6 ms·

If you knew their life would be misery and toil, would you have kids? I'm terrified for mine.

bambataa 6y ago
This is something I think about a lot. The most important is to keep things going. Our descendants might have terrible lives for a thousand generations and it would be worth it if it means humanity can get to better times on the other side. The only reason we’ve had all this wealth and ease to squander is because of those who went before us.
- petercooper 6y ago
  I am hugely optimistic about humanity and technology and believe we will get through this just fine. I say this to qualify my question here: Our descendants might have terrible lives for a thousand generations and it would be worth it if it means humanity can get to better times on the other side. Would it be worth it? There is likely no net loss for the universe if we or even the entire Earth disappeared overnight and that might be better than thousands of generations suffering painfully over thousands of years.
  - bambataa 6y ago
    Are you happy to be alive, knowing that untold ancestors lived comparatively short and brutish lives
    - aesclepius 6y ago
      In the immortal words of the GOP, "Fuck you, got mine."* *But no not necessarily, but at the same time I had a lack of autonomy in regards to those decision made.
    - petercooper 6y ago
      I have sorrow and compassion for all humans who have had a hard life, but I don't feel any obligations either to or from my ancestors. I was questioning your assertion that centuries of "terrible lives" (which, to me, seems a regression for most) would be an acceptable price to pay for "better times" later on. Compared to the past 1000 years where life has, in the main, improved gradually generation after generation, I feel this assertion at least deserves to be questioned.
      - lopmotr 6y ago
        Terrible life is always better than no life because the person living it has the choice to kill themselves. If it lasts 1000s of generations, then obviously they will have chosen life, so it's worth giving it to them.
  - chr1 6y ago
    Why do you think suffering is worse than not existing? If they find their suffering to be unbearable they can end their lives, But unlike us they will have more information to make such a decision. With suffering they have a chance to at least achieve something, so we should not be ones deciding to discard their lives.
    - petercooper 6y ago
      If I have two children and do not wish to have a third, should I feel any guilt for the hypothetical "discarded" child's inability to experience life? I contend that as they will never exist, I have no obligation towards them.
      - chr1 6y ago
        If you have resources to support the third child, and you chose to not spend them on the child, you should feel some guilt for slowing down the progress of humanity. There is limited time until a meteorite hits the earth, or CO2 runs out, or some other life ending event happens on earth, and the more people live until that, the more possibilities we will be able to explore leading to higher likelihood that we discover new science and art increasing liveable space and improving everyone's life. If you look at the history, every discovery was made due to very rare and specific combination of factors, and the only way to create such combinations is by trying many life paths in parallel.
        webmaven 6y ago
        > If you have resources to support the third child, and you chose to not spend them on the child, you should feel some guilt for slowing down the progress of humanity. Perhaps concentrating attention on two children makes it that much more likely that they will have longer, fulfilling lives, and grace us with their eventual wisdom, rather than all three grubbing in the rubble of a collapsed civilization. Sure, the odds of either path don't change much based on the single decision of whether to have another child, but every little bit helps, right?
    - everdrive 6y ago
- dogecoinbase 6y ago
  There is no other side. We've used all of the easily-accessible high-energy-density resources on the planet -- once technology drops below the critical level necessary to produce wind/solar/hydro/nuclear, we'll never be able to recover a high-energy society. We'll never get off the earth, let alone out of the solar system. And even if we waited millions of years, bacteria has learned to digest lignin, so there will never be another Carboniferous Period.
core-questions 6y ago
Everyone's life is some variety of misery and toil. I'm not especially worried for my children because spending time on worry is illogical and counterproductive - sure, things could go badly, but as long as I am always doing everything in my power to ensure my children do well, I can rest with an easy conscience no matter what happens.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Johnjonjoan 6y ago
  >sure, things could go badly, but as long as I am always doing everything in my power to ensure my children do well, I can rest with an easy conscience no matter what happens. Sad. Sorry to hear it. It's always a shame when an intelligent person chooses to ignore the sacrifice every one of their descendents will make, just so that they don't have to risk the potential of having any hardship themselves.
  - mpfundstein 6y ago
    when was the last time you experienced true joy?
    - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
      Ironically enough, when I was writing that comment. If you read the comment chain you'll realise why.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    [edited to note that I missed this was ironically reframing words back to the first commenter, which zaps my grump out of the water. Sorry!] Interpreting "I am always doing everything in my power to ensure my children do well" as "you won't risk having the potential of any hardship yourself" is startlingly ungenerous.
    - 6y ago
saiya-jin 6y ago
Imagine medieval peasant, which was most of the population ever. What they would give to live our lives! Toil? Are you kidding me? We have it better than some 120 billion human being before us. Concepts like basic freedom, education, healthcare were not a right that most ever had. Watching half of your kids die before age of 5 from something a set of pills cures now? Your wife risking her life with every delivery? Dying of very minor wounds, when flu is killer that covid can only dream about? I could go on like that for very long time... No, our life isn't a misery and toil in any western society, unless we make mistakes and chose such a path. My isn't for example, nor is most people I know. Its kind of sad to see how weak we have become. 100 years ago a mutated flu killed 100 million people which was significant chunk of global population, right after the most horrible war mankind has ever experienced, and people got through. We can get through almost anything. Its properly sad what's happening. As a nature, travel and adventure lover my heart weeps, but I have no doubt mankind will get through this. There is still so much beauty out there. I am not naive anymore we will get much wiser while getting through this, but somehow we will manage. Till then, taking it day by day, enjoying the little things life so often gives us, enjoying friends and family... that's still a great life to live. Only few in the history had such a luck. I am definitely not terrified for my kids.
- sedachv 6y ago
  > Imagine medieval peasant, which was most of the population ever. Maybe instead of using your imagination and whatever garbage you saw in a Hollywood movie, you can read accounts of how native people lived in places like North America up until a few hundred years ago.
  - korantu 6y ago
    I think you missed the point where majority of people now having access to things that were not invented/widely awailable as recent as beginning of last century. It is not specific to a place
jimbokun 6y ago
A lot less misery and toil than almost everyone that came before them.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  How do you know? We have 80 years to go in this century: there is no war yet but we have the covid pandemic, inequality, mental health issues ‘pandemic’, obesity/diabetes ‘pandemic’, rapid climate change. We now close our eyes to stuff that does not bother us directly like devastating destruction of the amazon, attacks on armenia, several dictators using covid to assert unlimited powers etc, all of which would deserve global military intervention imho and thus wars, but do not, makes it a matter of who you ask if this is ‘worse or better’. Agreed, over all it is better for ‘everyone’ but we have a solid 80 years to mess this up and turn the tables. Hope we do not but I for one do not think it looks good; this state is fragile, not robust. We have the money and technology this time around to prevent things, but not sure if we will. Handling of Covid and the many dictators, racism, immigration issues etc are not good signs we learned much from 100 years ago. Covid being the most obvious (spanish flu followed the same curve); let’s see how the rightwing/populist will be handled in the coming 10 years to see if we even can learn.

This is something I think about a lot. The most important is to keep things going. Our descendants might have terrible lives for a thousand generations and it would be worth it if it means humanity can get to better times on the other side. The only reason we’ve had all this wealth and ease to squander is because of those who went before us.

petercooper 6y ago
I am hugely optimistic about humanity and technology and believe we will get through this just fine. I say this to qualify my question here: Our descendants might have terrible lives for a thousand generations and it would be worth it if it means humanity can get to better times on the other side. Would it be worth it? There is likely no net loss for the universe if we or even the entire Earth disappeared overnight and that might be better than thousands of generations suffering painfully over thousands of years.
- bambataa 6y ago
  Are you happy to be alive, knowing that untold ancestors lived comparatively short and brutish lives
  - aesclepius 6y ago
    In the immortal words of the GOP, "Fuck you, got mine."* *But no not necessarily, but at the same time I had a lack of autonomy in regards to those decision made.
  - petercooper 6y ago
    I have sorrow and compassion for all humans who have had a hard life, but I don't feel any obligations either to or from my ancestors. I was questioning your assertion that centuries of "terrible lives" (which, to me, seems a regression for most) would be an acceptable price to pay for "better times" later on. Compared to the past 1000 years where life has, in the main, improved gradually generation after generation, I feel this assertion at least deserves to be questioned.
    - lopmotr 6y ago
      Terrible life is always better than no life because the person living it has the choice to kill themselves. If it lasts 1000s of generations, then obviously they will have chosen life, so it's worth giving it to them.
- chr1 6y ago
  Why do you think suffering is worse than not existing? If they find their suffering to be unbearable they can end their lives, But unlike us they will have more information to make such a decision. With suffering they have a chance to at least achieve something, so we should not be ones deciding to discard their lives.
  - petercooper 6y ago
    If I have two children and do not wish to have a third, should I feel any guilt for the hypothetical "discarded" child's inability to experience life? I contend that as they will never exist, I have no obligation towards them.
    - chr1 6y ago
      If you have resources to support the third child, and you chose to not spend them on the child, you should feel some guilt for slowing down the progress of humanity. There is limited time until a meteorite hits the earth, or CO2 runs out, or some other life ending event happens on earth, and the more people live until that, the more possibilities we will be able to explore leading to higher likelihood that we discover new science and art increasing liveable space and improving everyone's life. If you look at the history, every discovery was made due to very rare and specific combination of factors, and the only way to create such combinations is by trying many life paths in parallel.
      - webmaven 6y ago
        > If you have resources to support the third child, and you chose to not spend them on the child, you should feel some guilt for slowing down the progress of humanity. Perhaps concentrating attention on two children makes it that much more likely that they will have longer, fulfilling lives, and grace us with their eventual wisdom, rather than all three grubbing in the rubble of a collapsed civilization. Sure, the odds of either path don't change much based on the single decision of whether to have another child, but every little bit helps, right?
  - everdrive 6y ago
dogecoinbase 6y ago
There is no other side. We've used all of the easily-accessible high-energy-density resources on the planet -- once technology drops below the critical level necessary to produce wind/solar/hydro/nuclear, we'll never be able to recover a high-energy society. We'll never get off the earth, let alone out of the solar system. And even if we waited millions of years, bacteria has learned to digest lignin, so there will never be another Carboniferous Period.

core-questions 6y ago

Everyone's life is some variety of misery and toil. I'm not especially worried for my children because spending time on worry is illogical and counterproductive - sure, things could go badly, but as long as I am always doing everything in my power to ensure my children do well, I can rest with an easy conscience no matter what happens.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Johnjonjoan 6y ago
>sure, things could go badly, but as long as I am always doing everything in my power to ensure my children do well, I can rest with an easy conscience no matter what happens. Sad. Sorry to hear it. It's always a shame when an intelligent person chooses to ignore the sacrifice every one of their descendents will make, just so that they don't have to risk the potential of having any hardship themselves.
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  when was the last time you experienced true joy?
  - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
    Ironically enough, when I was writing that comment. If you read the comment chain you'll realise why.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  [edited to note that I missed this was ironically reframing words back to the first commenter, which zaps my grump out of the water. Sorry!] Interpreting "I am always doing everything in my power to ensure my children do well" as "you won't risk having the potential of any hardship yourself" is startlingly ungenerous.
  - 6y ago

saiya-jin 6y ago

Imagine medieval peasant, which was most of the population ever. What they would give to live our lives! Toil? Are you kidding me? We have it better than some 120 billion human being before us. Concepts like basic freedom, education, healthcare were not a right that most ever had. Watching half of your kids die before age of 5 from something a set of pills cures now? Your wife risking her life with every delivery? Dying of very minor wounds, when flu is killer that covid can only dream about? I could go on like that for very long time... No, our life isn't a misery and toil in any western society, unless we make mistakes and chose such a path. My isn't for example, nor is most people I know. Its kind of sad to see how weak we have become. 100 years ago a mutated flu killed 100 million people which was significant chunk of global population, right after the most horrible war mankind has ever experienced, and people got through. We can get through almost anything. Its properly sad what's happening. As a nature, travel and adventure lover my heart weeps, but I have no doubt mankind will get through this. There is still so much beauty out there. I am not naive anymore we will get much wiser while getting through this, but somehow we will manage. Till then, taking it day by day, enjoying the little things life so often gives us, enjoying friends and family... that's still a great life to live. Only few in the history had such a luck. I am definitely not terrified for my kids.

sedachv 6y ago
> Imagine medieval peasant, which was most of the population ever. Maybe instead of using your imagination and whatever garbage you saw in a Hollywood movie, you can read accounts of how native people lived in places like North America up until a few hundred years ago.
- korantu 6y ago
  I think you missed the point where majority of people now having access to things that were not invented/widely awailable as recent as beginning of last century. It is not specific to a place

jimbokun 6y ago

A lot less misery and toil than almost everyone that came before them.

tluyben2 6y ago
How do you know? We have 80 years to go in this century: there is no war yet but we have the covid pandemic, inequality, mental health issues ‘pandemic’, obesity/diabetes ‘pandemic’, rapid climate change. We now close our eyes to stuff that does not bother us directly like devastating destruction of the amazon, attacks on armenia, several dictators using covid to assert unlimited powers etc, all of which would deserve global military intervention imho and thus wars, but do not, makes it a matter of who you ask if this is ‘worse or better’. Agreed, over all it is better for ‘everyone’ but we have a solid 80 years to mess this up and turn the tables. Hope we do not but I for one do not think it looks good; this state is fragile, not robust. We have the money and technology this time around to prevent things, but not sure if we will. Handling of Covid and the many dictators, racism, immigration issues etc are not good signs we learned much from 100 years ago. Covid being the most obvious (spanish flu followed the same curve); let’s see how the rightwing/populist will be handled in the coming 10 years to see if we even can learn.