5 ms·

This seems like a perfect example of why labor organization is important. Despite their (as i've seen on this site) extremely good bargaining position, workers

by airza 6y ago

This seems like a perfect example of why labor organization is important. Despite their (as i've seen on this site) extremely good bargaining position, workers in this company lack the collective ability to contest these changes (despite the fact that the value of their labor has not changed whatsoever.)

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Is there a reason to believe organization would make the difference here? Even the best organized unions sometimes get paid less than they'd prefer.
- EduardoBautista 6y ago
  Also, I don’t want other people negotiating for me. Software Engineers are so high in demand that I believe I can do a better job negotiating on my own.
  - airza 6y ago
    This is fine if you want to hop jobs, but why do you think the most in demand engineers on earth are being forced to eat these pay cuts?
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Because they don't want to hop jobs. Walking away from a transaction is the signal to the buyer and seller that there is something wrong with the price. If neither party walks away, then there is nothing wrong with the price.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - creato 6y ago
      Maybe they aren't in quite as high demand as they were a year ago? I would be surprised if there wasn't some softening of the market in the pandemic.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    How would negotiate around Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay colluding[1] with one another to keep engineer compensation below its market value if you were working for one of them? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
- diob 6y ago
  Collective bargaining is a big win for the working class (and yes, that includes tech). Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. Not to mention our healthcare situation. Unfortunately, the scare tactics and propaganda of large corporations have won out in the USA. Folks hate collective bargaining with a passion.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    > Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. What do you mean by this? I mean I guess I get less PTO than other countries, but I get way more pay. I could just take a month of unpaid vacation if I wanted to, and still make more than my European counterparts. Tech also gets great healthcare (unless you work for a startup or something I'd guess). Not disagreeing that unions would probably be a net-positive for tech workers, but saying that tech in the USA gets a worse "benefit package" is pretty dishonest.
    - diob 6y ago
      Parental leave, vacation, healthcare, retirement, are all typically better in other developed countries. I, like you, get paid a heck of a lot more than my friends in those countries, but if something happens to me (say I get caught up in a mass shooting or get cancer like most do) I'm going to be on my own (gofundme?). We're ruggedly individualistic to a fault. Ultimately, I think we agree though, since you're saying it would be a net positive. The options you mentioned (taking unpaid PTO) are possible, but there are many employers who would then see you as unreliable (unless you're top level in terms of skill). I also think it takes a great deal of privilege to say "I can negotiate so who cares". While I agree with you that negotiation is important (it's how I got my current salary), you should think about those who come from poorer / less secure backgrounds. These people often don't want to blow their chance, so they take whatever offer comes their way. It's kind of a "rich get richer" thing, where those with confidence (growing up with a well off family, hence a safety net) are the main ones negotiating. Do not underestimate the importance of a safety net when it comes to negotiating, even for yourself. One thing that keeps me at my 9-5 job is knowing I need healthcare and a place to sleep with electricity (I have a lifelong genetic condition, sleep apnea, which untreated will result in my untimely death). My family is abusive, narcissistic, and unreliable. Being so incredibly on my own, I'm extremely risk averse. I imagine others, who might need insulin or some other thing would be the same. So ultimately, I find the "just negotiate" line to be at best naive, at worst unempathetic.
MuffinFlavored 6y ago
> This seems like a perfect example of why labor organization is important I've just always seen life as "unfair" and "up to you to fight for what is right". A labor organization/union has always struck me as "too good to be true" and unrealistic.
- vkou 6y ago
  You can fight for what you want more effectively when you fight collectively. There also seems to be a popular misconception that unions prevent you from negotiating for yourself. Unions set salary and benefit floors, not ceilings. If you think you are a superstar negotiator, you're free to demand a higher wage than that floor. Actors and football players have unions, yet also have an incredible wage disparity between the top and bottom end of the pay scale.
  - SaltyBackendGuy 6y ago
    What if you're simply not worth as much as you used to be in a given region?
    - elihu 6y ago
      Even in that case, labor organization might help you keep a larger percentage of the value you generate for your employer than you otherwise would.
  - tomjakubowski 6y ago
    Unions representing professional athletes have in some cases agreed to maximum salaries for players (e.g. in the NBA) as a concession, so that isn't always true. Team salary caps negotiated in leagues without a salary max also depress player salaries.
  - belval 6y ago
    Not sure how positive your interactions with unions were to hold this opinion, but that hasn't been my experience at all. - Unions add more politics to an already increasingly political environment. I don't want to spend an hour or more every month in a meeting to vote on stuff I usually don't care about. - Unions cost money, and while 200$/2 weeks (which is what one big union in my country charges) might seem reasonable to you, I don't like being forced to do anything. - Unions usually end up with rules regarding who gets promoted and who doesn't. Broke your back working OT to help out the company? Well tough luck Martha came in one month before you and has priority on promotions. - Unions make it harder to fire under performing employees. While that might fit in your ideal society, I prefer working with overachievers.
SteveMorin 6y ago
Why?
freewilly1040 6y ago
The employees themselves are pretty divided though. Those staying in the high cost metros want to keep their higher salaries, those moving don't want the paycut. In discussions I've seen you can predict what people are doing pretty reliably.
GhostVII 6y ago
We need labour organization to protest being paid only slightly less insane salaries? Honestly people are acting as if they are making minimum wage or something, everyone at these big companies makes over 100k, and most of them probably make well over 200k. That's more than enough.

by airza 6y ago

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

Is there a reason to believe organization would make the difference here? Even the best organized unions sometimes get paid less than they'd prefer.

EduardoBautista 6y ago
Also, I don’t want other people negotiating for me. Software Engineers are so high in demand that I believe I can do a better job negotiating on my own.
- airza 6y ago
  This is fine if you want to hop jobs, but why do you think the most in demand engineers on earth are being forced to eat these pay cuts?
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Because they don't want to hop jobs. Walking away from a transaction is the signal to the buyer and seller that there is something wrong with the price. If neither party walks away, then there is nothing wrong with the price.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - creato 6y ago
    Maybe they aren't in quite as high demand as they were a year ago? I would be surprised if there wasn't some softening of the market in the pandemic.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  How would negotiate around Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay colluding[1] with one another to keep engineer compensation below its market value if you were working for one of them? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
diob 6y ago
Collective bargaining is a big win for the working class (and yes, that includes tech). Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. Not to mention our healthcare situation. Unfortunately, the scare tactics and propaganda of large corporations have won out in the USA. Folks hate collective bargaining with a passion.
- thelean12 6y ago
  > Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. What do you mean by this? I mean I guess I get less PTO than other countries, but I get way more pay. I could just take a month of unpaid vacation if I wanted to, and still make more than my European counterparts. Tech also gets great healthcare (unless you work for a startup or something I'd guess). Not disagreeing that unions would probably be a net-positive for tech workers, but saying that tech in the USA gets a worse "benefit package" is pretty dishonest.
  - diob 6y ago
    Parental leave, vacation, healthcare, retirement, are all typically better in other developed countries. I, like you, get paid a heck of a lot more than my friends in those countries, but if something happens to me (say I get caught up in a mass shooting or get cancer like most do) I'm going to be on my own (gofundme?). We're ruggedly individualistic to a fault. Ultimately, I think we agree though, since you're saying it would be a net positive. The options you mentioned (taking unpaid PTO) are possible, but there are many employers who would then see you as unreliable (unless you're top level in terms of skill). I also think it takes a great deal of privilege to say "I can negotiate so who cares". While I agree with you that negotiation is important (it's how I got my current salary), you should think about those who come from poorer / less secure backgrounds. These people often don't want to blow their chance, so they take whatever offer comes their way. It's kind of a "rich get richer" thing, where those with confidence (growing up with a well off family, hence a safety net) are the main ones negotiating. Do not underestimate the importance of a safety net when it comes to negotiating, even for yourself. One thing that keeps me at my 9-5 job is knowing I need healthcare and a place to sleep with electricity (I have a lifelong genetic condition, sleep apnea, which untreated will result in my untimely death). My family is abusive, narcissistic, and unreliable. Being so incredibly on my own, I'm extremely risk averse. I imagine others, who might need insulin or some other thing would be the same. So ultimately, I find the "just negotiate" line to be at best naive, at worst unempathetic.

MuffinFlavored 6y ago

> This seems like a perfect example of why labor organization is important I've just always seen life as "unfair" and "up to you to fight for what is right". A labor organization/union has always struck me as "too good to be true" and unrealistic.

vkou 6y ago
You can fight for what you want more effectively when you fight collectively. There also seems to be a popular misconception that unions prevent you from negotiating for yourself. Unions set salary and benefit floors, not ceilings. If you think you are a superstar negotiator, you're free to demand a higher wage than that floor. Actors and football players have unions, yet also have an incredible wage disparity between the top and bottom end of the pay scale.
- SaltyBackendGuy 6y ago
  What if you're simply not worth as much as you used to be in a given region?
  - elihu 6y ago
    Even in that case, labor organization might help you keep a larger percentage of the value you generate for your employer than you otherwise would.
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  Unions representing professional athletes have in some cases agreed to maximum salaries for players (e.g. in the NBA) as a concession, so that isn't always true. Team salary caps negotiated in leagues without a salary max also depress player salaries.
- belval 6y ago
  Not sure how positive your interactions with unions were to hold this opinion, but that hasn't been my experience at all. - Unions add more politics to an already increasingly political environment. I don't want to spend an hour or more every month in a meeting to vote on stuff I usually don't care about. - Unions cost money, and while 200$/2 weeks (which is what one big union in my country charges) might seem reasonable to you, I don't like being forced to do anything. - Unions usually end up with rules regarding who gets promoted and who doesn't. Broke your back working OT to help out the company? Well tough luck Martha came in one month before you and has priority on promotions. - Unions make it harder to fire under performing employees. While that might fit in your ideal society, I prefer working with overachievers.

SteveMorin 6y ago

Why?

freewilly1040 6y ago

The employees themselves are pretty divided though. Those staying in the high cost metros want to keep their higher salaries, those moving don't want the paycut. In discussions I've seen you can predict what people are doing pretty reliably.

GhostVII 6y ago

We need labour organization to protest being paid only slightly less insane salaries? Honestly people are acting as if they are making minimum wage or something, everyone at these big companies makes over 100k, and most of them probably make well over 200k. That's more than enough.