11 ms·

You know how poorly programming is represented in movies and tv series makes you realize how wrong they probably are about every other topic? Well, as a Swede I

You know how poorly programming is represented in movies and tv series makes you realize how wrong they probably are about every other topic? Well, as a Swede I can tell you that this article is trying too hard about selling the idea that friluftsliv is something unique to the Nordic countries. just like when media tries to sell hygge (coziness) and fika (taking a break) as concepts that are unique, almost impossible to understand by reading alone, to the Nordic countries when in fact they are universal human concepts. An appreciation of and desire to be in nature is part of almost every society on the planet. The difference is if we can afford to be in nature and if we have access to it. The part about allemansrätten, which is the right go access nature and lands which don't belong to you, is correct though and I don't think many countries grant their citizens those rights.

vosper 6y ago
> this article is trying too hard about selling the idea that friluftsliv is something unique to the Nordic countries Is there a name for this? Can we call it "Wellness clickbait"? It's definitely a thing: "What we could learn from the [country that's somewhat 'exotic'] art of [a word in their native language, maybe translated]" Here's a good one: "Hever Castle is encouraging visitors to try the Japanese art of forest bathing". What is forest bathing, you ask? "Forest bathing, or shinrin-yoku is simply spending time outdoors under the canopy of trees to improve health and wellbeing". But "Follow the Japanese art of forest bathing" is a much better headline than "try going for a walk in the forest". https://www.kentonline.co.uk/whats-on/news/follow-the-japanese-art-of-forest-bathing-234572/ https://www.kentonline.co.uk/whats-on/news/follow-the-japane...
- Legogris 6y ago
  As a Swede living in Japan, I get this a lot from both directions! It goes further than "wellness" too. My pet peeve is getting asked "I [heard/read] that people put chips in their arms there?!" (presumably for payments..?) - both by Swedes about Japan and Japanese about Sweden. One difference I absolutely do see is what it means to "go camping". Growing up it usually meant bring your gear, hike out, picking some spot in the wilderness. In Japan that's something that is quite rare, "camping" almost always involves campsites.
  - tannhaeuser 6y ago
    Might have to do with Scandinavia's vastly different population density and right to camp wherever you want in the Fjell (made possible by said population density).
    - Legogris 6y ago
      I really don't think so - outside of the metro and city areas, Japan has no shortage of really rural areas. If anything I wonder if it can have to do with topology and vegetation (Sweden being flat in comparison and most of the fjäll are still quite campable due to sparse vegetation). It's also a bit of chicken-and-egg thing with normalization in the culture - wherever you go in Japan you can generally find affordable accommodation not too far, whereas in Sweden it's more of a luxury.
      - Ailete619 6y ago
        I also live in Japan, and IMO topology (mountain slopes are not ideal to camp, most of the flat areas being owned, you'll get the police called on you), fauna (bears, poisonous snakes, big wasps/bees, monkeys), overgrown vegetation(in the really wild areas), the possibility of natural disasters (floods, mud/land slides, ...) explain why the the risk-wary Japanese people prefer campsites. Campsites are also great because you can rent all the equipment you'll only need once a year, for the summer camp few days with your family as the Japanese working force does not have a lot of holidays. Also the equipment can get expensive fast if you want to camp comfortably, and would require storing space the Japanese people do not have at home and thus would need to rent ... Nevetheless, I think camping is getting popular and more and more people are buying equipment.
        Legogris 6y ago
        Yeah, that's along what I think as well - apart from that I think the "getting police called on you" factor is neither a real risk nor something that really stops people from doing it. And it has indeed been a growing trend in the last couple of years, specifically with heavy imagery and inspiration from Scandinavia.
- pjc50 6y ago
  "Orientalism"? Exoticism? The wellness industry is particularly prone to it, but in general there's a weird social proof thing that humans are prone to doing where ideas and practices aren't evaluated on their own merits but by who's doing them. So people end up roleplaying or cosplaying their imagined version of some other country.
- athenot 6y ago
  > But "Follow the Japanese art of forest bathing" is a much better headline than "try going for a walk in the forest". Though poorly-worded, it can challenge us to look at mundane things with a fresh point of view. Yes it's still a simple walk in the forest. No, there's no magical Avatar-style glow of light envelopping us and varying with each step we take in the forest. But in a world where everything is edulcorated by marketing and by superlatives (think Instagram "perfectness"), it can be easy to loose sight of how wonderful a simple walk in a humble forest can be. The same trail in the same woods will never look the same twice. Same trees that don't move, yet things change in subtle ways with both fauna and flora which evolve within this life-sustaining playground. I have never heard this described as "the Japanese art of forest bathing", yet that describes a walk in the woods rather well. Of course, like any new novelty that comes our way, it's always possible to just cargo-cult it because it sounds cool and not realize what it's trying to get at. And you are right, this is further encouraged by the wellness clickbait. But I'd like to suggest it's possible to look beyond that.
Barrin92 6y ago
>An appreciation of and desire to be in nature is part of almost every society on the planet. There are definitely differences between cultures when it comes to this, in particular when it includes raising children. Being German I actually got a lot of confused looks when we had American friends over and they noticed that young kids over here just go grab their bike, drive off and play in the nearby forest all day. They seemed totally shocked that ten year olds just run off and play in nature.
- mc32 6y ago
  Did that change after the case (quite some years ago) a girl was abducted on her way home and the abductor wanted to ransom her but the underground room he built to hold her hostage was poorly ventilated and she died of CO poisoning and at least for a time some people became somewhat more concerned about their kids roaming freely? Sometimes freak events have an oversized effect on people. In the US people used to park their baby strollers outside stores while they went shopping. One day, I think in the mid 50s, on Long Island, I believe, a family’s sleeping toddler in a stroller/pram was abducted and scared everyone from leaving their kids unattended in a stroller.
- Sharlin 6y ago
  I think the US is an outlier there though, being a relatively low-trust society and somehow really fixated on threats, real or imaginary, especislly when it comes to children. But I guess helicopter parenting is a rather recent phenomenon even there; historically children above ten years or do were widely regarded as ”small adults” and expected to take care of themselves, help in all sorts of chores, and often to go to work as well.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    60 years ago maybe, even in the 90s I ran the streets like a tiny hooligan without a care as long as I was back at home by the time dark came we were all good as long as I maintained my grades and chores. I know lots of parent like that around here, I'm sure the media would like you to think all parents are helicoptering in the USA but they really aren't.
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bedobi 6y ago
Couldn't agree more about how annoying it is that Nordic countries are always described as super exceptional. Even allemansrätten is almost always described in very inaccurate and exaggerated terms, as if you could pitch a tent on some monopoly hat wearing rich person's lawn and there's nothing they can do about it. Just no, that's not how it works. Take it from someone who grew up in Sweden but left as soon as I could - I hate to burst your bubble, but Nordic countries aren't heaven on earth now and never have been. I also have many, many non-Nordic friends who realized their dreams of moving there, only to leave after a year or two because reality didn't align with their nonsensical, wildly inaccurate ideas about what life there should be like.
- flemhans 6y ago
  Samfundssind is another recent one: https://nypost.com/2020/10/24/danish-word-samfundssind-may-become-2020s-hottest-term/ https://nypost.com/2020/10/24/danish-word-samfundssind-may-b...
  - dairylee 6y ago
    > “putting the concern of society higher than one’s own interests.” I don't think there's any worry of that taking off in the US.
- fogihujy 6y ago
  Heh, it probably works both ways though, especially considering Nordic medias' manic obsession with eveything from the US. But hey, at least it got me to stop watching TV and go outside more.
- eesmith 6y ago
  It looks like your sampling has a bias error. If you don't live in Sweden any more, how do you make friends with the non-Nordics who moved to one of the Nordic countries and decided to stay there? Certainly you likely go to Sweden to visit, but how many non-Nordic friends, who have been there for more than a year or two, are you making during that time?
prawn 6y ago
I agree, and as the audience for this article, Americans are not miles off having that outdoor appreciation sorted. Underdone for holidays and accessing through private land sure, but they get a lot else right and (as an Australian) I'm quite envious of how broad the outdoor appreciation is across all age categories, especially at college age. The national parks are epic. State parks and national forests have great access opportunities given the NPs are often busy. In the west especially, there is a lot of BLM land to use and get away from everyone. There are RVers, families and college kids camping. In Australia we have grey nomads, 4WD convoys, families camping and travel couples touring around, but no real equivalent to the college kids camping in Yosemite or similar. The US has enough national forests and BLM land (at least in the west) that I don't think the right of way is especially missed?
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  You don't need to go as far as the USA to find that kind of appreciation, just look over to our friendly Kiwi neighbours.
- ghaff 6y ago
  >at least in the west Yes. Much more in the western US than elsewhere given vast swaths of land are owned by the federal government and (especially outside of national parks) offer largely unregulated ability to hike and camp. It's different and considerably more remote from, say, taking a long distance walk in England in ways that are both better (for some) and worse (for some).
  - prawn 6y ago
    I think it's excellent. A few simple rules (max stays, don't dump rubbish, etc) and then more or less freedom for the people that like that. We have "crown land" here in Australia but it's not promoted or branded with a neat brand/concept that encapsulates it as well. Often the "bush camping" is tolerated or at the mercy of individual councils (counties, I guess). Roadtripped and camped across the US twice last year, and the jump in camping opportunities once you get to Colorado heading west is awesome.
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iamthepieman 6y ago
In the rural Northeast U.S. where I live you are allowed to walk on and explore private land that you don't own unless it's "posted". To post your land you must display an official sign (available in hardware stores) every 120 meters and at every corner of your land. You also need to date every sign every year and register your land as posted with your town or city. Posted land may still be accessed with the permission of the land owner. We enjoy skiing and bird watching often on our neighbors lands in this way.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  Granted, I'm from the US and live in Norway - so I might be wrong - but I'm not sure if that would be all that legal in Norway. Yes, you may own the expanse of wood, but if you aren't actively using it for things, folks can walk there and camp there. I don't have to get permission. In the US, I'd be trespassing and could expect police to say something. For a long time, it felt like I was doing something wrong or illegal.
  - iamthepieman 6y ago
    Not sure about other states but unless it's posted you can use other people's land. This is true for my state and several of the surrounding ones in the Northeast U.S. You only have to get permission if it's posted. regardless of posting status, written permission is required for certain activities such as driving and camping on private land.
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      The only thing I see in a search is mainly speaking about beaches [1]: Can they not call about you trespassing? Or do many people simply not actually care? Can you just park by the side of the road and go walking in the woods? Because ultimately, that's what I have here. I can just park off of the side of the road so long as it isn't blocking anyone and go off into the woods. I can do that and camp. Or sleep in the car, even. Without being worried about any trouble whatsoever. I can do this hours away from home without needing to know who owns the land. Indiana doesn't need signs: If a local cop sees your out-of-town plates parked by the road or sees you in someone else's woods, they are going to ask about it. Lots of folks don't care all that much, however, especially if you aren't camping or hunting, so if they see you, they might say hi but that's about it. (Parents had some acres of woods, and didn't care with the exception of hunters - they wanted to know when hunters were about so they didn't let kids or dogs in the woods without proper safety colors).
throw0101a 6y ago
> You know how poorly programming is represented in movies and tv series makes you realize how wrong they probably are about every other topic? Michael Crichton put a label on something related this: > Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward-reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story-and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read with renewed interest as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about far-off Palestine than it was about the story you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know. * https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann#Quotes_about_Gell-Mann https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann#Quotes_about_... The talk in which Crichton mentions this was discussed: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20803989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20803989
BurningFrog 6y ago
I also suspect "allemansrätten" is more a result of low population density than some unique nordic sharing culture.
- mongol 6y ago
  If I would research this, I would look at historical evidence of how free the peasantry class have been in relation to landowners, and how the society was set up under feudalism, the extent of serfdom, and see how strong that correlation is with current right-to-roam regulations.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    I think Scandinavian peasants were alone in Europe to never have been serfs. Which probably has cultural effects even today. One explanation I've seen is that if the nobility got to aggressive, Swedish peasants could always go hide in the forest for a while. ...which is something you can do in a low population density land, and we're full circle :)
    - rvense 6y ago
      Danish peasants were serfs for a period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavnsb%C3%A5nd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavnsb%C3%A5nd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vornedskab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vornedskab
      - jacobush 6y ago
        Sounds more like what China is doing, you need a pass to move to the city.
    - vidarh 6y ago
      The Black Death also helped a lot. It reset a lot of property relationships by leaving a lot of free land after farmers and their whole families died out - in Norway it took about 200 years before most of the farms were back in operation, and when the population was expanding again there were tax breaks for restarting farms. We can see the extent of it today in the prevalence of last names like Ødegård, Ødegaard and similar (literally "deserted farm"), and similar place names.
mongol 6y ago
I think in general you are right. But appreciation for being outdoors comes in different flavours. In Sweden I think many children have been imprinted to appreciate friluftsliv through Skogsmulle, a kind of fairy tale cartoon character, usually an adult dressed up and taking small hikes with children in a nearby forest. While there, teaching kids to not throw trash in nature, about Allemansrätten and its freedoms and responsibilities. Another could be the emphasis to learn many types of flower and tree species in biology in school. When I went to school I found that boring and useless but have later realized it being part of building a closer familiarity with the outdoors. Like ancestry in some ways. Perhaps the HN crowd could enlighten on this. I have heard that there is not as much emphasis on this abroad. A third example, the focus on Orienteering as a sport in school. When I went to school, it was certainly the most emphasised of all the types of sports we learned and practised in gym class. The only one that got it's own day regularily. I think it was once a semester, reliable as clockwork.
- shybutnotshy 6y ago
  I feel like I did some analog of all of those in my USA school. We even went to week long camps in the mountains and snow ("in nature"). We have/had popular TV programs for kids that emphasize "the environment" and "nature".
toomanybeersies 6y ago
Fika sounds exactly like having a smoko (smoke break) in Australia
- fogihujy 6y ago
  Sounds about right.
ineedasername 6y ago
I'm waiting for the article about the Nordic ritual of toalettet and how it is a deeper, more meaningful experience for communing with one's own waste products.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
The article is specifically targeting people in the Pacific Northwest (presumably of the US, though parts of PNW include parts of Canada). The US is prone to thinking 'You go outside in nice weather" and this article is aimed at rebutting that notion and explicitly saying "You can enjoy the great outdoors in any kind of weather." I live in a small town in Washington. Not long after I moved here, I saw a video that listed this town as one of the ten worst cities to live in for Washington state. It listed high unemployment, high drug use and the big zinger was fewest sunny days. I hear all kinds of trash talk about the weather out here which both amuses and aggravates me because I moved here for the very temperate weather. I live without a car and it rarely gets below freezing here and it rarely gets all that hot. It rains a lot and I wish there were more awnings in the downtown area, but the rain tends to be light, so I don't care that much. I grew up in Georgia which has terrible, terrible storms on a regular basis. The article also explicitly states that Seattle has "deep Scandinavian roots." So it is trying to appeal to locals in a way that they should be able to readily identify with and embrace. This is not a generic article. It is very much a localized article with a particular audience and time and place in mind. And for that reason, the references make a lot of sense.
- twoWhlsGud 6y ago
  Indeed. As someone who lives in Seattle I believe that being able to be out walking and biking year round is one of the best reasons for being here. The weather west of the Cascades is quite temperate - so with some basic gear from Costco or Goodwill (or REI or Patagonia if you want, but it's not necessary) you can go to town pretty much any day (or night) of the year except for rare snow storms and the like. And during Covid, that getting out and about has really helped maintain a positive outlook in this crazy time. Highly recommend it to other NWesterners.
- Daegalus 6y ago
  Ya, I moved to Sammamish, WA from the SF Bay Area, and people make too big of a deal about Washington rain. Ya it rains, but its a normal 4 season type of thing. Rain most of winter with some snow for like 2 weeks. Light showers mixed with sun in the spring. Pretty warm and sunny during the summer but not hot, then light rains and winds in the fall. People made it out and warned me about "Washington Rain" like it was going to be raining 360 days out of the year at torrential levels, with grey/dark skys and the apocalypse. Most of the time the rain is super light and gentle with no wind, and the sky is white if not broken up with blue sky
pelario 6y ago
While I agree with your point of the concept being a universal one, and the title being clickbaity, there is an important point: here the drive to be in the nature seems stronger. It is not about being able to afford it, it is about preferences. I am a foreigner living in Finland and this drive to be in the nature has impressed me, specially taken together with a society that is not very consumerist. In my original country, as well as here, you can use public transportation to go an be in the nature. Here is done much more often than there. Also, the cities are built in a way that respect and keep the nature, it's not about overriding it.
jimnotgym 6y ago
I think it is a universal human concept, but it is not available to every human. We have a very limited right to roam in England and Wales, and much less forest. I see on TV people in Nordic countries camping by a lake and fishing for their dinner in complete solitude. I don't know where I could do that in the UK, except as some kind of paid bushcraft experience...or tresspassing!
- arethuza 6y ago
  Scotland has Scandinavian style "Right to Roam" and wild camping is very popular - you can camp pretty much anywhere you want as long as you follow some sensible rules (some extremely popular areas near to Glasgow have local by-laws controlling camping - but that's a very small part of the country). Here's something to give you a taste of what is possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opAWJnD0Jro&t=40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opAWJnD0Jro&t=40s https://www.visitscotland.com/accommodation/caravan-camping/wild-camping/ https://www.visitscotland.com/accommodation/caravan-camping/... Also if you don't fancy staying in a tent there is a network of bothies where you can stay for free (at least during normal times): https://www.mountainbothies.org.uk/ https://www.mountainbothies.org.uk/
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Scotland is basically Scandinavia light, what with your bairn fishing in the beck and so on.
- vidarh 6y ago
  As a Norwegian living in England, moving here felt like being walled in. Granted I live in London, but it's more than just the lack of land, it also extends to a different culture around things like parks. E.g. opening hours and fences around parks - what the hell is that about? I was just totally confused the first time I got to a park in the evening and it was closed. Part of it of course has to do with density, but to me that just makes it all the more important to protect and ensure as much access as possible. Instead people are herded into as little land as possible, and opening hours imposed on a good chunk of it. Scotland does have similar rights to Scandinavia.
samuell 6y ago
I'm a Swede with two siblings living in Oslo, Norway, and from our chats and their shared photos on our family chat I can tell that either way the Norwegians are clearly more nature inclined than Swedes even. For them, "gå på tur" ("going in a hike tour") is apparently something that can be done more or less any day of the week, while in Sweden you probably plan that for the weekends mostly. Mentioning that as the article was in fact primarily using Norway as an example. But then, also in Sweden I think we might have a somewhat higher inclination to be outside than in many other places. Like, even in the freezing winter, the number of bicyclists commuting to work in Stockholm is quite large.
- originalvichy 6y ago
  I echo this. As a finn with norwegian friends it's the norwegians who are the most nature-loving and it is no suprise since their landscape makes it hard to ignore the elements, and easy to enjoy the views. The finns probably share the extreme relaxation part of nature with swedes. Going to your cabin in the woods with family or friends and leaving your phone on the table to socialize or relax with those around you. A norwegian might like to "relax" by facing the elements and summiting a local mountain :)
  - samuell 6y ago
    Yes, that seems like a pretty apt description :)
mullsork 6y ago
My experience outside the Nordics says somewhat different. > An appreciation of and desire to be in nature is part of almost every society on the planet I would rephrase that as "An appreciation of and desire to be outside in great weather with friends is part of almost every society on the planet." I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but I've met few people who are willing to, for no purpose other than to be outside, go outside in hard wind or light rain. The idea of "go get some fresh air, you'll feel better" doesn't seem to resonate well. > fika What makes the fika culture unique (we have it in Finland too) is not that you decide to go grab a coffee during the work day. For me, it's that _everyone_ takes a break at the same time to have coffee. I only did an internship in tech back home, but even there we would all take a break at 9:30 to sit down, have a coffee, and talk about whatever we came up with. When I hear non-Nordics talk about Nordic culture I get the feeling that they're very focused on what individuals do, whereas the whole point is what people collectively do.
- Tade0 6y ago
  For me, it's that _everyone_ takes a break at the same time to have coffee. I've spent four years in Italy and around 12:00-12:30 the whole country essentially stops and goes for a lunch break - small businesses close etc. The vast majority of restaurants are open during certain hours when there's a chance that people will visit. I read somewhere that before WW2 it was like that in other countries, but died out over the years because of competition. Perhaps what you're describing is a remnant of these times?
  - mullsork 6y ago
    I wasn't thinking about lunch, but that makes sense. It's not as strict or drastic here in Berlin. For a 9-6 office job, I'd say people leave for lunch between 12-13. What I'm thinking of in the Nordics, or Finland especially since I haven't worked in the other ones, are the two coffee breaks that are part of the work day. I've worked in construction and the aforementioned tech internship, and this is roughly how the day looks (offices tend to start one hour later): - 06:50: arrive early, banter, coffee - 07:00: day beings - 09:15: first 15min coffee break - 11:30: lunch break - 14:15: second 15min coffee break - 15:30: day is over I may be off by 15 minutes for the coffee breaks, it's been over a decade since I worked outside of the tech startup bubble. Not sure how things are in Finnish startups, probably slightly different? I miss these "natural" breaks though. On the other hand, I do enjoy having my coffee while working as well. :')
jmkerr 6y ago
This reminds me of this British perspective on the custom of opening a window in Germany, which is indistinguishable from parody for a German: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/30/germans-embrace-fresh-air-to-ward-off-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/30/germans-embrac... > The custom is something of a national obsession, with many Germans habitually opening windows twice a day, even in winter. > Impact ventilation, or Stosslüften, which needs explanation for most people unfamiliar with Germany except for experts in air hygiene, involves widely opening a window in the morning and evening for at least five minutes to allow the air to circulate. Even more efficient is Querlüften, or cross ventilation, whereby all the windows in a house or apartment are opened letting stale air flow out and fresh air come in. > In Germany, windows are designed with sophisticated hinge technology that allows them to be opened in various directions to enable varying degrees of Lüften.
- kzrdude 6y ago
  That's funny, a swedish journalist did a nice report on the same topic, probably for exactly the same reason, or two reasons, really - it's a foreign correspondent, so they always need to have a new topic to report home about and, Merkel had mentioned ventilation/Lüften recently, so it was on topic. Even if it looks like a parody to a German, it is valuable to get an outside look at your own culture to bring a new perspective - I like that too. The article I read included the fact that many renting contracts have conditions about how often it should be ventilated.
mnky9800n 6y ago
This is the same tourist propaganda that comes from Japan too. There's some kind of knowledge or wisdom that the culture only knows and outside people can catch a glimpse of it if they try.

vosper 6y ago

> this article is trying too hard about selling the idea that friluftsliv is something unique to the Nordic countries Is there a name for this? Can we call it "Wellness clickbait"? It's definitely a thing: "What we could learn from the [country that's somewhat 'exotic'] art of [a word in their native language, maybe translated]" Here's a good one: "Hever Castle is encouraging visitors to try the Japanese art of forest bathing". What is forest bathing, you ask? "Forest bathing, or shinrin-yoku is simply spending time outdoors under the canopy of trees to improve health and wellbeing". But "Follow the Japanese art of forest bathing" is a much better headline than "try going for a walk in the forest". https://www.kentonline.co.uk/whats-on/news/follow-the-japanese-art-of-forest-bathing-234572/ https://www.kentonline.co.uk/whats-on/news/follow-the-japane...

Legogris 6y ago
As a Swede living in Japan, I get this a lot from both directions! It goes further than "wellness" too. My pet peeve is getting asked "I [heard/read] that people put chips in their arms there?!" (presumably for payments..?) - both by Swedes about Japan and Japanese about Sweden. One difference I absolutely do see is what it means to "go camping". Growing up it usually meant bring your gear, hike out, picking some spot in the wilderness. In Japan that's something that is quite rare, "camping" almost always involves campsites.
- tannhaeuser 6y ago
  Might have to do with Scandinavia's vastly different population density and right to camp wherever you want in the Fjell (made possible by said population density).
  - Legogris 6y ago
    I really don't think so - outside of the metro and city areas, Japan has no shortage of really rural areas. If anything I wonder if it can have to do with topology and vegetation (Sweden being flat in comparison and most of the fjäll are still quite campable due to sparse vegetation). It's also a bit of chicken-and-egg thing with normalization in the culture - wherever you go in Japan you can generally find affordable accommodation not too far, whereas in Sweden it's more of a luxury.
    - Ailete619 6y ago
      I also live in Japan, and IMO topology (mountain slopes are not ideal to camp, most of the flat areas being owned, you'll get the police called on you), fauna (bears, poisonous snakes, big wasps/bees, monkeys), overgrown vegetation(in the really wild areas), the possibility of natural disasters (floods, mud/land slides, ...) explain why the the risk-wary Japanese people prefer campsites. Campsites are also great because you can rent all the equipment you'll only need once a year, for the summer camp few days with your family as the Japanese working force does not have a lot of holidays. Also the equipment can get expensive fast if you want to camp comfortably, and would require storing space the Japanese people do not have at home and thus would need to rent ... Nevetheless, I think camping is getting popular and more and more people are buying equipment.
      - Legogris 6y ago
        Yeah, that's along what I think as well - apart from that I think the "getting police called on you" factor is neither a real risk nor something that really stops people from doing it. And it has indeed been a growing trend in the last couple of years, specifically with heavy imagery and inspiration from Scandinavia.
pjc50 6y ago
"Orientalism"? Exoticism? The wellness industry is particularly prone to it, but in general there's a weird social proof thing that humans are prone to doing where ideas and practices aren't evaluated on their own merits but by who's doing them. So people end up roleplaying or cosplaying their imagined version of some other country.
athenot 6y ago
> But "Follow the Japanese art of forest bathing" is a much better headline than "try going for a walk in the forest". Though poorly-worded, it can challenge us to look at mundane things with a fresh point of view. Yes it's still a simple walk in the forest. No, there's no magical Avatar-style glow of light envelopping us and varying with each step we take in the forest. But in a world where everything is edulcorated by marketing and by superlatives (think Instagram "perfectness"), it can be easy to loose sight of how wonderful a simple walk in a humble forest can be. The same trail in the same woods will never look the same twice. Same trees that don't move, yet things change in subtle ways with both fauna and flora which evolve within this life-sustaining playground. I have never heard this described as "the Japanese art of forest bathing", yet that describes a walk in the woods rather well. Of course, like any new novelty that comes our way, it's always possible to just cargo-cult it because it sounds cool and not realize what it's trying to get at. And you are right, this is further encouraged by the wellness clickbait. But I'd like to suggest it's possible to look beyond that.

Barrin92 6y ago

>An appreciation of and desire to be in nature is part of almost every society on the planet. There are definitely differences between cultures when it comes to this, in particular when it includes raising children. Being German I actually got a lot of confused looks when we had American friends over and they noticed that young kids over here just go grab their bike, drive off and play in the nearby forest all day. They seemed totally shocked that ten year olds just run off and play in nature.

mc32 6y ago
Did that change after the case (quite some years ago) a girl was abducted on her way home and the abductor wanted to ransom her but the underground room he built to hold her hostage was poorly ventilated and she died of CO poisoning and at least for a time some people became somewhat more concerned about their kids roaming freely? Sometimes freak events have an oversized effect on people. In the US people used to park their baby strollers outside stores while they went shopping. One day, I think in the mid 50s, on Long Island, I believe, a family’s sleeping toddler in a stroller/pram was abducted and scared everyone from leaving their kids unattended in a stroller.
Sharlin 6y ago
I think the US is an outlier there though, being a relatively low-trust society and somehow really fixated on threats, real or imaginary, especislly when it comes to children. But I guess helicopter parenting is a rather recent phenomenon even there; historically children above ten years or do were widely regarded as ”small adults” and expected to take care of themselves, help in all sorts of chores, and often to go to work as well.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  60 years ago maybe, even in the 90s I ran the streets like a tiny hooligan without a care as long as I was back at home by the time dark came we were all good as long as I maintained my grades and chores. I know lots of parent like that around here, I'm sure the media would like you to think all parents are helicoptering in the USA but they really aren't.

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bedobi 6y ago

Couldn't agree more about how annoying it is that Nordic countries are always described as super exceptional. Even allemansrätten is almost always described in very inaccurate and exaggerated terms, as if you could pitch a tent on some monopoly hat wearing rich person's lawn and there's nothing they can do about it. Just no, that's not how it works. Take it from someone who grew up in Sweden but left as soon as I could - I hate to burst your bubble, but Nordic countries aren't heaven on earth now and never have been. I also have many, many non-Nordic friends who realized their dreams of moving there, only to leave after a year or two because reality didn't align with their nonsensical, wildly inaccurate ideas about what life there should be like.

flemhans 6y ago
Samfundssind is another recent one: https://nypost.com/2020/10/24/danish-word-samfundssind-may-become-2020s-hottest-term/ https://nypost.com/2020/10/24/danish-word-samfundssind-may-b...
- dairylee 6y ago
  > “putting the concern of society higher than one’s own interests.” I don't think there's any worry of that taking off in the US.
fogihujy 6y ago
Heh, it probably works both ways though, especially considering Nordic medias' manic obsession with eveything from the US. But hey, at least it got me to stop watching TV and go outside more.
eesmith 6y ago
It looks like your sampling has a bias error. If you don't live in Sweden any more, how do you make friends with the non-Nordics who moved to one of the Nordic countries and decided to stay there? Certainly you likely go to Sweden to visit, but how many non-Nordic friends, who have been there for more than a year or two, are you making during that time?

prawn 6y ago

I agree, and as the audience for this article, Americans are not miles off having that outdoor appreciation sorted. Underdone for holidays and accessing through private land sure, but they get a lot else right and (as an Australian) I'm quite envious of how broad the outdoor appreciation is across all age categories, especially at college age. The national parks are epic. State parks and national forests have great access opportunities given the NPs are often busy. In the west especially, there is a lot of BLM land to use and get away from everyone. There are RVers, families and college kids camping. In Australia we have grey nomads, 4WD convoys, families camping and travel couples touring around, but no real equivalent to the college kids camping in Yosemite or similar. The US has enough national forests and BLM land (at least in the west) that I don't think the right of way is especially missed?

toomanybeersies 6y ago
You don't need to go as far as the USA to find that kind of appreciation, just look over to our friendly Kiwi neighbours.
ghaff 6y ago
>at least in the west Yes. Much more in the western US than elsewhere given vast swaths of land are owned by the federal government and (especially outside of national parks) offer largely unregulated ability to hike and camp. It's different and considerably more remote from, say, taking a long distance walk in England in ways that are both better (for some) and worse (for some).
- prawn 6y ago
  I think it's excellent. A few simple rules (max stays, don't dump rubbish, etc) and then more or less freedom for the people that like that. We have "crown land" here in Australia but it's not promoted or branded with a neat brand/concept that encapsulates it as well. Often the "bush camping" is tolerated or at the mercy of individual councils (counties, I guess). Roadtripped and camped across the US twice last year, and the jump in camping opportunities once you get to Colorado heading west is awesome.

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iamthepieman 6y ago

In the rural Northeast U.S. where I live you are allowed to walk on and explore private land that you don't own unless it's "posted". To post your land you must display an official sign (available in hardware stores) every 120 meters and at every corner of your land. You also need to date every sign every year and register your land as posted with your town or city. Posted land may still be accessed with the permission of the land owner. We enjoy skiing and bird watching often on our neighbors lands in this way.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
Granted, I'm from the US and live in Norway - so I might be wrong - but I'm not sure if that would be all that legal in Norway. Yes, you may own the expanse of wood, but if you aren't actively using it for things, folks can walk there and camp there. I don't have to get permission. In the US, I'd be trespassing and could expect police to say something. For a long time, it felt like I was doing something wrong or illegal.
- iamthepieman 6y ago
  Not sure about other states but unless it's posted you can use other people's land. This is true for my state and several of the surrounding ones in the Northeast U.S. You only have to get permission if it's posted. regardless of posting status, written permission is required for certain activities such as driving and camping on private land.
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    The only thing I see in a search is mainly speaking about beaches [1]: Can they not call about you trespassing? Or do many people simply not actually care? Can you just park by the side of the road and go walking in the woods? Because ultimately, that's what I have here. I can just park off of the side of the road so long as it isn't blocking anyone and go off into the woods. I can do that and camp. Or sleep in the car, even. Without being worried about any trouble whatsoever. I can do this hours away from home without needing to know who owns the land. Indiana doesn't need signs: If a local cop sees your out-of-town plates parked by the road or sees you in someone else's woods, they are going to ask about it. Lots of folks don't care all that much, however, especially if you aren't camping or hunting, so if they see you, they might say hi but that's about it. (Parents had some acres of woods, and didn't care with the exception of hunters - they wanted to know when hunters were about so they didn't let kids or dogs in the woods without proper safety colors).

throw0101a 6y ago

> You know how poorly programming is represented in movies and tv series makes you realize how wrong they probably are about every other topic? Michael Crichton put a label on something related this: > Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward-reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story-and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read with renewed interest as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about far-off Palestine than it was about the story you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know. * https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann#Quotes_about_Gell-Mann https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann#Quotes_about_... The talk in which Crichton mentions this was discussed: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20803989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20803989

BurningFrog 6y ago

I also suspect "allemansrätten" is more a result of low population density than some unique nordic sharing culture.

mongol 6y ago
If I would research this, I would look at historical evidence of how free the peasantry class have been in relation to landowners, and how the society was set up under feudalism, the extent of serfdom, and see how strong that correlation is with current right-to-roam regulations.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  I think Scandinavian peasants were alone in Europe to never have been serfs. Which probably has cultural effects even today. One explanation I've seen is that if the nobility got to aggressive, Swedish peasants could always go hide in the forest for a while. ...which is something you can do in a low population density land, and we're full circle :)
  - rvense 6y ago
    Danish peasants were serfs for a period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavnsb%C3%A5nd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavnsb%C3%A5nd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vornedskab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vornedskab
    - jacobush 6y ago
      Sounds more like what China is doing, you need a pass to move to the city.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    The Black Death also helped a lot. It reset a lot of property relationships by leaving a lot of free land after farmers and their whole families died out - in Norway it took about 200 years before most of the farms were back in operation, and when the population was expanding again there were tax breaks for restarting farms. We can see the extent of it today in the prevalence of last names like Ødegård, Ødegaard and similar (literally "deserted farm"), and similar place names.

mongol 6y ago

I think in general you are right. But appreciation for being outdoors comes in different flavours. In Sweden I think many children have been imprinted to appreciate friluftsliv through Skogsmulle, a kind of fairy tale cartoon character, usually an adult dressed up and taking small hikes with children in a nearby forest. While there, teaching kids to not throw trash in nature, about Allemansrätten and its freedoms and responsibilities. Another could be the emphasis to learn many types of flower and tree species in biology in school. When I went to school I found that boring and useless but have later realized it being part of building a closer familiarity with the outdoors. Like ancestry in some ways. Perhaps the HN crowd could enlighten on this. I have heard that there is not as much emphasis on this abroad. A third example, the focus on Orienteering as a sport in school. When I went to school, it was certainly the most emphasised of all the types of sports we learned and practised in gym class. The only one that got it's own day regularily. I think it was once a semester, reliable as clockwork.

shybutnotshy 6y ago
I feel like I did some analog of all of those in my USA school. We even went to week long camps in the mountains and snow ("in nature"). We have/had popular TV programs for kids that emphasize "the environment" and "nature".

toomanybeersies 6y ago

Fika sounds exactly like having a smoko (smoke break) in Australia

fogihujy 6y ago
Sounds about right.

ineedasername 6y ago

I'm waiting for the article about the Nordic ritual of toalettet and how it is a deeper, more meaningful experience for communing with one's own waste products.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

The article is specifically targeting people in the Pacific Northwest (presumably of the US, though parts of PNW include parts of Canada). The US is prone to thinking 'You go outside in nice weather" and this article is aimed at rebutting that notion and explicitly saying "You can enjoy the great outdoors in any kind of weather." I live in a small town in Washington. Not long after I moved here, I saw a video that listed this town as one of the ten worst cities to live in for Washington state. It listed high unemployment, high drug use and the big zinger was fewest sunny days. I hear all kinds of trash talk about the weather out here which both amuses and aggravates me because I moved here for the very temperate weather. I live without a car and it rarely gets below freezing here and it rarely gets all that hot. It rains a lot and I wish there were more awnings in the downtown area, but the rain tends to be light, so I don't care that much. I grew up in Georgia which has terrible, terrible storms on a regular basis. The article also explicitly states that Seattle has "deep Scandinavian roots." So it is trying to appeal to locals in a way that they should be able to readily identify with and embrace. This is not a generic article. It is very much a localized article with a particular audience and time and place in mind. And for that reason, the references make a lot of sense.

twoWhlsGud 6y ago
Indeed. As someone who lives in Seattle I believe that being able to be out walking and biking year round is one of the best reasons for being here. The weather west of the Cascades is quite temperate - so with some basic gear from Costco or Goodwill (or REI or Patagonia if you want, but it's not necessary) you can go to town pretty much any day (or night) of the year except for rare snow storms and the like. And during Covid, that getting out and about has really helped maintain a positive outlook in this crazy time. Highly recommend it to other NWesterners.
Daegalus 6y ago
Ya, I moved to Sammamish, WA from the SF Bay Area, and people make too big of a deal about Washington rain. Ya it rains, but its a normal 4 season type of thing. Rain most of winter with some snow for like 2 weeks. Light showers mixed with sun in the spring. Pretty warm and sunny during the summer but not hot, then light rains and winds in the fall. People made it out and warned me about "Washington Rain" like it was going to be raining 360 days out of the year at torrential levels, with grey/dark skys and the apocalypse. Most of the time the rain is super light and gentle with no wind, and the sky is white if not broken up with blue sky

pelario 6y ago

While I agree with your point of the concept being a universal one, and the title being clickbaity, there is an important point: here the drive to be in the nature seems stronger. It is not about being able to afford it, it is about preferences. I am a foreigner living in Finland and this drive to be in the nature has impressed me, specially taken together with a society that is not very consumerist. In my original country, as well as here, you can use public transportation to go an be in the nature. Here is done much more often than there. Also, the cities are built in a way that respect and keep the nature, it's not about overriding it.

jimnotgym 6y ago

I think it is a universal human concept, but it is not available to every human. We have a very limited right to roam in England and Wales, and much less forest. I see on TV people in Nordic countries camping by a lake and fishing for their dinner in complete solitude. I don't know where I could do that in the UK, except as some kind of paid bushcraft experience...or tresspassing!

arethuza 6y ago
Scotland has Scandinavian style "Right to Roam" and wild camping is very popular - you can camp pretty much anywhere you want as long as you follow some sensible rules (some extremely popular areas near to Glasgow have local by-laws controlling camping - but that's a very small part of the country). Here's something to give you a taste of what is possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opAWJnD0Jro&t=40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opAWJnD0Jro&t=40s https://www.visitscotland.com/accommodation/caravan-camping/wild-camping/ https://www.visitscotland.com/accommodation/caravan-camping/... Also if you don't fancy staying in a tent there is a network of bothies where you can stay for free (at least during normal times): https://www.mountainbothies.org.uk/ https://www.mountainbothies.org.uk/
- jacobush 6y ago
  Scotland is basically Scandinavia light, what with your bairn fishing in the beck and so on.
vidarh 6y ago
As a Norwegian living in England, moving here felt like being walled in. Granted I live in London, but it's more than just the lack of land, it also extends to a different culture around things like parks. E.g. opening hours and fences around parks - what the hell is that about? I was just totally confused the first time I got to a park in the evening and it was closed. Part of it of course has to do with density, but to me that just makes it all the more important to protect and ensure as much access as possible. Instead people are herded into as little land as possible, and opening hours imposed on a good chunk of it. Scotland does have similar rights to Scandinavia.

samuell 6y ago

I'm a Swede with two siblings living in Oslo, Norway, and from our chats and their shared photos on our family chat I can tell that either way the Norwegians are clearly more nature inclined than Swedes even. For them, "gå på tur" ("going in a hike tour") is apparently something that can be done more or less any day of the week, while in Sweden you probably plan that for the weekends mostly. Mentioning that as the article was in fact primarily using Norway as an example. But then, also in Sweden I think we might have a somewhat higher inclination to be outside than in many other places. Like, even in the freezing winter, the number of bicyclists commuting to work in Stockholm is quite large.

originalvichy 6y ago
I echo this. As a finn with norwegian friends it's the norwegians who are the most nature-loving and it is no suprise since their landscape makes it hard to ignore the elements, and easy to enjoy the views. The finns probably share the extreme relaxation part of nature with swedes. Going to your cabin in the woods with family or friends and leaving your phone on the table to socialize or relax with those around you. A norwegian might like to "relax" by facing the elements and summiting a local mountain :)
- samuell 6y ago
  Yes, that seems like a pretty apt description :)

mullsork 6y ago

My experience outside the Nordics says somewhat different. > An appreciation of and desire to be in nature is part of almost every society on the planet I would rephrase that as "An appreciation of and desire to be outside in great weather with friends is part of almost every society on the planet." I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but I've met few people who are willing to, for no purpose other than to be outside, go outside in hard wind or light rain. The idea of "go get some fresh air, you'll feel better" doesn't seem to resonate well. > fika What makes the fika culture unique (we have it in Finland too) is not that you decide to go grab a coffee during the work day. For me, it's that _everyone_ takes a break at the same time to have coffee. I only did an internship in tech back home, but even there we would all take a break at 9:30 to sit down, have a coffee, and talk about whatever we came up with. When I hear non-Nordics talk about Nordic culture I get the feeling that they're very focused on what individuals do, whereas the whole point is what people collectively do.

Tade0 6y ago
For me, it's that _everyone_ takes a break at the same time to have coffee. I've spent four years in Italy and around 12:00-12:30 the whole country essentially stops and goes for a lunch break - small businesses close etc. The vast majority of restaurants are open during certain hours when there's a chance that people will visit. I read somewhere that before WW2 it was like that in other countries, but died out over the years because of competition. Perhaps what you're describing is a remnant of these times?
- mullsork 6y ago
  I wasn't thinking about lunch, but that makes sense. It's not as strict or drastic here in Berlin. For a 9-6 office job, I'd say people leave for lunch between 12-13. What I'm thinking of in the Nordics, or Finland especially since I haven't worked in the other ones, are the two coffee breaks that are part of the work day. I've worked in construction and the aforementioned tech internship, and this is roughly how the day looks (offices tend to start one hour later): - 06:50: arrive early, banter, coffee - 07:00: day beings - 09:15: first 15min coffee break - 11:30: lunch break - 14:15: second 15min coffee break - 15:30: day is over I may be off by 15 minutes for the coffee breaks, it's been over a decade since I worked outside of the tech startup bubble. Not sure how things are in Finnish startups, probably slightly different? I miss these "natural" breaks though. On the other hand, I do enjoy having my coffee while working as well. :')

jmkerr 6y ago

This reminds me of this British perspective on the custom of opening a window in Germany, which is indistinguishable from parody for a German: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/30/germans-embrace-fresh-air-to-ward-off-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/30/germans-embrac... > The custom is something of a national obsession, with many Germans habitually opening windows twice a day, even in winter. > Impact ventilation, or Stosslüften, which needs explanation for most people unfamiliar with Germany except for experts in air hygiene, involves widely opening a window in the morning and evening for at least five minutes to allow the air to circulate. Even more efficient is Querlüften, or cross ventilation, whereby all the windows in a house or apartment are opened letting stale air flow out and fresh air come in. > In Germany, windows are designed with sophisticated hinge technology that allows them to be opened in various directions to enable varying degrees of Lüften.

kzrdude 6y ago
That's funny, a swedish journalist did a nice report on the same topic, probably for exactly the same reason, or two reasons, really - it's a foreign correspondent, so they always need to have a new topic to report home about and, Merkel had mentioned ventilation/Lüften recently, so it was on topic. Even if it looks like a parody to a German, it is valuable to get an outside look at your own culture to bring a new perspective - I like that too. The article I read included the fact that many renting contracts have conditions about how often it should be ventilated.

mnky9800n 6y ago

This is the same tourist propaganda that comes from Japan too. There's some kind of knowledge or wisdom that the culture only knows and outside people can catch a glimpse of it if they try.