16 ms·

And it's totally okay! Because nobody died, we all get a nice laugh, and the AI will be tweaked to make it better. It's the kind of move-fast-and-break-things t

by qzw 6y ago

And it's totally okay! Because nobody died, we all get a nice laugh, and the AI will be tweaked to make it better. It's the kind of move-fast-and-break-things that I can get behind.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ramoz 6y ago
I don't like this mindset. AI is greenfield for everyone and the consequences seem greater than any modern innovation. e.g. Tesla deaths.
- ncallaway 6y ago
  I think the parent was saying it's context dependent. AI for controlling a football camera, sure, move fast and break things. Why not. AI for controlling a moving motor vehicle, maybe we should be extremely cautious about our testing and use of AI.
bartread 6y ago
I totally get your perspective... but you're clearly not a fan of either team involved.
- fastball 6y ago
  If someone's day is ruined because the AI camera was following a bald ref, they should probably take a step back and re-evaluate what's actually important in life.
  - Fomite 6y ago
    "I was looking forward to watching my favorite local team as an outlet for the massive stress of living through a global pandemic, and instead it kept zooming to the ref's head" is, at the very least, reasonably a massive let down.
mc32 6y ago
Probably just the training data not including enough bald people...
- viraptor 6y ago
  I'm sure the training data also didn't include this person http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/SklFgSPQOdI/AAAAAAAAGiE/o_-Q5LI3hnc/s400/ball-buzz.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/SklFgSPQOdI/AAAAAAAAGi... And it's just bound to happen at some point.
- devmunchies 6y ago
  Or it misclassified the training data too and they didn’t catch it. It’s not like AI engineers manually run all varieties of footage against the trained model to check accuracy.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  This is not about training data I think the ML specialists often forget there's a gap between pattern matching and solving a problem The problem here is: locating a ball and moving the camera If you just try to find a ball on static image by static image you're going to have a bad time. Even worse if you try to find only the ball but without the play contexts (kicking, flying, being held, etc) Balls "teleport" but not always Yes, a ball can be on top of a player, but not all the time So, no, if you didn't see the ball go there, it didn't suddenly appear in the middle of the field (but then again, with some exceptions).
  - papaf 6y ago
    If you just try to find a ball on static image by static image you're going to have a bad time. This isn't the point you were making, but as an aside, I think converting video into static images is throwing away useful information. Most video codecs work by encoding the changes between video frames which includes movement information. It seems hard, but worthwhile, to use this information for object recognition. I just did a search and saw that these techniques go by the name "compressed domain analysis" [1]. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=compressed+domain+analysis&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=comp...
loeg 6y ago
Next time they'll have the bald ref wear a hat.
- meekrohprocess 6y ago
  Or they'll paint their head like a soccer ball to make sure that the updated AI works properly. These sorts of failures demand stress-tests. What if a future team has a soccer-ball-headed mascot?
  - inopinatus 6y ago
    We can certainly foresee a future, one the uncharitable might call dystopian, in which all the humans have been barcoded with purpose & capability metadata so that AIs can process them more efficiently.
    - phreack 6y ago
      It's already begun to gestate, some external things are found to be easier to change than fixing software https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam...
    - cmroanirgo 6y ago
      It's ironic, especially when the obvious engineering solution would be to add tracking paint/sigils on the ball... and doubly ironic when the engineering solution would be unlikely to be accepted.
      - oarsinsync 6y ago
        Only ironic to software developers. The engineers who produced the ball understand that changing the properties of the ball in that way would reflect in the aerodynamic properties of the ball, which gets fixed at the start of competition. It’s not hard to fix your software that you created. It’s much harder to get global consensus on a change that wasn’t required before your buggy code was released into the wild.
ddevault 6y ago
It's not that great. Remember that a real person used to do this work, and they've been replaced by a buggy robot in the name of cost savings. That's one fewer job on the market. That real person would also have been able to do things like direct the camera to follow whatever was most important - even if it wasn't happening next to the ball.
- chmod775 6y ago
  People need to realize that we're quickly heading towards a world that won't need as much human labor as we have available. And that's a good thing. There's only so many bullshit paper-pushing jobs and useless over-budget infrastructure projects we can create to make up for the lack of work. A better way to deal with too much labor on the market would be setting government-mandated maximum work-hours, so as to spread the amount of available work evenly among the entire populace. Secondly - for those countries where this isn't a reality yet - school and university should be free and you should receive government aid while attending them, to allow those out of a job to learn new skills or just pursue their interests.
  - kzrdude 6y ago
    It's only a good thing if we can turn around our societies to handle this new reality and where we can keep our political and enconomical freedoms, including of course a chance at a decent living
    - Viliam1234 6y ago
      A four-day workweek would be a nice start.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    That'd be better for us, sure, but I think it is more likely that those at the top will will simply find a way to reduce the excess labor class.
  - giovannibonetti 6y ago
rriepe 6y ago
Is it, though? These are soccer fans we're talking about. An AI misreporting a loss for a win or a win for a loss could completely change the tone of the post-game riot.
suyash 6y ago
You wouldn't say that is the camera was assisting with a serious surgery or firing a military rocket, it's not okay, we need to make sure the bar is set very high and there needs to be penalties/ fines for mistakes if we are going to jump on the fully autonomous bandwagon.
- tdeck 6y ago
  Those applications already have higher standards for general software reliability, to say nothing of AI. Obviously the bar is different for different applications.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  That sounds wildly out of proportion for a soccer match where you can just recheck the footage
  - cmroanirgo 6y ago
    Considering that at least a cameraman has lost his job recently, there's always going to be a social cost to moving to pure tech. It's never just one thing (ie. It's not just a soccer match)
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  No rockets, no surgery here. Just a game. It's probably ok to lower the budget by an order of magnitude and open a ticket in Jira after the match.
- jader201 6y ago
  > You wouldn't say that is the camera was assisting with a serious surgery or firing a military rocket No you wouldn’t. But it’s not. “Move fast, break things” is perfectly ok for certain applications, such as recreational AI. Nobody said it’s ok for medical or military applications. You can live in a world where the bar for quality control varies depending on the application. Experimentation will never happen if we set medical/military grade expectations across the board.

by qzw 6y ago

And it's totally okay! Because nobody died, we all get a nice laugh, and the AI will be tweaked to make it better. It's the kind of move-fast-and-break-things that I can get behind.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ramoz 6y ago

I don't like this mindset. AI is greenfield for everyone and the consequences seem greater than any modern innovation. e.g. Tesla deaths.

ncallaway 6y ago
I think the parent was saying it's context dependent. AI for controlling a football camera, sure, move fast and break things. Why not. AI for controlling a moving motor vehicle, maybe we should be extremely cautious about our testing and use of AI.

bartread 6y ago

I totally get your perspective... but you're clearly not a fan of either team involved.

fastball 6y ago
If someone's day is ruined because the AI camera was following a bald ref, they should probably take a step back and re-evaluate what's actually important in life.
- Fomite 6y ago
  "I was looking forward to watching my favorite local team as an outlet for the massive stress of living through a global pandemic, and instead it kept zooming to the ref's head" is, at the very least, reasonably a massive let down.

mc32 6y ago

Probably just the training data not including enough bald people...

viraptor 6y ago
I'm sure the training data also didn't include this person http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/SklFgSPQOdI/AAAAAAAAGiE/o_-Q5LI3hnc/s400/ball-buzz.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/SklFgSPQOdI/AAAAAAAAGi... And it's just bound to happen at some point.
devmunchies 6y ago
Or it misclassified the training data too and they didn’t catch it. It’s not like AI engineers manually run all varieties of footage against the trained model to check accuracy.
raverbashing 6y ago
This is not about training data I think the ML specialists often forget there's a gap between pattern matching and solving a problem The problem here is: locating a ball and moving the camera If you just try to find a ball on static image by static image you're going to have a bad time. Even worse if you try to find only the ball but without the play contexts (kicking, flying, being held, etc) Balls "teleport" but not always Yes, a ball can be on top of a player, but not all the time So, no, if you didn't see the ball go there, it didn't suddenly appear in the middle of the field (but then again, with some exceptions).
- papaf 6y ago
  If you just try to find a ball on static image by static image you're going to have a bad time. This isn't the point you were making, but as an aside, I think converting video into static images is throwing away useful information. Most video codecs work by encoding the changes between video frames which includes movement information. It seems hard, but worthwhile, to use this information for object recognition. I just did a search and saw that these techniques go by the name "compressed domain analysis" [1]. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=compressed+domain+analysis&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=comp...

loeg 6y ago

Next time they'll have the bald ref wear a hat.

meekrohprocess 6y ago
Or they'll paint their head like a soccer ball to make sure that the updated AI works properly. These sorts of failures demand stress-tests. What if a future team has a soccer-ball-headed mascot?
- inopinatus 6y ago
  We can certainly foresee a future, one the uncharitable might call dystopian, in which all the humans have been barcoded with purpose & capability metadata so that AIs can process them more efficiently.
  - phreack 6y ago
    It's already begun to gestate, some external things are found to be easier to change than fixing software https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam...
  - cmroanirgo 6y ago
    It's ironic, especially when the obvious engineering solution would be to add tracking paint/sigils on the ball... and doubly ironic when the engineering solution would be unlikely to be accepted.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      Only ironic to software developers. The engineers who produced the ball understand that changing the properties of the ball in that way would reflect in the aerodynamic properties of the ball, which gets fixed at the start of competition. It’s not hard to fix your software that you created. It’s much harder to get global consensus on a change that wasn’t required before your buggy code was released into the wild.

ddevault 6y ago

It's not that great. Remember that a real person used to do this work, and they've been replaced by a buggy robot in the name of cost savings. That's one fewer job on the market. That real person would also have been able to do things like direct the camera to follow whatever was most important - even if it wasn't happening next to the ball.

chmod775 6y ago
People need to realize that we're quickly heading towards a world that won't need as much human labor as we have available. And that's a good thing. There's only so many bullshit paper-pushing jobs and useless over-budget infrastructure projects we can create to make up for the lack of work. A better way to deal with too much labor on the market would be setting government-mandated maximum work-hours, so as to spread the amount of available work evenly among the entire populace. Secondly - for those countries where this isn't a reality yet - school and university should be free and you should receive government aid while attending them, to allow those out of a job to learn new skills or just pursue their interests.
- kzrdude 6y ago
  It's only a good thing if we can turn around our societies to handle this new reality and where we can keep our political and enconomical freedoms, including of course a chance at a decent living
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    A four-day workweek would be a nice start.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  That'd be better for us, sure, but I think it is more likely that those at the top will will simply find a way to reduce the excess labor class.
- giovannibonetti 6y ago

rriepe 6y ago

Is it, though? These are soccer fans we're talking about. An AI misreporting a loss for a win or a win for a loss could completely change the tone of the post-game riot.

suyash 6y ago

You wouldn't say that is the camera was assisting with a serious surgery or firing a military rocket, it's not okay, we need to make sure the bar is set very high and there needs to be penalties/ fines for mistakes if we are going to jump on the fully autonomous bandwagon.

tdeck 6y ago
Those applications already have higher standards for general software reliability, to say nothing of AI. Obviously the bar is different for different applications.
bobthepanda 6y ago
That sounds wildly out of proportion for a soccer match where you can just recheck the footage
- cmroanirgo 6y ago
  Considering that at least a cameraman has lost his job recently, there's always going to be a social cost to moving to pure tech. It's never just one thing (ie. It's not just a soccer match)
ARandomerDude 6y ago
No rockets, no surgery here. Just a game. It's probably ok to lower the budget by an order of magnitude and open a ticket in Jira after the match.
jader201 6y ago
> You wouldn't say that is the camera was assisting with a serious surgery or firing a military rocket No you wouldn’t. But it’s not. “Move fast, break things” is perfectly ok for certain applications, such as recreational AI. Nobody said it’s ok for medical or military applications. You can live in a world where the bar for quality control varies depending on the application. Experimentation will never happen if we set medical/military grade expectations across the board.