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> the hospitalised with ventilator sub-group So this affects almost nobody then, and is probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization and ventilator organ d

> the hospitalised with ventilator sub-group So this affects almost nobody then, and is probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization and ventilator organ damage, aside from corona.

fogihujy 6y ago
Well, the fact that someone was uable to breathe on their own also suggests that the virus may have caused a lack of oxygen to the brain. In such circumstances brain damage is quite likely, and then the disease would indeed be the cause. Fortunately, the group of people that end up on ventilators is not really that large, and I can imagine minor brain damage would still be preferable to death in many of those cases. As a sibling commented, theeffects that won't start to manifest until a year or two has passed are more worrying. There's simply so much we don't know about this virus yet.
- neuronic 6y ago
  People are unable to worry about or comprehend the effects that happen right NOW. I am a staunch believer in post-viral syndrome as I experienced it first hand following an Epstein-Barr infection (mono) but aside from a handful of researchers nobody cares at all. For most physicians, it isn't even within the realm of possibilities when you come to them with random maladies. Boom, now you have anxiety because that's what they tell you when they don't know shit. There are so many bodily issues that arose after my Epstein-Barr infection, it's not funny at all. I can absolutely lead a normal life and am active and athletic. But things like autoimmune issues, persistent 15-year brain fog (I'd rather call it frosted glass layer) which randomly clears once a month to remind me how nice it is to be able to think straight, or full-body-numbing attacks in the middle of a gas station. The first 5 years after the disease I regularly felt like passing out. Later I just got dizzy and learned to control it using water and temperature changes (cold water in back of your neck!). I still took on the anxiety story and did something against it. It helped me in many ways but not with post-viral syndrome. It's real and it sucks but it's not being taken seriously at all. I am afraid, some COVID survivors are in for a new life which is different in just the right (but minor) ways to drive you insane. Body just doesn't feel the same as before.
  - rtp 6y ago
    It's amazing how people think a virus that lives latently in B cells and epithelial cells, and is strongly associated with various forms of cancer among a big helping of autoimmune disorders, is incapable of causing post-viral syndromes. No, it must be anxiety, of course! EDIT: Just because a disease makes you frustrated because you can't really do anything about it except empathize and listen, doesn't mean you can just slap the anxiety band-aid on it and call it a day.
    - neuronic 6y ago
      Correct, I don't expect doctors to cure me. I expect them to acknowledge that EBV could play a part here. But nope, just anxiety.
  - throwaway1092 6y ago
    > But things like autoimmune issues, persistent 15-year brain fog (I'd rather call it frosted glass layer) which randomly clears once a month to remind me how nice it is to be able to think straight I've been experiencing something similar for the past 5 years: brain fog (frosted glass is a much better way of putting it.) and some short term memory issues. The doctors put me through a battery of tests to find...that they could find no reason for my ailment. Curious to know what if anything has helped you the most. The 'randomly clearing' brain fog for a day happens to me maybe once every 3 months and it's both a blessing and a curse.
    - jokab 6y ago
      Sorry to hear this. I cured mine with a CPAP machine. I had to be tested with apnea twice bc the first one came out ok but i wasnt convinced. In any case, i hope you feel better
      - throwaway1092 6y ago
        Thanks - already had/have a CPAP machine, so unfortunately that's not it.
  - 6y ago
ghufran_syed 6y ago
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted - here’s a page about post-intensive care syndrome, on the website of the society for critical care medicine, that’s concordant with what you said: https://www.sccm.org/MyICUCare/THRIVE/Post-intensive-Care-Syndrome https://www.sccm.org/MyICUCare/THRIVE/Post-intensive-Care-Sy...
- noja 6y ago
  > Not sure why you’re getting downvoted I think he overlooked that the people were hospitalized and on ventilators because they had covid.
  - xd 6y ago
    But it's still an effect of the treatment. If you perform a study on people whom have been ill you're going to get results that show all the symptoms of illness.. the study could have been done with any illness and likely show cognitive decline.
    - shultays 6y ago
      symptoms of illness is the illness itself. Ignoring these symptoms of covid or results of the treatment is saying something like "bullets don't kill people, it ruptures blood vessels and you die due to loss of blood"
      - srtjstjsj 6y ago
        You misunderstand the ambiguous wording. If you study only includes people with an illness, the illness itself is a confounder. The point is that if you have a non-ICU covid case, this research is unlikely to apply.
        jrumbut 6y ago
        It feels like we didn't read the same article, they break down numbers for people on ventilators but also hospitalized, non-ventilator patients all the way down to those who received no particular care. The findings were concerning to anyone who had it, they also mention cases where the cognitive deficit was the first reported symptom.
xd 6y ago
Also, I had a brief look over the paper but couldn't find anything to control for isolation since lockdown .. surely this would of had an effect on peoples cognition. On a side note, maybe it's just me but I keep seeing comments that don't follow a "politically" accepted view point, being down vote like yours.
- w_t_payne 6y ago
  Maybe it's because this whole situation has been ridiculously politicized, to the point where it's difficult to have a rational fact-based discussion.
  - hejja 6y ago
    ...about anything. not just covid.
    - EForEndeavour 6y ago
      That's exactly what someone with your political beliefs would say!!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jmull 6y ago
  I don't know why people downvote things, but in this case I would hope it's because the previous comment was pretty superficial. Whether the covid causes cognitive decline through causing the use of a ventilator, sedatives, and immobilization or through some other mechanism still means it causes cognitive decline. So there's a basic logic flaw. Also, quite a large number of people have been put on ventilators due to covid-19, not "almost nobody". That's just an incorrect assertion. You'd like to attribute the downvoting to politics, but given the quality issues, I think that's a hard claim to support.
- api 6y ago
  If isolation with a net connection for a few months dropped multiple IQ points, then all the shut-ins who do nothing but hang around on the Internet all day would be losing multiple tens of IQ points a year and would be functionally disabled by now.
regularfry 6y ago
The error bars overlap with the "hospitalised without ventilation" group. There's probably something else going on, and the authors do call out the known cognitive effects of hypoxia.
nradov 6y ago
There is some evidence that anesthetics can cause cognitive impairment. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443620/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443620/
- kube-system 6y ago
  I was under the impression, at least as it pertained to the elderly, that GA is commonly known to be a significant risk.
  - nradov 6y ago
    Any type of long hospital stay frequently causes delirium among the elderly. GA makes it worse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3065676/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3065676/
simonh 6y ago
Most of the impact seems to occur even without serious symptoms: >bio-positive cases who reported being ill with no breathing difficulties showed a 0.32SD magnitude cognitive deficit. My wife's hospital was full to the corridors with 'almost nobody's.
paradox242 6y ago
As other have already commented, they have already considered your theory in their analysis: "Consequently, the observation of post-infection deficits in the subgroup who were put on a ventilator was not surprising. Conversely, the deficits in cases who were not put on a ventilator, particularly those who remained at home, was unexpected." This effect on those hospitalized is not the primary thrust of their paper. Instead it was the observed effects on those who were not hospitalized or had mild to no respiratory symptoms. They raise many possibilities about why this may be the case and only assert that this effect at least proceeds into the recovery phase. I did not read any claims about this being permanent, broadly speaking.
biolurker1 6y ago
As many previous comments said, the article includes mild disease

> the hospitalised with ventilator sub-group So this affects almost nobody then, and is probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization and ventilator organ damage, aside from corona.

fogihujy 6y ago

Well, the fact that someone was uable to breathe on their own also suggests that the virus may have caused a lack of oxygen to the brain. In such circumstances brain damage is quite likely, and then the disease would indeed be the cause. Fortunately, the group of people that end up on ventilators is not really that large, and I can imagine minor brain damage would still be preferable to death in many of those cases. As a sibling commented, theeffects that won't start to manifest until a year or two has passed are more worrying. There's simply so much we don't know about this virus yet.

neuronic 6y ago
People are unable to worry about or comprehend the effects that happen right NOW. I am a staunch believer in post-viral syndrome as I experienced it first hand following an Epstein-Barr infection (mono) but aside from a handful of researchers nobody cares at all. For most physicians, it isn't even within the realm of possibilities when you come to them with random maladies. Boom, now you have anxiety because that's what they tell you when they don't know shit. There are so many bodily issues that arose after my Epstein-Barr infection, it's not funny at all. I can absolutely lead a normal life and am active and athletic. But things like autoimmune issues, persistent 15-year brain fog (I'd rather call it frosted glass layer) which randomly clears once a month to remind me how nice it is to be able to think straight, or full-body-numbing attacks in the middle of a gas station. The first 5 years after the disease I regularly felt like passing out. Later I just got dizzy and learned to control it using water and temperature changes (cold water in back of your neck!). I still took on the anxiety story and did something against it. It helped me in many ways but not with post-viral syndrome. It's real and it sucks but it's not being taken seriously at all. I am afraid, some COVID survivors are in for a new life which is different in just the right (but minor) ways to drive you insane. Body just doesn't feel the same as before.
- rtp 6y ago
  It's amazing how people think a virus that lives latently in B cells and epithelial cells, and is strongly associated with various forms of cancer among a big helping of autoimmune disorders, is incapable of causing post-viral syndromes. No, it must be anxiety, of course! EDIT: Just because a disease makes you frustrated because you can't really do anything about it except empathize and listen, doesn't mean you can just slap the anxiety band-aid on it and call it a day.
  - neuronic 6y ago
    Correct, I don't expect doctors to cure me. I expect them to acknowledge that EBV could play a part here. But nope, just anxiety.
- throwaway1092 6y ago
  > But things like autoimmune issues, persistent 15-year brain fog (I'd rather call it frosted glass layer) which randomly clears once a month to remind me how nice it is to be able to think straight I've been experiencing something similar for the past 5 years: brain fog (frosted glass is a much better way of putting it.) and some short term memory issues. The doctors put me through a battery of tests to find...that they could find no reason for my ailment. Curious to know what if anything has helped you the most. The 'randomly clearing' brain fog for a day happens to me maybe once every 3 months and it's both a blessing and a curse.
  - jokab 6y ago
    Sorry to hear this. I cured mine with a CPAP machine. I had to be tested with apnea twice bc the first one came out ok but i wasnt convinced. In any case, i hope you feel better
    - throwaway1092 6y ago
      Thanks - already had/have a CPAP machine, so unfortunately that's not it.
- 6y ago

ghufran_syed 6y ago

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted - here’s a page about post-intensive care syndrome, on the website of the society for critical care medicine, that’s concordant with what you said: https://www.sccm.org/MyICUCare/THRIVE/Post-intensive-Care-Syndrome https://www.sccm.org/MyICUCare/THRIVE/Post-intensive-Care-Sy...

noja 6y ago
> Not sure why you’re getting downvoted I think he overlooked that the people were hospitalized and on ventilators because they had covid.
- xd 6y ago
  But it's still an effect of the treatment. If you perform a study on people whom have been ill you're going to get results that show all the symptoms of illness.. the study could have been done with any illness and likely show cognitive decline.
  - shultays 6y ago
    symptoms of illness is the illness itself. Ignoring these symptoms of covid or results of the treatment is saying something like "bullets don't kill people, it ruptures blood vessels and you die due to loss of blood"
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      You misunderstand the ambiguous wording. If you study only includes people with an illness, the illness itself is a confounder. The point is that if you have a non-ICU covid case, this research is unlikely to apply.
      - jrumbut 6y ago
        It feels like we didn't read the same article, they break down numbers for people on ventilators but also hospitalized, non-ventilator patients all the way down to those who received no particular care. The findings were concerning to anyone who had it, they also mention cases where the cognitive deficit was the first reported symptom.

xd 6y ago

Also, I had a brief look over the paper but couldn't find anything to control for isolation since lockdown .. surely this would of had an effect on peoples cognition. On a side note, maybe it's just me but I keep seeing comments that don't follow a "politically" accepted view point, being down vote like yours.

w_t_payne 6y ago
Maybe it's because this whole situation has been ridiculously politicized, to the point where it's difficult to have a rational fact-based discussion.
- hejja 6y ago
  ...about anything. not just covid.
  - EForEndeavour 6y ago
    That's exactly what someone with your political beliefs would say!!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jmull 6y ago
I don't know why people downvote things, but in this case I would hope it's because the previous comment was pretty superficial. Whether the covid causes cognitive decline through causing the use of a ventilator, sedatives, and immobilization or through some other mechanism still means it causes cognitive decline. So there's a basic logic flaw. Also, quite a large number of people have been put on ventilators due to covid-19, not "almost nobody". That's just an incorrect assertion. You'd like to attribute the downvoting to politics, but given the quality issues, I think that's a hard claim to support.
api 6y ago
If isolation with a net connection for a few months dropped multiple IQ points, then all the shut-ins who do nothing but hang around on the Internet all day would be losing multiple tens of IQ points a year and would be functionally disabled by now.

regularfry 6y ago

The error bars overlap with the "hospitalised without ventilation" group. There's probably something else going on, and the authors do call out the known cognitive effects of hypoxia.

nradov 6y ago

There is some evidence that anesthetics can cause cognitive impairment. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443620/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443620/

kube-system 6y ago
I was under the impression, at least as it pertained to the elderly, that GA is commonly known to be a significant risk.
- nradov 6y ago
  Any type of long hospital stay frequently causes delirium among the elderly. GA makes it worse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3065676/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3065676/

simonh 6y ago

Most of the impact seems to occur even without serious symptoms: >bio-positive cases who reported being ill with no breathing difficulties showed a 0.32SD magnitude cognitive deficit. My wife's hospital was full to the corridors with 'almost nobody's.

paradox242 6y ago

As other have already commented, they have already considered your theory in their analysis: "Consequently, the observation of post-infection deficits in the subgroup who were put on a ventilator was not surprising. Conversely, the deficits in cases who were not put on a ventilator, particularly those who remained at home, was unexpected." This effect on those hospitalized is not the primary thrust of their paper. Instead it was the observed effects on those who were not hospitalized or had mild to no respiratory symptoms. They raise many possibilities about why this may be the case and only assert that this effect at least proceeds into the recovery phase. I did not read any claims about this being permanent, broadly speaking.

biolurker1 6y ago

As many previous comments said, the article includes mild disease