5 ms·

I think permanent DST makes more sense. The best hours of the day are in the evening. Folks are off from work, kids are home, the heat of the day is gone. It’s

I think permanent DST makes more sense. The best hours of the day are in the evening. Folks are off from work, kids are home, the heat of the day is gone. It’s a great time to get out to a park or a stroll.

mannykannot 6y ago
I too hate the idea of losing an hour off summer evenings. Of course, the rational solution is for society to adjust its schedule, but that will never happen.
- interestica 6y ago
  I mean if there was ever a time for it to happen, a worldwide pandemic might be it.
- Aaargh20318 6y ago
  But you'll be gaining an hour of summer nights. With DST, the sun goes down way too late, around 10pm in summer. With the climate as it currently is, summers have become unbearably hot and this will probably get worse in the future. When I get home from work on a summer day, around 18:00-ish. being outside is unbearable. It doesn't get comfortable outside until the sun goes down. By moving the clock forward, you're reducing the number of hours you can actually spend outside. Summer nights are great, summer evenings aren't. Either keep the standard time or move the clock backward during summer to maximise the number of hours you can actually spend outside, instead of the amount of sunlight.
  - animal_spirits 6y ago
    It really depends on where you live, where I am at in the Midwest United States, as soon as I'm off from work in the summer I want to spend every waking minute outside if possible
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    That's really interesting. The sun goes down at the same time for me during the summer, but I love it. Where do you live perchance? (Actually everyone in this thread should probably be prefacing their comments with their location, as it's very important for this topic).
    - Aaargh20318 6y ago
      The Netherlands. This year we again had a summer a lot of >35ºC days. You couldn't be outside without applying copious amounts of sunscreen and it was just uncomfortably hot in the sun. Nights were great though.
  - rimliu 6y ago
    No, thank you. The last thing I want is the sun waking me up at 2:30am.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Society constantly shifts the schedules, so the adaption would be done in a few years.
tom_ 6y ago
I like DST too. (I'm at 55.4° N.) It would probably be a bit much in the winter for many, though, as daylight here would end up something like 9 am-6 pm. Very dark in the mornings, and you don't get much in the way of extra useful evening times.
- ghaff 6y ago
  The biggest win with DST is probably in the 40s of latitude or so. A lot further south and you don't have as much variation of light across the year so you might as well pick a suitable timezone and stick with it. A lot further north and there just isn't enough light in the winter to effectively use on a workday if you're indoors and there's lots of light in the summer so picking the ideal wakeup time isn't a big deal.
  - tom_ 6y ago
    Indeed... where I am, over winter, it's generally daylight for, like, 8-9 hours. (Winter solstice is 7.5 hours daylight.) So pick your poison! I know what I like (which is to start work whenever, but at least leave when it was light within living memory), but it's always going to suck, at least a bit, whatever you do.
throw0101a 6y ago
> I think permanent DST makes more sense. The chronobiologists disagree: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541...
- crazygringo 6y ago
  The problem with the purely biological perspective is that it's too narrow. Psychology matters too. The benefit of an extra hour of light in summer evenings is measured in happiness. You can read a book in the park, play frisbee with friends, eat outdoors with family, with all the happiness that summer light produces. Nobody's measured it, but I have to believe that the increased happiness, reduced stress, and therefore increased health has got to far outweigh any small effects on circadian rhythms.
  - buzzy_hacker 6y ago
    I agree. And don't forget about an extra hour of light in the winter! It gets dark around 4:30pm in New York during standard time, it's depressing.
    - tzs 6y ago
      What difference would it make if it got dark at 5:30 pm in the winter? That's still too close to the end of the standard 9-5 day to make much, if any, difference in what you can do before dark.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        And you pay for that hour in the morning when kids are going to school, adults are commuting to work, construction workers are working, etc. Indeed this is basically the whole reason we switch back and forth between standard time and DST.
Aaargh20318 6y ago
That's why we should either use standard time year-round, or even better: introduce MST (Moonlight Saving Time). where we move the clock an hour backward (instead of forward) during summer so we have more evening to enjoy.
globular-toast 6y ago
Set your alarm one hour earlier then. No need to inflict your choice on everyone.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  You don't choose your kid's school schedule, and many people don't choose their work schedule either.
odiroot 6y ago
> the heat of the day is gone Or it's actually warm enough to go out and enjoy ourselves, for us folks in the northern part of Europe for like half a year.
_ph_ 6y ago
That is mostly an illusion. Over time, the day cycle aligns with the sun, not what the clock says. People in places which are on the west side of the corresponding timezone tend to do things later than those on the east side. And since introduction of the DST, a lot of countries shifted their typical timepoints towards "later" to compensate for it.
tzs 6y ago
The problem with that in more northern latitudes is permanent DST pushes the morning commute deep into darkness. From a safety perspective, if you have to have one of the morning or evening commute in darkness, it is safer to have that one be the evening commute. There are a couple reasons for this. 1. Mornings tend to be colder than evenings. In fact, the early mornings before sunrise are often the coldest time of the day. You are more likely to have icy roads in the morning, more likely to have snow on the roads, more likely to have fog. If you have to drive in the dark, evening dark is usually safer. 2. Schedules are more in sync in the morning. People tend to start out of the home activities over a narrower time range than the range of times they return to the home. In particular, school gets out early enough that most non-adults are home before it gets dark in the evening, greatly reducing the number of pedestrians and bikes that people driving in the evening dark have to contend with compared to those in the morning dark.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Then maybe people don’t need to work at the same time in the winter, or work fewer hours. Maybe let’s take advantage of the efficiencies that technology has provided.
  - tzs 6y ago
    If we had that kind of flexibility, it would actually be a further argument against permanent DST. If people want the extra summer daylight to occur after work instead of split between before and after, go to work earlier or work fewer hours. If we could get that kind of flexibility, it would be great. People could aim for the biologically best schedule, which would be to go to sleep at night without setting an alarm and let the rising light in the morning wake you up.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      I wouldn’t care what time it is as long as it doesn’t change back and forth during the year.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago

mannykannot 6y ago

I too hate the idea of losing an hour off summer evenings. Of course, the rational solution is for society to adjust its schedule, but that will never happen.

interestica 6y ago
I mean if there was ever a time for it to happen, a worldwide pandemic might be it.
Aaargh20318 6y ago
But you'll be gaining an hour of summer nights. With DST, the sun goes down way too late, around 10pm in summer. With the climate as it currently is, summers have become unbearably hot and this will probably get worse in the future. When I get home from work on a summer day, around 18:00-ish. being outside is unbearable. It doesn't get comfortable outside until the sun goes down. By moving the clock forward, you're reducing the number of hours you can actually spend outside. Summer nights are great, summer evenings aren't. Either keep the standard time or move the clock backward during summer to maximise the number of hours you can actually spend outside, instead of the amount of sunlight.
- animal_spirits 6y ago
  It really depends on where you live, where I am at in the Midwest United States, as soon as I'm off from work in the summer I want to spend every waking minute outside if possible
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  That's really interesting. The sun goes down at the same time for me during the summer, but I love it. Where do you live perchance? (Actually everyone in this thread should probably be prefacing their comments with their location, as it's very important for this topic).
  - Aaargh20318 6y ago
    The Netherlands. This year we again had a summer a lot of >35ºC days. You couldn't be outside without applying copious amounts of sunscreen and it was just uncomfortably hot in the sun. Nights were great though.
- rimliu 6y ago
  No, thank you. The last thing I want is the sun waking me up at 2:30am.
_ph_ 6y ago
Society constantly shifts the schedules, so the adaption would be done in a few years.

tom_ 6y ago

I like DST too. (I'm at 55.4° N.) It would probably be a bit much in the winter for many, though, as daylight here would end up something like 9 am-6 pm. Very dark in the mornings, and you don't get much in the way of extra useful evening times.

ghaff 6y ago
The biggest win with DST is probably in the 40s of latitude or so. A lot further south and you don't have as much variation of light across the year so you might as well pick a suitable timezone and stick with it. A lot further north and there just isn't enough light in the winter to effectively use on a workday if you're indoors and there's lots of light in the summer so picking the ideal wakeup time isn't a big deal.
- tom_ 6y ago
  Indeed... where I am, over winter, it's generally daylight for, like, 8-9 hours. (Winter solstice is 7.5 hours daylight.) So pick your poison! I know what I like (which is to start work whenever, but at least leave when it was light within living memory), but it's always going to suck, at least a bit, whatever you do.

throw0101a 6y ago

> I think permanent DST makes more sense. The chronobiologists disagree: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541...

crazygringo 6y ago
The problem with the purely biological perspective is that it's too narrow. Psychology matters too. The benefit of an extra hour of light in summer evenings is measured in happiness. You can read a book in the park, play frisbee with friends, eat outdoors with family, with all the happiness that summer light produces. Nobody's measured it, but I have to believe that the increased happiness, reduced stress, and therefore increased health has got to far outweigh any small effects on circadian rhythms.
- buzzy_hacker 6y ago
  I agree. And don't forget about an extra hour of light in the winter! It gets dark around 4:30pm in New York during standard time, it's depressing.
  - tzs 6y ago
    What difference would it make if it got dark at 5:30 pm in the winter? That's still too close to the end of the standard 9-5 day to make much, if any, difference in what you can do before dark.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      And you pay for that hour in the morning when kids are going to school, adults are commuting to work, construction workers are working, etc. Indeed this is basically the whole reason we switch back and forth between standard time and DST.

Aaargh20318 6y ago

That's why we should either use standard time year-round, or even better: introduce MST (Moonlight Saving Time). where we move the clock an hour backward (instead of forward) during summer so we have more evening to enjoy.

globular-toast 6y ago

Set your alarm one hour earlier then. No need to inflict your choice on everyone.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
You don't choose your kid's school schedule, and many people don't choose their work schedule either.

odiroot 6y ago

> the heat of the day is gone Or it's actually warm enough to go out and enjoy ourselves, for us folks in the northern part of Europe for like half a year.

_ph_ 6y ago

That is mostly an illusion. Over time, the day cycle aligns with the sun, not what the clock says. People in places which are on the west side of the corresponding timezone tend to do things later than those on the east side. And since introduction of the DST, a lot of countries shifted their typical timepoints towards "later" to compensate for it.

tzs 6y ago

The problem with that in more northern latitudes is permanent DST pushes the morning commute deep into darkness. From a safety perspective, if you have to have one of the morning or evening commute in darkness, it is safer to have that one be the evening commute. There are a couple reasons for this. 1. Mornings tend to be colder than evenings. In fact, the early mornings before sunrise are often the coldest time of the day. You are more likely to have icy roads in the morning, more likely to have snow on the roads, more likely to have fog. If you have to drive in the dark, evening dark is usually safer. 2. Schedules are more in sync in the morning. People tend to start out of the home activities over a narrower time range than the range of times they return to the home. In particular, school gets out early enough that most non-adults are home before it gets dark in the evening, greatly reducing the number of pedestrians and bikes that people driving in the evening dark have to contend with compared to those in the morning dark.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
Then maybe people don’t need to work at the same time in the winter, or work fewer hours. Maybe let’s take advantage of the efficiencies that technology has provided.
- tzs 6y ago
  If we had that kind of flexibility, it would actually be a further argument against permanent DST. If people want the extra summer daylight to occur after work instead of split between before and after, go to work earlier or work fewer hours. If we could get that kind of flexibility, it would be great. People could aim for the biologically best schedule, which would be to go to sleep at night without setting an alarm and let the rising light in the morning wake you up.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I wouldn’t care what time it is as long as it doesn’t change back and forth during the year.
kwhitefoot 6y ago