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"Sign in with Apple" requires a developer account with Apple. Having saw Epic's developer account terminated by Apple, I would definitely stay away from any "S

by yegle 6y ago

"Sign in with Apple" requires a developer account with Apple. Having saw Epic's developer account terminated by Apple, I would definitely stay away from any "Sign in with Apple". (FWIW, the only 2fa with "Sign in with Apple", if you don't own any Apple hardware, is SMS.)

dwaite 6y ago
Apple did not terminate Epic's SiwA account, and several journalists have sources within Apple that say that Apple never sent the message Epic claimed to receive that said access was going away.
- virtue3 6y ago
  https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/123774 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/123774 Not the only ones that randomly gets their accounts terminated. Based on how apple has -insane- fragmentation and security for different aspects of the company, I would doubt any employee that isn't directly tied into the store accounts would know the whole details. (Source: GF worked for the department that did art/design for the apple stores, no one had access to their room, and they had more secure rooms that only a few employees had access to). FWIW google has the same issues. Don't trust a company with an account that you can't get a human on the phone for to review shit.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I use Sign In with Apple everywhere I can (so many of my passwords are in haveibeenpwned datasets), and if Apple blacklisted a provider I use, I’d expect the service to email me to migrate to their own email/password identity provider (if I didn’t hide my email from them with SIWA), with a link to the migration process in the email.
    - dkonofalski 6y ago
      Same except that, if Apple blacklisted a provider, I'd want to know why they got blacklisted. At this point, I trust Apple as a neutral third party more than I trust most other companies since Apple isn't incentivized to sell my info.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Agreed, with the caveat that we need some regulation through legislation to codify safeguards around identity providers, their responsibilities, etc.
  - mvanbaak 6y ago
    > Not the only ones that randomly Not really random now right...
  - dwaite 6y ago
    That does not necessarily have anything to do with SiwA, however.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Tim Sweeney produced a letter saying that Apple would terminate their access: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...
  - jsjohnst 6y ago
    That’s a pretty misleading interpretation of what Apple said or even what Tim Sweeney said in the tweet...
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      How so?
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        > Apple is entirely in its rights to terminate Epic Games’ developer account and all related functionality, but SIWA will continue to function for two weeks. Ok, let’s translate it: 1) Apple believes it’s entirely in its rights to terminate Epic’s dev account and is doing so 2) Apple also believes it’s in their right to kill all related account functionally, but they aren’t, specifically with SIWA, for at least two weeks. 3) they don’t specify what will happen after two weeks, as that likely depends on several factors. We later learn that they extended it indefinitely. So there’s multiple possible scenarios: A) Apple really is just threatening as you indicated, but not being blatantly direct about it. Possible, but not the only possibility, and not usually their style from what I’ve seen for something like this, but who knows. I feel if Apple really wanted to threaten, they’d make the threat explicit and say “after two weeks of non-compliance, we will terminate everything”. B) Apple is stalling making a decision over if SIWA will continue to be available to Epic’s users to ensure the SIWA team can support it when the dev account is deactivated. From other rumors where we hear folks saying SIWA team did have to make changes, I’m thinking this was the likely scenario. Don’t make a commitment to keep something going if you can’t deliver on it for sure yet, so “give them a two week extension” so you learn if you can actually keep SIWA up. If they can’t and Epic is still fighting with Fire, maybe you do terminate SIWA, but maybe not. Either way, Apple wins. C) Apple is stalling a decision to scare Epic into compliance after Epic’s users backlash over word it might end. Possible, but I think Epic had well shown they were ready to play the Russian roulette game with Apple down to the last chamber, so I’m thinking less likely than A/B. So if I was a betting man, I’d say it’s a mixed bag at best, but would likely go: B > A > C Apple doesn’t play checkers, they play chess. When they send a letter like that, they ensure there’s multiple positive outcomes for them for any potential scenario, from technical complications, to user perception, to legal proceedings, etc.
otterley 6y ago
> Having saw Epic's developer account terminated by Apple, I would definitely stay away from any "Sign in with Apple". If you don't renege on your agreements with Apple as part of a public pissing contest, and you aren't in the business of misleading customers and creating deceptive apps, it's unlikely they'll revoke your developer account.
- Qahlel 6y ago
  unilateral agreements that one side can change on a whim is not something that one would call a fair agreement in the first place.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    unilateral agreements that one side can change on a whim is not something that one would call a fair agreement in the first place. Wait till you read the fine print in your cell phone contract.
  - olliej 6y ago
    Well, both companies do that - The various epic EULAs let them behave just as apple does, so they can't argue it's unfair unless they want all their existing EULAs to be invalidated as well.
  - otterley 6y ago
    Do you really think a company the size of Apple is going to separately negotiate terms of service with every developer that wants to publish an app? Contracts of adhesion are just a part of life. We agree to them practically every day whenever we do business with a third party. And if you were in the other party's shoes, you'd do the same thing; otherwise you couldn't practically run a business.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  But we can still avoid Apple services in support of those Apple doesn't like, open standards and free competition.
- yegle 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
krtkush 6y ago
> I would definitely stay away from any "Sign in with Apple". I would stay away from any "Sign in with.." service as a user and as a product owner. You're affectively giving away a major control of your users to a third party.
- yegle 6y ago
  I think "Sign in with Apple" is unique that Apple allows the users to hide their email address https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425 which makes it extremely hard to migrate away, unlike other federated login system where you can at least get users' email addresses, allowing you to create a proper email+password login later on.
  - the_arun 6y ago
    I think it is very private. The third party app cannot sell the attached email address to others. But I agree if you sign up with the third party using your apple id, they will not know you which may end up in creating second account. If they don't have account linking feature, it will be messy.
    - dkonofalski 6y ago
      Apple announced an account linking feature as a requirement at WWDC this year.
  - gowld 6y ago
    How is that? It's the developer's choice of they want to let me add a second login to the same account.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  so, if you're a service that posts memes to twitter, or facebook you should always use email and sms two factor, no 'sign in with facebook/twitter' links?
- KMnO4 6y ago
tshaddox 6y ago
Even if you don’t like Apple’s actions in the whole Epic drama, one thing that’s clear from it is that Apple probably won’t terminate your developer account like this unless you beg them to as part of a major PR stunt.
- thefounder 6y ago
  >> Apple probably won’t terminate your developer account Or probably they will terminate it if they don't like your business
- yegle 6y ago
  But they can expand the prohibited uses clause in the future if they see fit. https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guidelines-for-websites-and-other-platforms/ https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guideli...
  - parasubvert 6y ago
    Contracts can be changed based on pre-agreed terms, film at 11 At some point, people need to do business. Worrying about hypotheticals leads to paralysis.
mvanbaak 6y ago
you do know EPIC did break a lot of clauses in their contract, knowing what the impact of breaking these clauses was, and still breaking all those clauses?
ogre_codes 6y ago
As a user I would prefer no account in most cases. As a distant second, I would prefer the convenience, security, and privacy of Sign in with Apple over Google, Facebook, or the headache of managing yet another web account. As a developer, I use my preferences as a user to steer my choices, but recognize that the world doesn't revolve around Apple so would allow other options. > Having saw Epic's developer account t... Since I have zero need to deliberately violate Apple's App Story policy, I don't worry about this overmuch.
- qppo 6y ago
  I've had an issue with sign-in with Apple where using an autogenerated emails ruins certain support interactions. One of them was cancelling a subscription service that was eventually resolved (they required me to email their customer support, which I couldn't figure out how to do using the autogenerated email address created by "sign-in with Apple").
  - matthewmacleod 6y ago
    While it’s frustrating and worth pointing out of course - what really happened there was a bug in the service provider’s support process!
    - qppo 6y ago
      It was actually a dark pattern, not a bug.
  - tchalla 6y ago
    It would be helpful if you could let us know how you managed to send that e-mail.
    - mr_toad 6y ago
      You can see the email that Apple generates: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210426 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210426
floatingatoll 6y ago
It's weird to see you using this example, given that Apple specifically went out of their way to continue operating Sign in with Apple for all of Epic's users. Can you talk more about why you would stay away from it when developing for Apple platforms?
madeofpalk 6y ago
For what it's worth, it's been said (by anonymous sources, no one on the record) that Apple did not threaten to terminate Epic's "Sign in with Apple" accounts/features, and they spent extra effort to maintain their access to that after their account was terminated. I do not know if other terminated accounts get this "luxury".
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Epic did say it was going to be terminated, presumably as part of the overall account termination. They then updated that it would continue to work. https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-with-apple-will-keep-working-fortnite https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-wit... Apple commented they weren’t doing anything to stop Sign In with Apple working, but I have to wonder if there’s a lie of omission in there. Like “We aren’t doing anything deliberate to stop it, but it’s going to stop as a side effect of terminating their developer account.” Either that or Epic was lying outright.
  - madeofpalk 6y ago
    unnamed sources have said that Epic was outright lying https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unreliable-narrator https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unre... > multiple sources at Apple told me Epic’s claims were simply false. There was never a September 11 deadline for their SIWA support to stop working, and in fact, Apple’s SIWA team performed work to make sure SIWA continued working for Fortnite users despite the fact that Epic Games’s developer account had been revoked.
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      So the other question, is this a standard behavior, or a special circumstance because of Epic's high profile? Or more to the point, if Apple terminates your developer account, do you think Apple's SIWA team will "perform work to make sure SIWA continues working" for your users? If work is actually required, I'm not optimistic.
    - 6y ago
snowwrestler 6y ago
It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. That said, it's generally true that any dependence on a platform is a form of risk. There are documented examples of Google kicking people out of their ecosystem unexpectedly too. Federated sign-in schemes may be a good idea if they help your users create accounts and authenticate more easily, but it certainly seems smart to offer more than one, including your own email-based option.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Apple isn't perfect, and yeah, you might run into a situation where you have to sue. Them taking away the ability for half your users two sign in to your app while your dispute makes its way through the courts is seriously problematic.
  - jen729w 6y ago
    I don’t think it’s ever been shown that Apple did this at all, let alone maliciously. If anyone has a source to the contrary, we need it here please. And I mean a documented source, not hearsay. Edit: there’s discussion below.
- ROARosen 6y ago
  >It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. Nevertheless, the suspension still clearly highlights the fealty you are expected to give to Apple being a dev on their platform, or else.
  - tomc1985 6y ago
    And neither is Epic the first nor last of the kind of people who want to pick this fight with Apple, even if they can't
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
beached_whale 6y ago
Epic asked them to terminate the account though.
danudey 6y ago
Note that Epic claimed that "Sign in with Apple" was going to get terminated, but Apple says that wasn't true: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-with-apple-will-keep-working-fortnite https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-wit... And IIRC it all still works anyway, so this sounds like Epic either being confused about itself or lying to make Apple look like the bad guy (more). And bear in mind that anyone using any third-party auth (like Twitter, Facebook or Google OAuth) could have their developer accounts terminated for violating the rules, same as Apple. I guess the key takeaway here is "if you're relying on someone else's services, don't flagrantly disregard the service's rules publicly in order to start a lawsuit and then try the case in the court of public opinion", but I think that's good advice for any service.
- dirtae 6y ago
  Apple's claim is false: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...
supah 6y ago
Except the 2FA is kinda stupid. I have devices logged into my iCloud account at a datacenter, that end up getting my 2FA for my other devices. I have a iPhone, iPad, Macbook, do you think any device I actually use all the time gets the 2FA code ? Sometimes, the same computer i’m using to login gets the code which is kinda pointless. I have to always use SMS to get my code because of this.
- xodice 6y ago
  Every single device on your iCloud account gets the 2FA prompt. You then choose which device you want to confirm the request on. The prompt does not go to just a single device, but every single device on said iCloud account.
benlivengood 6y ago
Why don't sites start supporting multiple federated identities? It shouldn't be too hard to keep the "sign in with X" links on the account settings page, right?
guptaneil 6y ago
While there's always a risk anytime you build on top of someone else's platform, it's worth noting that it looks like Epic lied[0] about getting blocked from Sign in with Apple. There's no evidence they were going to lose access to it, even with a terminated developer account. 0: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unreliable-narrator https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unre...
- dirtae 6y ago
  False. https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...
  - guptaneil 6y ago
    Ahh thanks for sharing that. That’s good to know. Super disappointed Gruber didn’t update his post with that information, especially given his recent campaign against editorial integrity.
dbt00 6y ago
Note that Epic claims Apple was going to disable "sign in with Apple", but Apple did not do so and has claimed through unattributed press quotes that they were never going to do so, that Epic made that up.
- dirtae 6y ago
  Apple's claim is false, and can be shown to be false via documents in the court filing: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...
jbverschoor 6y ago
Yeah same for me. I was super happy with sign in with apple as a concept, but I have exactly 1 account with them. After the epic account-hijacking, no thank you. I will never ever use it again.
davweb 6y ago
Sign in with Apple still works for Fortnite. [1] According to Epic, Apple said they were going to turn it off and then changed their minds. Apple's position is they were never going to turn off Sign in with Apple for Epic. [1]: https://twitter.com/FortniteStatus/status/1304161432888643584 https://twitter.com/FortniteStatus/status/130416143288864358...

by yegle 6y ago

dwaite 6y ago

Apple did not terminate Epic's SiwA account, and several journalists have sources within Apple that say that Apple never sent the message Epic claimed to receive that said access was going away.

virtue3 6y ago
https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/123774 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/123774 Not the only ones that randomly gets their accounts terminated. Based on how apple has -insane- fragmentation and security for different aspects of the company, I would doubt any employee that isn't directly tied into the store accounts would know the whole details. (Source: GF worked for the department that did art/design for the apple stores, no one had access to their room, and they had more secure rooms that only a few employees had access to). FWIW google has the same issues. Don't trust a company with an account that you can't get a human on the phone for to review shit.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  I use Sign In with Apple everywhere I can (so many of my passwords are in haveibeenpwned datasets), and if Apple blacklisted a provider I use, I’d expect the service to email me to migrate to their own email/password identity provider (if I didn’t hide my email from them with SIWA), with a link to the migration process in the email.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    Same except that, if Apple blacklisted a provider, I'd want to know why they got blacklisted. At this point, I trust Apple as a neutral third party more than I trust most other companies since Apple isn't incentivized to sell my info.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Agreed, with the caveat that we need some regulation through legislation to codify safeguards around identity providers, their responsibilities, etc.
- mvanbaak 6y ago
  > Not the only ones that randomly Not really random now right...
- dwaite 6y ago
  That does not necessarily have anything to do with SiwA, however.
saagarjha 6y ago
Tim Sweeney produced a letter saying that Apple would terminate their access: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  That’s a pretty misleading interpretation of what Apple said or even what Tim Sweeney said in the tweet...
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    How so?
    - jsjohnst 6y ago
      > Apple is entirely in its rights to terminate Epic Games’ developer account and all related functionality, but SIWA will continue to function for two weeks. Ok, let’s translate it: 1) Apple believes it’s entirely in its rights to terminate Epic’s dev account and is doing so 2) Apple also believes it’s in their right to kill all related account functionally, but they aren’t, specifically with SIWA, for at least two weeks. 3) they don’t specify what will happen after two weeks, as that likely depends on several factors. We later learn that they extended it indefinitely. So there’s multiple possible scenarios: A) Apple really is just threatening as you indicated, but not being blatantly direct about it. Possible, but not the only possibility, and not usually their style from what I’ve seen for something like this, but who knows. I feel if Apple really wanted to threaten, they’d make the threat explicit and say “after two weeks of non-compliance, we will terminate everything”. B) Apple is stalling making a decision over if SIWA will continue to be available to Epic’s users to ensure the SIWA team can support it when the dev account is deactivated. From other rumors where we hear folks saying SIWA team did have to make changes, I’m thinking this was the likely scenario. Don’t make a commitment to keep something going if you can’t deliver on it for sure yet, so “give them a two week extension” so you learn if you can actually keep SIWA up. If they can’t and Epic is still fighting with Fire, maybe you do terminate SIWA, but maybe not. Either way, Apple wins. C) Apple is stalling a decision to scare Epic into compliance after Epic’s users backlash over word it might end. Possible, but I think Epic had well shown they were ready to play the Russian roulette game with Apple down to the last chamber, so I’m thinking less likely than A/B. So if I was a betting man, I’d say it’s a mixed bag at best, but would likely go: B > A > C Apple doesn’t play checkers, they play chess. When they send a letter like that, they ensure there’s multiple positive outcomes for them for any potential scenario, from technical complications, to user perception, to legal proceedings, etc.

otterley 6y ago

> Having saw Epic's developer account terminated by Apple, I would definitely stay away from any "Sign in with Apple". If you don't renege on your agreements with Apple as part of a public pissing contest, and you aren't in the business of misleading customers and creating deceptive apps, it's unlikely they'll revoke your developer account.

Qahlel 6y ago
unilateral agreements that one side can change on a whim is not something that one would call a fair agreement in the first place.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  unilateral agreements that one side can change on a whim is not something that one would call a fair agreement in the first place. Wait till you read the fine print in your cell phone contract.
- olliej 6y ago
  Well, both companies do that - The various epic EULAs let them behave just as apple does, so they can't argue it's unfair unless they want all their existing EULAs to be invalidated as well.
- otterley 6y ago
  Do you really think a company the size of Apple is going to separately negotiate terms of service with every developer that wants to publish an app? Contracts of adhesion are just a part of life. We agree to them practically every day whenever we do business with a third party. And if you were in the other party's shoes, you'd do the same thing; otherwise you couldn't practically run a business.
Symbiote 6y ago
But we can still avoid Apple services in support of those Apple doesn't like, open standards and free competition.
yegle 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

krtkush 6y ago

> I would definitely stay away from any "Sign in with Apple". I would stay away from any "Sign in with.." service as a user and as a product owner. You're affectively giving away a major control of your users to a third party.

yegle 6y ago
I think "Sign in with Apple" is unique that Apple allows the users to hide their email address https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425 which makes it extremely hard to migrate away, unlike other federated login system where you can at least get users' email addresses, allowing you to create a proper email+password login later on.
- the_arun 6y ago
  I think it is very private. The third party app cannot sell the attached email address to others. But I agree if you sign up with the third party using your apple id, they will not know you which may end up in creating second account. If they don't have account linking feature, it will be messy.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    Apple announced an account linking feature as a requirement at WWDC this year.
- gowld 6y ago
  How is that? It's the developer's choice of they want to let me add a second login to the same account.
gremlinsinc 6y ago
so, if you're a service that posts memes to twitter, or facebook you should always use email and sms two factor, no 'sign in with facebook/twitter' links?
KMnO4 6y ago

tshaddox 6y ago

Even if you don’t like Apple’s actions in the whole Epic drama, one thing that’s clear from it is that Apple probably won’t terminate your developer account like this unless you beg them to as part of a major PR stunt.

thefounder 6y ago
>> Apple probably won’t terminate your developer account Or probably they will terminate it if they don't like your business
yegle 6y ago
But they can expand the prohibited uses clause in the future if they see fit. https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guidelines-for-websites-and-other-platforms/ https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guideli...
- parasubvert 6y ago
  Contracts can be changed based on pre-agreed terms, film at 11 At some point, people need to do business. Worrying about hypotheticals leads to paralysis.

mvanbaak 6y ago

you do know EPIC did break a lot of clauses in their contract, knowing what the impact of breaking these clauses was, and still breaking all those clauses?

ogre_codes 6y ago

As a user I would prefer no account in most cases. As a distant second, I would prefer the convenience, security, and privacy of Sign in with Apple over Google, Facebook, or the headache of managing yet another web account. As a developer, I use my preferences as a user to steer my choices, but recognize that the world doesn't revolve around Apple so would allow other options. > Having saw Epic's developer account t... Since I have zero need to deliberately violate Apple's App Story policy, I don't worry about this overmuch.

qppo 6y ago
I've had an issue with sign-in with Apple where using an autogenerated emails ruins certain support interactions. One of them was cancelling a subscription service that was eventually resolved (they required me to email their customer support, which I couldn't figure out how to do using the autogenerated email address created by "sign-in with Apple").
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  While it’s frustrating and worth pointing out of course - what really happened there was a bug in the service provider’s support process!
  - qppo 6y ago
    It was actually a dark pattern, not a bug.
- tchalla 6y ago
  It would be helpful if you could let us know how you managed to send that e-mail.
  - mr_toad 6y ago
    You can see the email that Apple generates: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210426 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210426

floatingatoll 6y ago

It's weird to see you using this example, given that Apple specifically went out of their way to continue operating Sign in with Apple for all of Epic's users. Can you talk more about why you would stay away from it when developing for Apple platforms?

madeofpalk 6y ago

For what it's worth, it's been said (by anonymous sources, no one on the record) that Apple did not threaten to terminate Epic's "Sign in with Apple" accounts/features, and they spent extra effort to maintain their access to that after their account was terminated. I do not know if other terminated accounts get this "luxury".

wlesieutre 6y ago
Epic did say it was going to be terminated, presumably as part of the overall account termination. They then updated that it would continue to work. https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-with-apple-will-keep-working-fortnite https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-wit... Apple commented they weren’t doing anything to stop Sign In with Apple working, but I have to wonder if there’s a lie of omission in there. Like “We aren’t doing anything deliberate to stop it, but it’s going to stop as a side effect of terminating their developer account.” Either that or Epic was lying outright.
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  unnamed sources have said that Epic was outright lying https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unreliable-narrator https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unre... > multiple sources at Apple told me Epic’s claims were simply false. There was never a September 11 deadline for their SIWA support to stop working, and in fact, Apple’s SIWA team performed work to make sure SIWA continued working for Fortnite users despite the fact that Epic Games’s developer account had been revoked.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    So the other question, is this a standard behavior, or a special circumstance because of Epic's high profile? Or more to the point, if Apple terminates your developer account, do you think Apple's SIWA team will "perform work to make sure SIWA continues working" for your users? If work is actually required, I'm not optimistic.
  - 6y ago

snowwrestler 6y ago

It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. That said, it's generally true that any dependence on a platform is a form of risk. There are documented examples of Google kicking people out of their ecosystem unexpectedly too. Federated sign-in schemes may be a good idea if they help your users create accounts and authenticate more easily, but it certainly seems smart to offer more than one, including your own email-based option.

arcticbull 6y ago
Apple isn't perfect, and yeah, you might run into a situation where you have to sue. Them taking away the ability for half your users two sign in to your app while your dispute makes its way through the courts is seriously problematic.
- jen729w 6y ago
  I don’t think it’s ever been shown that Apple did this at all, let alone maliciously. If anyone has a source to the contrary, we need it here please. And I mean a documented source, not hearsay. Edit: there’s discussion below.
ROARosen 6y ago
>It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. Nevertheless, the suspension still clearly highlights the fealty you are expected to give to Apple being a dev on their platform, or else.
- tomc1985 6y ago
  And neither is Epic the first nor last of the kind of people who want to pick this fight with Apple, even if they can't
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

beached_whale 6y ago

Epic asked them to terminate the account though.

danudey 6y ago

Note that Epic claimed that "Sign in with Apple" was going to get terminated, but Apple says that wasn't true: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-with-apple-will-keep-working-fortnite https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431396/epic-sign-in-wit... And IIRC it all still works anyway, so this sounds like Epic either being confused about itself or lying to make Apple look like the bad guy (more). And bear in mind that anyone using any third-party auth (like Twitter, Facebook or Google OAuth) could have their developer accounts terminated for violating the rules, same as Apple. I guess the key takeaway here is "if you're relying on someone else's services, don't flagrantly disregard the service's rules publicly in order to start a lawsuit and then try the case in the court of public opinion", but I think that's good advice for any service.

dirtae 6y ago
Apple's claim is false: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...

supah 6y ago

Except the 2FA is kinda stupid. I have devices logged into my iCloud account at a datacenter, that end up getting my 2FA for my other devices. I have a iPhone, iPad, Macbook, do you think any device I actually use all the time gets the 2FA code ? Sometimes, the same computer i’m using to login gets the code which is kinda pointless. I have to always use SMS to get my code because of this.

xodice 6y ago
Every single device on your iCloud account gets the 2FA prompt. You then choose which device you want to confirm the request on. The prompt does not go to just a single device, but every single device on said iCloud account.

benlivengood 6y ago

Why don't sites start supporting multiple federated identities? It shouldn't be too hard to keep the "sign in with X" links on the account settings page, right?

guptaneil 6y ago

While there's always a risk anytime you build on top of someone else's platform, it's worth noting that it looks like Epic lied[0] about getting blocked from Sign in with Apple. There's no evidence they were going to lose access to it, even with a terminated developer account. 0: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unreliable-narrator https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unre...

dirtae 6y ago
False. https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...
- guptaneil 6y ago
  Ahh thanks for sharing that. That’s good to know. Super disappointed Gruber didn’t update his post with that information, especially given his recent campaign against editorial integrity.

dbt00 6y ago

Note that Epic claims Apple was going to disable "sign in with Apple", but Apple did not do so and has claimed through unattributed press quotes that they were never going to do so, that Epic made that up.

dirtae 6y ago
Apple's claim is false, and can be shown to be false via documents in the court filing: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1311345253576830978 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/131134525357683097...

jbverschoor 6y ago

Yeah same for me. I was super happy with sign in with apple as a concept, but I have exactly 1 account with them. After the epic account-hijacking, no thank you. I will never ever use it again.

davweb 6y ago

Sign in with Apple still works for Fortnite. [1] According to Epic, Apple said they were going to turn it off and then changed their minds. Apple's position is they were never going to turn off Sign in with Apple for Epic. [1]: https://twitter.com/FortniteStatus/status/1304161432888643584 https://twitter.com/FortniteStatus/status/130416143288864358...