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That only reduces the problem a bit though, it's not a sustainable solution. We also need to produce plastics that can and will be recycled. Taxation and legisl

That only reduces the problem a bit though, it's not a sustainable solution. We also need to produce plastics that can and will be recycled. Taxation and legislation could be drivers for improvements.

triceratops 6y ago
> That only reduces the problem a bit though, it's not a sustainable solution. Why not? We lived quite happily with a fraction of the plastic usage 60 years ago. It's possible to continue using plastic for critical use-cases like medicine, or engineering uses like aircraft or automobiles where there are no good substitutes, while phasing out consumer usage. I'd happily take my refillable shampoo bottle, soy sauce bottle, and milk bottle to be filled at the store.
- powersnail 6y ago
  I actually want to do that. I do purchase refills whenever possible, and I hope such mechanisms are more accessible. It's ridiculous how many things are thought of as "disposable" today. For instance, any hand wash comes with a pretty good and durable dispenser. But rarely do I see refills being sold, except when you specifically search for it online. And pens, especially ball pens. The outfit is perfectly reusable, while rarely do I see the refill being sold. Instead, it's just 20 ball pens sold in a giant bundle. It's like they want to encourage you to throw away everything.
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    Buy expensive pens like Parker. They have refills. Of course the refills cost more than an entire cheap pen, but you want refills, not cheap.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      I want cheap and refills. Reuse should be cheaper than buying new everything. Pricing today is backwards because it externalizes the costs of throwaway everything. We collectively pay the price of cheap, unrepairable, unrefillable, un-re-usable goods.
      - Jtsummers 6y ago
        Using a fountain pen, refilled from an ink bottle, is not too expensive. Buy a $20-30 Lamy Safari as a good first pen (the shape of the grip helps to ensure you hold it correctly). Unless you're writing novels by hand, a smaller ink bottle will last a long time. I've not had to buy new pens or new ink for a couple years (I'll need to buy more ink soon). I keep a couple ballpoint pens around for random things where that's easier (what they can write on, not all papers take fountain pen inks very well). I don't buy those, they're usually the freebies given away by car dealerships, doctors, banks, whatever. I use them until they stop writing.
        triceratops 6y ago
        Forget pens. What about the other day-to-day consumer goods? Toiletries, food products?
  - bluGill 6y ago
    I've seen pen refills, but they end up having as much packaging as cheap throw away pens.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - djrogers 6y ago
    Target sells refills for many of the brands of hand soap they carry right on the same shelf next to the small dispensers...
    - triceratops 6y ago
      Which come in large plastic bottles...
      - ploxiln 6y ago
        but the volume to surface-area ratio increases as the size of the object increases, bigger is better
        triceratops 6y ago
        I'd like the fresh-ground coffee model for soap, shampoo, detergent, cleaning products, food products. Aisle filled with dispensers that I can fill my own bottle with, have it weighed at checkout. That's way less waste.
tw04 6y ago
It's a pain but we could switch to glass containers or wax-lined cardboard for a large portion of things that come in plastic containers almost overnight. That's ignoring things as basic as: if I need a plastic shampoo bottle... let me refill it? Why am I throwing that away after one use? For that matter why is it plastic instead of stainless steel?
- jfim 6y ago
  Convenience. It's easier for people to throw away the plastic bottle, green wash it because it gets "recycled", then buy another one. On an individual level, one can reduce their plastic consumption by using things that are not packaged in plastic (eg. powdered laundry detergent, bar soap, powdered shampoo, and so on). It's a bit trickier for many perishable foods in the US (eg. milk, yogurt, frozen foods), since many things are not available in non-plastic containers, but this could be solved by regulation.
- enchiridion 6y ago
  Isn't synthetic wax petroleum based?
ogre_codes 6y ago
> We also need to produce plastics that can and will be recycled. We need to use recyclable and biodegradable materials or at a minimum, just biodegradable materials (Or relatively bio harmless materials like glass). Even in the best cases, some percentage of material won't get recycled. In many cases, plastic should be replaced by something other than more plastic.
bluGill 6y ago
I prefer to think of plastics that break down easily. Some plastics can be composted. Landfills already capture methane emissions, so a plastic that breaks down to methane and other simple (safe) things in a landfill is ideal: we get energy out of waste. (Breaking down in a landfill is a tricky problem)

triceratops 6y ago

> That only reduces the problem a bit though, it's not a sustainable solution. Why not? We lived quite happily with a fraction of the plastic usage 60 years ago. It's possible to continue using plastic for critical use-cases like medicine, or engineering uses like aircraft or automobiles where there are no good substitutes, while phasing out consumer usage. I'd happily take my refillable shampoo bottle, soy sauce bottle, and milk bottle to be filled at the store.

powersnail 6y ago
I actually want to do that. I do purchase refills whenever possible, and I hope such mechanisms are more accessible. It's ridiculous how many things are thought of as "disposable" today. For instance, any hand wash comes with a pretty good and durable dispenser. But rarely do I see refills being sold, except when you specifically search for it online. And pens, especially ball pens. The outfit is perfectly reusable, while rarely do I see the refill being sold. Instead, it's just 20 ball pens sold in a giant bundle. It's like they want to encourage you to throw away everything.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  Buy expensive pens like Parker. They have refills. Of course the refills cost more than an entire cheap pen, but you want refills, not cheap.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    I want cheap and refills. Reuse should be cheaper than buying new everything. Pricing today is backwards because it externalizes the costs of throwaway everything. We collectively pay the price of cheap, unrepairable, unrefillable, un-re-usable goods.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      Using a fountain pen, refilled from an ink bottle, is not too expensive. Buy a $20-30 Lamy Safari as a good first pen (the shape of the grip helps to ensure you hold it correctly). Unless you're writing novels by hand, a smaller ink bottle will last a long time. I've not had to buy new pens or new ink for a couple years (I'll need to buy more ink soon). I keep a couple ballpoint pens around for random things where that's easier (what they can write on, not all papers take fountain pen inks very well). I don't buy those, they're usually the freebies given away by car dealerships, doctors, banks, whatever. I use them until they stop writing.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        Forget pens. What about the other day-to-day consumer goods? Toiletries, food products?
- bluGill 6y ago
  I've seen pen refills, but they end up having as much packaging as cheap throw away pens.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- djrogers 6y ago
  Target sells refills for many of the brands of hand soap they carry right on the same shelf next to the small dispensers...
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Which come in large plastic bottles...
    - ploxiln 6y ago
      but the volume to surface-area ratio increases as the size of the object increases, bigger is better
      - triceratops 6y ago
        I'd like the fresh-ground coffee model for soap, shampoo, detergent, cleaning products, food products. Aisle filled with dispensers that I can fill my own bottle with, have it weighed at checkout. That's way less waste.

tw04 6y ago

It's a pain but we could switch to glass containers or wax-lined cardboard for a large portion of things that come in plastic containers almost overnight. That's ignoring things as basic as: if I need a plastic shampoo bottle... let me refill it? Why am I throwing that away after one use? For that matter why is it plastic instead of stainless steel?

jfim 6y ago
Convenience. It's easier for people to throw away the plastic bottle, green wash it because it gets "recycled", then buy another one. On an individual level, one can reduce their plastic consumption by using things that are not packaged in plastic (eg. powdered laundry detergent, bar soap, powdered shampoo, and so on). It's a bit trickier for many perishable foods in the US (eg. milk, yogurt, frozen foods), since many things are not available in non-plastic containers, but this could be solved by regulation.
enchiridion 6y ago
Isn't synthetic wax petroleum based?

ogre_codes 6y ago

> We also need to produce plastics that can and will be recycled. We need to use recyclable and biodegradable materials or at a minimum, just biodegradable materials (Or relatively bio harmless materials like glass). Even in the best cases, some percentage of material won't get recycled. In many cases, plastic should be replaced by something other than more plastic.

bluGill 6y ago

I prefer to think of plastics that break down easily. Some plastics can be composted. Landfills already capture methane emissions, so a plastic that breaks down to methane and other simple (safe) things in a landfill is ideal: we get energy out of waste. (Breaking down in a landfill is a tricky problem)