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Russia gives Edward Snowden permanent residency
- Shivetya 6y agoI seriously hope that the President gives Snowden a pardon even it as a dick move on his way out. His releases were far less dangerous than Manning but I think his problem is no compelling story to distract from his actions and he did step on a lot of toes. Toes that deserved to be stomped.
- Simulacra 6y agoBoth put lives at risk for what has apparently achieved zero gain. I don’t want Snowden to have a pardon, and I think he and Manning both belong in prison.
- saagarjha 6y agoI wouldn't call revealing the extent of illicit NSA surveillance "zero gain".
- shadowgovt 6y agoIf nothing else, it pushed Google to close the security hole the UK was using to harvest inter-datacenter data.
- Simulacra 6y agoIt nothing else, it pushed the governments to bury their secret programs even deeper. Nothing changed. The NSA is still spying on Americans, American technology companies are still working with governments to thwart human rights and spy on citizens, and Russia has just rewarded its best spy with residency. Net result zero.
- devilduck 6y agoIf you don't think the direct knowledge of how the US government is surveiling its own people is "zero gain" then I can't wait to hear some other amazing opinions you might have. Though I have my silent guesses as to how your bias leans.
- bdamm 6y agoIf there was a gain would you feel differently about pardoning Snowden?
- Simulacra 6y agoA pardon is off the table. He committed treason, regardless of Monday morning quarterbacking and saying the ends justify the means. He broke the law. Either it's the law or it's not, and the fact he and Manning broke the law, regardless of what "good" people might see in it, they still broke the law.
- rorykoehler 6y agoReporting someone else breaking the law should never be illegal. The law that says it is, is an illegitimate law. That is just playing into the hands of corruption and despotism.
- jdc 6y agoHow is revealing systemic domestic surveillance at zero value in your mind?
- wlesieutre 6y agoNot to mention this formerly secret mass surveillance program has been making its way through the courts and the Ninth Circuit court of appeals found it to have been illegal, that the NSA has been lying about it for years, and that they were additionally lying when they said it helped convict several terrorist supporters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nsa-spying/u-s-court-mass-surveillance-program-exposed-by-snowden-was-illegal-idUSKBN25T3CK https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nsa-spying/u-s-court-... > Evidence that the NSA was secretly building a vast database of U.S. telephone records - the who, the how, the when, and the where of millions of mobile calls - was the first and arguably the most explosive of the Snowden revelations published by the Guardian newspaper in 2013. > Up until that moment, top intelligence officials publicly insisted the NSA never knowingly collected information on Americans at all. After the program’s exposure, U.S. officials fell back on the argument that the spying had played a crucial role in fighting domestic extremism, citing in particular the case of four San Diego residents who were accused of providing aid to religious fanatics in Somalia. > U.S. officials insisted that the four - Basaaly Saeed Moalin, Ahmed Nasir Taalil Mohamud, Mohamed Mohamud, and Issa Doreh - were convicted in 2013 thanks to the NSA’s telephone record spying, but the Ninth Circuit ruled Wednesday that those claims were “inconsistent with the contents of the classified record.”
- anonAndOn 6y agoIIUC, this case would have never been possible without Snowden's evidence that the spying program existed. You can't stop a government program that doesn't exist.
- dnautics 6y ago(playing devil's advocate) you could make the argument that the suspicion that domestic surveillance was at that level was almost as high (if not higher).
- aaomidi 6y agoYet we accept this because the alternative means a strong precedent for prosecuting whistle-blowing. Snowden literally exposed a massive spy campaign and moved it from conspiracy status to truth. Just because you didn't do shit about it doesn't mean it was 0 gain :)
- Simulacra 6y agoThere was zero gain. Everyone found out and yet we moved right along, your woke outrage has done nothing, still is doing nothing, while two men who put countless lives at risk go on their merry way. It's only a truth to you, to everyone else its treason.
- rorykoehler 6y agoDon't blame the messenger. The risk was created and perpetuated by a mafia style government on both counts.
- StavrosK 6y agoI wonder if people who think this would have the same opinion of someone who revealed classified documents about government surveillance or ethnic cleansing in China. Or is it only bad when it's our government's misdeeds that are being exposed?
- jancsika 6y ago> Both put lives at risk for what has apparently achieved zero gain. So, future impact affects your assessment of the righteousness of an act of conscience? How does that work?
- DubiousPusher 6y agoMaybe that looks like a gross "argument from final consequences"... ...but if we could get this police state going and everyone would shut up about it we'd all be 100% safe right?
- jancsika 6y agoHee hee, that's like when I tried changing a makefile to speed things up and it compiled the library in question in zero seconds.
- Simulacra 6y agoI can't tell the future, can you?
- wavefunction 6y agoI upvoted you because you merely posted your opinion, with which I agree. His actions did result in loss of trust in the US from foreign governments and people but I think his main intent was to alert the American people to what their government is doing. I consider him a patriot and my only regret is that he was trapped in Russia though I'm not sure his plans to travel to South America would have panned out.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoAgreed. We (the public) should never give up attempting to obtain a pardon for him.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- moomin 6y agoHe was planning to go to Ecuador, wasn't he? Which at the time was pretty friendly to those viewpoints. And then Ola Bini got arrested and detained so I don't think it's that friendly anymore.
- pseingatl 6y agoCorrect. The US canceled his passport while he was in Russia, hoping that they would deport him. Whoever had that idea should be fired. Given the Assange situation, it is fortunate for Snowden that he did not reach either Ecuador or Venezuela, the latter country offering him political asylum as well.
- jsu32 6y agoIf that was his intent: Why not selectively publish only the parts about surveillance of US citizens? Why publish details of how the US was dealing with adversaries like China? From the looks of it, Snowden cared about getting famous more than any specific goal.
- yourapostasy 6y ago
- chrisco255 6y agoThe president can't pre-pardon him though. He'd have to go to trial first.
- dragonwriter 6y agoThat's completely false[0], no such condition exists in the Constitution and people (for the most famous, Nixon) have been pardoned without charges, much less trial. [0] On further reflection, that's probably overstated. While there is no such express condition in the Constitution, and pardons have been issued in such circumstances (including the famous Nixon pardon), none of them have been challenged (such as by a later attempt to prosecute despite the pardon) in a way which caused a court to rule on their effect, and there are cases where the question of the Constitutionality of pre-conviction pardons has been raised, though those cases were resolved on other grounds. So it should probably be acknowledged that the claim that a pardon requires trial and conviction is an active legal theory, though one without positive support in case law, and one which the actual practical use of pardons in the US has not been consistent with to this point.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jb1991 6y agoCompletely false. Look at Nixon.
- chrisco255 6y agoI stand corrected...pardon me.
- mikestew 6y agoStill time to delete that erroneous comment should you so choose. Be advised, now that there are replies, that it will show as "[deleted]".
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- dragonwriter 6y ago> His releases were far less dangerous than Manning Manning wasn't pardoned, though. Manning was granted clemency based largely on how the military treated her in detention.
- BlueScreenDeath 6y agoManning was in the military, there is no comparison to Manning and Snowden in that regard.
- shadowgovt 6y agoSnowden was never found guilty of anything, so the President can't pardon him. And Presidential authority doesn't extend to say "Whatever he did, this country forgives him" in the absence of a guilty verdict. It's commonly thought to, but the actual result is unknown; a subsequent President's authority to arrest him on his "pardoned" actions and try him for commission of crime under the theory that one cannot be pardoned for crimes not tried has never been tested in the US legal system. Trump is enough of an outlier that someone might actually be willing to test the hypothesis on any pardons he fires off.
- pseingatl 6y agoThat's not true. Nixon was preemptively pardoned by Ford with no charges pending.
- shadowgovt 6y agoAnd no subsequent President challenged that pardon. That's the operative factor here. Nobody's ever tried to claim the President lacks authority to pardon for crimes untried. What would happen if it was tried is unclear; there's no precedent. Trump's enough of an outlier that his successor might actually test the hypothesis.
- function_seven 6y ago> The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. The Constitution makes no mention of trial, or of conviction. Indeed, the Supreme Court has ruled that pardons can be offered prior to a conviction in Ex parte Garland[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte_Garland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte_Garland
- shadowgovt 6y agoCorrect on "Crimes untried," and my error. Ex parte Garland clearly covers that. However, subsequent rulings call into question the absolute scope of Ex parte Garland (https://digitalcommons.law.wne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1815&context=lawreview https://digitalcommons.law.wne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...). In particular, in case of dispute, the Court has the authority to adjudicate the dispute. It's the authority the Court used to hear Ex parte Garland in the first place. And to my knowledge, there has never been a case that considers the President's ability to pardon for all possible crimes that could be filed related to some action. So if a subsequent President chooses to tack on a fourth crime to the list of three Snowden is currently charged with, a Trump pardon would likely not attach. At least, it would be up to the Court to decide if it attaches.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- marketingPro 6y agoBless him for telling us what had been suspect for so many years. There is no illusion of privacy anymore, even if a company jams ads down your throat. If things need to be private, you need to be taking extreme precautions.
- dirtnugget 6y agoIs it still popular opinion that he seeked asylum in Russia? I feel most people don’t realize that he was on transit to Ecuador when the Russians told him passport had apparently been expired. He never planned to stay there.
- agustif 6y agoSeeing how Ecuador worked out for Assange, Snowden was lucky to end up stranded there.
- seppin 6y agoYes it's call a "cover story". He visited the Russian consulate in HK (for a birthday party no less) before he left and his main legal advisor was the lawyer from Wikileaks , a Russian intel cutout. All just coincidence I guess.
- dirtnugget 6y ago"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
- aarchi 6y agoDo you have a source for this?
- seppin 6y ago5 seconds on Google. This claims says he actually stayed there. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-at-russian-consulate-while-in-hong-kong/2013/08/26/8237cf9a-0e39-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-a...
- dirtnugget 6y agoThis source says explicitly that he was on his way to Ecuador
- ios14 6y agoGiven the extent of military intelligence docs stolen, and given that the domestic programs deployed were lawful at the time, whistleblower is a disingenuious title for Mr. Snowden. Putting aside domestic disclosures, it is difficult to see how the scope of stolen materials merits praise or euphemistic titles. Snowden is a fugitive. As it pertains to the majority of what was stolen, he is not a whistleblower, but a thief.
- tinus_hn 6y agoThe big question is what Russia has to gain from this. Is it just to troll the US?
- mhh__ 6y agoYes
- Semaphor 6y agoIt’s an easy PR win. The US behaves like a petulant child, and Russia can come off like the benevolent country protecting freedom. That seems like an extremely easy decision to make.
- 0df8dkdf 6y agoPardon Snowden and Assange. Let all the dirt about all the high level people come out no matter how dark dirty or ugly they are, only then does US can start to establish some legitimacy on the world stage.
- solarkraft 6y agoSomething tells me that the high level people wouldn't like that.
- colejohnson66 6y agoYep. Obama didn’t even pardon Manning. He only commuted her sentence. The difference being that pardoning removes it from your record while commuted is just “time served.”
- dirtnugget 6y agoAs much as I liked Obama, his government would take any chance at spying on others.
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- ShorsHammer 6y agoI'm happy for Snowden, he seems like a decent person willing to take a stand for what is right and face all the negative outcomes from exposing crimes within an organisation.
- anoonmoose 6y agoKind of weird to say he "faced all the negative outcomes" when he fled the US to avoid the most major of the potential negative outcomes.
- jeremyjh 6y agoFleeing the homeland of your birth and moving to Russia is itself a pretty negative outcome.
- coddle-hark 6y agoThat’s kind of like saying “he avoided most of the potential negative outcomes because they killed him”.
- save_ferris 6y agoBlowing the whistle completely upended his life. Anyone in his shoes would've made the same decision to leave because being tried under the Espionage Act would've yielded a guaranteed life sentence. People have a right to flee tyranny, wherever it is.
- slg 6y agoJust like Chelsea Manning has and will continue to spend the rest of her life in prison?
- shadowgovt 6y agoThe US's treatment of Manning has sent the very clear signal that the next person who wants to leak classified documents had better have a speedboat to Vladivostok waiting for them.
- ios1401 6y ago1 point by ios14 3 minutes ago | edit | delete [–] Given the extent of military intelligence docs stolen, and given that the domestic programs deployed were lawful at the time, whistleblower is a disingenuious title for Mr. Snowden. Putting aside domestic disclosures, it is difficult to see how the scope of stolen materials merits praise or euphemistic titles. Snowden is a fugitive. As it pertains to the majority of what was stolen, he is not a whistleblower, but a thief. ___ ps: Censorship Alert -- my account ios14 was shadowbanned after making these replies: 1 points by ios14 10 days ago | parent [–] | on: DOJ – International Statement: End-to-End Encrypti... What are the odds that big tech and big brother are in bed creating a huge dog and pony show to counter the post-Snowden “going dark” reality? Given: The public knows about mass surveillance. Big tech deploys supposedly unbreakable end to end encryption. The public feels more safe and protected from Big Brother yet again. Theory: Meanwhile, behind the scenes, government and big tech have, in secret, the ability to recover such encrypted comms. The DOJ initiative would then be part of an elaborate psyop to further deceive people into believing that FB “has their back”. I’m going to guess that third parties have extensively reverse engineered apps such as fb messenger to ensure that it is essentially impossible for the above to be the case, since E2EE occurs at the endpoints. Can an encryption expert weigh in here? Edit: this also raises general concerns I have about trusting an App Store to install what is supposed to be installed, and not a backdoor’ed version of an app. Something like: Let the reverse engineers have an unmodified app, while distributing alternate versions to other unsuspecting users. reply * 1 point by ios14 10 days ago [–] Also, odds that the govt has secret radically advanced quantum computing tech and does have a QC to recover using Shor’s? (Yea, probably unlikely as it would takes millions of qubits to achieve this..) How long before lattice based crypto is sufficiently vetted for wide deployment?
- damm 6y agoSomething to be thankful. I am sure he would rather come home; but I don't see the that changing with Biden as he hasn't said anything.
- mikepurvis 6y agoFair, but I doubt that Biden would have anything to gain politically from discussing it— anyone with a strongly held opinion on this probably knows who they support already, and anyone who doesn't would be best reached via other issues.
- classified 6y agoThe Greatest Country On Earth™ has its citizens flee to the Empire Of Evil™ just so they can speak a simple truth without being imprisoned or called a traitor. The incompetent bureaucrats in charge of Snowden's prosecution made him a martyr instead. Those people are massive fuckups even at playing bad guys and you trust them to operate an Orwellian surveillance and suppression system? Good luck with that.
- duxup 6y agoI'm not convinced Russia has any allegiance to "the truth" outside of when it intersects what they happen to want to say at the moment. I would consider Russia far more Orwellian than most nations. Comparisons like yours seem to ignore that fact.
- malandrew 6y agoYou're probably right, but if it takes two orwellian actors exposing the orwellian nature of one another to mitigate how much orwell we experience in the US and russians experience in Russia, I'd consider that a net win for civil liberties in both countries.
- duxup 6y agoI'm VERY wary of granting anyone pretty far down the Orwellian hole any credibility when it comes to the idea that they might help anyone determine the truth / dig another nation out of an Orwellian hole. Straight up I don't think they want that, actually the opposite. Russia really seems to prefer to get close up with other Orwellian nations more than others, they're not there to help ANYONE dig out, rather they'd rather just get friends in place in other nations that are Orwellian themselves.
- dang 6y ago"Please don't fulminate." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Perhaps you don't owe massive fuckups better, but you owe this community better if you're posting here. We're trying for a different sort of conversation.
- whydoineedone 6y ago“Whistleblower” aka treasonous self-aggrandizing fraud that undermines American interests and damaged our global reputation
- fandroid 6y agoDue to the extent of mil intelligence docs stolen, and since the domestic programs deployed were lawful at the time, whistleblower is a disingenuious title for Mr. Snowden. Putting aside domestic disclosures, it's difficult to see how the scope of stolen materials merits praise or euphemistic titles. Snowden is a fugitive. As it pertains to the majority of what was stolen, he is not a whistleblower, but a thief. Had Snowden simply revealed unconstitutional domestic mass surveillance programs, perhaps he could be pigeonholed as a whistleblower.
- ebg13 6y ago> since the domestic programs deployed were lawful at the time Assuming for the moment that this is true... Even something that is secretly lawful can be entirely immoral and only doable if kept hidden from the public who would otherwise object. The whistleblower's responsibility is to the public, not just their organizational superiors. It's unhealthy to believe that the law dictates ethics.
- exolymph 6y agoIf the government wanted anyone outside of natsec or the IC to care about this, they shouldn't have operated a massive unconstitutional dragnet. That would change the tenor of discussion, I promise.
- fandroid 6y agoThe IC does their job keeping us safe precisely so we don't have to concern ourselves with things such as: * Which servers in China we are hacking * Foreign surveillance * Joint CIA/NSA programs Damage is ongoing. Relationship with foreign leaders, for instance, has suffered irreparable damage. Snowden's very existence as a propaganda mouthpiece does align with Putin's long term active measures. His greatest value is in undermining internal confidence in our institutions that protect our freedom.
- save_ferris 6y ago> Had Snowden simply revealed unconstitutional domestic mass surveillance programs, perhaps he could be pigeonholed as a whistleblower. Multiple former officials did this and society largely didn't believe them and didn't care. Thomas Drake, Bill Binney, and others came forward through the appropriate legal channels and lost their careers, faced prosecution, and absolutely nothing changed. Legally, you're technically correct. Snowden is a fugitive. That doesn't change the fact that he fundamentally changed the way we think about privacy and the government's role in digital privacy for the better. James Clapper lied to Congress weeks before Snowden's revelations, yet he never faced perjury charges. That's what a broken system looks like.
- ciarannolan 6y agoIf granted a pardon by the current or future US president, is there any chance that Russia will not let him return home?
- duxup 6y agoI think that's unknowable / up to the whims of Russia.
- Arech 6y agoThe only correct answer here.
- class4behavior 6y agoPublicly Russia treated Snowden just as any (high-level) refugee, there is no value in keeping him in the country, and he himself didn't reveal any discomfort staying there. So there is no reason to believe they would interfere with his decisions. In fact, if they granted him citizenship, then they might prevent him from traveling because he would become their responsibility in case he gets arrested abroad.
- DubiousPusher 6y agoConsidering that this is mostly about Russia doing a victory lap, I don't think so. If they tried to keep him there it would kind of spoil the whole thing and tip the lie of their supposed benevolence. Much better for the PR to let him go and wish him luck. Probably even have a send off ceremony, give him some kind of medal?
- stjohnswarts 6y agoRight. I don't think they'd want to waste the "good will" and good guy PR they got by protecting a US citizen from his own government.
- hourislate 6y agoRussia doesn't prevent it's citizens from traveling. What prevents it's citizens from traveling is getting a VISA to the destination country. This is granted through the local Embassy or Consolidate of destination country requiring a VISA. Permanent residency is not citizenship. Granting Permanent Residency will give him some sort of stability knowing he will not have to renew his status every year (or so) and be able to participate more fully in Russian society (ex: Employment, services, travel, Pension, etc). Edward Snowden will always be a US Citizen in the eyes of the USA unless he takes steps to renounce his citizenship.
- artingent 6y agoHappy for Snowden, but I hope that if Biden wins, he'd pardon Snowden - following Obama's footsteps in commuting Chelsea Manning. Although it might be harder since Biden to the Right of Obama, and given how hawkish, war-mongering, neo-libs have cozied up to Biden, and commuting Snowden isn't really possible since he has never been tried in court.
- DubiousPusher 6y agoYou know Obama's justice department conducted more leak prosecutions than all modern presidents combined? IDK what Trump's numbers are but his justice department is using processes and reasoning established by Obama's. Maybe Biden would pardon Snowden but it will be a hollow symbolic victory. Unless he explicitly sets to dismantling Obama's machine, it will churn ever on at the whims of whomever is president.
- artingent 6y agoFirst term Obama was a horrible President - from drone strikes to deportations to dealing with whistleblowers... IDK if he was too concerned about being labeled a far left socialist in governance and risking his re-election prospects. But in his 2nd term, he was a far better president. He eased off on drone strikes (still too much, imo), pardoned non-violent drug offences like crazy, he commuted Manning's sentence, and there were talks of him considering pardoning Snowden too (when he was a lame duck). I don't think Biden will venture into territory that Obama considered to be too controversial, but given that Biden's pretty much running as a 1 term President, I don't think it's impossible.
- colejohnson66 6y agoI’m not aware of anything that says a pardon requires a court trial, so correct me if I’m wrong, but a pardon isn’t saying “you’re free to go,” but actually saying (in essence) “that crime never happened.” When Manning’s sentence was commuted, that was “you’re free to go” because commuting a sentence (in essence) means “you’ve served your time”
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- Threeve303 6y agoYou have to wonder about the impact his revelations had on the Russian agents operating against the United States. At minimum, permanent residency is a nice way to say "Thank you".
- jrjrjrjr 6y agoEd, Just don't stay for TEA. Look forward to your return.
- srg0 6y agoJust a PR stunt to give something else to talk about after the botched Navalny assasination. Changing topics. So Putin may look like a good guy.
- themodelplumber 6y agoOr a welcoming signal to any public figures in the States who may be facing multiple unwinnable lawsuits and additional negative exposures in the US in the coming months and years...
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- cramexam 6y agoPlease make a list of all foreign investors in the NSA. Then make a list of foreign investors in American big tech companies. Consider the possibility that the traitor Snowden went rogue in Switzerland, and planned a ruse to wind up in Russia from, at least, 2012. A trained spy has the ability to fabricate a detailed, plausible cover story, and this typically comprises the majority of preparation for such an operation. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how Snowden could fancy himself as a patriot when he leaked the blueprints to our global surveillance operations. This is pure gaslighting, since nobody wants unnecessary mouth breathers. It's the ultimate leveraging of civil liberties to support internal strife and division between our institutions and the civilians served by those institutions. Russia keeps Edward Snowden around primarily to support Active Measures. There'a a cognitive dissonance going on, one that particularly appeals to tech idealists, an idealism that most of us geeky civilians possess to some degree. What would Russia do if the roles were reversed, in terms of controlled propaganda, and retribution?
- temptemptemp111 6y agoIt is all a scam man... Everyone basically knew what he "released" about spying - it was just suddenly normalized & authorized by the media. He is what we call "controlled opposition" - “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.” ― Lenin. Yes, this means that folks using Signal.org & Protonmail should think twice before considering them panacea.
- terrycody 6y agoReally really happy and glad to see this news, I hope Snowden lives a better life in there! Kudos to you, our hero!
- sjtindell 6y agoAgreed although in the last thing I heard from Edward Snowden he was on the Joe Rogan podcast and sounded pretty unhappy with his general living situation in Russia.
- Arech 6y agoI'm glad you are willing him a better life, but don't really expect it is even possible. No. Especially for a Snowden's kind of person. It's more like a prison with free walks. You should make your govt to pardon him and clear from all charges.
- mcv 6y agoI'm still disappointed that no country in Europe would give him asylum.