11 ms·

The pandemic is the match, but I’m going to blame the pile of kerosene soaked rags.

fit2rule 6y ago
Decency and human rights were lit on fire with every bomb dropped from a US drone since 2003. It is laughable to blame the pandemic on the worlds dismal human rights scene. Before covid was even a speck in a bats eye, human rights and decency were in the mud. Just ask the Libyan people. Or the Yemeni. Or Iraqi's.
varjag 6y ago
Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.
- samoa42 6y ago
  those seem to be a minority thou
  - scotth 6y ago
    Seems like USA and UK fucking it up. Who else?
    - mschuster91 6y ago
      Brazil and Turkey come to my mind.
      - pelasaco 6y ago
        why Brazil? The Democracy there works fine. There was a change in the power, which brought new dynamics to the Country, but IMO their democracy are eroding much less than in US, France and Germany Disclaimer: I'm German/Brazilian who lived 10 years in US.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        That must be a joke. Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"
        pelasaco 6y ago
        > Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally > wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro Please, add reference for that. The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.
        notreallytrue 6y ago
        So you don't know about his endorsement for #SomosTodosBolsonaro and the "fuck you day" and that "in an April rally also attended by Bolsonaro, demonstrators called on Sunday for the closing of the Supreme Court and Congress, and a return to authoritarian measures used during Brazil’s 1964-1985 military government"? You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964 coup which brought the military to power."? You don't know about his interference with justice and when Moro presented testimony about it Bolsonaro tweeted that he was "a traitor, a Juda"? You don't know that "As Bolsonaro’s relationship with legislators and the courts has cooled, he has become increasingly dependent on a cadre of advisers in his government who are active or former military"? You don't know that in a Facebook live he said “We have the armed forces at the people’s side: the side of order, democracy, liberty,”? You really don't know any of this? Tell me. if you can, when in France or Germany the President attended a far right rally where they hoped to return to the nazi period...
        pelasaco 6y ago
        As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.
    - scottlocklin 6y ago
      The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't think the US, Brazil, UK or Turkey explicitly realized this or anything (Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it). But ultimately getting it over with is probably going to look better in the long term.
      - Hokusai 6y ago
        > they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago. Gaining time has a lot of value. > Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". Sweden has had mixed results because has applied non-strong measures. Most companies are working remotely and there are strong safety nets for people to stay home if they feel sick. Even with that, it has been far from perfect, and it is far from over.
        Kiro 6y ago
        > And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". How is that relevant? Say "5500 people died" if you want to make a real point.
- neither_color 6y ago
  I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective survivorship bias. There are several cases of countries next to each other with no particular great early response having vastly different outcomes. Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada, etc. It's too early to gloat and take digs at the US. Were all countries at equal risk of exposure, or were the US, Italy, and other more severely affected countries already major travel hubs for people coming from early affected regions? Some countries have turned "flatten the curve" into "nobody should ever get a fever again" and have gone to great lengths to make that happen but I doubt the temporary security is worth the "emergency powers" theyve given their leaders.
  - nradov 6y ago
    The null hypothesis is that the differences between countries so far are more due to luck and timing than rationality and education. If that's correct then over the long run infection rates will roughly even out between most countries.
    - Retric 6y ago
      It’s unlike for all countries to have equivalent transmission rates by default. Further, countries with younger populations (specifically vs 75+) would have fewer death even if their adage adjusted mortality rates are identical. Italy has a much larger percentage of population over 80 than the rest of Europe due to climate, migration patterns, and WWII. Compare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Sex_By_Age_1933.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#/media/File:Italypop.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#/media/F...
      - 6y ago
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"? More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?
  - varjag 6y ago
    > You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. I am in Norway, taking my flight north of the country today in 4 hours. It's my 5th domestic flight since May, when the country reopened after 6 week long, early, popularly supported, voluntarily enforced lock down. > More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI …aaand?
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    5km rules are in Victoria, yes. The west coast is enjoying the benefits of its natural isolation and I don't hear a lot of complaints from other states. Locking down hotspots seems rational enough. How else do you control an invisible virus? What alternative do you really advocate for that is effective?
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    > You literally can't go 5km from your house I live in Rome, near the Colosseum, I never travel 5km from home, unless I have to. Being stuck in the traffic jam in your car is not a nice experience. EDIT: maybe I should add as a disclaimer that the post tone wasn't obvious. it came out bad. My fault. As someone else said after me, lockdown in Italy meant "stay home, don't leave your neighborhood" I couldn't even go to visit my parents that live 4 kms away. So if in Australia 5kms look bad, what would they think about staying confined in your homes to live and work, while also trying to keep your kids happy and motivated, because schools are closed?
    - inops 6y ago
      Good for you that that policy wouldn't affect you. That's not the case for a lot of people with the infringement on their freedom of movement.
- mrkramer 6y ago
  I'm not sure how Hitler winning 1932 German elections improved human rights in Germany and overall Europe. Instead it turned into dictatorship, tyranny and mass murder. And you can not say that Germany at the time was not rational and not educated populace. It was a Physics mecca of the world with people like Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger and Albert Einstein. My point is education does not equal to rationality, and democracy is not good but it is the best system we had so far.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    World War II has been over for a while and Germany has a scientist as the leader of the country. Human rights in Germany improved as a result of WWII because Germany - unlike any other country - has seen first hand what will happen when you let human rights slide.
    - mrkramer 6y ago
      I was referring to the guy who said "Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights." My conclusion was that education does not equal to rationality with regards to human rights and that democracy is not good but it is the best system we had so far.
      - jacquesm 6y ago
        Sure. But China, arguably not much of a democracy did just fine. So the whole link between the pandemic and political systems is mostly nonsense, the countries where the impact is least are simply the ones that reacted fastest and most decisive. Everybody else is playing catch-up and they may have to substantially pause their 'freedoms' and 'democratic rights' to get through to the other side. This is a simple result of early incompetence and refusal to assign sufficient gravity to the situation.
        mrkramer 6y ago
        So you believe in information that Chinese communist party is providing. A totalitarian regime with mass violation of human rights?! I love China and Chinese people but people suffer a lot under the rule of CCP. They are faking their financial data and they are faking their COVID data as well.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  I think it is a bit early to make that call.
- Siira 6y ago
  A lot of them might just be better liars; E.g., here in Iran the gov has managed quite a good marketing, but the reality on the ground makes it clear that the hospitals have been severely out of capacity, and infection is very widespread. Still most people are so stupid that they trust official stats to be order-of-magnitude accurate (my guess is the official stat is logarithmic) and think our situation is better than, e.g., the USA.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > E.g., here in Iran the gov has managed quite a good marketing I think most of the countries claiming to have controlled the virus actually have controlled the virus.

Decency and human rights were lit on fire with every bomb dropped from a US drone since 2003. It is laughable to blame the pandemic on the worlds dismal human rights scene. Before covid was even a speck in a bats eye, human rights and decency were in the mud. Just ask the Libyan people. Or the Yemeni. Or Iraqi's.

varjag 6y ago

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

samoa42 6y ago
those seem to be a minority thou
- scotth 6y ago
  Seems like USA and UK fucking it up. Who else?
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    Brazil and Turkey come to my mind.
    - pelasaco 6y ago
      why Brazil? The Democracy there works fine. There was a change in the power, which brought new dynamics to the Country, but IMO their democracy are eroding much less than in US, France and Germany Disclaimer: I'm German/Brazilian who lived 10 years in US.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        That must be a joke. Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"
        pelasaco 6y ago
        > Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally > wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro Please, add reference for that. The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.
        notreallytrue 6y ago
        So you don't know about his endorsement for #SomosTodosBolsonaro and the "fuck you day" and that "in an April rally also attended by Bolsonaro, demonstrators called on Sunday for the closing of the Supreme Court and Congress, and a return to authoritarian measures used during Brazil’s 1964-1985 military government"? You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964 coup which brought the military to power."? You don't know about his interference with justice and when Moro presented testimony about it Bolsonaro tweeted that he was "a traitor, a Juda"? You don't know that "As Bolsonaro’s relationship with legislators and the courts has cooled, he has become increasingly dependent on a cadre of advisers in his government who are active or former military"? You don't know that in a Facebook live he said “We have the armed forces at the people’s side: the side of order, democracy, liberty,”? You really don't know any of this? Tell me. if you can, when in France or Germany the President attended a far right rally where they hoped to return to the nazi period...
        pelasaco 6y ago
        As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't think the US, Brazil, UK or Turkey explicitly realized this or anything (Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it). But ultimately getting it over with is probably going to look better in the long term.
    - Hokusai 6y ago
      > they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago. Gaining time has a lot of value. > Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". Sweden has had mixed results because has applied non-strong measures. Most companies are working remotely and there are strong safety nets for people to stay home if they feel sick. Even with that, it has been far from perfect, and it is far from over.
      - Kiro 6y ago
        > And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". How is that relevant? Say "5500 people died" if you want to make a real point.
neither_color 6y ago
I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective survivorship bias. There are several cases of countries next to each other with no particular great early response having vastly different outcomes. Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada, etc. It's too early to gloat and take digs at the US. Were all countries at equal risk of exposure, or were the US, Italy, and other more severely affected countries already major travel hubs for people coming from early affected regions? Some countries have turned "flatten the curve" into "nobody should ever get a fever again" and have gone to great lengths to make that happen but I doubt the temporary security is worth the "emergency powers" theyve given their leaders.
- nradov 6y ago
  The null hypothesis is that the differences between countries so far are more due to luck and timing than rationality and education. If that's correct then over the long run infection rates will roughly even out between most countries.
  - Retric 6y ago
    It’s unlike for all countries to have equivalent transmission rates by default. Further, countries with younger populations (specifically vs 75+) would have fewer death even if their adage adjusted mortality rates are identical. Italy has a much larger percentage of population over 80 than the rest of Europe due to climate, migration patterns, and WWII. Compare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Sex_By_Age_1933.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#/media/File:Italypop.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#/media/F...
    - 6y ago
DarthGhandi 6y ago
You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"? More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?
- varjag 6y ago
  > You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. I am in Norway, taking my flight north of the country today in 4 hours. It's my 5th domestic flight since May, when the country reopened after 6 week long, early, popularly supported, voluntarily enforced lock down. > More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI …aaand?
- friendlybus 6y ago
  5km rules are in Victoria, yes. The west coast is enjoying the benefits of its natural isolation and I don't hear a lot of complaints from other states. Locking down hotspots seems rational enough. How else do you control an invisible virus? What alternative do you really advocate for that is effective?
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  > You literally can't go 5km from your house I live in Rome, near the Colosseum, I never travel 5km from home, unless I have to. Being stuck in the traffic jam in your car is not a nice experience. EDIT: maybe I should add as a disclaimer that the post tone wasn't obvious. it came out bad. My fault. As someone else said after me, lockdown in Italy meant "stay home, don't leave your neighborhood" I couldn't even go to visit my parents that live 4 kms away. So if in Australia 5kms look bad, what would they think about staying confined in your homes to live and work, while also trying to keep your kids happy and motivated, because schools are closed?
  - inops 6y ago
    Good for you that that policy wouldn't affect you. That's not the case for a lot of people with the infringement on their freedom of movement.
mrkramer 6y ago
I'm not sure how Hitler winning 1932 German elections improved human rights in Germany and overall Europe. Instead it turned into dictatorship, tyranny and mass murder. And you can not say that Germany at the time was not rational and not educated populace. It was a Physics mecca of the world with people like Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger and Albert Einstein. My point is education does not equal to rationality, and democracy is not good but it is the best system we had so far.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  World War II has been over for a while and Germany has a scientist as the leader of the country. Human rights in Germany improved as a result of WWII because Germany - unlike any other country - has seen first hand what will happen when you let human rights slide.
  - mrkramer 6y ago
    I was referring to the guy who said "Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights." My conclusion was that education does not equal to rationality with regards to human rights and that democracy is not good but it is the best system we had so far.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Sure. But China, arguably not much of a democracy did just fine. So the whole link between the pandemic and political systems is mostly nonsense, the countries where the impact is least are simply the ones that reacted fastest and most decisive. Everybody else is playing catch-up and they may have to substantially pause their 'freedoms' and 'democratic rights' to get through to the other side. This is a simple result of early incompetence and refusal to assign sufficient gravity to the situation.
      - mrkramer 6y ago
        So you believe in information that Chinese communist party is providing. A totalitarian regime with mass violation of human rights?! I love China and Chinese people but people suffer a lot under the rule of CCP. They are faking their financial data and they are faking their COVID data as well.
jacquesm 6y ago
I think it is a bit early to make that call.
Siira 6y ago
A lot of them might just be better liars; E.g., here in Iran the gov has managed quite a good marketing, but the reality on the ground makes it clear that the hospitals have been severely out of capacity, and infection is very widespread. Still most people are so stupid that they trust official stats to be order-of-magnitude accurate (my guess is the official stat is logarithmic) and think our situation is better than, e.g., the USA.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > E.g., here in Iran the gov has managed quite a good marketing I think most of the countries claiming to have controlled the virus actually have controlled the virus.