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This sounds like a terrible move and will probably force all medium-size organizations I work with to ditch Atlassian. We have the technical know-how to admini

This sounds like a terrible move and will probably force all medium-size organizations I work with to ditch Atlassian. We have the technical know-how to administer data center versions of their products, but we can’t do shit if they force potential customers to pay for a minimum of 40 000 USD for a license per product. Many of these orgs have multiple Atlassian products so this will probably end up doubling costs on several products at the same time effectively making it a money sink and impossible to justify to their budgeting. I would have been perfectly OK with DC taking over server with similar pricing, but this is just a monumentally idiotic greed-driven move. Now small-medium-large organizations are either forced to pay A LOT of money for self-hosting their highly protected data or either use their cloud. The latter is out of question for almost all of the organisations I know. If I was a Microsoft or another enterprise tech company I’d hire a thousand engineers tomorrow to develop a Jira/Confluence competitor before the grace period for server licenses ends. All that engineering money will pay itself back whent they can sell modern collab tools without tech debt from 15 years ago for a price we can tolerate.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> If I was a Microsoft or another enterprise tech company I’d hire a thousand engineers tomorrow to develop a Jira/Confluence competitor before the grace period for server licenses ends. Azure DevOps Server, née Visual Studio Team System, already exists.
- tootie 6y ago
  TFS is the self-hosted predecessor to Azure DevOps and it absolutely sucks compared to JIRA.
  - AlphaSite 6y ago
    How can you be worse than JIRA? Thats almost impressive.
    - actuator 6y ago
      What's wrong with JIRA? If it is about the usage of it within some orgs, I don't know if it is the tool or culture. I have seen some people fawning over tools like Asana but in my usage I just found it fancier and slower than Jira. Personally, as a developer I find GitHub issues to be good enough.
      - pfranz 6y ago
        I feel like I've had two experiences with it. Probably 10 years ago I was at a medium sized facility and we migrated 10 different ticketing systems to Jira hosted on-site. It was a little awkward, not quite lightweight, but served all the needs and it was amazing to move tickets between departments while maintaining history and the customization of presentation and fields. Confluence was a much nicer wiki system compared to others at the time and it was nice to integrate Jira/Confluence. Search and Filters are something many other systems suck that for both wiki and ticketing. I left that job and for awhile working at places using different ticketing systems, hearing complaints on places like HN about Jira, and wishing for features those other systems were missing. A few years ago I started at a place that used the cloud hosted Jira at a much smaller company (with an enthusiastic lead who likely tweaked the setup himself). It was a much, much worse experience. It was horribly slow and I guess they had focused on "management" features that made a normal ticket process annoying and confusing (it may have been how it was configured). Reading around I think the horrible performance was because of scaling architecture decisions that Atlassian made, which I heard they've at least acknowledged and are addressing. I gasped when I saw this headline they plan to drop local hosting before getting cloud performance issues behind them.
      - tootie 6y ago
        Man Asana is a real mystery. It has fewer features and worse UX than JIRA. I constantly have trouble clicking on the right thing or having some auto action just do something unexpected. It's coasting on having a nice stylesheet.
    - minot 6y ago
      My understanding of Jira is that it by itself does not suck but it bends over backwards for asinine “business processes” so it is difficult to find an implementation in the wild that does not suck.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    This disagrees with my experience in both systems, especially if you’re using TFS for your build system, too and Visual Studio for programming. TFS was far better.
  - hanoz 6y ago
    >"absolutely sucks compared to JIRA" Congratulations, according to Google you are the first person on the internet ever to use that phrase. Indeed only the second ever to string the last four of those words together.
    - sushshshsh 6y ago
      "better than jira" returns 6210 results, too :)
    - p2detar 6y ago
      Let me be the second person then. Jira is way ahead of TFS and I worked extensively with TFS in my last job. That could just be me though.
    - tootie 6y ago
      This quote from Bjarne Stroustroup is very relevant: > There are two kinds of programming languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses. JIRA is the C++ of project management software. It works. It has worked forever. It is easy to shoot yourself in the foot but a savvy operator can't be beat. It's unwieldy at first but gives you all the power to build a really sophisticated and efficient process.
- dstaley 6y ago
  If I was going to switch anyway, I wouldn't switch to Azure DevOps Server, I'd switch to GitHub Enterprise. I don't think there's much of a future for Azure DevOps.
  - pc86 6y ago
    > I don't think there's much of a future for Azure DevOps. This is just... wow. Every Microsoft shop I've ever worked at defaults to Azure. You need a really good reason to use GCP or AWS for anything, and it's an uphill battle. They're already paying licensing fees to Microsoft, there are incentives and discounts to stay within the ecosystem. My current employer has GitHub Enterprise and we still use DevOps for a lot of stuff, especially anything that business stakeholders have to touch.
    - throwaways885 6y ago
      I think GP is more referring to the fact that GitHub Actions et al are a better reimplementation of Azure DevOps. I suspect Azure DevOps will be deprecated in favour of GitHub.
      - wokwokwok 6y ago
        This shouldn’t be downvoted, I’m certain it’s true. If you talk to a Microsoft rep, they “recommend github enterprise for new projects”. Microsoft obviously cares about backwards compatibility, and there is no way to currently migrate your stuff. So... it’s not going to happen tomorrow, but it is going to happen. ...and no, it doesn’t have the nice clickops UI from devops: but that’s legacy now in favour of the multistage yaml pipelines. You can close your eyes and cross your fingers and say Azure Devops will Be around forever... but, you’d be wrong.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Every Microsoft shop I've ever worked at defaults to Azure. You need a really good reason to use GCP or AWS for anything, and it's an uphill battle (1) Github Enterprise, the alternative suggested, is a Microsoft product (Github is Microsoft), not GCP or AWS. Given the way Microsoft seems to be investing and promoting products, seeing Github Enterprise as having more legs than Azure DevOps is completely reasonable. (And I'm the one who introduced Azure DevOps into the discussion.) (2) I work for what has historically been an enterprise Microsoft shop; our cloud transition, except for some use of Github and Azure AD, been primarily AWS-based.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  One of my customers uses Azure DevOps Server, self hosted. And it's missing a lot of features that the cloud version offers. I think this is on purpose to push people to the clould offering.
giancarlostoro 6y ago
In our case we're ditching our office and that probably means we'll be using the Atlassian cloud instance (since I imagine our server racks will be scrapped eventually), which might be a trend they're seeing altogether.
Qerub 6y ago
> If I was a Microsoft or another enterprise tech company I’d hire a thousand engineers tomorrow to develop a Jira/Confluence competitor before the grace period for server licenses ends. Microsoft already has GitHub that works fine as a Jira/Confluence substitute for technical people. Maybe this will be their call to make it more accessable.
- names_are_hard 6y ago
  Microsoft also has Azure Devops, which essentially competes with Jira + Teamcity in one. Confluence is covered by either Azure Devops wikis or SharePoint.
- orthoxerox 6y ago
  > Microsoft already has GitHub that works fine as a Jira/Confluence substitute for technical people. But if you want to replace Confluence as the knowledge base for the business people, there's Sharepoint, which is better than massaging your genitals with broken glass, but not by much.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
papaf 6y ago
This sounds like a terrible move and will probably force all medium-size organizations I work with to ditch Atlassian. Me too. How awesome is that! Its absolutely fantastic news. Edit: This is great for those of us that have to suffer Atlassian products that we didn't choose. It is also good news for companies such as Gitlab that do offer self-hosted solutions.
- tupputuppu 6y ago
  And what on-premise substitute do you think will be superior? Asking seriously.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    I have no answer to that, but if one is forced to go off of on-prem Jira and go into the cloud, it may not follow that people will go to in-cloud Jira. Once an organization is forced to do work, it may be the opportunity re-evaluate things and find something "better" (local or in-cloud) instead of just renewing annually due to inertial.
hirako2000 6y ago
https://github.com/oldboyxx/jira_clone https://github.com/oldboyxx/jira_clone
matthewmuscat 6y ago
Our org uses both Jira Server & Confluence Server - and I’m fairly sure this will make us move away from Atlassian’s products The split between cloud and server offerings is partly to blame here My thoughts go out to the businesses that have built plugins for Jira and had to endure the variances between cloud and server, or worse, only catered for the server market. The group at tempo timesheets[1] particularly come to mind here Thinking ahead - I’m hoping that an org like GitLab (who have got their Saas v On-Prem offerings balance right) is able to keep building on and catering for this space. Their planning features are not there yet, but there’s a great group of people with oodles of traction and a roadmap that aligns with this problem space[2]. [1] www.tempo.up [2] https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan
- jeff_redradish 6y ago
  Yes, there still is no easy way to migrate Tempo data from Server to Cloud. Their advice is "there's an API - good luck" [1]. Gitlab is great for their developer niche, but the relatively weak issue tracker and wiki lets them down for more general use. Still, Gitlab is a great company with momentum and a roadmap. Feel free to join us [2] in looking at such alternatives. [1] https://tempo-io.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/THC/pages/896958474/Migrating+Tempo+from+Jira+Server+to+Jira+Cloud https://tempo-io.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/THC/pages/8969584... [2] https://www.goodbyeserver.org https://www.goodbyeserver.org
  - dnsmichi 6y ago
    Hi, Developer Evangelist at GitLab here. "Relatively weak issue tracker and wiki" got me interested - mind elaborating in more detail what brings you to this conclusion? :) Thanks!
    - ojosilva 6y ago
      Please stop doing this. Fishing for product insight on such broad opinions in an open forum does a disservice for Gitlab the product and the team. If it was a natural question... But this is so canned, every gitlab employee here does it, sounds flaky and impersonal. Almost troll-like, maybe even arrogant tbh. You really don't know why Gitlab is not an issue tracker like Jira is? I'm sure you do, or at least you should know. Being an issue tracker like Jira is not even a bad thing! So why try to look like you think you can be as bad as Jira? /rant (from a Gitlab fan)
matthewmuscat 6y ago
Our org uses both Jira Server & Confluence Server - and I’m fairly sure this will make us move away from Atlassian’s products. The split between cloud and server offerings is partly to blame here. My thoughts go out to the businesses that have built plugins for Jira and had to endure the variances between cloud and server, or worse, only catered for the server market. The group at tempo timesheets[1] particularly come to mind here. Thinking ahead - I’m hoping that an org like GitLab (who have got their Saas v On-Prem offerings balance right) is able to keep building on and catering for this space. Their planning features are not there yet, but there’s a great group of people with oodles of traction and a roadmap that aligns with this problem space[2]. [1] https://www.tempo.io https://www.tempo.io [2] https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  > I’m hoping that an org like GitLab is able to keep building on and catering for this space. That's not really an option for organizations whose main product isn't code, no?
  - sytse 6y ago
    We (GitLab) have strong planning features but are missing workflow enforcement. GitLab also has a wiki but it is less user friendly than Confluence.
    - Roritharr 6y ago
      What we mainly need is cheap/free non-coding users. I'm really not comfortable paying for a gitlab seat per support staff we hire.
      - dnsmichi 6y ago
        Thanks for the thought, I have forwarded it into an issue discussing a similar topic on issue management for specific groups not counting towards the license limit: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/2105#note_432679575 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/2105#note_4326...
ozim 6y ago
Microsoft is doing the same with Azure DevOps and big orgs with sensitive data are moving there as well. I don't think you can even have Azure DevOps on premise. So Atlassian is doing it because they know there is no competitor that would jump in. Because everyone else also goes that direction.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > I don't think you can even have Azure DevOps on premise. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/devops/server/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/devops/server/ “Previously known as Team Foundation Server (TFS), Azure DevOps Server is a set of collaborative software development tools, hosted on-premises.”
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > So Atlassian is doing it because they know there is no competitor that would jump in. Because everyone else also goes that direction. New Confluence licenses will no longer be available in 2021 and support ends in 2024 (though it seems the Data Centre version will still be available, but it's expensive). That's potentially 3-4 years lead time to get something going. Either totally on-prem or an either-or option (à lab GitLab).
thu2111 6y ago
It already exists. JetBrains YouTrack has an on-site version with similar features to Jira, and the latest version comes with a wiki feature called Knowledge Base. [1] There's also an automatic import process from Jira [2]. YouTrack has a cloud version now. Unfortunately they used the introduction of this to raise the prices for their self-hosted version. However they do allow migration both to and from the cloud version, and they plan to introduce a self-hosted version of their newest Space product, so it seems JetBrains is more DIY friendly than Atlassian. JB seem like a better company anyway. It's hard to forget Atlassian's decision to stop rewarding employees based on merit, a system they claimed was created by "white men" [3]. The new system rewards employees largely for following the "company values". Under the company values page [4], they claim one of their values is "Don’t #@!% the customer". Interesting way to show it. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/Getting-Started-With-YouTrack.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/Getting-S... [2] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/importing-from-jira.html#jira-integration-prerequisites https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/importing... [3] https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/atlassian-ditches-brilliant-jerks-in-performance-review-overhaul/news-story/82a5e2abba1939f51d68ae81db8f05bd https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/atlassian-ditch... [4] https://www.atlassian.com/company/values https://www.atlassian.com/company/values
m463 6y ago
I agree. this is a jump-the-shark move. I've worked with confluence and jira and they are not as good as other products - but we can put any kind of confidential data in them. Everybody likes sharepoint/google docs/slack way better.
- wj 6y ago
  I feel like SharePoint and Google Docs are fundamentally different products that Confluence. Looking for a Confluence competitor with permissions, version tracking, templates, and search but don't feel like I have found a good alternative.
  - m463 6y ago
    I don't think we use version tracking, templates are not really used (but they should be!) and search could be better. We basically use confluence like a wiki, but it's abnormally hard to put info into it.
    - RikNieu 6y ago
      Hard in what way?
      - m463 6y ago
        by spending a lot of time in the confluence editor doing things the confluence way.
        RikNieu 6y ago
        Yeah, it can definitely feel like a time-suck sometimes. What "confluence way" things would you do differently? And how?
  - aisidun 6y ago
    XWiki is the closest thing I've found to Confluence.
- 6y ago
syshum 6y ago
Microsoft is busy also pretending OnPrem does not exist, They cancelled all of the OnPrem cert programs, and everything is "Cloud First", with Onprem products being treated as second class with price increases to push people to subscriptions
otabdeveloper4 6y ago
Not just "medium-sized". We're really larger than "medium-sized", but we're not the kind of company that can or will force everyone to use Jira. Jira adoption could have happened, but it would only have been possible in a bottom-up, team-by-team basis. And certainly not with a $40000 starting price tag. As it is, yeah, we're planning on migrating off Jira now.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> If I was a Microsoft or another enterprise tech company I’d hire a thousand engineers tomorrow to develop a Jira/Confluence competitor before the grace period for server licenses ends. Azure DevOps Server, née Visual Studio Team System, already exists.

tootie 6y ago
TFS is the self-hosted predecessor to Azure DevOps and it absolutely sucks compared to JIRA.
- AlphaSite 6y ago
  How can you be worse than JIRA? Thats almost impressive.
  - actuator 6y ago
    What's wrong with JIRA? If it is about the usage of it within some orgs, I don't know if it is the tool or culture. I have seen some people fawning over tools like Asana but in my usage I just found it fancier and slower than Jira. Personally, as a developer I find GitHub issues to be good enough.
    - pfranz 6y ago
      I feel like I've had two experiences with it. Probably 10 years ago I was at a medium sized facility and we migrated 10 different ticketing systems to Jira hosted on-site. It was a little awkward, not quite lightweight, but served all the needs and it was amazing to move tickets between departments while maintaining history and the customization of presentation and fields. Confluence was a much nicer wiki system compared to others at the time and it was nice to integrate Jira/Confluence. Search and Filters are something many other systems suck that for both wiki and ticketing. I left that job and for awhile working at places using different ticketing systems, hearing complaints on places like HN about Jira, and wishing for features those other systems were missing. A few years ago I started at a place that used the cloud hosted Jira at a much smaller company (with an enthusiastic lead who likely tweaked the setup himself). It was a much, much worse experience. It was horribly slow and I guess they had focused on "management" features that made a normal ticket process annoying and confusing (it may have been how it was configured). Reading around I think the horrible performance was because of scaling architecture decisions that Atlassian made, which I heard they've at least acknowledged and are addressing. I gasped when I saw this headline they plan to drop local hosting before getting cloud performance issues behind them.
    - tootie 6y ago
      Man Asana is a real mystery. It has fewer features and worse UX than JIRA. I constantly have trouble clicking on the right thing or having some auto action just do something unexpected. It's coasting on having a nice stylesheet.
  - minot 6y ago
    My understanding of Jira is that it by itself does not suck but it bends over backwards for asinine “business processes” so it is difficult to find an implementation in the wild that does not suck.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  This disagrees with my experience in both systems, especially if you’re using TFS for your build system, too and Visual Studio for programming. TFS was far better.
- hanoz 6y ago
  >"absolutely sucks compared to JIRA" Congratulations, according to Google you are the first person on the internet ever to use that phrase. Indeed only the second ever to string the last four of those words together.
  - sushshshsh 6y ago
    "better than jira" returns 6210 results, too :)
  - p2detar 6y ago
    Let me be the second person then. Jira is way ahead of TFS and I worked extensively with TFS in my last job. That could just be me though.
  - tootie 6y ago
    This quote from Bjarne Stroustroup is very relevant: > There are two kinds of programming languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses. JIRA is the C++ of project management software. It works. It has worked forever. It is easy to shoot yourself in the foot but a savvy operator can't be beat. It's unwieldy at first but gives you all the power to build a really sophisticated and efficient process.
dstaley 6y ago
If I was going to switch anyway, I wouldn't switch to Azure DevOps Server, I'd switch to GitHub Enterprise. I don't think there's much of a future for Azure DevOps.
- pc86 6y ago
  > I don't think there's much of a future for Azure DevOps. This is just... wow. Every Microsoft shop I've ever worked at defaults to Azure. You need a really good reason to use GCP or AWS for anything, and it's an uphill battle. They're already paying licensing fees to Microsoft, there are incentives and discounts to stay within the ecosystem. My current employer has GitHub Enterprise and we still use DevOps for a lot of stuff, especially anything that business stakeholders have to touch.
  - throwaways885 6y ago
    I think GP is more referring to the fact that GitHub Actions et al are a better reimplementation of Azure DevOps. I suspect Azure DevOps will be deprecated in favour of GitHub.
    - wokwokwok 6y ago
      This shouldn’t be downvoted, I’m certain it’s true. If you talk to a Microsoft rep, they “recommend github enterprise for new projects”. Microsoft obviously cares about backwards compatibility, and there is no way to currently migrate your stuff. So... it’s not going to happen tomorrow, but it is going to happen. ...and no, it doesn’t have the nice clickops UI from devops: but that’s legacy now in favour of the multistage yaml pipelines. You can close your eyes and cross your fingers and say Azure Devops will Be around forever... but, you’d be wrong.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Every Microsoft shop I've ever worked at defaults to Azure. You need a really good reason to use GCP or AWS for anything, and it's an uphill battle (1) Github Enterprise, the alternative suggested, is a Microsoft product (Github is Microsoft), not GCP or AWS. Given the way Microsoft seems to be investing and promoting products, seeing Github Enterprise as having more legs than Azure DevOps is completely reasonable. (And I'm the one who introduced Azure DevOps into the discussion.) (2) I work for what has historically been an enterprise Microsoft shop; our cloud transition, except for some use of Github and Azure AD, been primarily AWS-based.
koonsolo 6y ago
One of my customers uses Azure DevOps Server, self hosted. And it's missing a lot of features that the cloud version offers. I think this is on purpose to push people to the clould offering.

giancarlostoro 6y ago

In our case we're ditching our office and that probably means we'll be using the Atlassian cloud instance (since I imagine our server racks will be scrapped eventually), which might be a trend they're seeing altogether.

Qerub 6y ago

> If I was a Microsoft or another enterprise tech company I’d hire a thousand engineers tomorrow to develop a Jira/Confluence competitor before the grace period for server licenses ends. Microsoft already has GitHub that works fine as a Jira/Confluence substitute for technical people. Maybe this will be their call to make it more accessable.

names_are_hard 6y ago
Microsoft also has Azure Devops, which essentially competes with Jira + Teamcity in one. Confluence is covered by either Azure Devops wikis or SharePoint.
orthoxerox 6y ago
> Microsoft already has GitHub that works fine as a Jira/Confluence substitute for technical people. But if you want to replace Confluence as the knowledge base for the business people, there's Sharepoint, which is better than massaging your genitals with broken glass, but not by much.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

papaf 6y ago

This sounds like a terrible move and will probably force all medium-size organizations I work with to ditch Atlassian. Me too. How awesome is that! Its absolutely fantastic news. Edit: This is great for those of us that have to suffer Atlassian products that we didn't choose. It is also good news for companies such as Gitlab that do offer self-hosted solutions.

tupputuppu 6y ago
And what on-premise substitute do you think will be superior? Asking seriously.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  I have no answer to that, but if one is forced to go off of on-prem Jira and go into the cloud, it may not follow that people will go to in-cloud Jira. Once an organization is forced to do work, it may be the opportunity re-evaluate things and find something "better" (local or in-cloud) instead of just renewing annually due to inertial.

hirako2000 6y ago

https://github.com/oldboyxx/jira_clone https://github.com/oldboyxx/jira_clone

matthewmuscat 6y ago

Our org uses both Jira Server & Confluence Server - and I’m fairly sure this will make us move away from Atlassian’s products The split between cloud and server offerings is partly to blame here My thoughts go out to the businesses that have built plugins for Jira and had to endure the variances between cloud and server, or worse, only catered for the server market. The group at tempo timesheets[1] particularly come to mind here Thinking ahead - I’m hoping that an org like GitLab (who have got their Saas v On-Prem offerings balance right) is able to keep building on and catering for this space. Their planning features are not there yet, but there’s a great group of people with oodles of traction and a roadmap that aligns with this problem space[2]. [1] www.tempo.up [2] https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan

jeff_redradish 6y ago
Yes, there still is no easy way to migrate Tempo data from Server to Cloud. Their advice is "there's an API - good luck" [1]. Gitlab is great for their developer niche, but the relatively weak issue tracker and wiki lets them down for more general use. Still, Gitlab is a great company with momentum and a roadmap. Feel free to join us [2] in looking at such alternatives. [1] https://tempo-io.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/THC/pages/896958474/Migrating+Tempo+from+Jira+Server+to+Jira+Cloud https://tempo-io.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/THC/pages/8969584... [2] https://www.goodbyeserver.org https://www.goodbyeserver.org
- dnsmichi 6y ago
  Hi, Developer Evangelist at GitLab here. "Relatively weak issue tracker and wiki" got me interested - mind elaborating in more detail what brings you to this conclusion? :) Thanks!
  - ojosilva 6y ago
    Please stop doing this. Fishing for product insight on such broad opinions in an open forum does a disservice for Gitlab the product and the team. If it was a natural question... But this is so canned, every gitlab employee here does it, sounds flaky and impersonal. Almost troll-like, maybe even arrogant tbh. You really don't know why Gitlab is not an issue tracker like Jira is? I'm sure you do, or at least you should know. Being an issue tracker like Jira is not even a bad thing! So why try to look like you think you can be as bad as Jira? /rant (from a Gitlab fan)

matthewmuscat 6y ago

Our org uses both Jira Server & Confluence Server - and I’m fairly sure this will make us move away from Atlassian’s products. The split between cloud and server offerings is partly to blame here. My thoughts go out to the businesses that have built plugins for Jira and had to endure the variances between cloud and server, or worse, only catered for the server market. The group at tempo timesheets[1] particularly come to mind here. Thinking ahead - I’m hoping that an org like GitLab (who have got their Saas v On-Prem offerings balance right) is able to keep building on and catering for this space. Their planning features are not there yet, but there’s a great group of people with oodles of traction and a roadmap that aligns with this problem space[2]. [1] https://www.tempo.io https://www.tempo.io [2] https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan https://about.gitlab.com/direction/maturity/#plan

benhurmarcel 6y ago
> I’m hoping that an org like GitLab is able to keep building on and catering for this space. That's not really an option for organizations whose main product isn't code, no?
- sytse 6y ago
  We (GitLab) have strong planning features but are missing workflow enforcement. GitLab also has a wiki but it is less user friendly than Confluence.
  - Roritharr 6y ago
    What we mainly need is cheap/free non-coding users. I'm really not comfortable paying for a gitlab seat per support staff we hire.
    - dnsmichi 6y ago
      Thanks for the thought, I have forwarded it into an issue discussing a similar topic on issue management for specific groups not counting towards the license limit: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/2105#note_432679575 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/2105#note_4326...

ozim 6y ago

Microsoft is doing the same with Azure DevOps and big orgs with sensitive data are moving there as well. I don't think you can even have Azure DevOps on premise. So Atlassian is doing it because they know there is no competitor that would jump in. Because everyone else also goes that direction.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> I don't think you can even have Azure DevOps on premise. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/devops/server/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/devops/server/ “Previously known as Team Foundation Server (TFS), Azure DevOps Server is a set of collaborative software development tools, hosted on-premises.”
throw0101a 6y ago
> So Atlassian is doing it because they know there is no competitor that would jump in. Because everyone else also goes that direction. New Confluence licenses will no longer be available in 2021 and support ends in 2024 (though it seems the Data Centre version will still be available, but it's expensive). That's potentially 3-4 years lead time to get something going. Either totally on-prem or an either-or option (à lab GitLab).

thu2111 6y ago

It already exists. JetBrains YouTrack has an on-site version with similar features to Jira, and the latest version comes with a wiki feature called Knowledge Base. [1] There's also an automatic import process from Jira [2]. YouTrack has a cloud version now. Unfortunately they used the introduction of this to raise the prices for their self-hosted version. However they do allow migration both to and from the cloud version, and they plan to introduce a self-hosted version of their newest Space product, so it seems JetBrains is more DIY friendly than Atlassian. JB seem like a better company anyway. It's hard to forget Atlassian's decision to stop rewarding employees based on merit, a system they claimed was created by "white men" [3]. The new system rewards employees largely for following the "company values". Under the company values page [4], they claim one of their values is "Don’t #@!% the customer". Interesting way to show it. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/Getting-Started-With-YouTrack.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/Getting-S... [2] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/importing-from-jira.html#jira-integration-prerequisites https://www.jetbrains.com/help/youtrack/standalone/importing... [3] https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/atlassian-ditches-brilliant-jerks-in-performance-review-overhaul/news-story/82a5e2abba1939f51d68ae81db8f05bd https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/atlassian-ditch... [4] https://www.atlassian.com/company/values https://www.atlassian.com/company/values

m463 6y ago

I agree. this is a jump-the-shark move. I've worked with confluence and jira and they are not as good as other products - but we can put any kind of confidential data in them. Everybody likes sharepoint/google docs/slack way better.

wj 6y ago
I feel like SharePoint and Google Docs are fundamentally different products that Confluence. Looking for a Confluence competitor with permissions, version tracking, templates, and search but don't feel like I have found a good alternative.
- m463 6y ago
  I don't think we use version tracking, templates are not really used (but they should be!) and search could be better. We basically use confluence like a wiki, but it's abnormally hard to put info into it.
  - RikNieu 6y ago
    Hard in what way?
    - m463 6y ago
      by spending a lot of time in the confluence editor doing things the confluence way.
      - RikNieu 6y ago
        Yeah, it can definitely feel like a time-suck sometimes. What "confluence way" things would you do differently? And how?
- aisidun 6y ago
  XWiki is the closest thing I've found to Confluence.
6y ago

syshum 6y ago

Microsoft is busy also pretending OnPrem does not exist, They cancelled all of the OnPrem cert programs, and everything is "Cloud First", with Onprem products being treated as second class with price increases to push people to subscriptions

otabdeveloper4 6y ago

Not just "medium-sized". We're really larger than "medium-sized", but we're not the kind of company that can or will force everyone to use Jira. Jira adoption could have happened, but it would only have been possible in a bottom-up, team-by-team basis. And certainly not with a $40000 starting price tag. As it is, yeah, we're planning on migrating off Jira now.