6y ago
  "we received a call from Apple" is this a literal statement where some human from Apple called on the telephone to speak to someone about this situation, or is this a phrase that actually means they received an email notification about the situation? I ask because it seems well outside the norm of no-human contact regarding support from FAANG companies.
  • _qulr 6y ago
    It's a literal statement. Apple has phone calls with developers on occasion, especially in cases like this. Unusual, but not at all unprecedented. I'll just mention the famous case when a developer actually recorded the phone call with Apple: https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story
    • steve_taylor 6y ago
      Sounds like the developer got caught in the act and Apple was being quite forgiving in this case. The Phil Schiller name drop sounds like total bullshit, though.
  • ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    Apple is actually pretty good at having humans interact with us (developers). I generally don't have to spend long in the "Anything but talking to a human" distraction gauntlet. They don't always tell us what we want to hear, but they do call.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Yeah, they actually call you. It's a bit annoying, actually, since they call you at a random time and also they basically read off a script, so they might as well email you.
  • stefan_ 6y ago
    They call so you are not prepared and there isn't a ready record. It's probably in the antitrust trainings..
• CyberRabbi 6y ago
  Developers who still support apples ecosystem are in denial
• zakki 6y ago
  Users have no power with Apple actions. Developers do have such power. Don’t build for them and they’ll listen.
• blunte 6y ago
  There are at least two reasons that Apple tries to prevent tools like iSH. In order of what I suspect is their motivation: 1. Users can be foolish or even tricked into installing apps and entering commands. If iSH provided a possible attack vector, these kinds of users would get bitten (and they would complain about weak Apple security). As Apple really does seem to be making a strong effort on security (and privacy, it appears?), losing a few useful apps and a few users is worth the trade. 2. This is a bit more of a stretch, but for various reasons Apple wants to control the macos/ios development process. Whether it's to force developers to own Mac computers (when xcode could probably run quite well on iPad Pro...), or to perhaps guarantee a more consistent outcome (which ultimately should affect the users in a positive way, or at least a less negative way), Apple wants to control the process.
  • chj 6y ago
    This is an emulator! everything runs inside a sandbox within sandbox.
• zmk5 6y ago
  I have a feeling they are going to release something on Tuesday. They just gave the same notice to a-shell too to remove `pip`, `wasm`, and `curl`.
  • easton 6y ago
    I don’t know, it’s not like these compete with a true *nix userland or Xcode really (since Apple can get 100x or more performance than the emulator that iSH is forced to use due to the sandbox restrictions). It seems like they are more concerned that Microsoft can say “No Game Pass? But I can download Tux Racer on iSH!!1!” which doesn’t look awesome to a judge. I’d love to be wrong. Every time I think about buying an iPad keyboard I get cranky that I can’t run brew and CPython (or shoot, Swift outside of the subset in Playgrounds) and everything else I can on a real Mac.
• intricatedetail 6y ago
  There is no point fighting Apple. Companies spend resources on Apple moving goal posts and focus on artificial problems. Once companies stop supporting Apple products, users will switch to better platforms or Apple will change their ways. I made sure everyone I know is informed about Apple shady practices and knows to avoid their products.
  • clusterfish 6y ago
    Switch where? Google's walled garden sucks too, even if slightly less right now. You can't fight a duopoly as if it's a competitive market.
    • fsflover 6y ago
      The alternatives are GNU/Linux phones (PinePhone, Librem 5) and companies respecting users, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24866279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24866279
      • RonanTheGrey 6y ago
        My short term plan is to get an Android device, root it and install something else. Long term plan is to keep an eye on Librem and get one when it actually ships possibly after an iteration or two. Or not, I might get one sooner if I think I have some time to try to build something for it.
      • clusterfish 6y ago
        I really hope these eventually succeed but that's not a given. The existing app stores moat is very strong. Average people would never think to use these independent Linux phones the way they are today, and it's not a given that the situation will noticeably improve in 5-10-15 years. I want good options available to everyone, not just a subset of the typical desktop-Linux audience.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
• heavensgateboy 6y ago
  The practice of rigging app store removals as a means of increasing launch-hype is becoming an increasingly utilized marketing technique for apps. The "Hey" e-mail app successfully used this tactic recently. This marketing technique is a form of social engineering and fraud that spurs artificial discourse regarding well-known legal hurdles affecting apps. App developers then re-publish a compliant app that capitalizes on the very marketplace that the app developer and their pool of new users claim some deep-seated issue with. The old switcheroo!
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    We have no plans if submitting a new build at this time, as we personally believe the build we currently have is already compliant. As for hype…I guess you could claim that? But we’re “promoting” and app that won’t be on the store after tomorrow.
  • gwilikers 6y ago
    What does a compliant version of iSH look like? I'm not sure this marketing technique applies here as complying would defeat the entire purpose of the application, so it seems like they're just going to let come what may with regards to removal.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • kevingadd 6y ago
    "Fraud"? Sorry, going against Tim Cook's will is not a crime.
  • jagger27 6y ago
    iSH is an open source hobby project, not a product. I fail to see how what you accuse Hey of as fraud and artificial discourse either.
    • heavensgateboy 6y ago
      “Hey” very clearly gamed an Apple TOS violation to increase the visibility of their project as a marketing stunt during its launch. This practice is becoming increasingly common as companies try to position themselves as being relatable to average users. It’s free publicity, integrates into a hotly debated topic poll, and garners a lot of commentary which can be easily driven by shills.
• the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  I don't understand how this was permitted in the first place. Everything about this is against the app store guidelines. Unfortunately I don't see how you can have this be compliant at all.
• iaxiomi 6y ago
  If I was iSH developer and I wanted to fuck with Apple I would make iSH run in WASM and browser. Good luck banning that desktop shortcut.
  • yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    Actually, that's an interesting question: does https://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://bellard.org/jslinux/ work in iOS's browser?
    • jaspergilley 6y ago
      Can confirm it does
    • IggleSniggle 6y ago
      Of COURSE this is the way! Don’t know why I hadn’t thought of this.
  • josteink 6y ago
    > If I was iSH developer and I wanted to fuck with Apple I would make iSH run in WASM Seems Apple is on the WASM-banning track already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25028733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25028733
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      That's not running in the browser.
• js2 6y ago
  Apple won't allow you to run youtube-dl on your iOS device. Section 2.5.2 is just the excuse. If 2.5.2 didn't cover it, they'd make up another rule to do so. Apple isn't going to let people sidestep copyright on iOS. It doesn't matter whether youtube-dl or curl or wget have legitimate uses. If they can be used to sidestep copyright, Apple will ban them. I'm an Apple user. This pisses me off too.
  • monocularvision 6y ago
    I run youtube-dl using StaSh inside of Pythonista.
    • js2 6y ago
      I'm happy to find out I was wrong.
• mullingitover 6y ago
  > Advanced users are welcome to build iSH themselves—it’s free and open source and always will be! I mean, the app store fiasco sucks, but at the same time if you're advanced enough to want a command line on an iDevice you're probably advanced enough to do 'git clone', hit the build button in XCode, and do a local install. It's grade school level of difficulty. Ideally they'd offer a release that you can build and install locally that's full featured and is wholly unfettered by concerns about app store policies.
  • williamscales 6y ago
    I’m actually not sure about that, as far as I can tell there’s no way for me to build the app without having access to another Apple machine running the full MacOS. I just have an iPad and a Linux desktop, which generally suits me fine. So, the App Store fiasco sucks, and doubly so for those who are not already entirely inside Apple’s walled garden.
    • mullingitover 6y ago
      Last I checked it was possible to run Mac OS in a VM on linux and install via USB tether. This isn't quite the grade school level of difficulty, but if you're using linux as your daily driver you're already accustomed to doing things the hardest way.
      • williamscales 6y ago
        I’ll have to check that out. The feasibility would depend on whether I have to buy a Mac OS license just to do this.
        • clusterfish 6y ago
          Haha, you can't just buy a macos license. You also are not allowed to use it on non-apple hardware iirc.
      • kevincox 6y ago
• robocat 6y ago
  To me it appears they admit that iSH allows scripting (ummm, obviously), and that scripting is against Apple’s policy (as we all know). From one of their articles: “Soon after we released iSH without apk, we found users who had figured out a way to get apk back using wget and were posting about this throughout the internet”. They argue that Apple’s policy should be changed to allow scripting: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/11/08/fixing-section-2-5-2/ https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/11/08/fixing-section-2-5-2/ It looks to me that Apple’s main reason for not allowing scripting is to prevent an app from deploying other apps within itself (preventing any competition with the app store), with a secondary reason being security for users (harder to argue against). I can’t see Apple ever allowing a shell app into the store, as that would turn your iDevice into a general purpose computer.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    My argument is that Apple already allows scripting (as they have already approved dozens of such apps, including their own) and my suggestion is a clarification of the guidelines to make this explicit rather than subject to arbitrary review.
    • robocat 6y ago
      My guess is that Apple disallows scripting because it is a clear boundary they can make which prevents an alternative way of loading programs(apps). They then whitelist in some kinds of apps that allow scripting, but that won’t compete with the App Store. The WebView exception [edit: that used to exist] is from an older version of the agreement, but it helps indicate what they mean: “3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not downloaded. The only exception to the foregoing is scripts and code downloaded and run by Apple’s built-in WebKit framework, provided that such scripts and code do not change the primary purpose of the Application by providing features or functionality that are inconsistent with the intended and advertised purpose of the Application as submitted to the App Store.” If scripting were allowed, how would you or Apple ensure iSH doesn’t break any of the other 2.5.x clauses.
• cblconfederate 6y ago
  Grabbing my popcorn to watch as the apple sympathizing crowd comes up with more excuses
  • RonanTheGrey 6y ago
    I'd still like a good explanation why I can't do what I want with my phone. You don't want do to that? Good, don't. Make it so that I can, if I have to tick a box somewhere hidden in Apple's labyrinthine and undiscoverable Settings app. Of course, we already know the answer why I can't do what I want with my phone, because it isn't my phone, is it, Apple continues to think of it as theirs and they simply grudgingly rent it to you for awhile all the while treating you the user as the enemy.
    • andrekandre 6y ago
      > I can't do what I want with my phone. well, you kind of can, you just need a mac and xcode ^^;
    • zepto 6y ago
      You can do what you want with your phone. You have a legal right to jailbreak it and hack on it in any way you like.
      • zakki 6y ago
        Jailbreak is not consumer friendly. Which is not Apple way, is it?
        • zepto 6y ago
          That’s irrelevant - the point is that RonanTheGrey can actually do whatever they want with the phone they own. They have the legal right.
      • RonanTheGrey 6y ago
        Ok. I want to run iSh by installing it from the developer's signed build. That's what I want to do. Can I do that?
• barnacled 6y ago
  Yet another example of apple's ongoing control freakery. I wonder how many incidents will be required before those who rush to defend them every time get it? Apple tolerate app store developers as a necessary evil. If they could develop all of their own apps they would. As with suppliers, as with stores, as with everything they would gladly prefer to do it all themselves and give zero access or share the slightest collaboration with anybody. They are utterly ruthless in this regard and will continue to be for as long as they exist. This includes doing bad and nasty things as well as those the apologists can more readily rationalise. I am a little surprised anybody takes risks in this arena. Of course for $$$ apps that trivially fulfil apple's arbitrary rules (for now) the potential payout justifies it but for free/open source apps why risk the pain? For a company that happily generates colossal margins by using the effectively slave labour of a totalitarian state which puts people in concentration camps and disappears political opponents them being unethical/inconsistent in the app store seems very unsurprising. Even in western countries they happily bankrupt suppliers after poaching all their staff. Yet there appears to be shock when they do things considerably less evil... Strange to me.
• ananonymoususer 6y ago
  iSH is awesome. I've been using the beta for about a year (or more) and have provided some feedback to Theodore a few times. This eventuality was almost certain because of the App Store restrictions that have been in place since before the iSH project was launched. In this way, Apple sucks. They have complete control over what an app can and cannot do. There is no alternative (besides jailbreaking) to the Apple App Store for iOS apps. This is part of the deal that you should know about when you buy an iOS product.
• banana_giraffe 6y ago
  > Soon after we released iSH without apk, we found users who had figured out a way to get apk back using wget and were posting about this throughout the internet. We suspect this was the reason why our rejection notice mentioned wget specifically As the writer of one of the links in that sentence, I almost feel bad for making the post I did. Almost. If I hadn't someone else would have, clearly. I'm not some super hacker that discovered a hidden backdoor here. It's frustrating, to say the least, that Apple won't let me do what I want with hardware I own. Yep, I know it's a long standing issue, and I'm not the first one to have this gripe, but this sort of nonsense is why I'm moving away from the Apple ecosystem. Once you piss off your power users, I wonder if the ecosystem will survive for long. Then again, maybe I'm just having a "get off my lawn" moment, and Apple is on the right path. I'm not clairvoyant, I just want to have a nice Mosh client that can run a Python script to find an IP and open a firewall hole. But nope, that's evil scripting, I guess.
  • Valkhyr 6y ago
    > Then again, maybe I'm just having a "get off my lawn" moment, and Apple is on the right path. No, you are not wrong, and they are not on the right path, except maybe for themselves. They have no right at all to tell people what they can and cannot do on devices that we paid for, and it's damned time that antitrust regulations somewhere forced them to allow sideloading and alternative app stores.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • teruakohatu 6y ago
    Why feel bad? It allowed me to run R, sandboxed, on my iPad. The world was a better place for a couple of weeks.
• gigatexal 6y ago
  This sucks. Please don’t do this Apple
• sheeshkebab 6y ago
  Is Apple really expecting developers to port their tools to the arm macs with their iOS policies (that I’m sure they are salivating to establish for macOS). Good luck to them and their iOS developer minions.
  • andrekandre 6y ago
    if in the end, tactics like this drive technically minded people away from their platforms, it will in the end, hurt them (less innovative and polished apps)... its sad... i remember the days when os x was hitting home run after home run, and polished third-party (many indie) innovative apps were flourishing... maybe im just being nostalgic idk
  • zepto 6y ago
    Why wouldn’t they? Macs and iOS devices are for completely different purposes.
    • sheeshkebab 6y ago
      What’s such a special purpose for a Mac? Running Xcode? This lock down will just get worse as they allow running iOS apps on macs and developers start hacking these things to bits and bypassing AppStore. Apple will have no choice but to make macOS basically follow iOS model.
      • zepto 6y ago
        Maybe, or maybe they’ll just tolerate some amount of piracy on the Mac. It wouldn’t impact iOS at all, so it wouldn’t be any worse than the current situation.
• headmelted 6y ago
  Don’t build software for Apple devices. It’s a pretty straightforward solution. Apple has shown time and again that they’ll crush your project/business in an instant without recourse or a second thought. Nothing on the App Store, regardless of whether it complies with Apple’s policies currently or not, has any guarantee it won’t be disappeared tomorrow for non-compliance when the wind blows in a different direction (like any number of parental control apps prior to Screen Time).
  • zepto 6y ago
    Did those parental control apps actually work? I wasn’t aware iOS actually provided enough low level access for 3rd parties to develop anything like that.
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      Generally they relied on profiles that restricted access to certain applications and added VPNs to sinkhole traffic to undesirable domains.
      • zepto 6y ago
        So basically a crude and unsupported hack. I’m not surprised they didn’t keep them in the store.
• userbinator 6y ago
  Apple clearly does not want you to have a general-purpose computer: https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html Everything is done with "security" as an excuse because it's hard to argue against[1], but I think people are slowly starting to see through that. Apple wants to control every aspect of your life, and if you let it, it will. I wonder whether those who work at Apple and are responsible for doing such things really understand the implications, and whether they agree with it... [1] Except with that classic Franklin quote.
  • catlifeonmars 6y ago
    Many people, although certainly not everyone, are perfectly ok with this. I, for one, don’t have the expectation that my iOS devices are general purpose computers. I have the expectation that the device works with zero configuration for a set of fixed purposes in a design language that I’m accustomed to. That’s it.
    • pshc 6y ago
      Exactly! When I’m on my phone I want to use the internet, take pictures, use banking apps, access email and Dropbox, and watch video. That’s mostly it. I don’t expect or want to be productive, as security is more important.
      • ratww 6y ago
        > use banking apps Coming from a country where at some point the only way to have internet banking was to install an impossible-to-uninstall rootkit in my own machine that fucked up accessibility, messed up Steam and made it impossible for me from using competitors (because other banks needed incompatible rootkits), iOS being the way it is makes a lot of sense. I once had to spend a whole weekend untangling the mess made by one of these rootkits in my father's computer. I remember it screwed with his ability to use third-party USB digital signing dongles, which he needed for his company to operate. The bank's rootkit basically prevented him from conducting business, and since he needed both bank and emitting digital receipts, the only solution was creating another partition. I'm not even expecting security at this point, I just want to use the damn thing without some asshole bank developer ruining it forever (or until I reformat the machine).
• iddan 6y ago
  How does Apple expect the iPad to replace personal computers when it sabotages attempts to bring powerful dev tools to iOS again and again?
• sp527 6y ago
  It’s just a matter of time before they come after code push. We’re all going to regret being serfs cowed by the Apple hegemony.
• cgijoe 6y ago
  Call me crazy, but I'll bet this has something to do with youtube-dl and the RIAA DMCA takedown. Apple probably got wind that you could install youtube-dl on iSH and "infringe" on copyright.
  • jsjohnst 6y ago
    As the old saying goes, “correlation != causation”
• jshen 6y ago
  I’ve been all in on Apple for about 15 years, but have been slowly moving away as it gets harder to use their products for development and power usage. Got a windows laptop recently, and the developer experience is much better than Mac OS which surprised me. Thinking about getting a surface pro to replace my iPad for traveling. Edit: the only thing that keeps me on the iPhone right now is that their hardware (chips in particular) are so much better.
  • jackson1442 6y ago
    Make sure to grab one of the more mature Surface lines. My original Surface Pro had bad thermals; melted the adhesive for the display off. Friend had a Surface Book 1 snap in his bag, and another friend had a Surface Pro X die on him ~2 weeks after buying it. Interestingly enough, all these issues only happened on the first version of each product line.
    • jshen 6y ago
      Thanks.
• syrrim 6y ago
  >The nature of iSH meant that this problem was fundamental, as users can always add back functionality that we remove. That's the point, isn't it? When I had an iphone, I always understood that there are no local terminal apps because apple banned them. They shifted the rules slightly since then to make it easier to make apps for teaching programming, but the goal was never to make generic dev environments. When I heard about this app, I assumed there had been a fairly fundamental change in the sorts of apps apple allowed. It seems like no such change occurred - apple just didn't notice what the app was doing until after it was released. Good on the iSH people for giving it a shot. I doubt they'll break through the apple wall, but there's always a chance.
  • enragedcacti 6y ago
    it isn't really a local shell. As they describe it, it's an x86 interpreter, and therefore all of the code you run is sandboxed and isolated from the OS the same way as a Python interpreter would be. Python would let you make a network request, pull code down, and exec() it, so this doesn't really seem that different.
    • syrrim 6y ago
      The wording of the app store guideline is here: >https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#software-requirements https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sof... >Educational apps designed to teach, develop, or allow students to test executable code may, in limited circumstances, download code provided that such code is not used for other purposes. "in limited circumstances", "provided that such code is not used for other purposes". This is worded generically enough that they can pretty much ban anything that downloads code with it. They also have this: >Such apps must make the source code provided by the Application completely viewable and editable by the user. Arguably, allowing a user to download binary code instead of source code is expressly banned. While it would be nice if apple took the stick out of their ass for once, I can't say I'm surprised by this development.
      • Osiris 6y ago
• kimsant 6y ago
  This year I build qoob, an app to interact with an IOT electric scooter parking. In August I had the MVP ready, we build 2 prototypes and could save and charge scooters of all voltages in office halls. The project is not my main job, so time is precious. I was asked to create a new functionality: Allow companies to buy and borrow e-scooters between company employees. But what happened is that I had to implement Apple Login, since FB and Google did work already. Who should I take care off? Apple or the customer/users? Is it optimal to prioritize the Apple Login, that nobody requested? I don't care about monopoly persse, I'm concerned because it doesn't let me be user-centric, consumer-centric. (and I can't leave apple, because I can't leave my users)
  • kimsant 6y ago
    if anyone is curious: https://en.qoobers.com/ https://en.qoobers.com/
  • cstejerean 6y ago
    So you implemented Apple Login and none of your users use it?
    • Osiris 6y ago
      I read the comment as "I have limited time and must be wise about what I spend it on. Apple is forcing me to spend time on something I don't want to as other things are more important". Apple is controlling his product roadmap. Whether people use it or not is not the point. It's the it's the opportunity cost of having built something else that would have been MORE impactful to customers.
    • kimsant 6y ago
      I implemented Apple Login. Took me about 2 months, since I do it on weekends, and had to move the deployment of the back-end microservices to a ci/cd docker instance since .so files of openssl can't be compiled in mac and used in linux ( i use Aws lambdas). And of course, I have a MAC because HOW else I would BUILd and Archive my ApPLE XCOdE IOS app haahah? In my prev company we had a Mac machine plugged with SSh to Jenkins!!! GOd! A company that has 700milion visitors A MONtH is forced to do this! You see, the problem is they force my choices All the time, and by forcing it I have to make bad decisions.
• jp0d 6y ago
  This is one thing that I hate the most about IOS. I like the polished look and the usability. To be completely honest, I don't need to have a shell running on my phone. I'm not going to write a shell script to automate anything on the tiny screen of my iPhone 8. iSh is an emulator anyway! But, like many other curious users, I don't want to lose the ability to do it. Especially when the hardware is a lot more capable that what the OS supports. I understand that Apple does it for "security" purposes!! They should at least enable this on iPad OS. May be warn the users about the "perils" of "foreign code'! I've been using iSH since the TestFlight days. I played around and downloaded packages. Even downloaded Perl! Now that's gone. I can sideload it using Xcode, but not everyone has a Mac to do it.
  • neop1x 6y ago
    People using these closed consoles can always run Linux in the browser [1] to fullfill those needs. [1] https://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://bellard.org/jslinux/
• musicale 6y ago
  Apple is walking a fine line here. I understand on one hand Apple wants to prevent Epic from installing their own competing app store on iOS, and they also probably don't want to be sued by Nintendo for hosting emulators (even if emulators are probably legal.) It's pretty obvious that a) it's Apple's walled garden so they can mostly do what they want, b) the vast majority of iOS apps are games and c) other game platforms are similarly restrictive. On the other hand, Apple probably doesn't want to kill Scriptable or Pythonista (and I don't want them to either.) One of the nicest features of iOS (and macOS) is that you can use scripting apps and languages to construct workflows that use multiple apps, access the internet, etc.. Scriptable and Pythonista are also useful as personal programming and learning platforms. Good luck I guess.
• altspace 6y ago
  I've been following iSH for a while and was very happy when it finally came out of beta. iOS needs a good shell and iSH seemed perfect. I actually thought this will fit into apple's strategy of marketing ipad as a replacement for Laptop
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• Razengan 6y ago
  Google lets banks remotely disable phones [0]: 114 points in 11 hours Google lets apps prevent users from taking screenshots [1]: 315 points in 14 hours Devs on HN shrug it off when an app screws over users, but they take to pitchforks when an app is removed. There's also a heavy bias in favor of Google and against Apple on HN, but Apple does nothing nearly as hostile to users, and so millions of people will continue to happily give their money to Apple. Only user-hostile developers fail to understand this and clamor for Apple's restrictions to be weakened so they can prey more freely upon users. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25026050 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25026050 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25025066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25025066
• enos_feedler 6y ago
  I will say it again. The one thing Apple will try to defend is the concept of an app/container. I wrote a similar comment supporting their actions with video game streaming platforms the other day[1]. Any app that creates some kind of a wedge into another kind of app/container ecosystem is not going to fly. I do believe this will get solved by having a store within a store model. It just means all the packages/apps that are run from within the other platform will need to have some kind of listing/metadata shared and controllable in some fashion by Apple. The interesting thing will be the relationship with devs. Does Apple need to have a direct one or not? 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25022746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25022746
  • mmastrac 6y ago
    Unless you are China/WeChat
    • enos_feedler 6y ago
      I don't think other Chinese companies would get away with it, but WeChat yes. It isn't really a China thing. It's a platform power balance thing. Do you think Apple wants to give WeChat that wedge/leak? It is an obvious special circumstance given the market circumstances. As I said before, I think store within a store is coming it's just not ready yet. You can be sure whatever Apple comes up with will fit the needs of WeChat and they will be coerced into using it.
• steve_taylor 6y ago
  I hope play.js isn’t next. It lets users install packages from npmjs.
• moonchild 6y ago
  > Precompiled builds of iSH (distributed as IPA files) will remain available [...] for jailbroken users. Is there any reason to use iSH over the native system shell when jailbroken?
  • judge2020 6y ago
    iSH runs Alpine Linux which might be easier to get precompiled packages for given the popularity of it in the Docker ecosystem - using the actual system terminal requires a lot more setup and precompiled binaries might be hard to find for arm64 (or you might end up compiling a bunch of stuff you need, if it's even compatible). But the precompiled IPA file is usable outside of jailbreaks since there are programs[0,1] which sign and install an IPA for non-jailbroken devices. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25030348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25030348 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25028786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25028786
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Aside from possibly having the program you want precompiled, it's a pretty good terminal–we know of users who SSH into localhost to use it as their terminal app of choice.
• siraben 6y ago
  Update from tbodt on the iSH Discord: @everyone We got a call this evening from someone who runs App Review. They apologized for the experience we had, then told us they've accepted our appeal and won't be removing iSH from the store tomorrow. We'll stay in contact with them to work out details. Thanks everyone for your support!
• saagarjha 6y ago
  Hi, Saagar from the iSH team here. We received a call from someone who runs App Review at Apple earlier this evening. They apologized for our review experience, telling us that they've accepted our appeal and that they will not be removing iSH from sale tomorrow. We'll work out the details with them in the coming days. A huge thanks to all of you for your support of iSH!
  • xuki 6y ago
    I’m happy for iSH, and I have no doubt Apple reversed their stance because the community has been so vocal about this. I feel for all the small devs who has apps removed from the App Store for similar reasons and never had a chance to fight.
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      If this is you, we want to hear what you have to say: https://twitter.com/iSH_app/status/1325682737223643137 https://twitter.com/iSH_app/status/1325682737223643137. We'll bring it up with Apple on your behalf.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• hoppla 6y ago
  Any applications that is (by accident http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complet... ) turing complete is not allowed on AppStore?
• person_of_color 6y ago
  Is this built on qemu?
• ubermonkey 6y ago
  Honest question: What would this app be useful for?
• HunterWare 6y ago
  #unpopularopinion: If someone wants an Android experience they should buy an Android phone where iSH functionality is basically built it. iSH is cool, but they were skirting the rules and everyone knows it. This isn’t shocking, and there were bound to be hiccups on the fringes of the rules like this. If you want a phone for just getting the normal stuff done in a curated world, then pick iOS as that’s what they are trying to do. If you want a phone/device that is wide open to play with, extend, and hack on in a basically open manner, then pick Android as that’s what they are trying to do. What seems like a waste of time is to pick one side and then complain about it not being enough like the other side. Pick your flavor, the world offers both. And then quit whining if the other side is more successful by some metric... Make your chosen side better or switch.