8 ms·

Those poor workers who has to use Windows for Linux-related works because of stupid employer's policy previously use VM, so it doesn't change much. Nothing to

by ezoe 6y ago

Those poor workers who has to use Windows for Linux-related works because of stupid employer's policy previously use VM, so it doesn't change much. Nothing to be eaten.

dividedbyzero 6y ago
Nah, lots of shops begrudgingly support Linux laptops because a VM is a lot less practical, and the productivity hit would be substantial, probably, and forcing devs to make do with Windows only is bad for hiring. If WSL really works out, though, it might be the other way around – Linux on Windows might work really well, be able to do things Linux itself can't, like interfacing with Windows-only hardware, using DirectX, and be the superior experience in total for lots of people. It will be much, much harder to justify the expense of buying a whole different set of hardware and support it if the net result is a worse experience across the board. Businesses tend to not care much about freedom of software and the like.
- zeveb 6y ago
  > Linux on Windows might work really well … and be the superior experience in total for lots of people. No, it will not and — without massive changes at Microsoft and in Windows — will never be. Source: have a Windows box, am repeatedly amazed at how bad it is. Seriously, it is embarrassing to use Windows. I think the only reason people enjoy it is the fact that they have not gotten a chance to really spend time in a good tiling window manager on X11/GNU/Linux. The GUI is ugly and laggy. The ads are an insult. The shells are either childish or stupidly (emphasis on the stupid) verbose, and gratuitously incompatible. There seriously is no comparison: in 2020, Linux is head and shoulders above Windows on the desktop.
  - corty 6y ago
    Most people who are happy with WoL are webdevs who do not really use anything beyond npm and git. So most people do not notice how bad things really are on Windows
  - trashburger 6y ago
    Why is this getting downvoted? He's right. Refute his points instead of downvoting him.
    - jraph 6y ago
      > Why is this getting downvoted? He's right. Refute his points instead of downvoting him. >> I think the only reason people enjoy it is the fact that they have not gotten a chance to really spend time in a good tiling window manager on X11/GNU/Linux I don't like Windows, but its UI is not that bad, come on. Moreover, I use GNU/Linux full time but I don't use a tiling manager. My windows are fullscreen most of the time, and the rest of the time the features that allow putting windows on the corners or the sides (with the keyboard or the mouse) are more than enough. Tiling window managers are not for everyone. I didn't downvote but to me the message shows a lack of observation on how people use computers. The update manager that popups a notification or a dialog box or reboots in the middle of a presentation or a movie or something and, to add insult to injury, the system taking its time to apply the updates during the next startup? that could be embarrassing. Convenient UX features from the Linux world lacking on Windows are a thing (selection / middle click paste?), but Windows UI seems excellent. It's just less excellent than Plasma obviously, but it's nothing short of bad or embarrasing.
      - 2ion 6y ago
        > I don't like Windows, but its UI is not that bad, come on. I don't know. I am very OK with Win7 but I tried installing Win10 the other week on a VM in the intent to let it superseed my Linux on the desktop. The 125% scaling of UI made fonts blurry on my monitor and text inconsistently sized. The "dark" theme lets core apps like Explorer flicker in white then turn dark, like slow Android apps. There are mini ad programs in the start menu. I don't even know where you're supposed to configure settings anymore without search; the control panel vs fancy settings apps vs msc snapins (which are the only parts that still work reliably)? Their UI is worse than KDE or GNOME now. I had 3rd party applications working perfectly fine which I guess is the point but Windows10 UI is no marvel. This is a problem because Win7 used to just work, discretely. What's left is for me to experiment with group policy settings and suchlike (at least my edition permits it) in the hopes of getting my issues fixed. Probably have to throw in a ton of third-party "Windows 10 fix" powershell libraries to clean things up. I got the Win10 Enterprise license through my company. I would never pay money for this OS, privately.
  - sm84258 6y ago
    you are being downvoted because kvm is just not capable of being hyper v and it never will be. hyper v is the best software in existance and windows will be fine forever.
    - 1MachineElf 6y ago
      My Hyper-V endeavor is basically a failed one, because on the latest version of Windows, running VMs still causes random bluescreens on my Ryzen-based workstation. I wish I could say it was good software, but it's very much lacking for me.
      - secondcoming 6y ago
        I use VMWare Player on a Win10 host and have never had an issue.
      - unicornfinder 6y ago
        Genuinely surprised to hear that - running a Ryzen 9 3900X on Windows 10 with HyperV and it's been rock solid for months.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      Is this sarcastic?
  - vehemenz 6y ago
    > Linux is head and shoulders above Windows on the desktop When plug-and-play, drivers, and power management work correctly. When business software is compatible. When you don't have to search through obscure forums or jump on FreeNode to figure out why your wireless card doesn't work. When your filesystem corrupts and won't boot because you didn't shut it down correctly. When your font anti-aliasing and resolution scaling doesn't look like shit. When you have several hours a day to set things up, rather than getting work done.
    - saghm 6y ago
      > When plug-and-play, drivers, and power management work correctly. When business software is compatible. When you don't have to search through obscure forums or jump on FreeNode to figure out why your wireless card doesn't work. When your filesystem corrupts and won't boot because you didn't shut it down correctly. GP did say "in 2020"; I haven't had any of those issues for years
      - vehemenz 6y ago
        This is the same canned response we also had twenty years ago. "Works for me, so it's not an issue."
        saghm 6y ago
        I agree that my experience is only one datapoint. But your comment was in response to someone who's experience was having more issues on Windows than Linux by saying that you don't have issues on Windows, which is the same thing. Personally, I run into way more issues when I try to use Windows than Linux; for example, whenever I boot into Windows on my desktop, it doesn't recognize that my ethernet cable is plugged in unless I unplug it and then replug it back in. It also sometimes just doesn't give any audio output when it boots up, and I have to reboot to get it to work. These and other issues I have may not be issues you run into, but they are just as valid experiences as the issues you might have with Linux. My point is that the argument that Windows "just works" out of the box is not as objective as you might think.
    - 6y ago
  - hurrrrrrrr 6y ago
    > I think the only reason people enjoy it is the fact that they have not gotten a chance to really spend time in a good tiling window manager on X11/GNU/Linux. I did and switched back to floating. AMA
- louwrentius 6y ago
  I think the year of Linux on the desktop will be heralded by Microsoft introducing WSL3 that provides absolute compatibility with all Linux applications. ;-) Not that most people would want to run most of those, but Microsofts corporate customers are fed up with supporting those Linux laptops and all the problems related to that.
  - whizzter 6y ago
    Really afaik the only thing missing from working well with mainline WSL2 now is some UI apps using GL,etc for X11 and iirc that is being worked so no need for any WSL3. Considering i've mostly used win envs to begin with this is already good enough that i see very few reasons to ever bother with installing Linux for myself again and even those are dwindling quickly.
    - louwrentius 6y ago
      Interesting, thank you!
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  WSL2 is a VM...
  - unicornfinder 6y ago
    It is but it's an incredibly well integrated VM that's transparent to the user. I'm genuinely very, very happy developing on Windows with WSL2.
    - the8472 6y ago
      Does it support hardware performance counters needed for profiling yet? Or GPU acceleration?
patrec 6y ago
There is a non-zero chance WSL will make desktop Linux completely irrelevant even for developers.
- znpy 6y ago
  it's called "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish"
  - lproven 6y ago
    This. It's been MICROS~1's primary tactic against competitors for at least 1/3 of a century now and nothing has changed: now the company just _says_ it likes FOSS. Does Windows set up dual-boot if Linux is installed first? Naw. Does Windows read or write Linux filesystems? Naw. Has MS open-sourced any significant or important parts of Windows where it won't benefit directly? Naw. It is in MS' direct interests if PowerShell or .NET are supported on other platforms; it makes them more credible tools. Did we get source for Explorer or anything? Naw. Calculator. Big fat hairy deal. Has MS open-sourced any obsolete products that might actually be of use or interest, such as the final versions of MS-DOS (25 years old) or Windows 9x? Naw. They contain things like Explorer and so on that are still used. Can't go actually _helping_ people. It's all marketing flim-flam. Don't believe the hype. Linux is doing great on phones and servers and so on. On the desktop, only ChromeOS is not a rounding error. So, if MS can embrace-and-extend the Linux desktop, and make Win10 a better desktop Linux than Linux, then it helps MS and it helps Win10. And with what it learns from that, it can apply to WSL in the datacentre and on Azure, where it can make Windows Server a better Kubernetes than Kubernetes. Which, let's face it, would not be all that hard.
    - whizzter 6y ago
      MS doesn't care about Stallmans GNU goals. What they do care about are developers not being annoyed with working on a Windows machine (or nowadays using their Azure clouds). Speaking for myself, I'm coming from the gamedev world (lately webdev) and as such was mostly tied to windows due to various tools(Photoshop,Modo,3dsmax in the past,etc) but that didn't mean that I was going to suffer by using IIS or spend a fortune on Windows server licences or higher hardware reqs for appplication servers for no good reason. So yes, MS will ignore OSS for their core Windows stuff, HOWEVER they will probably also play nice in the wider OSS (If not FOSS) community since they probably see Azure as the third leg of the future (apart from Windows and Office) and as such will ensure that everyone who uses it (be it for Windows or Linux deployments) are happy with it (And trashing things in the OSS community will thus be counterproductive).

by ezoe 6y ago

Those poor workers who has to use Windows for Linux-related works because of stupid employer's policy previously use VM, so it doesn't change much. Nothing to be eaten.

dividedbyzero 6y ago

Nah, lots of shops begrudgingly support Linux laptops because a VM is a lot less practical, and the productivity hit would be substantial, probably, and forcing devs to make do with Windows only is bad for hiring. If WSL really works out, though, it might be the other way around – Linux on Windows might work really well, be able to do things Linux itself can't, like interfacing with Windows-only hardware, using DirectX, and be the superior experience in total for lots of people. It will be much, much harder to justify the expense of buying a whole different set of hardware and support it if the net result is a worse experience across the board. Businesses tend to not care much about freedom of software and the like.

zeveb 6y ago
> Linux on Windows might work really well … and be the superior experience in total for lots of people. No, it will not and — without massive changes at Microsoft and in Windows — will never be. Source: have a Windows box, am repeatedly amazed at how bad it is. Seriously, it is embarrassing to use Windows. I think the only reason people enjoy it is the fact that they have not gotten a chance to really spend time in a good tiling window manager on X11/GNU/Linux. The GUI is ugly and laggy. The ads are an insult. The shells are either childish or stupidly (emphasis on the stupid) verbose, and gratuitously incompatible. There seriously is no comparison: in 2020, Linux is head and shoulders above Windows on the desktop.
- corty 6y ago
  Most people who are happy with WoL are webdevs who do not really use anything beyond npm and git. So most people do not notice how bad things really are on Windows
- trashburger 6y ago
  Why is this getting downvoted? He's right. Refute his points instead of downvoting him.
  - jraph 6y ago
    > Why is this getting downvoted? He's right. Refute his points instead of downvoting him. >> I think the only reason people enjoy it is the fact that they have not gotten a chance to really spend time in a good tiling window manager on X11/GNU/Linux I don't like Windows, but its UI is not that bad, come on. Moreover, I use GNU/Linux full time but I don't use a tiling manager. My windows are fullscreen most of the time, and the rest of the time the features that allow putting windows on the corners or the sides (with the keyboard or the mouse) are more than enough. Tiling window managers are not for everyone. I didn't downvote but to me the message shows a lack of observation on how people use computers. The update manager that popups a notification or a dialog box or reboots in the middle of a presentation or a movie or something and, to add insult to injury, the system taking its time to apply the updates during the next startup? that could be embarrassing. Convenient UX features from the Linux world lacking on Windows are a thing (selection / middle click paste?), but Windows UI seems excellent. It's just less excellent than Plasma obviously, but it's nothing short of bad or embarrasing.
    - 2ion 6y ago
      > I don't like Windows, but its UI is not that bad, come on. I don't know. I am very OK with Win7 but I tried installing Win10 the other week on a VM in the intent to let it superseed my Linux on the desktop. The 125% scaling of UI made fonts blurry on my monitor and text inconsistently sized. The "dark" theme lets core apps like Explorer flicker in white then turn dark, like slow Android apps. There are mini ad programs in the start menu. I don't even know where you're supposed to configure settings anymore without search; the control panel vs fancy settings apps vs msc snapins (which are the only parts that still work reliably)? Their UI is worse than KDE or GNOME now. I had 3rd party applications working perfectly fine which I guess is the point but Windows10 UI is no marvel. This is a problem because Win7 used to just work, discretely. What's left is for me to experiment with group policy settings and suchlike (at least my edition permits it) in the hopes of getting my issues fixed. Probably have to throw in a ton of third-party "Windows 10 fix" powershell libraries to clean things up. I got the Win10 Enterprise license through my company. I would never pay money for this OS, privately.
- sm84258 6y ago
  you are being downvoted because kvm is just not capable of being hyper v and it never will be. hyper v is the best software in existance and windows will be fine forever.
  - 1MachineElf 6y ago
    My Hyper-V endeavor is basically a failed one, because on the latest version of Windows, running VMs still causes random bluescreens on my Ryzen-based workstation. I wish I could say it was good software, but it's very much lacking for me.
    - secondcoming 6y ago
      I use VMWare Player on a Win10 host and have never had an issue.
    - unicornfinder 6y ago
      Genuinely surprised to hear that - running a Ryzen 9 3900X on Windows 10 with HyperV and it's been rock solid for months.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    Is this sarcastic?
- vehemenz 6y ago
  > Linux is head and shoulders above Windows on the desktop When plug-and-play, drivers, and power management work correctly. When business software is compatible. When you don't have to search through obscure forums or jump on FreeNode to figure out why your wireless card doesn't work. When your filesystem corrupts and won't boot because you didn't shut it down correctly. When your font anti-aliasing and resolution scaling doesn't look like shit. When you have several hours a day to set things up, rather than getting work done.
  - saghm 6y ago
    > When plug-and-play, drivers, and power management work correctly. When business software is compatible. When you don't have to search through obscure forums or jump on FreeNode to figure out why your wireless card doesn't work. When your filesystem corrupts and won't boot because you didn't shut it down correctly. GP did say "in 2020"; I haven't had any of those issues for years
    - vehemenz 6y ago
      This is the same canned response we also had twenty years ago. "Works for me, so it's not an issue."
      - saghm 6y ago
        I agree that my experience is only one datapoint. But your comment was in response to someone who's experience was having more issues on Windows than Linux by saying that you don't have issues on Windows, which is the same thing. Personally, I run into way more issues when I try to use Windows than Linux; for example, whenever I boot into Windows on my desktop, it doesn't recognize that my ethernet cable is plugged in unless I unplug it and then replug it back in. It also sometimes just doesn't give any audio output when it boots up, and I have to reboot to get it to work. These and other issues I have may not be issues you run into, but they are just as valid experiences as the issues you might have with Linux. My point is that the argument that Windows "just works" out of the box is not as objective as you might think.
  - 6y ago
- hurrrrrrrr 6y ago
  > I think the only reason people enjoy it is the fact that they have not gotten a chance to really spend time in a good tiling window manager on X11/GNU/Linux. I did and switched back to floating. AMA
louwrentius 6y ago
I think the year of Linux on the desktop will be heralded by Microsoft introducing WSL3 that provides absolute compatibility with all Linux applications. ;-) Not that most people would want to run most of those, but Microsofts corporate customers are fed up with supporting those Linux laptops and all the problems related to that.
- whizzter 6y ago
  Really afaik the only thing missing from working well with mainline WSL2 now is some UI apps using GL,etc for X11 and iirc that is being worked so no need for any WSL3. Considering i've mostly used win envs to begin with this is already good enough that i see very few reasons to ever bother with installing Linux for myself again and even those are dwindling quickly.
  - louwrentius 6y ago
    Interesting, thank you!
throwaway2048 6y ago
WSL2 is a VM...
- unicornfinder 6y ago
  It is but it's an incredibly well integrated VM that's transparent to the user. I'm genuinely very, very happy developing on Windows with WSL2.
  - the8472 6y ago
    Does it support hardware performance counters needed for profiling yet? Or GPU acceleration?

patrec 6y ago

There is a non-zero chance WSL will make desktop Linux completely irrelevant even for developers.

znpy 6y ago
it's called "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish"
- lproven 6y ago
  This. It's been MICROS~1's primary tactic against competitors for at least 1/3 of a century now and nothing has changed: now the company just _says_ it likes FOSS. Does Windows set up dual-boot if Linux is installed first? Naw. Does Windows read or write Linux filesystems? Naw. Has MS open-sourced any significant or important parts of Windows where it won't benefit directly? Naw. It is in MS' direct interests if PowerShell or .NET are supported on other platforms; it makes them more credible tools. Did we get source for Explorer or anything? Naw. Calculator. Big fat hairy deal. Has MS open-sourced any obsolete products that might actually be of use or interest, such as the final versions of MS-DOS (25 years old) or Windows 9x? Naw. They contain things like Explorer and so on that are still used. Can't go actually _helping_ people. It's all marketing flim-flam. Don't believe the hype. Linux is doing great on phones and servers and so on. On the desktop, only ChromeOS is not a rounding error. So, if MS can embrace-and-extend the Linux desktop, and make Win10 a better desktop Linux than Linux, then it helps MS and it helps Win10. And with what it learns from that, it can apply to WSL in the datacentre and on Azure, where it can make Windows Server a better Kubernetes than Kubernetes. Which, let's face it, would not be all that hard.
  - whizzter 6y ago
    MS doesn't care about Stallmans GNU goals. What they do care about are developers not being annoyed with working on a Windows machine (or nowadays using their Azure clouds). Speaking for myself, I'm coming from the gamedev world (lately webdev) and as such was mostly tied to windows due to various tools(Photoshop,Modo,3dsmax in the past,etc) but that didn't mean that I was going to suffer by using IIS or spend a fortune on Windows server licences or higher hardware reqs for appplication servers for no good reason. So yes, MS will ignore OSS for their core Windows stuff, HOWEVER they will probably also play nice in the wider OSS (If not FOSS) community since they probably see Azure as the third leg of the future (apart from Windows and Office) and as such will ensure that everyone who uses it (be it for Windows or Linux deployments) are happy with it (And trashing things in the OSS community will thus be counterproductive).