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Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining
- grawprog 6y agoI don't really understand the point of this. Is outdoor dining and cold a new thing? Doesn't this happen every year at winter? Like someone paid money for this? >A report from Goldman Sachs Group Inc. indicated that 45F (7.2C) is the temperature below which demand for outdoor dining will collapse. (In a separate report, the company projected that outdoor dining demand would fall to 5% in December before rebounding in 2021. That and all the food they listed are typical winter dishes you find on menus every year. How is this newsworthy at all? ETA: I guess i'm the only person who's eaten at a restaurant with heated patios in November then. Those crowded tables around me must've been my imagination.
- ghaff 6y agoOutdoor dining is a new thing for a lot of restaurants given the current circumstances. That said, colder weather meals is only going to make a difference at the margin of whether people eat outside.
- stephenbez 6y ago> Is outdoor dining and cold a new thing? Doesn't this happen every year at winter? It’s a new thing. You’d normally never eat outside in the winter in cities like Chicago, Boston, or New York, but because of Coronavirus people will.
- nine_k 6y agoFood trucks operate year round. Restaurants could take a page from their book.
- munificent 6y agoRestaurants are already doing take-out. Most people don't eat the food truck, and certainly not when it's cold out, so I don't know what else restaurants would learn from them.
- nine_k 6y agoI meant the kinds of food,and its packaging maybe, that is known to work well in the cold. Wrapping things, serving things excessively hot, etc.
- jjulius 6y agoThere are multiple points in the article we are discussing that touch on how restaurants are pivoting how they serve dishes in order to keep them warm.
- jjulius 6y agoYou're talking about two fundamentally different operations. With food trucks, first and foremost, people don't "hang out" for as long as they might at a restaurant. It's more akin to fast food - get your food, wolf it down, get out. The process is also different - people approach a window, order their food, and then eat it wherever they want. They have the option of eating it near the truck, but the convenience of taking your food to a different area of your choosing (say, your warm and cozy house) is also there. In addition, in places where food trucks are hugely popular like Portland and Austin, there are "food truck parks" where multiple trucks congregate around a shared communal eating area that is often covered and heated. That space is often operated by an entity other than the food truck so the truck operators don't have to worry about it. Restaurants, on the other hand, are places where people like to hang out at for extended periods of time. Whereas at a food truck you might order all of your food at once, at a restaurant you're ordering your first drink, then an appetizer or two, then another round of drinks and your entree, then more drinks and your dessert. That process lasts a lot longer than your time at a food truck. There also isn't a convenient "communal area" like at a food truck park that is in the center of a block of restaurants that restaurants can send people to - restaurants must figure out how to build their own seating areas and provide ample warmth. Food trucks don't care about people being comfortable because that's not in their business model - you order your food and where you eat it is your problem. In order for restaurants to maintain business, they need to cater to the comfort and warmth of their customers.
- nprz 6y agoI doubt they will. Especially once temps hit near freezing, plus with wind and precipitation... If I owned a restaurant I would just make ordering take out as quick and convenient as possible.
- throwaway0a5e 6y agoThere's plenty of people who eat and drink (mostly drink, usually from cans) outside once every week or two in nearly zero (freedom degrees) temperatures. Often they also light a pile of pallets (and maybe even a fiberglass boat if the wind is right) on fire for warmth. It just so happens that people inclined to do these things have mostly all been driven out of major urban areas where the restaurants are and if they weren't they would mostly still not go downtown for overpriced beer.
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- echelon 6y agoNo restaurant that I can think of has outdoor dining in the winter. I live in Georgia, and our winters are fairly mild compared to northern states. Even so, outdoor dining in the wintertime is very uncomfortable. Winter is going to be very difficult for restaurants. If they don't adapt to serving meals outdoors, they may not survive. They're going to have to change a lot to create a comfortable environment for patrons. Fire pits, heaters, warm dishes: soups, stews, ramen, pho, pastas. Warm drinks and heated cocktails. All of this while maintaining safe social distancing. I've already seen a number of restaurants and bars make the attempt. It's pretty ingenuitive.
- yakz 6y agoI found outdoor seating at bars to be comfortable in the winter before the pandemic; the heaters work pretty well, and the fresh air is still much better than the crowded interior. I think it could work just fine, but might require an adjustment period. The pandemic will probably be over in a year, though, so at least in the USA, I don't see a great future in the near-term for mid-40Fs outdoor dining.
- munificent 6y ago> No restaurant that I can think of has outdoor dining in the winter. I live in Georgia, and our winters are fairly mild compared to northern states. I grew up in the South and live in the Pacific Northwest now. I think you see a lot less outdoor dining in the South not because of the winters but because of the summers. It's so hot that eating outside is miserable half the year, so restaurants aren't physically designed for outdoor dining during the couple of spring and fall months when it would be nice.
- echelon 6y ago> It's so hot that eating outside is miserable half the year This is wrong in my experience. There are hundreds of restaurants equipped for summer dining [1]. Lots of restaurants have open rooftops, patio seating, open-air "fireman"-style garage door walls, etc. Pretty much every BBQ joint and taqueria is outdoors. Outdoor eating is very popular in the Georgia summer. [1] https://www.gafollowers.com/13-rooftop-bars-atlanta/ https://www.gafollowers.com/13-rooftop-bars-atlanta/
- rsynnott 6y agoUp until today (when they were all closed) every restaurant near my house had a crowd of people eating outside in temperatures of around 8 degrees C. That’s not at all normal; they’d normally have abandoned outdoor seating by now. It’s a consequence of COVID regulations.
- ryandrake 6y agoSeems pretty crazy! I’m from the northeast and I can’t imagine people doing outdoor dining through the winter! Half the point of restaurant dining is the comfortable no-stress environment. Why would people go when they will be shivering outside under a little heater?
- rsynnott 6y agoIndoor restaurants aren’t allowed at the moment, so if people want to go out... I can’t see it continuing all the way through the winter, though; while it doesn’t get very cold here (minimum of about 0 C usually) it does get very windy. And all restaurants, even outdoors, are banned for the next six weeks, anyway.
- disgruntledphd2 6y agoYeah, my wife and I have been eating outside (in Ireland) since restaurants re-opened. To be fair, we used to be smokers, so were used to this before. Around September, everyone else stopped eating outside, and the staff often looked at us funny when we continued.
- smitty1110 6y agoHere id DC, eating outside in the winter sucks. Wind makes the outdoors miserable, and we have a tendency to get just-above-freezing rain. Outdoor seating just packs up for 4 months.
- prawn 6y agoRead the article (paywalled for me) and see who is mentioned. That is likely who paid for the PR. They're just making something normal into something topical.
- just-juan-post 6y agoI would go with a headline more along the lines of Chefs Forced to Change Menus due to Government Restrictions
- brendoelfrendo 6y agoHow about "chefs adapting to reality of life during a pandemic?"
- chrisco255 6y agoBecause there's dozens of states where indoor dining is not restricted at all and they're getting no different results in Covid cases?
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Because there's dozens of states where indoor dining is not restricted at all and they're getting no different results in Covid cases? Is that after adjusting for things like population density/urbanization? Also, while I don't have an easy cross references of case rates and restrictions, it certainly looks like the places at the top of per-capita case rates are also disproportionately places that have not had strong mandatory restrictions, so I suspect your claim is wrong as stated, too.
- chrisco255 6y agoDeaths Per Million By State: 1. New Jersey - 183 2. New York - 172 3. Massachusetts - 142 4. Connecticut - 128 5. Louisiana - 124 These states have had some of the harshest restrictions. They've gotten worse results than the mixed approach for the rest of the country. Good case in point: Michigan vs Florida. Both have about the same deaths per million at 74 and 75 respectively. Yet Florida is fully open with no restrictions. And Michigan had some of the harshest lockdowns and restrictions. Density may have been some kind of argument early on, but we are 9 or 10 months into this. The virus has had a chance to spread. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covi...
- skybrian 6y agoIsn’t it crazy what people will do to preserve their way of life when it no longer makes sense and there are good alternatives? Not every food works as takeout, but it’s hardly a deprivation.
- mumblemumble 6y agoThis doesn't seem that crazy to me. But I do live in a relatively cold climate. Outdoor dining in 50F weather was a thing we'd do even before the pandemic hit. Heck, I've done outdoor dining below freezing in the mountain town where my brother lives. The best way to combat cabin fever is to get out of the cabin.
- skybrian 6y agoWell sure, but there are plenty of less-risky outdoor activities during a pandemic.
- rsynnott 6y agoIt's a social thing more than anything else. People want to meet up with people; in many places outdoor bar/restaurant is one of the obvious ways to do this safely and legally.
- throwaway889900 6y agoI think the most odd thing is the cheap hardware store greenhouses for outdoor dining that are shown. I guess those patio heaters don't really do the trick do they?
- VectorLock 6y agoIf you build a greenhouse around your outdoor dining area, is it an outdoor dining area any more?
- graeme 6y agoDepends on how sealed it is. An actual greenhouse would not be. If the area is draughty and has a lot of air exchange it may actually be close to outdoors. A CO2 meter can give a quick approximation of whether the greenhouse canopy spacs is more like an inside or outside. My intuition was you’re right. But I could see it being the other way if it’s just a loose shield.
- xur17 6y agoFollowing that logic, it seems indoors would also be fine if they open up a bunch of windows?
- graeme 6y agoIn a place with wall windows, quite possibly! But it really depends on the airflow. You can use a co2 meter as a proxy. Outdoor levels are generally around 450 in a city. If your indoor space with open windows is there, you’re probably basically outside. If it is higher, you’re not. See here for example, co2 is a commonly used tracer gas: https://www.ghdonline.org/uploads/Measuring_Air_Changes.pdf https://www.ghdonline.org/uploads/Measuring_Air_Changes.pdf ————— To be clear. I think very few restaurants have enough windows to really be like outside with a bunch of people in there. I had a look at the greenhouses. Key difference from indoor dining: they prevent superspreader events. The problem with indoor dining is you have 30+ unmasked people dining in a poorly ventilated room. One infected person can infect many others. In a two person tent an infected person can infect at most their dining partner, assuming waiters are provided good sanitary measures.
- every 6y agoSomewhat along the same line, I expect a resurgence of outdoor beer gardens. Every super-spreader event to-date included a crowd, indoors, with poor ventilation and few if any masks in evidence. That is pretty much the definition of any standard bar, pub or tavern. And hey, outdoors in January your beer stays colder longer as a bonus...
- samcheng 6y agoMilwaukee has been reviving the beer garden concept for about a decade now. It works well - even in county parks! But not in January. https://county.milwaukee.gov/EN/Parks/Explore/Beer-Gardens https://county.milwaukee.gov/EN/Parks/Explore/Beer-Gardens Of course, it's a big part of the cultural heritage in Milwaukee, so municipal beer gardens may be a pipe dream in more puritanical cities.
- selectodude 6y agoThere's enough tailgating going on outdoors up in the north, I'm not sure a little bit of a nippy wind is going to keep anybody indoors :)
- every 6y agoI don't think we'll have any problems here in Texas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholz_Garten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholz_Garten
- julian_adams 6y agoDo they maintain the cleanliness of outdoor dining?
- mensetmanusman 6y agoLocal heating units (clothing/chairs/IR light beams) with human body temperature feedback to make outdoors comfortable during the winter is totally possible now. What is the best product in this space?
- xenihn 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System
- HeWhoLurksLate 6y agoWelp, learned something I wasn't expecting today. Thanks! shudder
- mensetmanusman 6y agoSounds like local police forces should get this to help keep citizens comfortable while they eat.
- Shared404 6y agoThough humorous, this comment serves as a good reminder that anything can be weaponized, and anything can be used as a constructive tool.
- asdff 6y agoPretty interesting, but from the wiki article looks like it might melt and blur out tattoos which would be a no go in public.
- jariel 6y agoIt's common in Europe but didn't quite catch on in the milder US states, maybe it will now. It's actually a nice concept, but NY state and North it won't work every day, and unlike 'breaking for rain'. there are long periods of at least several days, sometimes weeks, where it's 'too dam cold' which makes it really hard to operate, i.e. 'just on the nice days'. And FYI for the skiiers chiming in, it's not the same thing. Skiiers are already 'being active', they're bundled up and prepared for cold, and 'doing an outdoor activity'. That said - Montreal 'defeats winter' with weekend long raves in the dead of winter, getting more 'bundled up' for 'outdoor dining' might possibly be a cultural shift that could be made if enough people were on board and it became 'a thing'.
- 908B64B197 6y agoIn northern places like Montreal, the issue probably won't be the cold but the amount of snow.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoManhattan has had outdoor winter dining on Stone St. for a few years. It benefits from being a sheltered narrow space easy to fill with tents and trap heat.
- jariel 6y agoYes, there are places here and there, but it's not common, or a cultural understanding - people don't know to go out and do it). It needs to be something promoted widely in order for it to 'catch on' as a cultural touchstone.
- paxys 6y agoClosed streets and expanded outdoor dining is the best thing to come to SF during the pandemic, especially since the weather is mild enough that they can be utilized year-round. I really hope the city decides to extend them beyond December.
- eatonphil 6y agoSame in NYC. It's so great to see the almost competition by restaurants to outdo each other in designing outdoor spaces. I really hope these changes stay permanently. My only gripe is that we haven't figured out the European style where all the seats face the road. :)
- baby 6y agoThat’s mostly in Paris. Don’t think I’ve seen that elsewhere.
- adewinter 6y agoNetherlands and Belgium do it too.
- ejvincent 6y agoBarcelona too.
- baby 6y agoReally? I’ve been there many times and have never noticed. Maybe it’s a newer trend?
- maigret 6y agoIt's not a new trend. People in latin countries like to look at what is happening on the street. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/paris-cafe-1950s.html https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/paris-cafe-1950s.html
- kbenson 6y agoThe few times I've eaten outside in the evening the last few months, I've noted how whichever companies that make those outdoor space heaters are probably experiencing a huge boom, as every restaurant capable sports a new or larger outdoor dining area, and even some that aren't capable get public sector help to make it so (e.g. in my city they closed the major downtown strip to auto traffic to allow outdoor dining areas to take up the entire sidewalk and some of the road).
- baby 6y agoI believe these have been banned in Paris terasse due to the pollution they produce.
- nthn_g 6y agoThat is correct, though the ban will not come into force before the end of winter as restaurants have been hard hit by Covid-19. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53552526 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53552526
- mumblemumble 6y agoI'm curious what the energy formula on those things looks like. Is cold weather outdoor socializing going to help us catch up on the backlog of fossil fuel we haven't been burning in our cars?
- Flashtoo 6y agoA quick calculation: space heating in food service normally uses 46 trillion BTU of energy [1]. That's 0.05% of all energy consumed in the US, which has dipped by about 10-15% [2]. So if these space heaters would increase heating energy use 5-fold annually across the entire food service industry (I think that's a high estimate), that would undo 2% of the dip. [1] https://www.eia.gov/consumption/commercial/data/2012/c&e/pdf/e1-e11.pdf https://www.eia.gov/consumption/commercial/data/2012/c&e/pdf..., table E1. [2] https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec2_3.pdf https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec2_3.pdf
- nemo44x 6y agoBraising and the like are a really nice thing to learn to make since you make a lot of delicious food in one go and once you get some technique down you can adapt it constantly. You’re limited only by the size of your pot. Additionally the ingredients tend to be inexpensive compared to “nicer” cuts. Similar to BBQ. Not to mention the end result doesn’t have to be stews, etc. I like to braise brisket in a liquid of peppers and stock and then use the resulting liquid for salsa’s and shred the meat for tacos.
- Simulacra 6y agoOnly if the weather is nice... it gets down into the teens here. No way I’m eating outdoors.
- CuriouslyC 6y agoNow we just need to relax about street food, kitchen requirements and health codes a bit, and lower the bar to becoming a food entrepreneur. Making food is one of the most basic things people do, yet we've put a $50k+ barrier of entry on what constitutes an acceptable kitchen, along with massive regulatory hoops that have to be jumped through. I think there's still a place for inspections, but unless you're absolutely terrible it should be informational for consumers rather than a hurdle that must be passed before doing business. Let people choose to eat at uninspected facilities if they want (with the knowledge of what they're doing), and have liability laws in place for when things go wrong. While we're at it, we should make it easier to become a street vendor. We encourage children to be entrepreneurial with lemonade stands and bake sales, yet it's stupidly hard to actually do something like this as a real business.